I know... another account transfer post, but hear me out

Nomadic_Mind · May 2019

Long time PS4 player here, with a lot of hours and good times had on the NA server. However, recently transitioning to PC from console and has me wishing I could bring all my progress, characters, sweet loot, and most importantly all the months spent to get that master crafter. I'm not the first and won't be the last, so how can we make it happen?

I know that the response in previous posts has been that there is an issue with how data was stored/transferred and basically it came down to being a manual process and not one they could automate. I don't know the specifics, but rather than argue that point, I have a simple question. If it is a manual process then there are a number of work hours required to move one account from console to PC. If the ESO team were willing to do so, would you be willing to pay the wage of the person doing that work?

For myself, I would happily pay for the one or two hours it takes to manually copy files and transfer (wild guess at time spent here). ESO would gain an ESO Plus customer back, I would keep the progress I've made but still have purchased the base game on two platforms, and the process is not a money sink for them because I pay the hourly wage. It seems like a win-win. I think it's reasonable to say I have to purchase the base game again and while I would like to keep all the crowns and dlc I purchased on PS4, I can entertain arguments for something more middle of he road.

Who else would do this in order to transfer between platforms, and are there any sympathetic employees over at ZOS/Bethesda who would be willing to support our desire to continue our quest in the world of ESO?

deadsheepb14_ESO · May 2019

So what are we talking here? $200-500 dollars? $1000 dollars?

Nestor · May 2019

It is related to the same reason as to why NA has a character copy on the PTS on opposite weeks that Euro has a character copy. They can't add enmass to an existing database. Why they cant do this I am not sure has been explained. Something about duplicates was mentioned, but I don't think that is the whole reason.

They have no ability to manually add a new character entry to the database. The only reason they could at console release is those records were determined enmass before the conversion into a new database. As soon as that was completed that was the end of character transfers.

Nomadic_Mind · May 2019

deadsheepb14_ESO wrote: »

So what are we talking here? $200-500 dollars? $1000 dollars?

I would seriously doubt the staffing requirements to move files in this way would be that kind of absurd amount. But I can see them saying it takes an entry level employee an hour or two to move these and therefore somewhere more in the realm of $20-50 USD. They were able to accommodate PC players going to console on a fairly large scale, so it must not be horrifically burdensome and 1-2 hours is likely an overstatement. Probably more of an annoyance and takes away from time spent on other tasks, which is why I can see a justification for a transfer fee.

Nomadic_Mind · May 2019

Nestor wrote: »

It is related to the same reason as to why NA has a character copy on the PTS on opposite weeks that Euro has a character copy. They can't add enmass to an existing database. Why they cant do this I am not sure has been explained. Something about duplicates was mentioned, but I don't think that is the whole reason.

They have no ability to manually add a new character entry to the database. The only reason they could at console release is those records were determined enmass before the conversion into a new database. As soon as that was completed that was the end of character transfers.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. While I can appreciate potential for item duping and worse a la Diablo 3 save manipulation, I think this could be mitigated by removing the account information from one platform when transitioned to another. The transfer fee would discourage frivolous swapping but still provide a means for the service to be rendered. Databases are built to be manipulated, it's not a can't but a won't. At least according to that simplified description, there may be something else going on.

I think the community at large would love to have a deeper understanding of exactly why it can't be done. There is a lot of technical expertise on these forums, maybe we could even help create a solution.

mystfit · May 2019

Nomadic_Mind wrote: »

deadsheepb14_ESO wrote: »

So what are we talking here? $200-500 dollars? $1000 dollars?

I would seriously doubt the staffing requirements to move files in this way would be that kind of absurd amount. But I can see them saying it takes an entry level employee an hour or two to move these and therefore somewhere more in the realm of $20-50 USD. They were able to accommodate PC players going to console on a fairly large scale, so it must not be horrifically burdensome and 1-2 hours is likely an overstatement. Probably more of an annoyance and takes away from time spent on other tasks, which is why I can see a justification for a transfer fee.

What are you basing these statements on? 'entry level employee' 'hour or two', 'not horrifically burdensome' '1-2 hours is likely an overstatement'. 'more of an annoyance'. The ONLY people who get to make those kind of statements is ZOS.

mairwen85 · May 2019

Would it be beneficial for Sony or Microsoft to allow this?

Think beyond the technical (this is very doable) and look at business reasons, and cost vs effort, and ultimately RoI. There is no business driver that satisfies the requirement for this use case.

deadsheepb14_ESO · May 2019

Nomadic_Mind wrote: »

deadsheepb14_ESO wrote: »

So what are we talking here? $200-500 dollars? $1000 dollars?

I would seriously doubt the staffing requirements to move files in this way would be that kind of absurd amount. But I can see them saying it takes an entry level employee an hour or two to move these and therefore somewhere more in the realm of $20-50 USD. They were able to accommodate PC players going to console on a fairly large scale, so it must not be horrifically burdensome and 1-2 hours is likely an overstatement. Probably more of an annoyance and takes away from time spent on other tasks, which is why I can see a justification for a transfer fee.

Sorry I was trying to incorporate greed into the equation and not just flat out hourly wages. I mean if ZOS has a way to do it, but Sony/MS say no (because they like more users on their platform), then it comes down to more money.

EDIT: Sorry my post got mangled.

Nomadic_Mind · May 2019

mystfit wrote: »

Nomadic_Mind wrote: »

deadsheepb14_ESO wrote: »

So what are we talking here? $200-500 dollars? $1000 dollars?

I would seriously doubt the staffing requirements to move files in this way would be that kind of absurd amount. But I can see them saying it takes an entry level employee an hour or two to move these and therefore somewhere more in the realm of $20-50 USD. They were able to accommodate PC players going to console on a fairly large scale, so it must not be horrifically burdensome and 1-2 hours is likely an overstatement. Probably more of an annoyance and takes away from time spent on other tasks, which is why I can see a justification for a transfer fee.

What are you basing these statements on? 'entry level employee' 'hour or two', 'not horrifically burdensome' '1-2 hours is likely an overstatement'. 'more of an annoyance'. The ONLY people who get to make those kind of statements is ZOS.

I'm basing it on the fact I work in databases every day for my professional life. Data transfers are not difficult. Depending on how you link your tables it can get annoying to properly account for relational bits, but once you write that code you can use it repeatedly. The amount of time to perform the function decreases over time. You'll notice I said things such as "likely" indicating some wiggle room and understanding that there are firm-specific realities to account for.

Acrolas · May 2019

It's basically like trying to shove a piece of paper into a fan. It's definitely not going to be pretty for the paper but you can *** up the fan, too.

So before you take it as a personal attack, remember that ZOS is also trying to protect the data of every existing player. Data that ZOS entirely owns and has executive decision over. And their decision on transfers is "do not plan to build".

https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/25807/~/can-i-transfer-my-eso-account-and-characters-between-different-platforms?

Nomadic_Mind · May 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

Would it be beneficial for Sony or Microsoft to allow this?

Think beyond the technical (this is very doable) and look at business reasons, and cost vs effort, and ultimately RoI. There is no business driver that satisfies the requirement for this use case.

I have to disagree, I think there is a huge business driver for this. They currently receive $0 from me and I will not be buying the new expansion. If they allow me to transfer my account they will gain a new purchase, a repeat purchase of the base game, and a renewed ESO Plus subscriber. The cost to keep clients is always cheaper than to go get new ones. Especially when your client is offering to pay your costs for transferring their account to another platform.

Nomadic_Mind · May 2019

deadsheepb14_ESO wrote: »

Nomadic_Mind wrote: »

deadsheepb14_ESO wrote: »

So what are we talking here? $200-500 dollars? $1000 dollars?

I would seriously doubt the staffing requirements to move files in this way would be that kind of absurd amount. But I can see them saying it takes an entry level employee an hour or two to move these and therefore somewhere more in the realm of $20-50 USD. They were able to accommodate PC players going to console on a fairly large scale, so it must not be horrifically burdensome and 1-2 hours is likely an overstatement. Probably more of an annoyance and takes away from time spent on other tasks, which is why I can see a justification for a transfer fee.

Sorry I was trying to incorporate greed into the equation and not just flat out hourly wages. I mean if ZOS has a way to do it, but Sony/MS say no (because they like more users on their platform), then it comes down to more money.

EDIT: Sorry my post got mangled.

mairwen85 · May 2019

@Nomadic_Mind and now compare the value gain of your sub vs the cost to 'poach' you from the console platform owner, and the cost of developing the process and failsafe, plus risk mitigation... And potential contractual issues with respective platforms.

It's not quite brexit... But we don't know the full extent of agreements made.

Nomadic_Mind · May 2019

deadsheepb14_ESO wrote: »

Nomadic_Mind wrote: »

deadsheepb14_ESO wrote: »

So what are we talking here? $200-500 dollars? $1000 dollars?

I would seriously doubt the staffing requirements to move files in this way would be that kind of absurd amount. But I can see them saying it takes an entry level employee an hour or two to move these and therefore somewhere more in the realm of $20-50 USD. They were able to accommodate PC players going to console on a fairly large scale, so it must not be horrifically burdensome and 1-2 hours is likely an overstatement. Probably more of an annoyance and takes away from time spent on other tasks, which is why I can see a justification for a transfer fee.

Sorry I was trying to incorporate greed into the equation and not just flat out hourly wages. I mean if ZOS has a way to do it, but Sony/MS say no (because they like more users on their platform), then it comes down to more money.

EDIT: Sorry my post got mangled.

haha it happens

I can agree with the several statements that the consoles may be a limiting factor. But as an inactive player, why would a platform fight to keep me? Is there a reasonable time frame that a player must be inactive on one platform before the owner would be willing to relinquish them?

mairwen85 · May 2019

Nomadic_Mind wrote: »

deadsheepb14_ESO wrote: »

Nomadic_Mind wrote: »

deadsheepb14_ESO wrote: »

So what are we talking here? $200-500 dollars? $1000 dollars?

I would seriously doubt the staffing requirements to move files in this way would be that kind of absurd amount. But I can see them saying it takes an entry level employee an hour or two to move these and therefore somewhere more in the realm of $20-50 USD. They were able to accommodate PC players going to console on a fairly large scale, so it must not be horrifically burdensome and 1-2 hours is likely an overstatement. Probably more of an annoyance and takes away from time spent on other tasks, which is why I can see a justification for a transfer fee.

Sorry I was trying to incorporate greed into the equation and not just flat out hourly wages. I mean if ZOS has a way to do it, but Sony/MS say no (because they like more users on their platform), then it comes down to more money.

EDIT: Sorry my post got mangled.

haha it happens

I can agree with the several statements that the consoles may be a limiting factor. But as an inactive player, why would a platform fight to keep me? Is there a reasonable time frame that a player must be inactive on one platform before the owner would be willing to relinquish them?

It's all about perception in business, and numbers provide that - - especially in adoption rates and sustained population values.

I play multiple platforms, I'm glad I started afresh on pc; its a different game to what I played through in console.

Nomadic_Mind · May 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

@Nomadic_Mind and now compare the value gain of your sub vs the cost to 'poach' you from the console platform owner, and the cost of developing the process and failsafe, plus risk mitigation... And potential contractual issues with respective platforms.

It's not quite brexit... But we don't know the full extent of agreements made.

Fair point that there may be other things going on, but the only communication we've had on the matter (officially at least, that I've seen) is that the database tables have data in them now so the techniques they used before won't work. They don't want to spend time writing new code to get data into tables that have lines of data already.

The problem with that response is that technically speaking, appending to tables is actually quite easy. My hope is that if enough voices ask for this, over enough time, they will see value in spending a few days to write and test the code.

BTW, your brexit comment is on point lol

deadsheepb14_ESO · May 2019

Nomadic_Mind wrote: »

haha it happens

I can agree with the several statements that the consoles may be a limiting factor. But as an inactive player, why would a platform fight to keep me? Is there a reasonable time frame that a player must be inactive on one platform before the owner would be willing to relinquish them?

Because you made an investment when you bought into their platform and they want to keep you as a (potential) customer. What do they gain by allowing you to transfer your assets?

EDIT: Ideally if it were up to me, once you owned the game on any platform, then you would be able to play it on any platform that supports it. But I don't know how to swing that past the marketing/licensing/trademarks/whatever team.

Tandor · May 2019

Every single time a new thread appears on this, the originator acknowledges that it's been raised before but then goes on to address only the apparent technical aspects of implementing their request, ignoring the fact that every previous thread has additionally raised the likelihood that the contracts between ZOS and both Microsoft and Sony prohibit the transfer of Microsoft and Sony paying customers to ZOS.

If you doubt that, look at the situation with PC customers on Steam. There are no technical reasons why someone on Steam can't run the game direct through ZOS, as has happened with the very first Steam players, but from a relatively early cut-off point it has no longer been possible to do so. That can only be down to contractual restrictions between ZOS and Steam, so why would anyone expect Microsoft and Sony to be more relaxed about losing business than Steam are?

therift · May 2019

Employees cost more than hourly wage.

therift · May 2019

Tandor wrote: »

Every single time a new thread appears on this, the originator acknowledges that it's been raised before but then goes on to address only the apparent technical aspects of implementing their request, ignoring the fact that every previous thread has additionally raised the likelihood that the contracts between ZOS and both Microsoft and Sony prohibit the transfer of Microsoft and Sony paying customers to ZOS.

If you doubt that, look at the situation with PC customers on Steam. There are no technical reasons why someone on Steam can't run the game direct through ZOS, as has happened with the very first Steam players, but from a relatively early cut-off point it has no longer been possible to do so. That can only be down to contractual restrictions between ZOS and Steam, so why would anyone expect Microsoft and Sony to be more relaxed about losing business than Steam are?

It may have something to do with the obscenely high commissions charged by Steam.

Nomadic_Mind · May 2019

Tandor wrote: »

Every single time a new thread appears on this, the originator acknowledges that it's been raised before but then goes on to address only the apparent technical aspects of implementing their request, ignoring the fact that every previous thread has additionally raised the likelihood that the contracts between ZOS and both Microsoft and Sony prohibit the transfer of Microsoft and Sony paying customers to ZOS.

If you doubt that, look at the situation with PC customers on Steam. There are no technical reasons why someone on Steam can't run the game direct through ZOS, as has happened with the very first Steam players, but from a relatively early cut-off point it has no longer been possible to do so. That can only be down to contractual restrictions between ZOS and Steam, so why would anyone expect Microsoft and Sony to be more relaxed about losing business than Steam are?

And yet you are ignoring the fact that PC accounts were moved to console. If these contract issues exist, wouldn't they have prevented that transfer in the first place? Or are you going to suddenly suggest that a one-time mass exemption was made to these ironclad contracts which resulted in large numbers of players changing platform? The fact that the transfer was an option at all pretty much undermines the argument that contracting is the limiting factor. Their own FAQ lists the fact that their transfer method can't be used anymore as the reason. Now, the technical aspect of this is likely true, the exact code won't work on blank tables like it does appending to a table with data. But that's just coding, and believe me when I tell you it is not that hard to write. It's not like game design, database code is easy.

I suspect the reason that early players on Steam have a different experience than current players is down to updates on each platform. Contracts don't change that often.

idk · May 2019

Nomadic_Mind wrote: »

I know that the response in previous posts has been that there is an issue with how data was stored/transferred and basically it came down to being a manual process and not one they could automate.

I do not think anyone outside of Zos knows they do not want to offer it, but it is clear they do not want to. It could easily be that the contract with one or more consoles will not permit it and that alone is enough of a reason.

But regardless of the reason Zos has shown no interest in offering this. They have shown no interest in monetizing it.

Ysbriel · May 2019

Everybody will say NO it’s ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE and HARD, but wait until the community starts dropping out and the world becomes a desert and suddenly BAMM! server merging is a thing.

Isojukka · May 2019

Ysbriel wrote: »

Everybody will say NO it’s ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE and HARD, but wait until the community starts dropping out and the world becomes a desert and suddenly BAMM! server merging is a thing.

Lsd?

Ysbriel · May 2019

Isojukka wrote: »

Ysbriel wrote: »

Everybody will say NO it’s ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE and HARD, but wait until the community starts dropping out and the world becomes a desert and suddenly BAMM! server merging is a thing.

Lsd?

Skooma

mairwen85 · May 2019

Nomadic_Mind wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Every single time a new thread appears on this, the originator acknowledges that it's been raised before but then goes on to address only the apparent technical aspects of implementing their request, ignoring the fact that every previous thread has additionally raised the likelihood that the contracts between ZOS and both Microsoft and Sony prohibit the transfer of Microsoft and Sony paying customers to ZOS.

If you doubt that, look at the situation with PC customers on Steam. There are no technical reasons why someone on Steam can't run the game direct through ZOS, as has happened with the very first Steam players, but from a relatively early cut-off point it has no longer been possible to do so. That can only be down to contractual restrictions between ZOS and Steam, so why would anyone expect Microsoft and Sony to be more relaxed about losing business than Steam are?

And yet you are ignoring the fact that PC accounts were moved to console. If these contract issues exist, wouldn't they have prevented that transfer in the first place? Or are you going to suddenly suggest that a one-time mass exemption was made to these ironclad contracts which resulted in large numbers of players changing platform? The fact that the transfer was an option at all pretty much undermines the argument that contracting is the limiting factor. Their own FAQ lists the fact that their transfer method can't be used anymore as the reason. Now, the technical aspect of this is likely true, the exact code won't work on blank tables like it does appending to a table with data. But that's just coding, and believe me when I tell you it is not that hard to write. It's not like game design, database code is easy.

I suspect the reason that early players on Steam have a different experience than current players is down to updates on each platform. Contracts don't change that often.

You're missing the point that day one PC to console transfer was mutually beneficial. Platforms for adoption (was very early in this gen life cycle) and population growth, plus console subscriptions and up selling opportunities and comissions, and thus also beneficial to ZOS for total player numbers, expansion, awareness, and additional sales: an already existing community pulls in more sales than an empty one. This unique circumstance doesn't exist anymore.

Again, no one is disputing the technical side of this request. As a software architect, I can agree with you that it is possible, however, the mechanism to make it happen in a clean way, with failsafe and mitigation is clearly not in development, and without a business driver, there is little reason to design, develop and deliver.