Why is there no role lock for dungeon finder?

zvavi · June 2019

Ok gonna address some things here. On my main. I healed. Dd'd. And tanked. Dlc vet dungeons.my MoS and FL achievements are from tanking. My SCP and FV and DoM achievements are from off healing (and damageeeee) my other dlc dungeons are from dding. All on the same toon. So please, enlighten me how would the idea be fair toward me. If anything, Zos should sell templates for crowns (like outfit slots) so i can swap cp and skill morphs between few crown purchased slots, so i can efficiently swap between the 3. Aw right, 4, there is pvp. Then more people will be able to do the same, you know, actually have tank and dd gears, and queue as tank or dd (at the same time)

AhPook_Is_Here · June 2019

daedalusAI wrote: »

On principle I despise people queueing for tank/heal, when in fact they're just dps trying to get a fast queue.

Why is there no role check in place which only allows people to queue as tank/heal after certain conditions, e.g. role-appropriate skills/spells are on their bars, have been met?

Here is a good idea for you, if you queue as a tank or a healer, if you don't have a resto staff or s/b the game provides you with a default white one you can use for the duration of the adventure. Your bars are re-arranged to a pre-set generic build that works for any tank or healer and if you move any skills the character is killed and suffers durability loss, and the bar is restored to the generic preset. Same deal with equipment, move something off and you die. If you have a custom build and weapons as long as your skills are within 80% of the generic build you will not be instantly killed and given the generic build.

Once engaged in combat, tanks have 7 seconds to taunt, and must taunt every 7 seconds again or they explode, doing damage to their own party. Healers must generate some healing, including over-healing every 5 seconds or explode.

Finally like Speed, DPS, once engaged in combat, must keep their average dps above 40k or, you got it, explode.

mairwen85 · June 2019

daemonios wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

K I’m max cp and a pal of mine (prob the best MagDk PcNA) wanted to do a random normal on his Necro. So we q and get 2 low levels. I’m like “we gonna wait for em I think they’re doing the quests?” He’s like “f them! They got a 1 Star to stand beside” (me). They raced along after him anyways.

So, he leaves. I stay in group went afk or something come back I’m in crypt of hearts 2 with the two low levels and a cp 500 tank who can actually tank. We get to that one boss whose mitigation rises if you kill it’s adds and the tank bless his heart is yelling out mechanics like “no don’t kill the adds.”

Now I could solo CoH2, THAT boss and everything in it on NORMAL for craps sake. I said “watch this” and burned the thang down.

After we finished the dungeon I thanked everyone (for NOTHING). I didn’t need them fools. But there’s no reason to be mean in dungeons. I made two low level friends even. (We call them bunnies). So I got two bunnies out of the deal too.

Group finder and pugging dungeons and ultimately playing the game should be fun. I’m a dps but my MagDk is tanky af. I’ll even toss a fool a cauterize in a pinch. I’ve queued as a tank before. No complaints. I’ve even answered requests in zone for a tank with “Well I’m a fake tank can I go?” Folks are like “Hell yeah!” And I pug along. People need to relax, particularly doing normal and vet non dlc dungeons. Have fun.

Are you trolling?

- If you went AFK you couldn't have confirmed a new queue, so you couldn't have come back and suddenly be in CoH2 (unless you have an auto-confirm queue add-on).
- I dont know any boss in CoH2 with the increasing mitigation. What you describe sounds like the side boss in Fungal Grotto 2, the shepherd with 3 spiders.
- Are you really bragging about being able to solo a *normal* dungeon, then being all patronizing about how much better you are than low level players? You say PUGs should be fun, but it seems to me you're the sort of people who make it very much *not* fun. I was away from the game for 2 years and I'm honestly *hating* PUG groups. Not just because of the unprepared people. In fact, I'm more annoyed at people who don't care about playing, they just want to race to the end and pick up their carrot. No hello, no waiting for anyone ever, and when some inevitably f*** up because they're treating a vet dungeon like it's a normal one, they have no shortage of opinions on how everyone other than them sucks.

I was so ready to call out the unscaleable mountain of bull excrement in that post - - but you beat me to it

At least I can still glare disapprovingly at the patronising tone...

bunnies

Indeed.

ryzen_gamer_gal · June 2019

there is no roll lock for dungeon finder because your butt hurt over faction lock is not our problem.

thanks and have a nice day or not - as you see fit.

ps stop your whining.

Yusuf · June 2019

daedalusAI wrote: »

Hixtory wrote: »

That can't be done, "Play as you want" is the moto for ZOS. In reality a tank will just need a taunt (pierce armor or inner fire) to do the job.

Now, if there are dps joining VETdungeons with roles they dont fit, I would be mad too, so that's why "Vote to kick" exist.

If it's normal, who cares really...

Intriguing answer:
By your account if I'd be taking my sorc into a normal dungeon with light armor, no tank/support skills/spells but a single taunt I'm doing fine

Why are you expressing the complete opposite opinion if it's a vet dungeon? The difficulty shouldn't matter

Vote to kick only works with the premise of 3 votes if its a dungeon

Difficulty does matter. If the "fake" tank can hold aggro and deal 80% of the group's overall damage I don't think anybody has the right to complain except that poor tank himself as he had to do the jobs of 3 people.

Nogawd · June 2019

James-Wayne wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

sionIV wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

On principle I despise people queueing for tank/heal, when in fact they're just dps trying to get a fast queue.

Why is there no role check in place which only allows people to queue as tank/heal after certain conditions, e.g. role-appropriate skills/spells are on their bars, have been met?

If we're going to implement a feature like this, there should be one for DPS too.

We seriously need a DPS course required before Dugeon Finder can be used. Too many players don’t learn anything from any quests because nothing is a threat and there’s no penalty for extremely low dps or bad positioning that will be weighing down a group later.

Locking role tags doesn’t stop the fake tank issue, but the game’s dungeons are low damage on normal so you only feel the need for tanks and healers on vet

I've been saying this for years, we need a dungeon tutorial so players can understand the different roles and what is required of you for that role, at minimum.

Why are these players with the demands not in guilds running with other players that know what they are doing instead of pugging with the q? Why don't they have friends they run with? Maybe its not the fake tanks/heals with the toxic personalities, but the other way around and why they have to rely on the q.

daedalusAI · June 2019

Nogawd wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

sionIV wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

On principle I despise people queueing for tank/heal, when in fact they're just dps trying to get a fast queue.

Why is there no role check in place which only allows people to queue as tank/heal after certain conditions, e.g. role-appropriate skills/spells are on their bars, have been met?

If we're going to implement a feature like this, there should be one for DPS too.

We seriously need a DPS course required before Dugeon Finder can be used. Too many players don’t learn anything from any quests because nothing is a threat and there’s no penalty for extremely low dps or bad positioning that will be weighing down a group later.

Locking role tags doesn’t stop the fake tank issue, but the game’s dungeons are low damage on normal so you only feel the need for tanks and healers on vet

I've been saying this for years, we need a dungeon tutorial so players can understand the different roles and what is required of you for that role, at minimum.

Why are these players with the demands not in guilds running with other players that know what they are doing instead of pugging with the q? Why don't they have friends they run with? Maybe its not the fake tanks/heals with the toxic personalities, but the other way around and why they have to rely on the q.

Pretty obvious slight of hand as far as a reversal of burden of proof you did there:

*Oh, you're queuing as tank/healer despite being dps who just wanted to get a fast queue? No problem, keep doing that*
*Oh, you're complaining about a dps queuing as tank/heal. Pretty sure you're toxic for pointing that out*

I just tried to do Darkshade 1 and both times the tank was a dps.
The first time the kick I initiated went through, the 2nd time they kicked me for going afk as they refused to kick the new dps queuing as tank.

Apparently going afk and refusing to play with a fake tank is worse than queuing for a role you're not.

And you can't make a believe that even new players were unable to spot those 3 big role icons at the top left of the dungeon finder panel and just "happen" to select the wrong one being tank/healer.

Chadak · June 2019

This issue is completely resolved by premaking your own group.

/thread

daemonios · June 2019

Chadak wrote: »

This issue is completely resolved by premaking your own group.

/thread

Why stop there? Performance can be fixed by not playing!

huntgod_ESO · June 2019

They should remove the roles from the LFG Q, or leave them but and even prioritize with them, but if there is not a T or H it slots another DPS and then you can sort whether you wanna run 4 dps or not.

I don't Q vet and can solo most normal dungeons, so the only time this is really an issue for me is when leveling a new characters (and both my nec's are done now) but it does affect guildies who are leveling or trying to get CP.

There is nothing preventing q'ing as whatever, so get rid of the requirement, it will streamline the LFG Q's and fix a lot of those problems.

barney2525 · June 2019

The complexity of that suggestion is greater than any system would be able to sort properly. You are asking a Machine to actually Evaluate characters.

Open up a new thread for every tank/healer that got denied entrance because the machine would not let them in.

Glurin · June 2019

huntgod_ESO wrote: »

They should remove the roles from the LFG Q, or leave them but and even prioritize with them, but if there is not a T or H it slots another DPS and then you can sort whether you wanna run 4 dps or not.

And have to re-queue at least a dozen times over before we finally get someone who bothered to at least slot a taunt or a heal? No thanks.

huntgod_ESO wrote: »

There is nothing preventing q'ing as whatever, so get rid of the requirement, it will streamline the LFG Q's and fix a lot of those problems.

And create three times as many. The thing preventing people from queuing as whatever is that many PUGs die without a tank or healer. Especially when you're talking vet DLC dungeon, but even the old original vet dungeons can be problematic in PUGs without at least someone with a taunt that can take a hit or two.

I've PUGed vet content a lot. You are drastically overestimating the capabilities of groups composed of yourself and three completely random people selected out of a virtual hat and that's probably because as you yourself stated, you don't queue for vet.

Pronto · June 2019

daedalusAI wrote: »

Hixtory wrote: »

That can't be done, "Play as you want" is the moto for ZOS. In reality a tank will just need a taunt (pierce armor or inner fire) to do the job.

Now, if there are dps joining VETdungeons with roles they dont fit, I would be mad too, so that's why "Vote to kick" exist.

If it's normal, who cares really...

Intriguing answer:
By your account if I'd be taking my sorc into a normal dungeon with light armor, no tank/support skills/spells but a single taunt I'm doing fine

Why are you expressing the complete opposite opinion if it's a vet dungeon? The difficulty shouldn't matter

Vote to kick only works with the premise of 3 votes if its a dungeon

Difficulty does matter. Normal dungeons are extremely easy if you're a semi-experienced player. They are the introductions to the dungeon experience for new players, but many still queue for them just to get their daily out of the way. Roles aren't even really necessary in normal dungeons because it is to cater to brand new players who probably don't know their class yet.

This is why 4 DPS can fly through the non-DLC normals in 5-6 minutes. A lot of DPS queue as healer or tank as a result to get the wait time out of the way so they can just fly right through because of this, most of the time people don't mind because they are also just trying to get it out of the way.

The vet dungeons however are a lot harder, and you can't pull stuff like that. This is because there are often one-shot mechanics and mobs hit harder, making tanks and healers needed. A DPS misqueueing in vets is usually setting the group up for failure.

Vercingetorix · June 2019

Any mag DPS can easily slap on a restoration staff with Healing Springs if the need for a healer arises. Why should a mag DPS queue strictly as DPS when they have the proper stats and toolkit to effortlessly swap to a healer role? I queue as a healer all the time when I'm on a mag DPS char. If the group really needs the heals, I can bar swap and throw some heals out on the back bar. OP's suggestion is beyond idiotic - tanks and healers aren't even needed unless it's a DLC dungeon or a vet dungeon with the sheer amount of self-heals present in class toolkits.

FakeFox · June 2019

I would just queue with tank preset and swap to DD in the dungeon, anyone else? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Taloros · June 2019

Some statements:

1. The group finder is, at least in my understanding, not aimed at the upper echelon of players. These tend to be organized in guilds and find group mates there. For players that are not able (or willing) to solo or burst through any dungeons, tanks and healers are necessary. So, queueing for one of these functions without being able to fulfill that role is a bit unfair to those the tool is aimed at - or at least who are "allowed" to use it, too.
2. Even if it is possible, even the players in a group might be able to complete a dungeon without tank/healer, maybe they don't want to. Personally, I like tanking, for example. And others might enjoy playing as a pure DD without worrying about their health, controlling mobs and so on. Others again hate dealing damage and only heal. And that's okay. ZOS assumes that we follow the standard MMO trinity setup, and it's okay for players to assume that, too.*
3. If one wants to vent one's frustration with bad groups, don't shout at them, but say something positive to the good groups. Constructive criticism is okay, even positive, but by Molag Balm, at least I am tired of the braggers. Especially as most of them completely overestimate their own abilities*.
4. The problem doesn't seem to be that big. I must have used the dungeon finder for about 500 times, and rarely encountered fake tanks or - as far as one can see that - fake healers. One meets bad players, even sheer idiots, but most of them, in my view, failed in their role because of a lack of understanding, not because they applied for another role on purpose.
The only time I really encountered a "fake healer", he openly admitted that, offered to leave (because he was thrown into a DLC dungeon instead of FG1) and actually helped to carry the too duds we had on our team pretty nicely. I fake-healed with my tank, and he killed the bosses, while the two supposed DDs learned the mechanics. Actually a pleasant, if drawn-out experience.
5. "Bad" DPS players aren't "fake" DPS players. I twice had "DDs" with a sword/shield setup. These might have been fake DDs. But the usual "bad" player is just in a learning phase, and that's okay. The game is god damn easy, and it's perfectly okay to carry through one or - if must be - two players. Especially if one sees oneself as so greater than everybody else - share your greatness instead of complaining about the lacking skill of others. After all, if everybody was so great as you, where would you be?

*Anecdote: Personally, I to soloed my first group dungeon before ever using the group finder tool, because, uhm, I didn't realize there was such a thing. Yes, silly, I know. It's more fun in groups, though. And a lot faster.
**Anecdote: Was in a dungeon recently with a tank who bragged how many people he rezzed during an encounter. People who needed rezzes because he let them die beforehand. It was... aggravating.

Massacre_Wurm · June 2019

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Any mag DPS can easily slap on a restoration staff with Healing Springs if the need for a healer arises. Why should a mag DPS queue strictly as DPS when they have the proper stats and toolkit to effortlessly swap to a healer role? I queue as a healer all the time when I'm on a mag DPS char. If the group really needs the heals, I can bar swap and throw some heals out on the back bar. OP's suggestion is beyond idiotic - tanks and healers aren't even needed unless it's a DLC dungeon or a vet dungeon with the sheer amount of self-heals present in class toolkits.

Tell this to my last group in normal Mazzatun. We died 4 times. 2 time on last boss and 2 times in between.
Managed to finish it only because i had healing matriarch morph ( i qed as dd )

tyggerbob · June 2019

This is truly a 'learn to play' issue and not in the usual pejorative 'get gud' kind of way..
People learn to play their characters in the easier content.

A tank learns to use their chains and taunts to gather the adds for the DPS to AOE down..
They learn to taunt and place the bosses so they can block them and the boss doesn't run off and flatten some squishy DPS.
They learn to use the synergies to keep their resources up
A healer learns to catch that one character off to the side who got hit hard and needs some healing.
They both learn to provide the much-needed buffs for the DPS
The DPS learns their rotations and not just to spam some easy skill
They learn to use the buffs and gathering to increase their overall damage output

Sure.. normals are easy.. we know that. .we get that. But if you're allowed to, this is where you LEARN to play better. learn what you need to do when you're in a vet DLC dungeon or a trial. Where you develop those skills.
Do we NEED to do them for normal? Of course not. Should we take the time to let people learn and teach them things? Share what we know about the mechanics and playstyles? ABSOLUTELY.
It doesn't have to be a sprint to the carrot as someone above mentioned. Help people. Teach people.. Learn yourself and your character and skills.

Just my $0.02..

Vercingetorix · June 2019

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Any mag DPS can easily slap on a restoration staff with Healing Springs if the need for a healer arises. Why should a mag DPS queue strictly as DPS when they have the proper stats and toolkit to effortlessly swap to a healer role? I queue as a healer all the time when I'm on a mag DPS char. If the group really needs the heals, I can bar swap and throw some heals out on the back bar. OP's suggestion is beyond idiotic - tanks and healers aren't even needed unless it's a DLC dungeon or a vet dungeon with the sheer amount of self-heals present in class toolkits.

Tell this to my last group in normal Mazzatun. We died 4 times. 2 time on last boss and 2 times in between.
Managed to finish it only because i had healing matriarch morph ( i qed as dd )

Did you even read my post? I said that healers and tanks weren't needed UNLESS it was a DLC dungeon or a vet dungeon. Mazzatun is a DLC dungeon - if your group lacked a proper healer and tank, you SHOULD have wiped.