Why is there no role lock for dungeon finder?

daedalusAI · June 2019

On principle I despise people queueing for tank/heal, when in fact they're just dps trying to get a fast queue.

Why is there no role check in place which only allows people to queue as tank/heal after certain conditions, e.g. role-appropriate skills/spells are on their bars, have been met?

Hixtory · June 2019

That can't be done, "Play as you want" is the moto for ZOS. In reality a tank will just need a taunt (pierce armor or inner fire) to do the job.

Now, if there are dps joining VETdungeons with roles they dont fit, I would be mad too, so that's why "Vote to kick" exist.

If it's normal, who cares really...

kargen27 · June 2019

People who want to jump queue will slot a taunt or a heal then once in group will go back to their original bar.

The game would also have to make a distinction between pre-made and pug groups.

daedalusAI · June 2019

Hixtory wrote: »

That can't be done, "Play as you want" is the moto for ZOS. In reality a tank will just need a taunt (pierce armor or inner fire) to do the job.

Now, if there are dps joining VETdungeons with roles they dont fit, I would be mad too, so that's why "Vote to kick" exist.

If it's normal, who cares really...

Intriguing answer:

By your account if I'd be taking my sorc into a normal dungeon with light armor, no tank/support skills/spells but a single taunt I'm doing fine
Why are you expressing the complete opposite opinion if it's a vet dungeon? The difficulty shouldn't matter
Vote to kick only works with the premise of 3 votes if its a dungeon

ZonasArch · June 2019

daedalusAI wrote: »

On principle I despise people queueing for tank/heal, when in fact they're just dps trying to get a fast queue.

Why is there no role check in place which only allows people to queue as tank/heal after certain conditions, e.g. role-appropriate skills/spells are on their bars, have been met?

I have 6 characters that can do decent enough DPS (20k+) and heals, or tank and heals. Sometimes I wanna run one role, sometimes the other, depends on the group. Locking isn't gonna solve your problem and is just going to create new ones. People with DPS-only will be locked into fake tanks and that's about the only thing that would change
Silly idea.

MakeMeUhSamich · June 2019

Most content doesn’t even require a tank or healer. DLC Vet content generally requires a decent tank. I “heal” normal dungeons solely with my Matriarch.

I’ve earned the Worm Wizard personality from vet Fang Lair and we used Tank + 3 DPS. Healers are useless against 1 Shot mechanics, which ZOS seems intent upon using.

Trials are a different thing altogether. But, GF doesn’t include those.

Tasear · June 2019

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Most content doesn’t even require a tank or healer. DLC Vet content generally requires a decent tank. I “heal” normal dungeons solely with my Matriarch.

I’ve earned the Worm Wizard personality from vet Fang Lair and we used Tank + 3 DPS. Healers are useless against 1 Shot mechanics, which ZOS seems intent upon using.

Trials are a different thing altogether. But, GF doesn’t include those.

@ZOS_Finn ^

Taleof2Cities · June 2019

If you have requirements for the dungeon or other players, you don't use the dungeon finder, @daedalusAI.

Find a pre-made group instead ...

sionIV · June 2019

daedalusAI wrote: »

On principle I despise people queueing for tank/heal, when in fact they're just dps trying to get a fast queue.

Why is there no role check in place which only allows people to queue as tank/heal after certain conditions, e.g. role-appropriate skills/spells are on their bars, have been met?

If we're going to implement a feature like this, there should be one for DPS too.

Jhalin · June 2019

sionIV wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

On principle I despise people queueing for tank/heal, when in fact they're just dps trying to get a fast queue.

Why is there no role check in place which only allows people to queue as tank/heal after certain conditions, e.g. role-appropriate skills/spells are on their bars, have been met?

If we're going to implement a feature like this, there should be one for DPS too.

We seriously need a DPS course required before Dugeon Finder can be used. Too many players don’t learn anything from any quests because nothing is a threat and there’s no penalty for extremely low dps or bad positioning that will be weighing down a group later.

Locking role tags doesn’t stop the fake tank issue, but the game’s dungeons are low damage on normal so you only feel the need for tanks and healers on vet

SoLooney · June 2019

Dungeons dont even require a proper healer, 3 dps and a tank or 4 dps is good enough for non dlc dungeons

If people are making a big deal out of fake tanks and fake healers, then something needs to be done about fake dps, nothing more frustrating to a proper tank or healer than seeing clueless players spamming light and heavy attacks and not using a proper rotation, taking 10 plus minutes to kill a single boss or trash pull

So it goes both ways, I'd much rather have a good dps as a fake tank or healer than a 5k dps queuing as a dps

JumpmanLane · June 2019

K I’m max cp and a pal of mine (prob the best MagDk PcNA) wanted to do a random normal on his Necro. So we q and get 2 low levels. I’m like “we gonna wait for em I think they’re doing the quests?” He’s like “f them! They got a 1 Star to stand beside” (me). They raced along after him anyways.

So, he leaves. I stay in group went afk or something come back I’m in crypt of hearts 2 with the two low levels and a cp 500 tank who can actually tank. We get to that one boss whose mitigation rises if you kill it’s adds and the tank bless his heart is yelling out mechanics like “no don’t kill the adds.”

Now I could solo CoH2, THAT boss and everything in it on NORMAL for craps sake. I said “watch this” and burned the thang down.

After we finished the dungeon I thanked everyone (for NOTHING). I didn’t need them fools. But there’s no reason to be mean in dungeons. I made two low level friends even. (We call them bunnies). So I got two bunnies out of the deal too.

Group finder and pugging dungeons and ultimately playing the game should be fun. I’m a dps but my MagDk is tanky af. I’ll even toss a fool a cauterize in a pinch. I’ve queued as a tank before. No complaints. I’ve even answered requests in zone for a tank with “Well I’m a fake tank can I go?” Folks are like “Hell yeah!” And I pug along. People need to relax, particularly doing normal and vet non dlc dungeons. Have fun.

James-Wayne · June 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

sionIV wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

On principle I despise people queueing for tank/heal, when in fact they're just dps trying to get a fast queue.

Why is there no role check in place which only allows people to queue as tank/heal after certain conditions, e.g. role-appropriate skills/spells are on their bars, have been met?

If we're going to implement a feature like this, there should be one for DPS too.

We seriously need a DPS course required before Dugeon Finder can be used. Too many players don’t learn anything from any quests because nothing is a threat and there’s no penalty for extremely low dps or bad positioning that will be weighing down a group later.

Locking role tags doesn’t stop the fake tank issue, but the game’s dungeons are low damage on normal so you only feel the need for tanks and healers on vet

I've been saying this for years, we need a dungeon tutorial so players can understand the different roles and what is required of you for that role, at minimum.

AcadianPaladin · June 2019

I agree with OP though the ability to implement any sort of checks/enforcement is vexing indeed beyond the existing vote kick.

I also think it matters in Normal for two reasons:
1. Why reward those who lie about their role while penalizing those who are honest and trying to play by the rules?
2. DPS, tanks and healers all need to learn their role and how it interacts with other roles. Where should new players learn to do this if not in Normal?

Jhalin · June 2019

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I agree with OP though the ability to implement any sort of checks/enforcement is vexing indeed beyond the existing vote kick.

I also think it matters in Normal for two reasons:
1. Why reward those who lie about their role while penalizing those who are honest and trying to play by the rules?
2. DPS, tanks and healers all need to learn their role and how it interacts with other roles. Where should new players learn to do this if not in Normal?

The problem with 2 is that tanks (the full shebang of soak damage, control adds, position the boss the right way) is just plain not needed in normal. Even in the DLCs sadly enough, I’ve seen the Symphony of Blades hit literally 0hp before any adds or any wall were summoned. It didn’t even do its spinning attack.

I’m still bummed I didn’t get the screenshot since til then I thought it would auto freeze at 30% to teleport the group

Healers are low priority in anything but trials, because in Normal damage is so low you can get by healthily on a self-heal, and in vet the biggest threats are one-shots anyway so a healer can’t help with those anyway. I think trials are designed in a good way to require healers especially damage mitigation tool, debuff and buff support, and the healing itself.

In Normal healer is better off using all damage skills while tossing in Combat Prayer and Mutagen. Sad but mostly true with the except of a few DLC dungeons

AlnilamE · June 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I agree with OP though the ability to implement any sort of checks/enforcement is vexing indeed beyond the existing vote kick.

I also think it matters in Normal for two reasons:
1. Why reward those who lie about their role while penalizing those who are honest and trying to play by the rules?
2. DPS, tanks and healers all need to learn their role and how it interacts with other roles. Where should new players learn to do this if not in Normal?

The problem with 2 is that tanks (the full shebang of soak damage, control adds, position the boss the right way) is just plain not needed in normal. Even in the DLCs sadly enough, I’ve seen the Symphony of Blades hit literally 0hp before any adds or any wall were summoned. It didn’t even do its spinning attack.

I’m still bummed I didn’t get the screenshot since til then I thought it would auto freeze at 30% to teleport the group

Healers are low priority in anything but trials, because in Normal damage is so low you can get by healthily on a self-heal, and in vet the biggest threats are one-shots anyway so a healer can’t help with those anyway. I think trials are designed in a good way to require healers especially damage mitigation tool, debuff and buff support, and the healing itself.

In Normal healer is better off using all damage skills while tossing in Combat Prayer and Mutagen. Sad but mostly true with the except of a few DLC dungeons

That may be true for experienced players, but everyone has to start somewhere.

If we take a couple of extra minutes in normal dungeons to follow mechanics, people will be far better prepared when they get to vet.

Now, you can go in and just throw combat prayer and shrooms and then DPS, but I expect the healer to heal if necessary and the tank to keep the bosses where they're supposed to be. If they are doing that, they can DPS as much as they like.

FrancisCrawford · June 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

In Normal healer is better off using all damage skills while tossing in Combat Prayer and Mutagen. Sad but mostly true with the except of a few DLC dungeons

I'd add that SPC is a little better for the group than a selfish set, healers should run Elemental Drain, and I also bring Ward Ally when I'm healing. Indeed, my standard healing gear is SPC/Worm/Earthgore.

But yeah -- I did a random normal on my new necro, in my usual magicka leveling gear; she was the lowest-level character in the group; she still pulled my common 40%+ of DPS. Maybe the others were truly new players (I brought the only necro) and didn't have CP?

FierceSam · June 2019

Because fundamentally it’s up to players to

Be honest - every fake tank/healer KNOWS they are being dishonest to some extent (I’ve gone fake tank on 3 and even 4 dps runs with premade guild groups in group finder so the only people we were ‘fooling’ were ourselves). They have to live with this. It can’t be that enjoyable a gaming experience knowing you are a *****

Police this - either fake tank/healer will make no difference to the effectiveness of the group (in which case is it a problem at all? In our premade 4 dps groups it wasn’t) or group will combine to remove fake player.

I don’t want ZOS’s role to be one of a benevolent fascist dictator, controlling more and more of my choices simply because a few blowhhards can’t play nicely with others.

Given ZOS can’t currently provide even a basic group finder, asking them to develop one that is more complex is very optimistic.

Minno · June 2019

Though if you can tank+kite with dps, and it results in a quicker clear, that's one benefit of having an extra dps roll up in the que.

Though that means the healer should be ready to roll heavy and get ready to rez lol.

robertbmilesb14_ESO · June 2019

Tasear wrote: »

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Most content doesn’t even require a tank or healer. DLC Vet content generally requires a decent tank. I “heal” normal dungeons solely with my Matriarch.

I’ve earned the Worm Wizard personality from vet Fang Lair and we used Tank + 3 DPS. Healers are useless against 1 Shot mechanics, which ZOS seems intent upon using.

Trials are a different thing altogether. But, GF doesn’t include those.

@ZOS_Finn ^

Or you can do 3 DPS and 1 Healer for normals... I do this sometimes with guildies.

Basically you need someone who can soak up damage being splashed around

.

Fur_like_snow · June 2019

As someone had already pointed out most DLC Vet dungeons don’t require a healer because of one shot mechanics. Personally I think ZoS should move away from the traditional tank/healer/2DPS archetype and just embrace what the player base is already doing with a tank/3DPS or 4DPS setup.

WrathOfInnos · June 2019

The problem is that there’s a range of any role. Is the tank required to taunt just bosses or every enemy? Any obligations to CC or debuff? Is the healer expected to put out a reasonable amount of healing over time or must they heal through all incoming damage that isn’t a one-shot (like people standing in red for no reason). What about any group buffs, I value a healer with magickasteal over one with heals. Do DPS have to be doing damage to fit into their role? What is the minimum then?

Too many unanswered questions that are somewhat arbitrary and vary based on the content. No real way to define exactly what each person must do. For further optimization you need to form a premade group.

Crixus8000 · June 2019

I don't see an issue with this on normal though. I like doing normal pledges when I need keys and I usually search as a tank even though I dps, but I always slot and taunt and make sure I do my job. I have just had too many times where I had very low level players joing and light attack all the way through, no I don't mind since I can make it go a decent pace.

I searched once as a tank when I was actually a dps and noticed I wasn't pulling any aggro because one of the dps was actually a tank lol.

disintegr8 · June 2019

Pugging sucks and is a last resort for me.

Drako_Ei · June 2019

Minno wrote: »

Though if you can tank+kite with dps, and it results in a quicker clear, that's one benefit of having an extra dps roll up in the que.

Though that means the healer should be ready to roll heavy and get ready to rez lol.

No thats the wrost thing that i have ever heard today.

If tank kites you cut my dps in half basically

ryzen_gamer_gal · June 2019

Stop whining. It's annoying

D0PAMINE · June 2019

JumpmanLane wrote: »

K I’m max cp and a pal of mine (prob the best MagDk PcNA) wanted to do a random normal on his Necro. So we q and get 2 low levels. I’m like “we gonna wait for em I think they’re doing the quests?” He’s like “f them! They got a 1 Star to stand beside” (me). They raced along after him anyways.

So, he leaves. I stay in group went afk or something come back I’m in crypt of hearts 2 with the two low levels and a cp 500 tank who can actually tank. We get to that one boss whose mitigation rises if you kill it’s adds and the tank bless his heart is yelling out mechanics like “no don’t kill the adds.”

Now I could solo CoH2, THAT boss and everything in it on NORMAL for craps sake. I said “watch this” and burned the thang down.

After we finished the dungeon I thanked everyone (for NOTHING). I didn’t need them fools. But there’s no reason to be mean in dungeons. I made two low level friends even. (We call them bunnies). So I got two bunnies out of the deal too.

Group finder and pugging dungeons and ultimately playing the game should be fun. I’m a dps but my MagDk is tanky af. I’ll even toss a fool a cauterize in a pinch. I’ve queued as a tank before. No complaints. I’ve even answered requests in zone for a tank with “Well I’m a fake tank can I go?” Folks are like “Hell yeah!” And I pug along. People need to relax, particularly doing normal and vet non dlc dungeons. Have fun.

I do the same thing on my mDK. They are absurdly tanky. Love it.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · June 2019

daedalusAI wrote: »

Hixtory wrote: »

That can't be done, "Play as you want" is the moto for ZOS. In reality a tank will just need a taunt (pierce armor or inner fire) to do the job.

Now, if there are dps joining VETdungeons with roles they dont fit, I would be mad too, so that's why "Vote to kick" exist.

If it's normal, who cares really...

Intriguing answer:
By your account if I'd be taking my sorc into a normal dungeon with light armor, no tank/support skills/spells but a single taunt I'm doing fine

Why are you expressing the complete opposite opinion if it's a vet dungeon? The difficulty shouldn't matter

Vote to kick only works with the premise of 3 votes if its a dungeon

Because tank and heal are almost useless in most normal but in vet they are more useful

daemonios · June 2019

JumpmanLane wrote: »

K I’m max cp and a pal of mine (prob the best MagDk PcNA) wanted to do a random normal on his Necro. So we q and get 2 low levels. I’m like “we gonna wait for em I think they’re doing the quests?” He’s like “f them! They got a 1 Star to stand beside” (me). They raced along after him anyways.

So, he leaves. I stay in group went afk or something come back I’m in crypt of hearts 2 with the two low levels and a cp 500 tank who can actually tank. We get to that one boss whose mitigation rises if you kill it’s adds and the tank bless his heart is yelling out mechanics like “no don’t kill the adds.”

Now I could solo CoH2, THAT boss and everything in it on NORMAL for craps sake. I said “watch this” and burned the thang down.

After we finished the dungeon I thanked everyone (for NOTHING). I didn’t need them fools. But there’s no reason to be mean in dungeons. I made two low level friends even. (We call them bunnies). So I got two bunnies out of the deal too.

Group finder and pugging dungeons and ultimately playing the game should be fun. I’m a dps but my MagDk is tanky af. I’ll even toss a fool a cauterize in a pinch. I’ve queued as a tank before. No complaints. I’ve even answered requests in zone for a tank with “Well I’m a fake tank can I go?” Folks are like “Hell yeah!” And I pug along. People need to relax, particularly doing normal and vet non dlc dungeons. Have fun.

Are you trolling?

- If you went AFK you couldn't have confirmed a new queue, so you couldn't have come back and suddenly be in CoH2 (unless you have an auto-confirm queue add-on).
- I dont know any boss in CoH2 with the increasing mitigation. What you describe sounds like the side boss in Fungal Grotto 2, the shepherd with 3 spiders.
- Are you really bragging about being able to solo a *normal* dungeon, then being all patronizing about how much better you are than low level players? You say PUGs should be fun, but it seems to me you're the sort of people who make it very much *not* fun. I was away from the game for 2 years and I'm honestly *hating* PUG groups. Not just because of the unprepared people. In fact, I'm more annoyed at people who don't care about playing, they just want to race to the end and pick up their carrot. No hello, no waiting for anyone ever, and when some inevitably f*** up because they're treating a vet dungeon like it's a normal one, they have no shortage of opinions on how everyone other than them sucks.

srfrogg23 · June 2019

daedalusAI wrote: »

On principle I despise people queueing for tank/heal, when in fact they're just dps trying to get a fast queue.

Why is there no role check in place which only allows people to queue as tank/heal after certain conditions, e.g. role-appropriate skills/spells are on their bars, have been met?

I think it's a question of whether or not it can be done without breaking something else. The number of builds that actually work for the various roles are pretty numerous when taking into account all the set bonuses and skill combos.

Heck, with the right equipment, you could theoretically tank in cloth armor just fine. Having a system in place that is flexible enough to account for that but still able to filter out the people that misuse the system by signing up for tanks as dps, or whatever, is a pretty hefty proposition. I just don't know if it's a realistic expectation in this game.

Ysbriel · June 2019

Its not like you couldn’t switch skills and gear once you are inside a dungeon. People use all type of skills and gear combinations to play this game and putting that type of filter would just kill that.