Penetration calculation and how it works

CatchMeTrolling · June 2019

So I’ve been messing around with penetration a lot recently but I have a question that I’m not too sure about.

To my knowledge a 2h maul calculates after your base pen , so after things like set, trait and cp pen. Is that how it actually works or is it 20 percent of the persons resistance before any of that is calculated? The latter sounds op which is why I figured it was calculated after.

Another thing is how does wood elf passive and minor fracture get calculated into the equation? I just want to know my exact effective penetration fully buffed.

Minno · June 2019

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

So I’ve been messing around with penetration a lot recently but I have a question that I’m not too sure about.

To my knowledge a 2h maul calculates after your base pen , so after things like set, trait and cp pen. Is that how it actually works or is it 20 percent of the persons resistance before any of that is calculated? The latter sounds op which is why I figured it was calculated after.

Another thing is how does wood elf passive and minor fracture get calculated into the equation? I just want to know my exact effective penetration fully buffed.

Major/minor - percentage - unnamed.

Chances are wood elf is at the end.

WrathOfInnos · June 2019

Maul calculates off the targets current armor. Keep in mind there are 2 ways to get through armor, armor debuffs and penetration buffs. Armor debuffs can be applied by one person to the target, and all allies benefit from it (Fracture, Alkosh, Crusher). Penetration buffs apply only to the DPS using it (Piercing CP, Two Fang, Spriggan, Sharpened, Lover). The 20% is calculated after armor debuffs, but before penetration buffs.

Effective armor = (Base Armor - Armor Debuffs) x 0.8 - Opponents Physical Penetration

So for example if an enemy has 18200 Physical Resistance, and you have Major Fracture (5280) and Two Fang (4300) then Maul takes off (18200-5280) x 0.2 = 2584. So the effective resistance is 18200-5280-2584-4300=6036.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · June 2019

there are 3 kinds of pen in the game. flat debuffs (major/minor breach/fracture, akosh, crusher), self-percentage based pen (mauls/maces and the destro passive "Penetrating Magic ") and flat self-penetration bonuses (armor set bonuses, spriggans/spinners/TFS, lover and sharpened, CP nodes "Spell Erosion"/"Piercing" and necro passive "Dismember" and the wood elf passive "Hunter's Eye"). debuffs are for everyone attacking the mobs, self percentage based pen and flat penetration bonuses are only for you. self percentage based pen is calculated off the amount of resistance after all debuffs take armor off the target, EG say a mob has 10k armor(no pve mob has this, just an example) and gets hit with minor fracture, which takes 1320 armor from the mob, then you apply the 10% from a single mace, you would get 868 pen from the mace, as it is 10% from the 8680 armor left after the 1320 is subtracted from the mobs armor becuase of alkosh. so you are left with 7812. it is then flat self pen is subtracted from the armor, the wood elf passive "Hunter's Eye" is one of those, so you would be left with 6312 resistance.

i hope this makes sense. if you want to know more, i really recommend you read this thread, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1, it is very informative.

CatchMeTrolling · June 2019

I understand a bit more, still a lot more to process than I thought.

However I was only considering pen that I would be applying myself to a target.

So in a 1v1, if a person has 19k physical resistance how much would it be if my base pen (traits, gear and cp) is 11,225+minor+ wood elf+ 20% maul?

Edit: If I’m correct it’s around 1419. But that sounds crazy.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · June 2019

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I understand a bit more, still a lot more to process than I thought.

However I was only considering pen that I would be applying myself to a target.

So in a 1v1, if a person has 19k physical resistance how much would it be if my base pen (traits, gear and cp) is 11,225+minor+ wood elf+ 20% maul?

wood elf is in what you are calling "base pen", that is your "flat self-penetration bonuses", so it would look like this-

The formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation =1-((((Target Resistance - Target Debuffs)*(1 - % Penetration ) - Penetration)/(Target.EffectiveLevel * 1000))))

so your formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation = 1-((((19000 - 1320 )*(1 - .2 ) - 12725)/(66 * 1000))))= 0.9785, so you would be doing ~98% of the tooltip on the target.

without the wood elf passive, the formula looks like this-

Armor Mitigation = 1-((((19000 - 1320 )*(1 - .2 ) - 11,225)/(66 * 1000)))) = 0.9557. or you would be doing ~96% of the tooltip on the target.

Edit: If I’m correct it’s around 1419. But that sounds crazy.

that is how much the armor the target would have left, yes, what about that is crazy?

@Masel this look right? also in that thread, you say this- "In no cp pvp, players are also considered as level 50, so here it is also 50000" is this true? because if it is, there are a lot of players that need to/don't realize this.

CatchMeTrolling · June 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I understand a bit more, still a lot more to process than I thought.

However I was only considering pen that I would be applying myself to a target.

So in a 1v1, if a person has 19k physical resistance how much would it be if my base pen (traits, gear and cp) is 11,225+minor+ wood elf+ 20% maul?

wood elf is in what you are calling "base pen", that is your "flat self-penetration bonuses", so it would look like this-

The formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation =1-((((Target Resistance - Target Debuffs)*(1 - % Penetration ) - Penetration)/(Target.EffectiveLevel * 1000))))

so your formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation = 1-((((19000 - 1320 )*(1 - .2 ) - 12725)/(66 * 1000))))= 0.9785, so you would be doing ~98% of the tooltip on the target.

Oh okay I get it now, thanks. That’ll help me for builds in the future.

And it sounds crazy because I knew pen was the way to go but I didn’t think it was borderline broken against certain builds.

Edit again: The way I was calculating it before the player would still have 3,964 resistance left.

Minno · June 2019

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I understand a bit more, still a lot more to process than I thought.

However I was only considering pen that I would be applying myself to a target.

So in a 1v1, if a person has 19k physical resistance how much would it be if my base pen (traits, gear and cp) is 11,225+minor+ wood elf+ 20% maul?

wood elf is in what you are calling "base pen", that is your "flat self-penetration bonuses", so it would look like this-

The formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation =1-((((Target Resistance - Target Debuffs)*(1 - % Penetration ) - Penetration)/(Target.EffectiveLevel * 1000))))

so your formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation = 1-((((19000 - 1320 )*(1 - .2 ) - 12725)/(66 * 1000))))= 0.9785, so you would be doing ~98% of the tooltip on the target.

Oh okay I get it now, thanks. That’ll help me for builds in the future.

And it sounds crazy because I knew pen was the way to go but I didn’t think it was borderline broken against certain builds.

Edit again: The way I was calculating it before the player would still have 3,964 resistance left.

Yea very insightful. I always forget how complex the equation looks lol

CatchMeTrolling · June 2019

Minno wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I understand a bit more, still a lot more to process than I thought.

However I was only considering pen that I would be applying myself to a target.

So in a 1v1, if a person has 19k physical resistance how much would it be if my base pen (traits, gear and cp) is 11,225+minor+ wood elf+ 20% maul?

wood elf is in what you are calling "base pen", that is your "flat self-penetration bonuses", so it would look like this-

The formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation =1-((((Target Resistance - Target Debuffs)*(1 - % Penetration ) - Penetration)/(Target.EffectiveLevel * 1000))))

so your formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation = 1-((((19000 - 1320 )*(1 - .2 ) - 12725)/(66 * 1000))))= 0.9785, so you would be doing ~98% of the tooltip on the target.

Oh okay I get it now, thanks. That’ll help me for builds in the future.

And it sounds crazy because I knew pen was the way to go but I didn’t think it was borderline broken against certain builds.

Edit again: The way I was calculating it before the player would still have 3,964 resistance left.

Yea very insightful. I always forget how complex the equation looks lol

The equation can be off putting, I think putting it in words is easier to comprehend in general. But it would be harder if you calculate other mitigation into it as well like the protections and cp, although it’s kinda pointless since everyone setups aren’t the same.

Minno · June 2019

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I understand a bit more, still a lot more to process than I thought.

However I was only considering pen that I would be applying myself to a target.

So in a 1v1, if a person has 19k physical resistance how much would it be if my base pen (traits, gear and cp) is 11,225+minor+ wood elf+ 20% maul?

wood elf is in what you are calling "base pen", that is your "flat self-penetration bonuses", so it would look like this-

The formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation =1-((((Target Resistance - Target Debuffs)*(1 - % Penetration ) - Penetration)/(Target.EffectiveLevel * 1000))))

so your formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation = 1-((((19000 - 1320 )*(1 - .2 ) - 12725)/(66 * 1000))))= 0.9785, so you would be doing ~98% of the tooltip on the target.

Oh okay I get it now, thanks. That’ll help me for builds in the future.

And it sounds crazy because I knew pen was the way to go but I didn’t think it was borderline broken against certain builds.

Edit again: The way I was calculating it before the player would still have 3,964 resistance left.

Yea very insightful. I always forget how complex the equation looks lol

The equation can be off putting, I think putting it in words is easier to comprehend in general. But it would be harder if you calculate other mitigation into it as well like the protections and cp, although it’s kinda pointless since everyone setups aren’t the same.

I always go for averages. Like I know most setups shoot for 10k pen, 40% crit 26000 physical/spell restarts 3300 crit resist with a 1.8 modifer. To me that's what I'll be facing the most, and I'll use those metrics.

CatchMeTrolling · June 2019

Minno wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I understand a bit more, still a lot more to process than I thought.

However I was only considering pen that I would be applying myself to a target.

So in a 1v1, if a person has 19k physical resistance how much would it be if my base pen (traits, gear and cp) is 11,225+minor+ wood elf+ 20% maul?

wood elf is in what you are calling "base pen", that is your "flat self-penetration bonuses", so it would look like this-

The formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation =1-((((Target Resistance - Target Debuffs)*(1 - % Penetration ) - Penetration)/(Target.EffectiveLevel * 1000))))

so your formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation = 1-((((19000 - 1320 )*(1 - .2 ) - 12725)/(66 * 1000))))= 0.9785, so you would be doing ~98% of the tooltip on the target.

Oh okay I get it now, thanks. That’ll help me for builds in the future.

And it sounds crazy because I knew pen was the way to go but I didn’t think it was borderline broken against certain builds.

Edit again: The way I was calculating it before the player would still have 3,964 resistance left.

Yea very insightful. I always forget how complex the equation looks lol

The equation can be off putting, I think putting it in words is easier to comprehend in general. But it would be harder if you calculate other mitigation into it as well like the protections and cp, although it’s kinda pointless since everyone setups aren’t the same.

I always go for averages. Like I know most setups shoot for 10k pen, 40% crit 26000 physical/spell restarts 3300 crit resist with a 1.8 modifer. To me that's what I'll be facing the most, and I'll use those metrics.

I can do that for averages but I was saying it’ll get harder if you throw in CP mitigation and minor/major protection. That would just to figure out how much total damage you’d do to someone but again builds vary so I’ll just focus on pen and resistance.

Minno · June 2019

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I understand a bit more, still a lot more to process than I thought.

However I was only considering pen that I would be applying myself to a target.

So in a 1v1, if a person has 19k physical resistance how much would it be if my base pen (traits, gear and cp) is 11,225+minor+ wood elf+ 20% maul?

wood elf is in what you are calling "base pen", that is your "flat self-penetration bonuses", so it would look like this-

The formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation =1-((((Target Resistance - Target Debuffs)*(1 - % Penetration ) - Penetration)/(Target.EffectiveLevel * 1000))))

so your formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation = 1-((((19000 - 1320 )*(1 - .2 ) - 12725)/(66 * 1000))))= 0.9785, so you would be doing ~98% of the tooltip on the target.

Oh okay I get it now, thanks. That’ll help me for builds in the future.

And it sounds crazy because I knew pen was the way to go but I didn’t think it was borderline broken against certain builds.

Edit again: The way I was calculating it before the player would still have 3,964 resistance left.

Yea very insightful. I always forget how complex the equation looks lol

The equation can be off putting, I think putting it in words is easier to comprehend in general. But it would be harder if you calculate other mitigation into it as well like the protections and cp, although it’s kinda pointless since everyone setups aren’t the same.

I always go for averages. Like I know most setups shoot for 10k pen, 40% crit 26000 physical/spell restarts 3300 crit resist with a 1.8 modifer. To me that's what I'll be facing the most, and I'll use those metrics.

I can do that for averages but I was saying it’ll get harder if you throw in CP mitigation and minor/major protection. That would just to figure out how much total damage you’d do to someone but again builds vary so I’ll just focus on pen and resistance.

Makes sense! You can also include the resistant star for crits or the armor.

CatchMeTrolling · June 2019

Minno wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I understand a bit more, still a lot more to process than I thought.

However I was only considering pen that I would be applying myself to a target.

So in a 1v1, if a person has 19k physical resistance how much would it be if my base pen (traits, gear and cp) is 11,225+minor+ wood elf+ 20% maul?

wood elf is in what you are calling "base pen", that is your "flat self-penetration bonuses", so it would look like this-

The formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation =1-((((Target Resistance - Target Debuffs)*(1 - % Penetration ) - Penetration)/(Target.EffectiveLevel * 1000))))

so your formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation = 1-((((19000 - 1320 )*(1 - .2 ) - 12725)/(66 * 1000))))= 0.9785, so you would be doing ~98% of the tooltip on the target.

Oh okay I get it now, thanks. That’ll help me for builds in the future.

And it sounds crazy because I knew pen was the way to go but I didn’t think it was borderline broken against certain builds.

Edit again: The way I was calculating it before the player would still have 3,964 resistance left.

Yea very insightful. I always forget how complex the equation looks lol

The equation can be off putting, I think putting it in words is easier to comprehend in general. But it would be harder if you calculate other mitigation into it as well like the protections and cp, although it’s kinda pointless since everyone setups aren’t the same.

I always go for averages. Like I know most setups shoot for 10k pen, 40% crit 26000 physical/spell restarts 3300 crit resist with a 1.8 modifer. To me that's what I'll be facing the most, and I'll use those metrics.

I can do that for averages but I was saying it’ll get harder if you throw in CP mitigation and minor/major protection. That would just to figure out how much total damage you’d do to someone but again builds vary so I’ll just focus on pen and resistance.

Makes sense! You can also include the resistant star for crits or the armor.

Yeah I usually just add that to the overall equation

Davadin · June 2019

my rule of thumb: you can't overpen in CP Cyrodiil...

CatchMeTrolling · June 2019

Davadin wrote: »

my rule of thumb: you can't overpen in CP Cyrodiil...

I know as much , it’s more so about finding the sweet spot for weapon damage and pen. So right now I’m looking at 4K weapon damage with the amount of pen I said I had.

I’m looking to make a more cancerous pen build with necro in the future.

Davadin · June 2019

sounds good. unbuffed im about 3.5k wep with 2H maul and Spriggan at around 10k.

Stx · June 2019

I have 13500 penetration plus major and minor fracture and 20% ignore from maul. All I do is put up my carve bleed and spam power of the light and jabs, it shreds most players.