Baiting and bashing

daemonios · June 2019

I was driven to make this post due to the locking of a thread concerning a recent study posted on arXiv concerning microtransactions, and random loot boxes in particular.

The original post was factual, it linked to the study, and it had direct applicability and relevance to ESO. The author did take a position against loot boxes, but it was a reasoned position, with which you may or not agree. The thread was closed due to it being considered in violation of the bashing and baiting rules of the ESO forums.

Out of curiosity, I looked up those rules, which read as follows:

Bashing and Slanderous Comments: We do not permit the bashing of individuals (including ZeniMax employees), groups, or other companies on our forums. We believe that doing so is neither constructive nor in spirit of our game and community.
(...)
Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.

The thread in question was, as I said, factual and linked to a source. The issue may be divisive, but I don't believe the forum rules prevent opinion sharing. There was no trolling or troll baiting that I could see in the original. At most, some of the replies were callous.

I was sad to see the thread closed on such flimsy grounds. Microtransactions have been discussed before, I have often taken part in the discussion, and I have often subscribed to the understanding that microtransactions, and loot boxes in particular, are deceptive and exploitative. Vut this is the first time I see this reaction from moderation against an entire thread. For future reference and guidance, could someone detail in what way the thread violated the rules quoted above?

IzzyStardust · June 2019

daemonios wrote: »

I was driven to make this post due to the locking of a thread concerning a recent study posted on arXiv concerning microtransactions, and random loot boxes in particular.

The original post was factual, it linked to the study, and it had direct applicability and relevance to ESO. The author did take a position against loot boxes, but it was a reasoned position, with which you may or not agree. The thread was closed due to it being considered in violation of the bashing and baiting rules of the ESO forums.

Out of curiosity, I looked up those rules, which read as follows:

Bashing and Slanderous Comments: We do not permit the bashing of individuals (including ZeniMax employees), groups, or other companies on our forums. We believe that doing so is neither constructive nor in spirit of our game and community.
(...)
Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.

The thread in question was, as I said, factual and linked to a source. The issue may be divisive, but I don't believe the forum rules prevent opinion sharing. There was no trolling or troll baiting that I could see in the original. At most, some of the replies were callous.

I was sad to see the thread closed on such flimsy grounds. Microtransactions have been discussed before, I have often taken part in the discussion, and I have often subscribed to the understanding that microtransactions, and loot boxes in particular, are deceptive and exploitative. Vut this is the first time I see this reaction from moderation against an entire thread. For future reference and guidance, could someone detail in what way the thread violated the rules quoted above?

Guarantee it was because you likely were reported several times - those modbots seem to only care when that’s the case.

daemonios · June 2019

IzzyStardust wrote: »

Guarantee it was because you likely were reported several times - those modbots seem to only care when that’s the case.

Thanks for the input, but I didn't write the thread I mention in my post here

I was simply reacting to it being locked down so quickly, since it's rare enough to see discussions grounded on actual studies rather than the authors' personal opinion. And because I feel strongly about microtransactions and have previously given my opinion in no gentle terms, with no similar consequence.

DocFrost72 · June 2019

Firstly, discussing moderator action is against the forum rules.

Secondly,

"trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction"

"Crown crates take advantage of addicts" is certainly capable of negative AND strong emotional response. You may disagree, but it is perfectly reasonable.

@ZOS_BillE @ZOS_JesC

Royaji · June 2019

This is going to be locked soon for violation of another forum rule.

But it is important to remember that moderators close threads as a whole and not specifically based on the first post. If the discussion under the thread derails into yelling and trolling they will close the whole thing.

Typos

daemonios · June 2019

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Firstly, discussing moderator action is against the forum rules.

Secondly,

"trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction"

"Crown crates take advantage of addicts" is certainly capable of negative AND strong emotional response. You may disagree, but it is perfectly reasonable.

@ZOS_BillE @ZOS_JesC

I've said a number of times before that "Crown crates take advantage of addicts". I've said more than that - I've said that all microtransactions are deceptive by design, they take away any relationship between the developer's costs and their income by selling virtual items at zero marginal cost, and they employ widely know tactics to promote spending, including time limited exclusives and the intermediation of virtual currencies to separate in-game purchases from their actual monetary value.

Many people have said these things before. The OP in the referenced thread linked to a study to support their opinion. I'm not discussing the concrete action taken, nor asking the thread be reopened. I'm asking for clarification on baiting and bashing, since I don't see how those rules were broken.

TequilaFire · June 2019

OP you should have asked the question to the mod in a PM and I am sure he would have explained his reasons.

ArenGesus · June 2019

I don't see how those rules were broken.

I agree. I read the thread and it wasn't an unreasonable discussion, nor was it anywhere near as contentious as any random nerf X thread. It was basically, "I think loot boxes are bad. Here is a study. This game has loot boxes, making this discussion and study relevant here."

Some people agreed. Some didn't care. It's a healthy discussion topic that wasn't off the rails. I can't see any reason to lock it after reading through the entire thing, so it does bring into question the rules themselves and how they're interpreted.

theyancey · June 2019

Enjoy whatever game you are headed off to play. Don't forget to delete your forum account on your way out.

essi2 · June 2019

Royaji wrote: »

This is going to be locked soon for violation of another forum rule.

But it is important to remember that moderators close threads as a whole and not specifically based on the first post. If the discussion under the thread derails into yelling and trolling they will close the whole thing.

Typos

They also often just remove the offending posts, in fact that is the standard moderator response if the OP isn't the offending post and there is real discussion going on.

I'm very disappointed ZOS decided to lock the entire thread shutting down discussion on an important subject that impacts the game and its players.

Salvas_Aren · June 2019

Well, I asked a person who is smarter than me about this. Had a problem with moderators prohibiting conflicts and permitting discussion, since IMO discussion is based on conflict.

Well, the answer was simple and brilliant: Conflict is based on feelings, while discussion/discord is based on facts. Ofc both can touch both bases, but there is a significant bias.

So, the question is: Did your topic have more potential for the former or the latter?

Aurie · June 2019

How the rules are interpreted seems to be up to the individual moderator.

Unfortunately there are so many rules that writing anything in this forum can be a veritable minefield. I do think that the moderators are becoming more aggressive concerning closing down threads, deleting posts, and sanctions against people they perceive to be violating forum rules.

Whilst I concede the desirability of having sensible moderation to keep the forum a relatively civilized place, I also feel that freedom of speech is slowly being eroded. Given that we are all supposed to be adults here, this is not necessarily a good thing.

SidraWillowsky · June 2019

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

So, the question is: Did your topic have more potential for the former or the latter?

If the forums were full of individuals who could behave like reasonable adults most of the time, I'd say the latter. Alas, I continue to vastly overestimate the maturity levels of the forum general population.

Though this ^ is likely baiting and bashing, so.

Ackwalan · June 2019

You might as well outlaw everything because someone in the world has a problem with it. So go ahead and turn off all things and sit in the dark until the world ends.

Mintaka5 · June 2019

Intent needs to be proven! ZOS cannot not take the role of judging the intent of a conversation's context. I for one have been accused many times over for trolling, when 90% of the time my intent was NOT to create conflict but get answers. If ZOS wants to partake in censoring its players based on interpretation, I got a lawyer or two I can put on retainer the next time I get banned from content or forums for unfounded intent to create conflict.

erlewine · June 2019

the term "trolling" is one of those useful catch-all terms that really just mean "stuff i dont like"

anyway its obvious crates take advantage of addicts youd have to be delusional to think otherwise. but MMOs in general take advantage of addicts. this is america and addicts are free to be taken advantage of. besides, there's no putting the microtransaction genie back in the bottle at this point

srfrogg23 · June 2019

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Firstly, discussing moderator action is against the forum rules.

Secondly,

"trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction"

"Crown crates take advantage of addicts" is certainly capable of negative AND strong emotional response. You may disagree, but it is perfectly reasonable.

@ZOS_BillE @ZOS_JesC

It's also true.

Glurin · June 2019

DocFrost72 wrote: »

"trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction"

The list of things that don't do that is growing very, very short these days. Someone in the thread in question mentioned empathy. They meant it as a jab against those considered to be defending loot boxes, but it was mentioned.

Empathy is a bad thing. You want a bit of sympathy, but empathy is the fuel driving the SJW wildfire that is destroying public discourse and reasoned debate.

srfrogg23 · June 2019

Glurin wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

"trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction"

The list of things that don't do that is growing very, very short these days. Someone in the thread in question mentioned empathy. They meant it as a jab against those considered to be defending loot boxes, but it was mentioned.

Empathy is a bad thing. You want a bit of sympathy, but empathy is the fuel driving the SJW wildfire that is destroying public discourse and reasoned debate.

I wouldn't go that far. Empathy is just the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, so to speak. You empathize with people all the time, you probably just don't realize you're doing it.

idk · June 2019

Just FYI. Mods tend to close threads that talk about forum moderation. It’s suggested you send them a PM if you have any questions.

Cazzy · June 2019

daemonios wrote: »

I was driven to make this post due to the locking of a thread concerning a recent study posted on arXiv concerning microtransactions, and random loot boxes in particular.

The original post was factual, it linked to the study, and it had direct applicability and relevance to ESO. The author did take a position against loot boxes, but it was a reasoned position, with which you may or not agree. The thread was closed due to it being considered in violation of the bashing and baiting rules of the ESO forums.

Out of curiosity, I looked up those rules, which read as follows:

Bashing and Slanderous Comments: We do not permit the bashing of individuals (including ZeniMax employees), groups, or other companies on our forums. We believe that doing so is neither constructive nor in spirit of our game and community.
(...)
Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.

The thread in question was, as I said, factual and linked to a source. The issue may be divisive, but I don't believe the forum rules prevent opinion sharing. There was no trolling or troll baiting that I could see in the original. At most, some of the replies were callous.

I was sad to see the thread closed on such flimsy grounds. Microtransactions have been discussed before, I have often taken part in the discussion, and I have often subscribed to the understanding that microtransactions, and loot boxes in particular, are deceptive and exploitative. Vut this is the first time I see this reaction from moderation against an entire thread. For future reference and guidance, could someone detail in what way the thread violated the rules quoted above?

Yeah, I saw that and wondered what specifically was "baiting" or/and "bashing". Sadly, this thread may be locked too as it's discussing moderators decisions. I hope they decide to re-open the initial thread though. There didn't seem to be any rules broken as far as I could see...

jircris11 · June 2019

daemonios wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Firstly, discussing moderator action is against the forum rules.

Secondly,

"trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction"

"Crown crates take advantage of addicts" is certainly capable of negative AND strong emotional response. You may disagree, but it is perfectly reasonable.

@ZOS_BillE @ZOS_JesC

I've said a number of times before that "Crown crates take advantage of addicts". I've said more than that - I've said that all microtransactions are deceptive by design, they take away any relationship between the developer's costs and their income by selling virtual items at zero marginal cost, and they employ widely know tactics to promote spending, including time limited exclusives and the intermediation of virtual currencies to separate in-game purchases from their actual monetary value.

Many people have said these things before. The OP in the referenced thread linked to a study to support their opinion. I'm not discussing the concrete action taken, nor asking the thread be reopened. I'm asking for clarification on baiting and bashing, since I don't see how those rules were broken.

Technecly majority of life takes advantage of addictions and insecurities. If you cant control you actions then do not participate in it. I am addicted to gambling yet I have no issue keeping away from rng boxes.

Cazzy · June 2019

jircris11 wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Firstly, discussing moderator action is against the forum rules.

Secondly,

"trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction"

"Crown crates take advantage of addicts" is certainly capable of negative AND strong emotional response. You may disagree, but it is perfectly reasonable.

@ZOS_BillE @ZOS_JesC

I've said a number of times before that "Crown crates take advantage of addicts". I've said more than that - I've said that all microtransactions are deceptive by design, they take away any relationship between the developer's costs and their income by selling virtual items at zero marginal cost, and they employ widely know tactics to promote spending, including time limited exclusives and the intermediation of virtual currencies to separate in-game purchases from their actual monetary value.

Many people have said these things before. The OP in the referenced thread linked to a study to support their opinion. I'm not discussing the concrete action taken, nor asking the thread be reopened. I'm asking for clarification on baiting and bashing, since I don't see how those rules were broken.

Technecly majority of life takes advantage of addictions and insecurities. If you cant control you actions then do not participate in it. I am addicted to gambling yet I have no issue keeping away from rng boxes.

Again, the thread was discussing the research found, not the actions of others. It opened a key debate into what is considered gambling and what actions could be taken to safeguard those with addictions. It was incredibly interesting and most people were discussing it in a civil manner.

grim_tactics · June 2019

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Firstly, discussing moderator action is against the forum rules.

Secondly,

"trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction"

"Crown crates take advantage of addicts" is certainly capable of negative AND strong emotional response. You may disagree, but it is perfectly reasonable.

@ZOS_BillE @ZOS_JesC

Are you a Mod or just a tattletale?

The OP made a good point. Get the MODs to say why they removed something that did not break the forum rules.

Also, give me a break - someone talking about nerfs or buff elicits "strong or emotional response" and those are all over the place. Thats just a blanket to remove or ban stuff you dont like. Stop being babies.

Hilarious that talking about loot crates "aka gamble boxes" is like yelling fire in a crowded theater.

Glurin · June 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

"trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction"

The list of things that don't do that is growing very, very short these days. Someone in the thread in question mentioned empathy. They meant it as a jab against those considered to be defending loot boxes, but it was mentioned.

Empathy is a bad thing. You want a bit of sympathy, but empathy is the fuel driving the SJW wildfire that is destroying public discourse and reasoned debate.

I wouldn't go that far. Empathy is just the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, so to speak. You empathize with people all the time, you probably just don't realize you're doing it.

No, it's not. Empathy is feeling what they feel. You're angry, so I'm angry. You're sad, so I'm sad. You're offended, so I'm offended. (Or as has been the case lately, you might have been offended, so I'm going to be offended for you.)

Sympathy is the ability to understand why people feel the way they feel. You're angry, I'm not but I understand the reason why you are angry. You're sad, I'm not but I understand why you are sad. etc. etc.

It is a vitally important distinction to make, especially when it comes to any kind of decision making process. Unfortunately people have forgotten that and no longer understand why it is so incredibly important.

essi2 · June 2019

Glurin wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

"trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction"

The list of things that don't do that is growing very, very short these days. Someone in the thread in question mentioned empathy. They meant it as a jab against those considered to be defending loot boxes, but it was mentioned.

Empathy is a bad thing. You want a bit of sympathy, but empathy is the fuel driving the SJW wildfire that is destroying public discourse and reasoned debate.

I wouldn't go that far. Empathy is just the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, so to speak. You empathize with people all the time, you probably just don't realize you're doing it.

No, it's not. Empathy is feeling what they feel. You're angry, so I'm angry. You're sad, so I'm sad. You're offended, so I'm offended. (Or as has been the case lately, you might have been offended, so I'm going to be offended for you.)

Sympathy is the ability to understand why people feel the way they feel. You're angry, I'm not but I understand the reason why you are angry. You're sad, I'm not but I understand why you are sad. etc. etc.

It is a vitally important distinction to make, especially when it comes to any kind of decision making process. Unfortunately people have forgotten that and no longer understand why it is so incredibly important.

You've got them reversed.

Cazzy · June 2019

Glurin wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

"trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction"

The list of things that don't do that is growing very, very short these days. Someone in the thread in question mentioned empathy. They meant it as a jab against those considered to be defending loot boxes, but it was mentioned.

Empathy is a bad thing. You want a bit of sympathy, but empathy is the fuel driving the SJW wildfire that is destroying public discourse and reasoned debate.

I wouldn't go that far. Empathy is just the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, so to speak. You empathize with people all the time, you probably just don't realize you're doing it.

No, it's not. Empathy is feeling what they feel. You're angry, so I'm angry. You're sad, so I'm sad. You're offended, so I'm offended. (Or as has been the case lately, you might have been offended, so I'm going to be offended for you.)

Sympathy is the ability to understand why people feel the way they feel. You're angry, I'm not but I understand the reason why you are angry. You're sad, I'm not but I understand why you are sad. etc. etc.

It is a vitally important distinction to make, especially when it comes to any kind of decision making process. Unfortunately people have forgotten that and no longer understand why it is so incredibly important.

Actually, empathy is much more than that

it's the ability to see things from their perspective and understand the emotion or reaction. Sympathy is simply feeling an emotion on behalf of that person.

Aurie · June 2019

Actually Glurin has not got empathy and sympathy reversed. He is perfectly correct.

THIS

Glurin · June 2019

Cazzy wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

I was driven to make this post due to the locking of a thread concerning a recent study posted on arXiv concerning microtransactions, and random loot boxes in particular.

The original post was factual, it linked to the study, and it had direct applicability and relevance to ESO. The author did take a position against loot boxes, but it was a reasoned position, with which you may or not agree. The thread was closed due to it being considered in violation of the bashing and baiting rules of the ESO forums.

Out of curiosity, I looked up those rules, which read as follows:

Bashing and Slanderous Comments: We do not permit the bashing of individuals (including ZeniMax employees), groups, or other companies on our forums. We believe that doing so is neither constructive nor in spirit of our game and community.
(...)
Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.

The thread in question was, as I said, factual and linked to a source. The issue may be divisive, but I don't believe the forum rules prevent opinion sharing. There was no trolling or troll baiting that I could see in the original. At most, some of the replies were callous.

I was sad to see the thread closed on such flimsy grounds. Microtransactions have been discussed before, I have often taken part in the discussion, and I have often subscribed to the understanding that microtransactions, and loot boxes in particular, are deceptive and exploitative. Vut this is the first time I see this reaction from moderation against an entire thread. For future reference and guidance, could someone detail in what way the thread violated the rules quoted above?

Yeah, I saw that and wondered what specifically was "baiting" or/and "bashing". Sadly, this thread may be locked too as it's discussing moderators decisions. I hope they decide to re-open the initial thread though. There didn't seem to be any rules broken as far as I could see...

Yeah, that's the thing. The rules (generally speaking, not forum specific) on this sort of thing have been changing so much that nobody knows what they are anymore. So much so that even if the official enforcers of said rules fully acknowledge that you didn't violate any of them, they will probably still take action against you in a vain attempt to appease the one or two people pitching a fit about it.

That's not good, and it's really a pretty scary place for any society to be in.

Glurin · June 2019

Cazzy wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

"trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction"

The list of things that don't do that is growing very, very short these days. Someone in the thread in question mentioned empathy. They meant it as a jab against those considered to be defending loot boxes, but it was mentioned.

Empathy is a bad thing. You want a bit of sympathy, but empathy is the fuel driving the SJW wildfire that is destroying public discourse and reasoned debate.

I wouldn't go that far. Empathy is just the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, so to speak. You empathize with people all the time, you probably just don't realize you're doing it.

No, it's not. Empathy is feeling what they feel. You're angry, so I'm angry. You're sad, so I'm sad. You're offended, so I'm offended. (Or as has been the case lately, you might have been offended, so I'm going to be offended for you.)

Sympathy is the ability to understand why people feel the way they feel. You're angry, I'm not but I understand the reason why you are angry. You're sad, I'm not but I understand why you are sad. etc. etc.

It is a vitally important distinction to make, especially when it comes to any kind of decision making process. Unfortunately people have forgotten that and no longer understand why it is so incredibly important.

Actually, empathy is much more than that

That's the problem. When you empathize with someone, you become just as biased and irrational as they are. When you sympathize, you can see things from their perspective without allowing their feelings or yours to override the logical decision making process.

Thevampirenight · June 2019

I think it was the way people were commenting on it. Certain threads if they are not constructive or not if they don't relate to eso fully they might just close down. It could be they feel its a bait thread. And not a constructive thread so they closed it down. So it could be any number of reasons.