No Meaningful (Gear) Progression

Izariel · May 2019

Something that really bothers me about this game is that there is very little meaningful progression past CP 160. The gear you get when you are 160 could very well be the same gear you are using at 660 months later.

This is a problem. All we have is horizontal progression, but little to no vertical progression. Another problem is legendary gear doesn’t feel legendary for the most part. I could upgrade one of my items and make it yellow and give it a bit more base stats but that is all it does. I don’t know that I have ever had a yellow item drop for me (not even sure they do).

Is there anything being done on the gear front to bring back a sense of progression or do I look forward to using my same gear months from now?

Wing · May 2019

horizontal progression is the ideal kind of progression, it introduces new things while respecting the effort and investment of the player up until that point.

or would you rather the 9ish expansion sets be the end all be all because of a few arbitrary number increase and EVERY other of the hundreds of sets in game be worthless? if it makes it better we can add prefix's like "mythic" or "platinum" that way you REALLY know all your other gear is crap.

if you want everything you worked for over the past years made worthless every couple months, there are a couple MMO's I can point you towards.

Avran_Sylt · May 2019

ESO is a casual MMO.

You get to endgame, leave for a few months (obligations or just burnout), and you've got new content to try out without having had to regrind your stuff for another couple days (or weeks) of time investment.

It's nice, but like you say, not a good grind for hardcore gamers.

I suppose if you want to be pointed towards the real Endgame, that would be Housing/Fashion, or PvP Set Theory-crafting.

SirAndy · May 2019

Wing wrote: »

horizontal progression is the ideal kind of progression, it introduces new things while respecting the effort and investment of the player up until that point.

Donny_Vito · May 2019

Is there anything being done on the gear front to bring back a sense of progression or do I look forward to using my same gear months from now?

The real endgame for me was building different sets for different content. This is even more prevalent for PC players who can change sets at the click of a button with add-ons. But different endgame content requires the tweaking of sets to be as proficient as possible. You might have to use different skills/gear in vCR compared to vMoL and getting that different gear to all gold requires a lot of grinding. Not to mention PvP sets for different play-styles (solo, small coordinated group, or zerging). The grind is there for gear, you just need to see it.

Wing · May 2019

I would also like to point out that progression in ESO is a combination of a few things

character specific (attributes, passives, skills, class, race, etc.)

gear (weight, sets, traits, location, etc.)

and CP (bleh)

CP was supposed to be the "progression" option, instead of gear, and as a concept that's a great idea for a number of reasons I wont get into, but like I said, great idea.

however the execution has been poor, the system itself is not fun, nor does it include any kind of meaningful bonus or decisions, nor does it include anything that really alters your playstyle. its just flat stat bonuses, that's really boring.

but ZOS has realized this and is going to re work the system, they don't quite know what there going to do yet, but I hope we end up with more of a talent tree / sphere grid / path of exile style system.

and it becomes a rich and deep 3rd pillar to our character and there abilities. rather than a collective of tiny % stat increases.

Facefister · May 2019

Izariel wrote: »

[...]This is a problem.[...]

It is not.

khajiitNPC · May 2019

I personally think a cool way to implement higher level gear would be to make it a 7 item craftable set (that require 9 traits) that gives you a third bar. Sort of like class evolutions. 6 craftable sets that synergize with the class (but another class can wear the set but it wouldn’t do as well) I think it’d make max lvl crafters more relevant. And add less homogenization to classes as well as making current gear still viable.

technohic · May 2019

Im not sure why players need spoon fed progression. I could say that my gear has progressed more all the time as I find better builds and upgrade gear. You're basically asking for a treadmill when there is a wide open field to run in.

bulbousb16_ESO · May 2019

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

ESO is a casual MMO.

ESO is an MMORPG. Min-maxers that grind for gear forget that part.

AlnilamE · May 2019

Honestly, it's one of the best things about ESO. An expansion comes out and you can mix the new stuff with the old to see how it works.

Or you can slack and just wear what you've been wearing for the last year and a half and worry about new gear in the next expansion.

With now 11 characters, it already takes a fair amount of time to gear them out properly. I don't need to do it all over again every six months.

Skwor · May 2019

Wing wrote: »

horizontal progression is the ideal kind of progression, it introduces new things while respecting the effort and investment of the player up until that point.

or would you rather the 9ish expansion sets be the end all be all because of a few arbitrary number increase and EVERY other of the hundreds of sets in game be worthless? if it makes it better we can add prefix's like "mythic" or "platinum" that way you REALLY know all your other gear is crap.

if you want everything you worked for over the past years made worthless every couple months, there are a couple MMO's I can point you towards.

Horizontal progression is garbage. It leaves players feeling like they never get more powerful and if you think that is ideal you are not paying attention. Lack of vertical progression kills MMOs due to boredom. To much kills due to turning away new players. ESO is starting to reach the boredom threshold that is why posts like this are popping up.

This is the result of stopping CP raises, weak system or not it was way better than nothing which is what we have now. Most MMO players play to gain power, period!

idk · May 2019

I think OP is confusing a level cap with tiered gear. CP 160 is basically our level cap. It directly translates to v16 which was our level before the vet ranks were removed.

Actual end game gear progression, which OP mentions in the title is about tiered gear levels. Most MMORPGs I have played have had gear progression is with tiered gear but they also have to reset the playing field every year or more. ESO has a tiered gear model to a lesser extent and makes more sense.

This tiered model is special weapons like vMA and perfected trial gear. This does not cause the same issues has having true tiered gear/true gear progression..

THEDKEXPERIENCE · May 2019

Please allow me to explain what would happen if CP 180 or 200 or 800 gear were implemented.

- this forum would be on fire with different variations on “waaaaaaaa, I spent millions of gold and now it’s wasted” posts.

- if ZOS were to follow the similar implementation as they did with max gear when from VR14 to CP160 you’d have to grind for months to get a full set of gear. This new Ingot, we’ll call it absurdium, would likely require 150 to 200 mats of absurdium for one piece but - pro tip - would only be available to hardcore farmers for at least 3 months as each piece of CP180 or 800 loot simply dropped 1 refined absurdium.

- the months long grind or millions of gold you spent getting up to all absurdium plated gear would give you a total DPS increase of like 28 points rendering months of work nearly pointless as you still treat all the content the same but now you’re able to do it in only 99.8% of the time it did before!

- lastly, all of this would then be rendered moot 3 months later by a new patch that brings us double absurdium drops and a vendor that converts alliance points into absurdium ingots ensuring that “lazy gamers” get what you worked 3 months for about 10 days later quite easily.

Inaya · May 2019

Skwor wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

horizontal progression is the ideal kind of progression, it introduces new things while respecting the effort and investment of the player up until that point.

or would you rather the 9ish expansion sets be the end all be all because of a few arbitrary number increase and EVERY other of the hundreds of sets in game be worthless? if it makes it better we can add prefix's like "mythic" or "platinum" that way you REALLY know all your other gear is crap.

if you want everything you worked for over the past years made worthless every couple months, there are a couple MMO's I can point you towards.

Horizontal progression is garbage. It leaves players feeling like they never get more powerful and if you think that is ideal you are not paying attention. Lack of vertical progression kills MMOs due to boredom. To much kills due to turning away new players. ESO is starting to reach the boredom threshold that is why posts like this are popping up.

Totally disagree. Working for something and having it made useless every 3-4 months is NOT progression, it's a hamster wheel designed for /timeplayed. It lends no real interest or story and in my opinion is there due to a lack of REAL content. I much prefer being able to replace my gear with pieces from a new zone to see how I can make things work together.

There is sooooo much to do in this game we don't need a hamster wheel to keep us "occupied"

Jhalin · May 2019

Gear progression is fine, vertical progression goes through quality tiers, and horizontal progression appears as traits and alternate gearsets. Gold gear (specifically jewelry) drops from veteran trial, gold armor doesn’t drop but can be purchased from the Cyro vendor. Gear quality also effects the value of 5 piece bonuses, traits, and armor, which yes is stats, but so would your level locked gear only bring different stats with a full regrind attached.

The gear grind is a big thing in ESO, but it doesn’t punish you with a no viable build the moment something new comes out, like with other MMOs

srfrogg23 · May 2019

Izariel wrote: »

Something that really bothers me about this game is that there is very little meaningful progression past CP 160. The gear you get when you are 160 could very well be the same gear you are using at 660 months later.

This is a problem. All we have is horizontal progression, but little to no vertical progression. Another problem is legendary gear doesn’t feel legendary for the most part. I could upgrade one of my items and make it yellow and give it a bit more base stats but that is all it does. I don’t know that I have ever had a yellow item drop for me (not even sure they do).

Is there anything being done on the gear front to bring back a sense of progression or do I look forward to using my same gear months from now?

Constant vertical progression relegates content to irrelevance faster than it can be created by the devs by creating more and more power creep. It eventually leads to chronic content droughts. The content exists, but it's made useless because of overgearing the players. Look at WoW as an example of the problems associated with games based on vertical progression.

Horizontal progression with a slight curve upwards at end game is probably the longer lasting model. I don't see ESO's gear progression system as a problem. New sets offer new build combinations to tinker with to keep things fresh.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · May 2019

Here is what I will support even though I’m positive I’m in the minority. If they were to make another gear level it should only be CP level 800+ and it should cost about 1000 ingots for each piece.

And even then the reward for an all golded out set should maybe be 2 to 5% over an all golded out set of CP160 gear.

If it’s going to be done it should be done to a ridiculous extent where obtaining it is painfully arduous.

rotaugen454 · May 2019

I have 15 characters. Outfitting each for PvP, VMsA, group dungeons and specific trials is a grind enough, thank you.

SirAndy · May 2019

Skwor wrote: »

Most MMO players play to gain power, period!

Nemesis7884 · May 2019

NO NO NO

vertical gear progression is just stupid power creep, stupid additional grind - it doesnt provide ANY additional meaningful gameplay, excitement or fun - it destroys the game through powercreep and grind

look at WOW - that is ALL WOW IS - powercreep and grind

and eso has a similar problem with champion points - that is WHY they are not working and are currently re-designed

vertical progression = power creep and grind = stupid

And eso has more than enough farming as is - if they increase the item level - which brings ZERO benefits - and i have to farm all that *** again - I AM OUT - and i can tell you that 99% of my friends are as well

and its not even progression - its hamsterwheeling for dumb people - they increase an artificial number on your character sheet so you feel stronger, at the same time make all the new dungeons and monsters more difficult - so that everyhing actually stays the same and you get more grind but your numbers are higher?? How dumb have players to be.

Vertical progression is for ignorant players and lazy game designers

Nestor · May 2019

1. There is the gear you can get as zone drops at CP160.
2. There is the gear you can craft once you know enough traits, 2 to 6 months or more after you start playing
3. Then there is the gear you get doing content at CP300 OR CP500 OR CP800. Guess which is better.

These 3 tiers alone are not equivalent to each other. There are some other ways to look at this too.

However, the bottom line is, the gear you use at CP160 is not, with few exceptions, the same gear you play with months later.

Massacre_Wurm · May 2019

Thanks for OT and horizontal progression we have no ghost locations(well, almost) . People are everywhere. You doing your alliance quest and you see people farming for necropotence , spider eggs , doing wb runs or whatever.

therift · May 2019

Skwor wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

horizontal progression is the ideal kind of progression, it introduces new things while respecting the effort and investment of the player up until that point.

or would you rather the 9ish expansion sets be the end all be all because of a few arbitrary number increase and EVERY other of the hundreds of sets in game be worthless? if it makes it better we can add prefix's like "mythic" or "platinum" that way you REALLY know all your other gear is crap.

if you want everything you worked for over the past years made worthless every couple months, there are a couple MMO's I can point you towards.

Horizontal progression is garbage. It leaves players feeling like they never get more powerful and if you think that is ideal you are not paying attention. Lack of vertical progression kills MMOs due to boredom. To much kills due to turning away new players. ESO is starting to reach the boredom threshold that is why posts like this are popping up.

This is the result of stopping CP raises, weak system or not it was way better than nothing which is what we have now. Most MMO players play to gain power, period!

We had vertical gear progression and it sucked. ZoS wisely tossed that obsolete concept in the trash bin.

Gear will only carry you so far. If you want to 'feel more powerful', that's on you to improve your skills.

sionIV · May 2019

If they turn the gear progression vertical, I will be leaving the game. I've spent 14 years watching my gear in WoW become useless, as I trade in my epic set items along with legendaries, only to replace them with questing greens. It always broke my immersion that I was throwing away my legendary sword that I got from a super long and intense quest line, only to replace it with an ugly green mace that I got from a zone starting quest where I had to pick up dung.

Part of the reason that I'm enjoying ESO as much as I am, is because the horizontal gear progression. I can take a break from ESO for a couple of months, and even if a new DLC/Chapter arrives, I can still jump onto my character and play whatever content I want, without having to grind up for a new set.

siddique · May 2019

Once you grind ten VMA Inferno staves of a particular trait (no transmutation allowed in this case) you can merge them to make a CP 200 VMA Inferno Staff. Oh, you will need five Chromium Plates with that too.

hakan · May 2019

Thats the advantage of the game. Gear progression is there. Look people used to play with Yokeda bow switched to Lookethsiz or whatever but you can still play with yokeda too.There are lots of usable sets.

Not having "new expansion time! so your items are all garbage" is one of the best thing in this game. im talking about both items and item levels btw.

So i hope what you say will never happen

Ohtimbar · May 2019

I seem to recall rumors of a new quality tier beyond gold, but I've forgotten the details. I'm comfortable with things as they are, however, so I'm not bothered if it turns out to be false.

therift · May 2019

Ohtimbar wrote: »

I seem to recall rumors of a new quality tier beyond gold, but I've forgotten the details. I'm comfortable with things as they are, however, so I'm not bothered if it turns out to be false.

The rumors arise from time to time because there are abandoned materials and improvements buried in the database. Every once in a while, someone stumbles across them (or an old post asking about them) and rushes to the forum to be first to proclaim a 'new tier confirmed'.

ChefZero · May 2019

The reason why I love PvP, no need for vertical progression. It's all about people and their imagination.

Panomania · May 2019

I do like some vertical gear climb games. I have fond memories of Everquest, and the incredible storyline, trials, flagging, backflagging, etc that were a core part of that game.

In this I am in the minority. Even some players of my gaming "generation" couldnt handle such a game. The majority of todays alleged "gamers" couldnt handle such a game. Vertical gear climbs would make this game another WoW with better graphics, crafting and less content. I cant see ESO shooting themselves in the foot like that, thankfully....as much as I like elements of this game ZOS has already proven to me they would completely screw up that type game.

All that said....if its the vertical climb you're after there are plenty of games out there willing and eager to accommodate you.