THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Noblis01 wrote: »

Because some people can't control their "baser nature" a global auction house WOULD BE (not could be)
corrupted by exploiters.
Now, the bots just run around nabbing mats. Next, they will be buying up all of the stacks of X, then setting
a ridiculous price.
The new players will not be able to afford the basic items that they need to play.
People will quit the game because they can't play/stay alive.
Then the human sacrifices. Dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria !

But really, I've played 5 MMOs and all 5 had global auction houses. All of those games also had toons selling
items in chat non stop. It was common for those toons to get banned and then steal a player's account to bark
more "deals" in zone chat. Or tell you the URL of a company to buy stuff with real money.

Does anyone really want to pay 5ooo gold for just one Cornflower?
The current system is truly a free market system.

I played other mmos too and selling in chat is already a thing here. No one is stealing accounts from them, and bots is a totally differnt subject and was already dealt with here. Limited on a future AH were already proposed. So none of that would happen. Most of what's in those statements isn't realistic. Prices in AH games for common consumables is perfectly affordable. With the limits in place here, the prices will be very competive which is good for everyone except the current system abusers.

Sigh ... except that they wouldn’t. I truly enjoy your seeming good nature. I wish everyone else was that way, but it’s unrealistic. Some ESO billionaire would buy up everything they deem valuable and re-list it for whatever they wanted.

The current system abusers would have the capital to be at the top of that list.

With buying limits you’d just need some coordination (like now) but regardless the whole point is that no person or group of people should be able to do this at the push of one button.

You missed something multiple times in the thread. We already proposed limits. It would be nearly impossible to corner the market on any one item at any one time. That's bad for the current abusers but good for everyone else. They'll still be able to earn plenty of money, just not in a shady way. We already put an example of how a ten man team still couldn't do it.

It gets less realistic with no trade guilds around. For there to be many more than 10 without some kind of infighting occurring or other people finding out about it first isn't very realistic. In the real world anything is possible true, but still some things are just less and less likely than others.

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Noblis01 wrote: »

Because some people can't control their "baser nature" a global auction house WOULD BE (not could be)
corrupted by exploiters.
Now, the bots just run around nabbing mats. Next, they will be buying up all of the stacks of X, then setting
a ridiculous price.
The new players will not be able to afford the basic items that they need to play.
People will quit the game because they can't play/stay alive.
Then the human sacrifices. Dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria !

But really, I've played 5 MMOs and all 5 had global auction houses. All of those games also had toons selling
items in chat non stop. It was common for those toons to get banned and then steal a player's account to bark
more "deals" in zone chat. Or tell you the URL of a company to buy stuff with real money.

Does anyone really want to pay 5ooo gold for just one Cornflower?
The current system is truly a free market system.

I played other mmos too and selling in chat is already a thing here. No one is stealing accounts from them, and bots is a totally differnt subject and was already dealt with here. Limited on a future AH were already proposed. So none of that would happen. Most of what's in those statements isn't realistic. Prices in AH games for common consumables is perfectly affordable. With the limits in place here, the prices will be very competive which is good for everyone except the current system abusers.

Sigh ... except that they wouldn’t. I truly enjoy your seeming good nature. I wish everyone else was that way, but it’s unrealistic. Some ESO billionaire would buy up everything they deem valuable and re-list it for whatever they wanted.

The current system abusers would have the capital to be at the top of that list.

With buying limits you’d just need some coordination (like now) but regardless the whole point is that no person or group of people should be able to do this at the push of one button.

You missed something multiple times in the thread. We already proposed limits. It would be nearly impossible to corner the market on any one item at any one time. That's bad for the current abusers but good for everyone else. They'll still be able to earn plenty of money, just not in a shady way. We already put an example of how a ten man team still couldn't do it.

Haha, no, I actually was the original supporter of the idea. I just thought it through.

Realistically you can make a legit case where your ESO “business” would need 10,000 ingots a day for crafting. I sure wouldn’t but a case can be made. That’s 50 stacks of whatever. If that was the limit it would likely still only require 10 people to buy out a server but it could certainly be done by 100, and guilds have 500 slots.

How long do you think it would take 1 well organized guild to coordinate a massive buy out? Literally just one guild meeting.

My trade guild has 50 million just in the guild bank. I’ve never spoken to the leader but I suspect that they have a billion plus in theirs. That person alone could bankroll this move. It’s what happens in “pump and dump” schemes in crypto markets and the most popular crypto app has a limit on buying more than X amount a day. People get around it with the internet.

All you need to do is coordinate like minded people’s watches and BAM! There goes those imposed limits. We aren’t talking about coordinating a government coup or something else people wouldn’t easily support because of ramifications. We’re talking about coordinating people to cheese a video game for fake money that no one I’ll get arrested for. It would happen, and it would happen more quickly than you think.

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Noblis01 wrote: »

Because some people can't control their "baser nature" a global auction house WOULD BE (not could be)
corrupted by exploiters.
Now, the bots just run around nabbing mats. Next, they will be buying up all of the stacks of X, then setting
a ridiculous price.
The new players will not be able to afford the basic items that they need to play.
People will quit the game because they can't play/stay alive.
Then the human sacrifices. Dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria !

But really, I've played 5 MMOs and all 5 had global auction houses. All of those games also had toons selling
items in chat non stop. It was common for those toons to get banned and then steal a player's account to bark
more "deals" in zone chat. Or tell you the URL of a company to buy stuff with real money.

Does anyone really want to pay 5ooo gold for just one Cornflower?
The current system is truly a free market system.

I played other mmos too and selling in chat is already a thing here. No one is stealing accounts from them, and bots is a totally differnt subject and was already dealt with here. Limited on a future AH were already proposed. So none of that would happen. Most of what's in those statements isn't realistic. Prices in AH games for common consumables is perfectly affordable. With the limits in place here, the prices will be very competive which is good for everyone except the current system abusers.

Sigh ... except that they wouldn’t. I truly enjoy your seeming good nature. I wish everyone else was that way, but it’s unrealistic. Some ESO billionaire would buy up everything they deem valuable and re-list it for whatever they wanted.

The current system abusers would have the capital to be at the top of that list.

With buying limits you’d just need some coordination (like now) but regardless the whole point is that no person or group of people should be able to do this at the push of one button.

You missed something multiple times in the thread. We already proposed limits. It would be nearly impossible to corner the market on any one item at any one time. That's bad for the current abusers but good for everyone else. They'll still be able to earn plenty of money, just not in a shady way. We already put an example of how a ten man team still couldn't do it.

Haha, no, I actually was the original supporter of the idea. I just thought it through.

Realistically you can make a legit case where your ESO “business” would need 10,000 ingots a day for crafting. I sure wouldn’t but a case can be made. That’s 50 stacks of whatever. If that was the limit it would likely still only require 10 people to buy out a server but it could certainly be done by 100, and guilds have 500 slots.

How long do you think it would take 1 well organized guild to coordinate a massive buy out? Literally just one guild meeting.

My trade guild has 50 million just in the guild bank. I’ve never spoken to the leader but I suspect that they have a billion plus in theirs. That person alone could bankroll this move. It’s what happens in “pump and dump” schemes in crypto markets and the most popular crypto app has a limit on buying more than X amount a day. People get around it with the internet.

All you need to do is coordinate like minded people’s watches and BAM! There goes those imposed limits. We aren’t talking about coordinating a government coup or something else people wouldn’t easily support because of ramifications. We’re talking about coordinating people to cheese a video game for fake money that no one I’ll get arrested for. It would happen, and it would happen more quickly than you think.

Yes I know, but to answer, actually no. Anyone can try to make any case they want. ZOS isn't going to pick the highball outlaying numbers. They may have some issues to fix, but they aren't stupid. They, as I said earlier, would pick something more reasonable and fair. No one person needs 10k dreux wax in any single day. Anyone saying that would just be ripping on the chain for ripping on the chain's sake. An entire game value wouldn't be set for those few people(most likely from the current abusers anyway) regardless. That is one of the things a developer learns to take into consideration over time. Eventually, they start thinking, and themselves, "how can people abuse this system?" The current system was abused because there were to many factors playing at once and some things were overlooked. They'll be a bit more vigilant next time especially if the fforums help them a bit with suggestions.

Royaji wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Noblis01 wrote: »

Because some people can't control their "baser nature" a global auction house WOULD BE (not could be)
corrupted by exploiters.
Now, the bots just run around nabbing mats. Next, they will be buying up all of the stacks of X, then setting
a ridiculous price.
The new players will not be able to afford the basic items that they need to play.
People will quit the game because they can't play/stay alive.
Then the human sacrifices. Dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria !

But really, I've played 5 MMOs and all 5 had global auction houses. All of those games also had toons selling
items in chat non stop. It was common for those toons to get banned and then steal a player's account to bark
more "deals" in zone chat. Or tell you the URL of a company to buy stuff with real money.

Does anyone really want to pay 5ooo gold for just one Cornflower?
The current system is truly a free market system.

I played other mmos too and selling in chat is already a thing here. No one is stealing accounts from them, and bots is a totally differnt subject and was already dealt with here. Limited on a future AH were already proposed. So none of that would happen. Most of what's in those statements isn't realistic. Prices in AH games for common consumables is perfectly affordable. With the limits in place here, the prices will be very competive which is good for everyone except the current system abusers.

Sigh ... except that they wouldn’t. I truly enjoy your seeming good nature. I wish everyone else was that way, but it’s unrealistic. Some ESO billionaire would buy up everything they deem valuable and re-list it for whatever they wanted.

The current system abusers would have the capital to be at the top of that list.

With buying limits you’d just need some coordination (like now) but regardless the whole point is that no person or group of people should be able to do this at the push of one button.

You missed something multiple times in the thread. We already proposed limits. It would be nearly impossible to corner the market on any one item at any one time. That's bad for the current abusers but good for everyone else. They'll still be able to earn plenty of money, just not in a shady way. We already put an example of how a ten man team still couldn't do it.

It get less realistic with no trade guilds around for there to be many more than that without some kind of infighting occurring or other people finding out about it first.

Items like Spell Strategist infernos have maybe 20 listings on the market. You absolutely can corner it.

Then people would stop buying them. Price something too high and people would farm it themselves.

I would still ask if any of you who are so opposed to a global auction house have ever significantly worked with one in the past. (Not just brief interactions.)

The items are effectively locked out now since it is so hard to find where they are or what a reasonable price is.

Raising a bogyman is not a strong argument.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Noblis01 wrote: »

Because some people can't control their "baser nature" a global auction house WOULD BE (not could be)
corrupted by exploiters.
Now, the bots just run around nabbing mats. Next, they will be buying up all of the stacks of X, then setting
a ridiculous price.
The new players will not be able to afford the basic items that they need to play.
People will quit the game because they can't play/stay alive.
Then the human sacrifices. Dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria !

But really, I've played 5 MMOs and all 5 had global auction houses. All of those games also had toons selling
items in chat non stop. It was common for those toons to get banned and then steal a player's account to bark
more "deals" in zone chat. Or tell you the URL of a company to buy stuff with real money.

Does anyone really want to pay 5ooo gold for just one Cornflower?
The current system is truly a free market system.

I played other mmos too and selling in chat is already a thing here. No one is stealing accounts from them, and bots is a totally differnt subject and was already dealt with here. Limited on a future AH were already proposed. So none of that would happen. Most of what's in those statements isn't realistic. Prices in AH games for common consumables is perfectly affordable. With the limits in place here, the prices will be very competive which is good for everyone except the current system abusers.

Sigh ... except that they wouldn’t. I truly enjoy your seeming good nature. I wish everyone else was that way, but it’s unrealistic. Some ESO billionaire would buy up everything they deem valuable and re-list it for whatever they wanted.

The current system abusers would have the capital to be at the top of that list.

With buying limits you’d just need some coordination (like now) but regardless the whole point is that no person or group of people should be able to do this at the push of one button.

You missed something multiple times in the thread. We already proposed limits. It would be nearly impossible to corner the market on any one item at any one time. That's bad for the current abusers but good for everyone else. They'll still be able to earn plenty of money, just not in a shady way. We already put an example of how a ten man team still couldn't do it.

It get less realistic with no trade guilds around for there to be many more than that without some kind of infighting occurring or other people finding out about it first.

Items like Spell Strategist infernos have maybe 20 listings on the market. You absolutely can corner it.

Then people would stop buying them. Price something too high and people would farm it themselves.

I would still ask if any of you who are so opposed to a global auction house have ever significantly worked with one in the past. (Not just brief interactions.)

The items are effectively locked out now since it is so hard to find where they are or what a reasonable price is.

Raising a bogyman is not a strong argument.

I’ve been playing games with GAH’s since the advent up EA’s Ultimate Team in 2009. I’ve bought nearly every copy of that, Madden, NHL, 2k’s NBA and most recently I bought a PS4 just for their Diamond Dynasty mode which is essentially the same thing.

All of them had GAHs. All of them are console games. I’ve also played Neverwinter (yuck) which has one as well. That’s 6 titles and roughly 30 to 50 various GAHs ON CONSOLE that I have invested time and way too much money into. In each they all follow the same pattern.

I have no reason to believe that the behavior in ESO on console would be any different.

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Why not have a few more kiosks so those who don't have either guilds or a guild with a trader able to post things?

Also, could tnis game even handle an AH? I think any system, including the one we have now would be buggy.

Needing that kind of workaround shows that the current system has huge flaws.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

I feel that discussions of whether to have a global AH are actually just smoke and mirrors for the fact that we actually do have and want one. How do I know this?

(1) Do you use TTC as a pricing guide?
(2) Do you shop via the TTC website so you don't have to run around to every store?

It is my perception that as soon as people are told TTC exists, they get it for the sheer convenience.
People want a global market for the features that TTC offer: Price guidance, and one-stop shopping.

If you are genuinely against a global AH, I challenge you to completely turn off TTC, MM, and all other market-helping Add Ons. And asking for price checks is also cheating because you are basically doing it through someone else.

What we want to discuss is what to do with all the in-game guild store sites and vendors if we shift to a Global AH.

If you want something really interesting -- How about multiplying sales slots by 5 or 10. BUT you can ONLY sell to your guild mates via the guild store interface.

(1) no. and if you are, you are only fooling yourself.
(2) no and yes. Usually no. But TTC may have a purpose for specialty items of low volume if they are not underpriced (if underpriced they'll be bought in an instant). You may find it on the TTC and then you know where to get, and you wont mind paying proper cost for it because it's low volume, meaning you dont know when/if it's come for sale again.

I do hop around to every store, and I do find good deals now and then, sometimes 5-15% under average prices also for high volume items (compared to the average sell prices in my guilds).

Urigall wrote: »

What's the motivation for some of the individuals who want to hog the top spots? The "income" from trading is worth zip in r/l, yet some guilds seem to expend a lot of effort, and in game gold, so they can hog the best spots. If the only benefit of keeping a top spot is...well...being recognised as a top trader, I can't suss out the motivation.

I suppose some guilds accumulate a bit of gold that they can then deploy for in game items. Say, a top tier guild house, attuned, crafting stations, dummies and so on. But most of the top guilds probably have houses that are pretty well kitted out already.

Very puzzling.

Another, possibly dumb, question. Two actually. One, in a global AH set up, presumably no-one within the player community receives any remuneration except the vendor? Two, any listing fees on the part of the vendor simply vanish, post sale or withdrawal of the listing?

Why do people want to excel and become number one? I think this is self explanatory.

Well, considering that apparently the game not even able to handle the individual guild histories, how it would cope with the global history of an AH?

With a GAH trading guilds will just change focus and not disappear. Consider this. What do all of the trade guilds do with their resources currently? Their focus is on mostly securing their spot. The gold they spend is then removed from the game. There are guilds that fight for each spot so it is very competitive. So where do those resources, gold and efforts get redirected with a GAH? One to two people may not be able to control the market but a group of 200 could. And it could potentially get to the point where you have to be in a guild to buy certain items

Also what would be the replacement gold sink. We pay listing fees currently and I can say that the amount of gold sunk by traders wont be covered unless you significantly increase the listing fees or have another sink.

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

With a GAH trading guilds will just change focus and not disappear. Consider this. What do all of the trade guilds do with their resources currently? Their focus is on mostly securing their spot. The gold they spend is then removed from the game. There are guilds that fight for each spot so it is very competitive. So where do those resources, gold and efforts get redirected with a GAH? One to two people may not be able to control the market but a group of 200 could. And it could potentially get to the point where you have to be in a guild to buy certain items

Also what would be the replacement gold sink. We pay listing fees currently and I can say that the amount of gold sunk by traders wont be covered unless you significantly increase the listing fees or have another sink.

The replacement gold sink could be what was mentioned in this thread at some point. Mounts, pets, cosmetics,............ a variety of things that should've already been there, but ended up in the crown store. We should have dozens of mounts available for gold. Sure trade guilds will change focus. Some will try to to stay trade guilds, but will eventually adapt to the new system, and take on another focus. By nature, we adapt as humans. We don't like changes at first, but we do adapt.

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

I went for option 3. I like that we have a different system for ESO than the usual AH which gets taken over by bots and addons but a global search function would be great to find stuff and will cut out some of the shady stuff trade guilds get up to to secure prime npcs but the guilds would still exist.

Option 3 was proposed within the thread, an adjusted AH. Basically, an AH with limits which eliminate most of the negativity within the current system. ZOS has been vigilant with bots. Bots wouldn't be able to circumvent the limits, which would be in place regardless. The point is ZOS can create a whole new level of AH customized to benefit the players in every way. So the experience is more fun for everyone, and not just a cartel of traders. I'm sure a new function for the current trade vendors can be found. Maybe something that doesn't even involve trading at all. Plenty of people are here in the forums to help figure it all out.

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

With a GAH trading guilds will just change focus and not disappear. Consider this. What do all of the trade guilds do with their resources currently? Their focus is on mostly securing their spot. The gold they spend is then removed from the game. There are guilds that fight for each spot so it is very competitive. So where do those resources, gold and efforts get redirected with a GAH? One to two people may not be able to control the market but a group of 200 could. And it could potentially get to the point where you have to be in a guild to buy certain items

Also what would be the replacement gold sink. We pay listing fees currently and I can say that the amount of gold sunk by traders wont be covered unless you significantly increase the listing fees or have another sink.

The replacement gold sink could be what was mentioned in this thread at some point. Mounts, pets, cosmetics,............ a variety of things that should've already been there, but ended up in the crown store. We should have dozens of mounts available for gold. Sure trade guilds will change focus. Some will try to to stay trade guilds, but will eventually adapt to the new system, and take on another focus. By nature, we adapt as humans. We don't like changes at first, but we do adapt.

Ironic that ESO has a functioning economy that is different than all other MMOs yet you’re trying to argue that changing ESO’s economy to one that is essentially the same as everyone else’s would somehow constitute change.

Sounds to me that it’s probably you that needs to adapt to the world that has changed around you.

I wouldn't say a corrupt, inconvenient economy is truly functioning for everyone. People have been complaining about the trader system since shortly after it began. Someone in the thread mentioned other games have similar economies. For example, (mentioned within this thread)another game which was similar to ESO's trading vendor, but they use supplies instead of gold to fund it. This isn't a completely one of a kind deal. I didn't suggest an AH. I suggested an adjusted AH, a better version of what exists currently in some other games with limits to eliminate the current and many forms of corruption that occur in trading systems. Only a player abusing the current system wouldn't want a system free of corruption.

nice bait. How didn't I adapt?
DO you know me? No.
DO you know what I earn per day? NO right?

So explain how I need to adapt. Proposing a better system doesn't mean I didn't adapt. I've been here since Beta. Hang on I'll go get my popcorn while you try to answer that.Btw, this isn't personal. It's a set of valid questions.

They complained because it was different. People don't like change, so they want to change it to how they imagine it to be in other games. The same can be said of the people who like the system as it currently is, People don't like change. They've adapted to it.

As for the "adjusted AH", I do writs on 36 characters a day... you can be assured that I go out and buy more than 100 stacks of materials at a time, so that I have enough to do them. Daily/Weekly limits would only make it more difficult on me to do what I would like to do. Who is going to determine the "optimal" amount that can be bought for each and every item in the game? That is an unreasonable request, too much time and effort, with no way of determining a reasonable amount. What is good for a person with 1 character is certainly not good for somebody with 36.

People would still be able to get around those artificial limits, whether it's from coordination with guild mates, the creating of alternate accounts that can be used to do the same. There is absolutely no way to "fix" the problem of price fixing by adding in these limits. Under the current system there is a time constraint that limits a person, or group of people from doing this, not saying it can't be done, but it's more difficult with the current arrangement.

Others have brought up the issue of searching all those listings. ESO's "megaserver" is larger than all other MMOs, who split their player base into smaller groupings, so they aren't looking at as many listings. The guild stores already run like crap just looking at one high volume kiosk, multiply that by 50 to account for all of them... sounds terrible.

Yes, ZoS can change their mind, but they have directly stated that they like the current system, they designed the system to not be the same as other games (because ESO is a different MMO than other games). It's worked, the game doesn't have rampant inflation, it doesn't have massive price fixing. Yes, some very, very rare items, where there might be less than 10 for sale in all of Tamriel, have had their markets "cornered", but the staple items in the game, it is very, very difficult to do so, which is why they've remained remarkably stable over the last 5 years.

TTC is atrocious. 90% of the time the item isn't even there anymore. I think people put WAAAAAAAY too much stock in how much TTC affects the economy on PC ESO.

MM is only as good as the guilds that you're in (well... it's worthless right now until ZoS corrects the issues they have there), yet some people treat MM as a bible.

The gold sink has to be there. You honestly believe that ZoS is going to take things OUT of the crown store... lol

I sell a lot of stuff, I'm in 3 large trading guilds. I had to learn what sells in some guilds over the others, it's interesting to see the differences. It's nuanced, it takes a little bit of thinking. I don't do the flip game (unless, while shopping, I see something that is massively underpriced, like the time I got 200 corn flower for 1800 gold ).

(These are not just directed at the quoted post, just a summary of what I've read over the past 3 pages catching up)