VetCR, Vet HOF why are they so hard?

Swainyboy · May 2019

This week our guild spent hours in Vet trials trying to get through them, I get that Vet content is supposed to be challenging but it's gotten to the point where the difficultly hugely out-weights the fun in this game. Who has time to come home from work/school, look after children and then spend any/all game time they have literally sat around on the same boss for 2 hours trying to get through it. ITS JUST NOT FUN AT ALL. This game has lost its sense of fun I feel, rather than just quit I want to play because I enjoy the game as a whole, but there are huge sections of this game that are needlessly hard for the hell of it! I wonder if anyone at Zenimax actually tests trails to see if they are viable...I doubt it.

MLGProPlayer · May 2019

Not all content is for everyone.

Have you considered normal trials? Vet DLC dungeons?

I too don't have time to dedicate to a vet trials practice schedule. So I don't do vet trials. I stick to vet DLC dungeons. Similar type of difficulty, but only requires coordination between 4 players and can thus be figured out fairly quickly.

idk · May 2019

It is mechanics in both trials. It does take time and work for a group to figure out new mechanics and how best to approach them. A lot of players spend their time after work and school on things like that.

As for testing. both trials mentioned have been in the game for awhile. vHoF 2 years and vCR 1 year with many groups clearing both. So they have been thoroughly tested.

Sorry to hear that you are not enjoying it. I do agree it is not everyone's cup of tea. That is why there is a normal version of each dungeon.

RogueShark · May 2019

The biggest thing in those places is understanding the mechanics. Going through on normal really doesn't prepare you.
Taking the time to ensure you and everyone else in your group knows their role and what they should be doing at any given time will really save you time and heartache/headache in the future. vCR is a really good example of a trial that one person not knowing what a mechanic is can wipe the entire group.

Figuring out what's wiping you and causing your group so much hassle and addressing it is going to be what gets you through there. Now it might still take hours, depending on how quickly everyone in the group learns the mechanics and gets them down. That being said, if you don't enjoy the progression of it, there's no reason you have to make yourself angry or frustrated bashing your head into it. There's so many other aspects of the game to experience and enjoy, and what's a game for if not to have fun? Don't drive yourself crazy working on the content if you don't enjoy it.

Tasear · May 2019

Heavy corindation is all vhof is along with people following lead instructions.

vesselwiththepestle · May 2019

idk wrote: »

That is why there is a normal version of each dungeon.

Many players are getting bored to death by normal dungeons, while still not being able to complete vet dungeons.

Gnozo · May 2019

There needs to be content for endgame players. It needs to be hard and challening, otherwise all the endgame will be over really fast.

Craglorn trials are for a more casual playstyle.

MattT1988 · May 2019

It’s hard because top tier players need content that challenge them too. Not all content is for everyone, which is 100% fine.

anitajoneb17_ESO · May 2019

idk wrote: »

As for testing. both trials mentioned have been in the game for awhile. vHoF 2 years and vCR 1 year with many groups clearing both.

"Many" ? Define "many". Maybe "many of the people you know". Maybe the 100 groups mentioned in leaderboards is "many" to you, it still doesn't mean it's "many" as compared to the overall playerbase. In fact, only ZOS knows the overall completion rate, as only ZOS knows what their intention was when placing the cursor where they placed it.

That being said, I agree that not all content needs to be for everyone. But it's also fair for players to expect that content should be clearable with a reasonable amount of efforts. Again, "reasonable" is hard to define and mileages vary.

My feeling though is that ZOS isn't exactly aware of the performance and expectations of their overall playerbase and place the cursor wrong. But it's just a feeling. Maybe they know what they're doing, maybe they don't...

Svenja · May 2019

At which bosses are you guys struggling?

Even my social guild with fairly low damage has beaten vHoF recently, and I think in vCR they have cleared +0 and were working on +1 before Elsweyr. If you have low damage, you can't just nuke bosses, you have to play the mechanics correctly, and your support roles have to slot the right skills. I've seen groups struggle in vHoF because the healer's didn't bother to obtain and level the Purge from Alliance War.
It's not enough to watch a video of a high score/achievement run, the group's there will use tactics that are impossible to do if your group's damage is low. I know the differences there, my core group has very skilled DDs with incredible damage, we can use nuke tactics and skip mechanics, whereas my social guild, where I occasionally help out, needs to play the bosses very differently.

Swainyboy · May 2019

MattT1988 wrote: »

It’s hard because top tier players need content that challenge them too. Not all content is for everyone, which is 100% fine.

I understand that the game needs to cater for everyone, but at the same time, i've managed to get myself over 50k dps, cracking rotation, I know the mechs blah blah blah, and these trials still seem so out of reach?

The leaderboards is the content that has been created for the top tier players. Essentially Zenimax are wasting so much content on the player-base as the majority can't complete it. non top tier groups should be able to complete HM VetCR. Top tier groups should have the leaderboards to prove they are better, the content completion itself shouldn't be the test.

Swainyboy · May 2019

Svenja wrote: »

At which bosses are you guys struggling?

Even my social guild with fairly low damage has beaten vHoF recently, and I think in vCR they have cleared +0 and were working on +1 before Elsweyr. If you have low damage, you can't just nuke bosses, you have to play the mechanics correctly, and your support roles have to slot the right skills. I've seen groups struggle in vHoF because the healer's didn't bother to obtain and level the Purge from Alliance War.
It's not enough to watch a video of a high score/achievement run, the group's there will use tactics that are impossible to do if your group's damage is low. I know the differences there, my core group has very skilled DDs with incredible damage, we can use nuke tactics and skip mechanics, whereas my social guild, where I occasionally help out, needs to play the bosses very differently.

Our group is fine with the mechs, its random damage spikes, lag spikes and silly mechanics like the lightning overload bar debuff in CR that kills us. Often in Eso you are not given the chance to out skill the damage, it just hits you and thats that.

The mechanics are often messy and not clean, even if you do watch score run vids etc, these groups do not look perfectly coordinated, but instead people running around away from moving fire etc

Svenja · May 2019

Swainyboy wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

It’s hard because top tier players need content that challenge them too. Not all content is for everyone, which is 100% fine.

I understand that the game needs to cater for everyone, but at the same time, i've managed to get myself over 50k dps, cracking rotation, I know the mechs blah blah blah, and these trials still seem so out of reach?

The leaderboards is the content that has been created for the top tier players. Essentially Zenimax are wasting so much content on the player-base as the majority can't complete it. non top tier groups should be able to complete HM VetCR. Top tier groups should have the leaderboards to prove they are better, the content completion itself shouldn't be the test.

I am very sure no DD of my social guild who has beaten vHoF is capable of doing 50k dps. And my core group certainly wasn't able to do that when vHoF came out. Then it certainly isn't damage you are lacking, if other DDs in your group aren't significantly worse.

SoLooney · May 2019

Vhof is hard on the tanks and kinda the healers

VCR is hard on everyone

And dont worry, not a lot of people get completes on them to begin with

idk · May 2019

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

idk wrote: »

That is why there is a normal version of each dungeon.

Many players are getting bored to death by normal dungeons, while still not being able to complete vet dungeons.

Anything worthwhile is not going to be super easy. While I do agree the normal difficulties do not offer anything to help a group clear the vet versions, we cannot significantly nerf the vet versions because people are not willing to put in the work.

If the team you run with does not look like they are cut out for success then find one that you fit and fits your interests.

LadyNalcarya · May 2019

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

idk wrote: »

That is why there is a normal version of each dungeon.

Many players are getting bored to death by normal dungeons, while still not being able to complete vet dungeons.

Can't they just start with easier vet dungeons, learn mechanics, improve their builds etc? It's possible to play casually and still clear most of the content (except hardest versions of new trials).

Cheezits94 · May 2019

Swainyboy wrote: »

Svenja wrote: »

At which bosses are you guys struggling?

Even my social guild with fairly low damage has beaten vHoF recently, and I think in vCR they have cleared +0 and were working on +1 before Elsweyr. If you have low damage, you can't just nuke bosses, you have to play the mechanics correctly, and your support roles have to slot the right skills. I've seen groups struggle in vHoF because the healer's didn't bother to obtain and level the Purge from Alliance War.
It's not enough to watch a video of a high score/achievement run, the group's there will use tactics that are impossible to do if your group's damage is low. I know the differences there, my core group has very skilled DDs with incredible damage, we can use nuke tactics and skip mechanics, whereas my social guild, where I occasionally help out, needs to play the bosses very differently.

Our group is fine with the mechs, its random damage spikes, lag spikes and silly mechanics like the lightning overload bar debuff in CR that kills us. Often in Eso you are not given the chance to out skill the damage, it just hits you and thats that.

But see, if the overload in CR ist killing people, people are simply not paying attention to their character omitting electric sparks for 5 seconds before their weapon even gets overloaded..and then their whole screen turns blue to signal "ATTENTION - BAR SWAP MECHANIC".
And that's without add-ons even.

RogueShark · May 2019

Swainyboy wrote: »

I understand that the game needs to cater for everyone, but at the same time, i've managed to get myself over 50k dps, cracking rotation, I know the mechs blah blah blah, and these trials still seem so out of reach?

Has everyone in your group, though? As someone mentioned above: do your supports know what skills need to be slotted? vHOF has some bosses that severely require purge, for instance. Do tanks know when to swap? What they're supposed to do? Do DPS?
You can be the best DPS in the world and have every single mechanic memorized, but if the rest of your group hasn't, or even half of them, or even a couple, have no clue what's going on, your group is going to struggle.

silly mechanics like the lightning overload bar debuff in CR that kills us.

This is a clear indication that people in your group aren't grasping basic mechanics, or just aren't paying attention. This mechanic is super simple and telegraphed. If you're on PC, everyone in your group should get raid notifier, as it helps you track these mechanics. If not, the lightning overload debuff will give your character a blueish glow/telegraph that goes away when the debuff does so you know you can barswap. One person messing up this mechanic can and will wipe a group.

KhajiitFelix · May 2019

Try PvP. Nobody cares about optimization there

Swainyboy · May 2019

RogueShark wrote: »

Swainyboy wrote: »

I understand that the game needs to cater for everyone, but at the same time, i've managed to get myself over 50k dps, cracking rotation, I know the mechs blah blah blah, and these trials still seem so out of reach?

Has everyone in your group, though? As someone mentioned above: do your supports know what skills need to be slotted? vHOF has some bosses that severely require purge, for instance. Do tanks know when to swap? What they're supposed to do? Do DPS?
You can be the best DPS in the world and have every single mechanic memorized, but if the rest of your group hasn't, or even half of them, or even a couple, have no clue what's going on, your group is going to struggle.

silly mechanics like the lightning overload bar debuff in CR that kills us.

This is a clear indication that people in your group aren't grasping basic mechanics, or just aren't paying attention. This mechanic is super simple and telegraphed. If you're on PC, everyone in your group should get raid notifier, as it helps you track these mechanics. If not, the lightning overload debuff will give your character a blueish glow/telegraph that goes away when the debuff does so you know you can barswap. One person messing up this mechanic can and will wipe a group.

I agree with you, this may be the case, but then it drills back down to ability to commit a large portion of your life to the game to access a better group. Most guild want/require you to be online during trial runs otherwise you're out. It does feel that Eso is a game that is not compatible with modern life and the fact that most people dont have 5/6 hours a day to sit and play games.

The simple issue of time then goes against players like myself who have the ability to clear, but struggle to be find others who can clear. Sad times.

FierceSam · May 2019

Hey Swainyboy,

Vet trials are a challenge.

Completing them should feel like an achievement.

However, if you can do the normal versions competently, you should be able to take on the Vet versions. But you will still have to work at them. Success depends on a team of 12 players working together, so some element of practicing will be required.

Even if your guild’s attempt wasn’t successful this time you will each have learned something. Next time you do the normal versions you may find them significantly easier. Next time you do the Vet versions you may find you get further. And when you do, finally, complete them you will feel awesome.

Good luck

Svenja · May 2019

Swainyboy wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

Swainyboy wrote: »

I understand that the game needs to cater for everyone, but at the same time, i've managed to get myself over 50k dps, cracking rotation, I know the mechs blah blah blah, and these trials still seem so out of reach?

Has everyone in your group, though? As someone mentioned above: do your supports know what skills need to be slotted? vHOF has some bosses that severely require purge, for instance. Do tanks know when to swap? What they're supposed to do? Do DPS?
You can be the best DPS in the world and have every single mechanic memorized, but if the rest of your group hasn't, or even half of them, or even a couple, have no clue what's going on, your group is going to struggle.

silly mechanics like the lightning overload bar debuff in CR that kills us.

This is a clear indication that people in your group aren't grasping basic mechanics, or just aren't paying attention. This mechanic is super simple and telegraphed. If you're on PC, everyone in your group should get raid notifier, as it helps you track these mechanics. If not, the lightning overload debuff will give your character a blueish glow/telegraph that goes away when the debuff does so you know you can barswap. One person messing up this mechanic can and will wipe a group.

I agree with you, this may be the case, but then it drills back down to ability to commit a large portion of your life to the game to access a better group. Most guild want/require you to be online during trial runs otherwise you're out. It does feel that Eso is a game that is not compatible with modern life and the fact that most people dont have 5/6 hours a day to sit and play games.

The simple issue of time then goes against players like myself who have the ability to clear, but struggle to be find others who can clear. Sad times.

I can assure you that you can combine having a life with raiding. 5-6 hours a day is a ridiculous claim, I know people who raid who play that in a week. I raid 9 hours in a week and mostly I don't even log in outside of that.
Stop implying that people who can beat veteran trials are unemployed no-lifers.

idk · May 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

As for testing. both trials mentioned have been in the game for awhile. vHoF 2 years and vCR 1 year with many groups clearing both.

"Many" ? Define "many". Maybe "many of the people you know". Maybe the 100 groups mentioned in leaderboards is "many" to you, it still doesn't mean it's "many" as compared to the overall playerbase. In fact, only ZOS knows the overall completion rate, as only ZOS knows what their intention was when placing the cursor where they placed it.

LOL. I did not say most of the players or even a large portion of the player base. It seems you are trying to split a hair that is not even there to create an argument about something that is not there.

RogueShark · May 2019

Swainyboy wrote: »

I agree with you, this may be the case, but then it drills back down to ability to commit a large portion of your life to the game to access a better group. Most guild want/require you to be online during trial runs otherwise you're out. It does feel that Eso is a game that is not compatible with modern life and the fact that most people dont have 5/6 hours a day to sit and play games.

The simple issue of time then goes against players like myself who have the ability to clear, but struggle to be find others who can clear. Sad times.

Not all groups require that. I had a vMOL HM group that only met once a week for two hours while we progged it. And when we finished, I had those two hours back every week to look for another group working on something I wanted.
There are some groups that will run 3-4 or more hours at a time, multiple days a week, but that certainly isn't a requirement to clear content. It sounds like you just need to spend some time looking for a group that meets once or twice a week during a timeframe that suits you.

Cheezits94 · May 2019

My trial group (we have beaten vMoL and vHoF with Hardmodes) raids on Sundays from 8:30pm to 11pm, not more.

we have people who already have kids, so we sometimes have to take breaks mid-trial, sometimes the little ones need attention.

not a problem at all and we even have cancelled raids and formed dungeon groups to farm gear during raid time instead when people were missing necessary items. You don't need lots of playtime a day to run trials.

anitajoneb17_ESO · May 2019

idk wrote: »

LOL. I did not say most of the players or even a large portion of the player base. It seems you are trying to split a hair that is not even there to create an argument about something that is not there.

Nope. You said "Many players clear it therefore it's fine".
I questioned the meaning of "many", the source of that "information" and also the logical relationship between those too elements (many clear it => it's fine).
I said that politely and rationally, in words that, imho, make simple sense.

Many players (now, you'll probably ask me to define "many") question ZOS strategy and intentions with regards to the very high level of recent vet content (DLC dungeons and chapter trials). Maybe it says something about them being too hard ? Just a question.

Kikke · May 2019

Many people I know play for 10h tops a week and still have cleared all trials.

ccfeeling · May 2019

Those trials are not develop for casual players .

mairwen85 · May 2019

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

idk wrote: »

That is why there is a normal version of each dungeon.

Many players are getting bored to death by normal dungeons, while still not being able to complete vet dungeons.

This is a complaint you see all the time. The distance between normal and veteran is too wide. Normal does not prepare players for vet ; there needs to be a middle difficulty. Rename current 'Normal' as 'Casual', and create a new medium difficulty named Normal. This way everyone gets the challenge suited to their ability, and availability -- plus it stops the dumbing down of veteran content.

Kikke · May 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

idk wrote: »

That is why there is a normal version of each dungeon.

Many players are getting bored to death by normal dungeons, while still not being able to complete vet dungeons.

This is a complaint you see all the time. The distance between normal and veteran is too wide. Normal does not prepare players for vet ; there needs to be a middle difficulty. Rename current 'Normal' as 'Casual', and create a new medium difficulty named Normal. This way everyone gets the challenge suited to their ability, and availability -- plus it stops the dumbing down of veteran content.

Tired of normal trials? Start with craglorn trials, done with craglor? Go vmol, done with vmol? Crag HMs. Done with that? Mini trials +0. Then go vhof, vhof hm, vmol hm, mini trials hm at the end there. Now tell me again how the jump is too wide?

LadyNalcarya · May 2019

Kikke wrote: »

Many people I know play for 10h tops a week and still have cleared all trials.

Same.
Actually it's one of reasons why I still play ESO... I can't afford spending too much time on games and unlike many other mmos ESO isn't very time-consuming.