I'd like a decent trading system, and the improved communication we were promised late last year. The rest is great.

Abilities are too weak

starkerealm wrote: »

Aertew wrote: »

-Classes arent that unique. Both Necromancer and Warden have far too many abilities that share similarties. Heck, I found abilities necromancer had that came from dragonknight and sorcerer.

Summon an animal/undead creature that rushes forward and does AoE damage
Shoot a glowing bird/skull for single target damage
Summon an armor of bones/fiery spikes for defence
Place a circular AoE of graves/lightning/ice spikes on the ground
Harvest dead corpses for stamina/ultimate
Place a rune/totem on the ground for protection
Sacrifice your spirit/blood to heal an ally

If you squint even a little, you'll clearly notice that a ton of ESO class skills are minor variations on the same thing.

bluebird wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Aertew wrote: »

-Classes arent that unique. Both Necromancer and Warden have far too many abilities that share similarties. Heck, I found abilities necromancer had that came from dragonknight and sorcerer.

Summon an animal/undead creature that rushes forward and does AoE damage
Shoot a glowing bird/skull for single target damage
Summon an armor of bones/fiery spikes for defence
Place a circular AoE of graves/lightning/ice spikes on the ground
Harvest dead corpses for stamina/ultimate
Place a rune/totem on the ground for protection
Sacrifice your spirit/blood to heal an ally

If you squint even a little, you'll clearly notice that a ton of ESO class skills are minor variations on the same thing.

The annoying thing is the protection, where it gives you protection on you and increars defense.

Dragonknight, Warden and necromancer have this one ability.
Im on mobile but when I get on PC i can probably list a ton more similarties but bluebird basically says what im trying to get at.

bluebird wrote: »

*Draws a deep breath*

- Lack of stamina morphs and lack of stamina build diversity
- Lack of unique gameplay since most rotations are nearly identical (apply buffs, keep dots up, buttonmash, repeat - necro was a nice try to do something a bit different but ultimately it's not that different and it's clunky as hell)
- The necromancer class... just... the whole thing...
- Inability to faction change
- Crown Store prices
- Crown Store exclusive furniture and furniture packs that cost more than some houses

*Runs out of breath, inhales again*

- Having to pay 30-50 bucks for 'chapters' that are glorified DLCs with far less content than other MMO expansions with the same price
- Khajiit suddenly developing magicka bonuses equal to their stamina bonuses - mmmkaaay suuuuuure
- Bosmer losing their stealth bonus for... some reason - brilliant change, much needed
- Argonians losing their poison immunity while Argonian NPCs still refer to it - lol
- Annoying timegating like horse training and trait research - ain't nobody got time fo' dat
- Jewelcrafting plating drop rates and jewelcrafting cost as a result - just takes the fun out of the profession really

*Pauses to catch breath*

- Recurring problems with houses being too large, too dark, not having enough slots or being gimmicky limited time Crowns-only purchases
- 'Limited time' sales in general
- Server issues, EU especially
- Constant Steam issues
- Group Finder Tool, especially during events but also in general
- Account unlocks like DLCs, mounts, etc. not being account-wide

*Draws another breath*
...

Im glad im tbe only one that noticed the Expansions are a bit small. There are only 2-3 quest hubs, when vanilla places like Daggerfall have around 4-7. I think at the minium, if we are going to pay $40 for an expansion. It should have 2 trials, 3 dungeons and delves/public dungeons scattered around. People are going to say "your asking for too much" or something similar, but let me remind you ZOS makes a ton of money from
-base game
-DLCs
-expansions + preorder
-subscription
-crown store and crown crates

With all of these combined, i feel like ZOS has enough money to make areas bigger and feel more fleshed out.

The crown store is one of the biggest issues I have with the game currently(don't have enough exp with different classes to judge). They literally have every form of monetization known, cosmetics, lootboxes, DLCs, expansions, subscription, classes, boosters, houses, and I could go on. Now only that you are constantly pushed towards it, also the paywalls. ESO's cash shop feels like a cheap F2P which is desperate to milk as much as possible before their inevitable fall.

Aertew wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Aertew wrote: »

-Classes arent that unique. Both Necromancer and Warden have far too many abilities that share similarties. Heck, I found abilities necromancer had that came from dragonknight and sorcerer.

Summon an animal/undead creature that rushes forward and does AoE damage
Shoot a glowing bird/skull for single target damage
Summon an armor of bones/fiery spikes for defence
Place a circular AoE of graves/lightning/ice spikes on the ground
Harvest dead corpses for stamina/ultimate
Place a rune/totem on the ground for protection
Sacrifice your spirit/blood to heal an ally

If you squint even a little, you'll clearly notice that a ton of ESO class skills are minor variations on the same thing.

The annoying thing is the protection, where it gives you protection on you and increars defense.

Dragonknight, Warden and necromancer have this one ability.
Im on mobile but when I get on PC i can probably list a ton more similarties but bluebird basically says what im trying to get at.

All six classes have this one ability. Three of them are just, slightly, more distinct. The Sorc's armor buff is weaker and passive while slotted (though it does stack with a buff from the Warden or another source.) The Templar's armor buff requires them to stand in one spot, and the Nightblade's armor buff is in their passives, and triggers off the activation of anything from a specific skill line, which includes one of the best melee spammables in the game.

It's almost like being able to boost your durability is an important game feature.

I can't move. Not due to snares, but due to the movement speed bug. The sooner this gets fixed, the sooner my ESO+ can stop wasting away for nothing.

bluebird wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Aertew wrote: »

-Classes arent that unique. Both Necromancer and Warden have far too many abilities that share similarties. Heck, I found abilities necromancer had that came from dragonknight and sorcerer.

Summon an animal/undead creature that rushes forward and does AoE damage
Shoot a glowing bird/skull for single target damage
Summon an armor of bones/fiery spikes for defence
Place a circular AoE of graves/lightning/ice spikes on the ground
Harvest dead corpses for stamina/ultimate
Place a rune/totem on the ground for protection
Sacrifice your spirit/blood to heal an ally

If you squint even a little, you'll clearly notice that a ton of ESO class skills are minor variations on the same thing.

The problem here is, it becomes seriously reductive. "Shoot a projectile at a single target for damage?" Well ****, that's every class, and almost every weapon in the game, including some melee ones. "Clearly, the Necromancer's Skull is a ripoff of Dual Wield's throwing Knife." Wait, what?

Clearly, the personal armor buffs are all the same, even though one can be morphed to have a damage shield or damage nearby foes, one applies to multiple targets, and the final one can be morphed to pull enemies towards you, or generate a corpse on expiration. So, yeah, that's all the same, and we know they're the same because they all have completely different secondary effects.... right.

I mean, there is a point where, if you want to perform a role, you need certain things. Let's talk tanks for a second:

The armor buffs aren't necessary. Cool, but you don't need them.

Your tank does need a way to pull targets to you. For the DK, this is Chains, which is a single target ability that yanks them over. For the Warden, this is Frozen Gate, which you drop on the floor and wait for them to walk over it. For the Necro this is Beckoning Armor, which requires them to hit you, and then your armor buff pulls them in. For Nightblades, Sorcs, and Templars, your option is Silver Leash from the Fighter's Guild skill line.

So, at that point, each tank needs a version of this effect (and Wardens are probably going to use Leash anyway, because Gate is a pain to manage.)

So, you could say, "well, Wardens, Necros, and DKs are all carbon copies of one another." But, that really doesn't apply at an overview level. The way these classes actually play are radically different.

There's a lot of ability overlap, where one ability could be considered similar to another, but when you actually step past looking at the abilities one at a time, and examine how the classes behave overall, you see some serious differences in how they play.

Now, in your defense, a lot of this stuff isn't immediately apparent. Classes develop their identity as you level, so they do start out very samey, but become more unique as you advance. However, these are very different classes.

The necro's tether mechanic that was introduced is unique - damage in a line that starts from an original point on the ground but can be positioned by you moving around.
Sorcerer's Dedric Curse and pet interactions are a unique class mechanic
Sorcerer's Crystal Frag procs are a unique mechanic
Nightblade's Cloak skill is a unique mechanic
Nightblade's spectral bow proc is a unique mechanic
Nightblade's Shade was a unique mechanic
Dragonknight's chain pull was a unique mechanic (until the Silver Leash got added to Fighters Guild)

So there are plenty of unique ways to design classes, and there is no need for the level of copy-pasting that is clearly going on in many class skills. Two-handers don't get a single-target DoT like DW does, nor a ground AoE like Bow does, yet many of the class skills are basically copies of the same thing. Necro is in the unfortunately situation that most of its class skills have been done already by other classes before it, and because it's stuck in this weird place between trying really hard to not feel like a pet sorc or a warden.

Thanks, and one of my main problems with necro is the ultimate in the tank skill line. Its extremely similar to the sorcerers skill line where they both have a effect for heavy and light attacks. A really simple fix for this would to allow you to actually be a bone goliath that you see so commonly, I mean. Even the main necromancer in Elswheyr, when you fight him he becomes a giant bone goliath and summons skeletons. THAT could've been the ultimate for necromancer. But instead all it does is enlarge your player, reskin it. And give a minor effect for heavy and light attacks.

Aertew wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Aertew wrote: »

-Classes arent that unique. Both Necromancer and Warden have far too many abilities that share similarties. Heck, I found abilities necromancer had that came from dragonknight and sorcerer.

Summon an animal/undead creature that rushes forward and does AoE damage
Shoot a glowing bird/skull for single target damage
Summon an armor of bones/fiery spikes for defence
Place a circular AoE of graves/lightning/ice spikes on the ground
Harvest dead corpses for stamina/ultimate
Place a rune/totem on the ground for protection
Sacrifice your spirit/blood to heal an ally

If you squint even a little, you'll clearly notice that a ton of ESO class skills are minor variations on the same thing.

The problem here is, it becomes seriously reductive. "Shoot a projectile at a single target for damage?" Well ****, that's every class, and almost every weapon in the game, including some melee ones. "Clearly, the Necromancer's Skull is a ripoff of Dual Wield's throwing Knife." Wait, what?

Clearly, the personal armor buffs are all the same, even though one can be morphed to have a damage shield or damage nearby foes, one applies to multiple targets, and the final one can be morphed to pull enemies towards you, or generate a corpse on expiration. So, yeah, that's all the same, and we know they're the same because they all have completely different secondary effects.... right.

I mean, there is a point where, if you want to perform a role, you need certain things. Let's talk tanks for a second:

The armor buffs aren't necessary. Cool, but you don't need them.

Your tank does need a way to pull targets to you. For the DK, this is Chains, which is a single target ability that yanks them over. For the Warden, this is Frozen Gate, which you drop on the floor and wait for them to walk over it. For the Necro this is Beckoning Armor, which requires them to hit you, and then your armor buff pulls them in. For Nightblades, Sorcs, and Templars, your option is Silver Leash from the Fighter's Guild skill line.

So, at that point, each tank needs a version of this effect (and Wardens are probably going to use Leash anyway, because Gate is a pain to manage.)

So, you could say, "well, Wardens, Necros, and DKs are all carbon copies of one another." But, that really doesn't apply at an overview level. The way these classes actually play are radically different.

There's a lot of ability overlap, where one ability could be considered similar to another, but when you actually step past looking at the abilities one at a time, and examine how the classes behave overall, you see some serious differences in how they play.

Now, in your defense, a lot of this stuff isn't immediately apparent. Classes develop their identity as you level, so they do start out very samey, but become more unique as you advance. However, these are very different classes.

I get what you mean, but classes should be able to unique even when you just start out, the warden's bird and necromancers skull can be separated by maybe giving the necromancer an ability where a bone shoots out the ground instead of throwing a skull. For warden maybe have the bird the same, but when it hits a target it applies a short DOT around 2 seconds, as the bird pecks at the target. I already solved the problem for 2 abilities, so having actual developers create and code classes shouldn't have a problem with being creative.

So, having unique classes is a viable goal, but it's not one ESO is after. That's a top level design decision, and everything else, on the class front, would filter down from there.

The biggest problem is that, a fully unique class at character creation means a player has a harder time getting a feel for what the game itself plays like. This isn't, inherently, wrong. Many games do have classes that are differentiated at character creation, but that often comes at the expense of having full freedom to shape your character.

For example, the Firaxis XCOM reboots have very unique classes at character creation (and, yes, while these are technically strategy games, each character is, functionally, built like an RPG character.) Your heavies will play very differently from your support, who will play very different from your snipers/sharpshooters. The trade off is, your heavies cannot fill in as effective healers (in contrast to your Supports), your Assault cannot lock down an area the way your sharpshooters can, and none of your characters can control enemy placement the way your Skirmishers can. The games offer a lot of personality to your unit classes, but that comes at the expense of flexability.

In contrast, in ESO, any class really can fill any role. As a result, your Sorc needs to be able to go from being a DPS to a Tank without functionally altering the skills they have access to in class. (Note, you will have different skills selected, but you need access to those skills in your toolkit.)

Part of the way ESO achieves this is by having a large pool of common abilities that all classes can pull from. This is a major problem with Nightblade, Templar, Sorc, and DK stam characters, who will frequently pull the bulk of their abilities from the common weapon, guild, and PvP skill pools. It's not fair to say a Stamblade and Stamsorc are functionally interchangeable, because they're not, but they will share a lot of skills on their bars.

Conversely, even when you're staying within a single class, you will have a radically different experience. For example: a Stam, Mag, Healer, and Tank Warden will all play very differently, and each has its own unique identity in play. That said, when you take that same Stamden, and compare it to a Stamplar, you're going to see some familiar names popping back up. (I'm focusing on stam here, because that is the role where this is most pronounced.)

Would it be possible to have radically different experiences for each class? Actually, not really, at least within the context of what ESO is trying to do. For example, if you removed that basic projectile attack ability from the classes in favor of something more unique... people would just migrate to the out-of-class version of that available to everyone. So, instead of having birds, vampire's bane, flaming murder skull, strife, you'd see people just using force pulse... and we'd have the stam problem. There's distinctions, but everything feels the same, because everyone's running the same ability.

So, it's a valid outlook, but doesn't really fit with the way ESO is designed, or the goals in mind.

bluebird wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Aertew wrote: »

-Classes arent that unique. Both Necromancer and Warden have far too many abilities that share similarties. Heck, I found abilities necromancer had that came from dragonknight and sorcerer.

Summon an animal/undead creature that rushes forward and does AoE damage
Shoot a glowing bird/skull for single target damage
Summon an armor of bones/fiery spikes for defence
Place a circular AoE of graves/lightning/ice spikes on the ground
Harvest dead corpses for stamina/ultimate
Place a rune/totem on the ground for protection
Sacrifice your spirit/blood to heal an ally

If you squint even a little, you'll clearly notice that a ton of ESO class skills are minor variations on the same thing.

The problem here is, it becomes seriously reductive. "Shoot a projectile at a single target for damage?" Well ****, that's every class, and almost every weapon in the game, including some melee ones. "Clearly, the Necromancer's Skull is a ripoff of Dual Wield's throwing Knife." Wait, what?

Clearly, the personal armor buffs are all the same, even though one can be morphed to have a damage shield or damage nearby foes, one applies to multiple targets, and the final one can be morphed to pull enemies towards you, or generate a corpse on expiration. So, yeah, that's all the same, and we know they're the same because they all have completely different secondary effects.... right.

I mean, there is a point where, if you want to perform a role, you need certain things. Let's talk tanks for a second:

The armor buffs aren't necessary. Cool, but you don't need them.

Your tank does need a way to pull targets to you. For the DK, this is Chains, which is a single target ability that yanks them over. For the Warden, this is Frozen Gate, which you drop on the floor and wait for them to walk over it. For the Necro this is Beckoning Armor, which requires them to hit you, and then your armor buff pulls them in. For Nightblades, Sorcs, and Templars, your option is Silver Leash from the Fighter's Guild skill line.

So, at that point, each tank needs a version of this effect (and Wardens are probably going to use Leash anyway, because Gate is a pain to manage.)

So, you could say, "well, Wardens, Necros, and DKs are all carbon copies of one another." But, that really doesn't apply at an overview level. The way these classes actually play are radically different.

There's a lot of ability overlap, where one ability could be considered similar to another, but when you actually step past looking at the abilities one at a time, and examine how the classes behave overall, you see some serious differences in how they play.

Now, in your defense, a lot of this stuff isn't immediately apparent. Classes develop their identity as you level, so they do start out very samey, but become more unique as you advance. However, these are very different classes.

The necro's tether mechanic that was introduced is unique - damage in a line that starts from an original point on the ground but can be positioned by you moving around.
Sorcerer's Dedric Curse and pet interactions are a unique class mechanic
Sorcerer's Crystal Frag procs are a unique mechanic
Nightblade's Cloak skill is a unique mechanic
Nightblade's spectral bow proc is a unique mechanic
Nightblade's Shade was a unique mechanic
Dragonknight's chain pull was a unique mechanic (until the Silver Leash got added to Fighters Guild)

So there are plenty of unique ways to design classes, and there is no need for the level of copy-pasting that is clearly going on in many class skills. Two-handers don't get a single-target DoT like DW does, nor a ground AoE like Bow does, yet many of the class skills are basically copies of the same thing. Necro is in the unfortunately situation that most of its class skills have been done already by other classes before it, and because it's stuck in this weird place between trying really hard to not feel like a pet sorc or a warden.

So far as it goes, the sorc's pet mechanics are unique.

So, Templars and DKs don't have any pets at all.

Sorcs have toggled pets, which chew up bar slots on both bars. And, then ways to manage them. They've got an ult pet, but it's single bar, timed, and doesn't move.

Nightblades have a timed pet. I forget the morphs, except that one does allow the player to reposition to the pet once it's been cast.

Wardens have a pair of pets. One is, functionally, just a personal buff, so we can ignore it. The other one is a toggle, like the Sorc, but also an ultimate, meaning, if used, it locks you out of having another ultimate. Superficially this is a very different decision from using pets on a Sorc. On a Sorc, you're asking if you really need all five skill slots on your bar, and giving up one of those is a relatively minor cost. On a Warden, you're asking to give up the ability to have another Ultimate. That's huge. Fortunately, or unfortunately (depending on your perspective), the Bear is a very good ult, but you're making a very different choice to run one.

Necromancers are spamming out pets constantly, as part of their rotation, then using the corpses of those pets, after they've died, to fuel other abilities. With the Sorc and Warden, your pets are your companions, you want them up and alive. With a necromancer your pets are fundamentally disposable. You want them to die, in fact, because it gives you more options to use their corpses after they're gone.

I get where, at the top level, you could look at the Sorc, Necro, and Warden, and say, "they're all the same," but these three classes have radically different relationships with their pets.