Observstions on AvA

khajiitNPC · May 2019

Something I always found baffling in regards to the PvP mindset is the disdain for Zerglings. Whether it be a tight knit ball group or a full blown Zerg. It’s sorta of funny to watch the illogical arguments play out.

I suppose there’s a few different approaches to PvP, but I’m focusing solely on AvA areas.

The first argument I generally see is the 1v1 in an AvA area. A person engages in battle with another solo player, some people will see this and be like, “oh they’re dueling” and let them be, but if another person shows up to assist and ends up killing one of them, it’s straight to the forums. “I can’t 1v1 in Cyrodiil without someone else interrupting or killing me.” Which I get it, I do. You’re in heated battle with someone who is pretty good then bam some jerk jumps in and ruins it. It does. It sucks. But perhaps 1v1 in Cyrodiil isn’t the best place. They gave us dueling for a reason.

The next one is the 1vXer. I’ve seen some really good 1vXers. I personally can 1vX on potatoes and only potatoes. I know there are probably really great players who can do it to any adversary, I’m not one of those, but the thing I don’t think the 1vXer considers is that those potatoes eventually get better. Thus making it harder to 1vX. So they come to the forum and complain that the 1vX element is gone. Or again, they get run down by a more competent group. or they get zerged, but again AvA area.

Next is the ball group vs Zerg. Now this one can either go two ways. Ball group is a well oiled machine running through zergs of Pugs, or Ball group is a well oiled machine that runs into a Zerg that’s a well oiled machine. These can go either way, but generally again the stigma usually falls on the Zerg who is in an AvA area doing the objective that was intended.

I just find it sort of funny that people get so salty when they know they are in an AvA area yet it’s the zergs that are ruining it. Especially when you can duel, go to BGs, go to smaller scale IC, when you can whisper the person telling them to meet you at a place less crowded. Personally I think ZoS did enough to cater to almost all play styles for PvP. The only thing about zergs that I don’t care for is the downgrade in performance when they are packed together. But that is more of a server issue.

Inb4 “confirmed zergling”, just saying it might not be the Zerg it might be you that is the issue.

Thogard · May 2019

Stop being rational. These are the message boards and I don’t appreciate you pointing out the hypocrisy I rely on to assuage the damage to my own ego after dying in a PvP zone.

ccmedaddy · May 2019

Ball groups are zerglings too. Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

CatchMeTrolling · May 2019

1vx is harder for multiple reasons and it’s not simply because players have gotten better. In my opinion this might be the worst group of pvp players the game has seen because the devs keep dumbing down the game and removing counter play elements. Not only that they nerfed things used for Zerg killing and added things like earth gore.

I don’t really care if someone is zerging, I look for them. The problem is what these groups do to the servers and how some of them ruin campaigns. It’s AvA zerging and big groups should be expected but the alliance war needs improvement.

VaranisArano · May 2019

I see it as the difference between "effectiveness as a player" vs "effectiveness as a team", leading into "effectiveness as a faction".

Most truly solo players, duelers, 1vXers, gankers, and bombers maximize their individual effectiveness.

Most small groups are built of players who are individually skilled, they just happen to be working together, but remain largely self-reliant.

Ball groups, large organized raids, and to some extent, premades in BGs rely on effectiveness as a team. Many players sacrifice part of their toolkit that they would use as a solo or small group in order to better play as a team. The larger the organized raid, the better they are able to field specialized support roles dedicated to playing as a team.

Zergs, whether that be a faction stack or a PUG raid, tend to pull players who are largely self-reliant, yet don't play in a small group, an organized raid, or truly on their own. They generally don't have the teamwork and specialized support that the ball groups - which is why most ball groups or good small groups cut through them like a hot knife through butter. Faction stacks are the same thing, writ large, because the ball group/organized raid at their core and the PUGs who came to the same objective aren't actually coordinating.

So for people who prize effectiveness as an individual, solo play and small groups are the pinnacle of PVP, while people who PUG, Zerg surf, or play in a large organized raid are viewed as having less individual skill.

For people who prize effectiveness as a team, the best way to play is as a coordinated team. That's ball groups, large organized raids, good PUG raids, and some small groups. Individual pride and skill takes a backseat to playing as a team and helping the team do well.

For people who prize effectiveness as a faction...its the ball groups, the organized raids, and the PUG raids that do most of the focusing on objectives, along with a few small groups. I rarely see individual players who actually play solo making any sort of impact on the campaign.

That being said, Cyrodiil was originally designed for groups of 12 to 24 players, and that really shows. It supports a lot of other playstyles, yeah, and that's awesome! But in terms of AvAvA fighting, the larger and better organized group usually wins out. Teamwork is OP.

khajiitNPC · May 2019

@CatchMeTrolling you make a really good point. To kinda piggyback on the idea of nerfing abilities versus teaching people how to play, let’s look at the recent nerf to freeze time, it was excellent for busting up Zergs, yet ZoS in their infinite wisdom put a cost increase on it, I mean it’s not horrible if you’re playing a support role, but it was so telegraphed, and you could roll dodge out of it, break free, ect, I kinda scratch my head on who was complaining.

I think that’s the biggest issue, is that there isn’t enough people actively teaching PvP. There’s a lot of YouTubers that I’ve seen promoting very damage or tank oriented builds. But not enough people promoting well rounded builds or speaking a lot on the mechanics. I’ve played MMO’s enough to know there will always be FotM. But I find it somewhat funny that people think you need high damage to kill. Sure it helps to get the job done faster, but a lot of those burst builds are one trick ponies. IMO. I think people should learn the classes and play all of them effectively.

For example I’m sort of dumbfounded when it comes to magicka players complaining about not being able to dodge roll or break free. It’s like, you ever consider investing more into stamina? Maybe you don’t need that 40k magicka pool in PvP? Idk. I play all classes pretty actively, I main a stamBlade (the most comfortable class I play) with magDK coming in at a close second.

Now I feel like the game is more or less moving towards a homogenized place. Everyone is pretty much the same but different particle effects.

CatchMeTrolling · May 2019

The issue with time freeze is basically the same issue with proxy det and vicious death, the big groups used them too. So these type of nerfs or buffs are ultimately double edged swords.

I do believe there should be a basic pvp tutorial for players to watch when they come into Cyrodiil explaining the mechanics and how the game works in pvp. Before guilds took care of this but it’s not the same anymore. When I started I had to learn how to play and learn the counter play aspects of the game while dealing with people that was already knowledgeable because they played on PC.

It’s not the same anymore, less forgiving. It should be easier to get into but the issue is it tends to lean towards one type of player rather than considering multiple type of players. Solo had a lane , small groups had a lane and large scale had a lane but the game has gradually gravitated towards having only one lane.

Dr_Ganknstein · May 2019

I still see solo, small scale, large scale and all out zergs. Having the skills to play your character is one thing but having skills as leading people socializing will bring your faction ton victory more often then your thumbs will.

Iskiab · May 2019

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

The issue with time freeze is basically the same issue with proxy det and vicious death, the big groups used them too. So these type of nerfs or buffs are ultimately double edged swords.
.

Isn’t that like complaining that large groups use healing and damage abilities too?

I don’t know what the game was like before I started playing and I started in summerset. However, when people talk about pvp, it sounds like there were ridiculously overpowered abilities that let people take on huge groups solo. Likely because the abilities were designed for pve before pvp was in game maybe?

As for people talking down different playstyles that’s just an unhealthy part of MMOs. Everyone plays them differently and has their own benchmark for how they’re doing. Highest score in trial guilds, most gold for casual players, whatever.

I think every playstyle is cool, even 1vX, all I don’t like is some people looking down on other playstyles I see on the forums all the time - usually by 1vXers.

If there’s server issues from large groups that’s the server’s fault and not the players.

KillsAllElves · May 2019

Those who hurl this supposed insult "zerglings" are the ones who expect others to adjust their playstyle to fit theirs.

Cyrodiil was advertised as large scale siege warfare, if people want to play solo, with small scale or large scale they should be able to do so.

99% of the time im by my self ganking, if i get "zerged down" i dont cry about it i move on to the next engagement.

The "small scale players" are on a hyper inflated ego trip, a common theme among these "players" is everyone of them believe theyre gods gift to gaming and they should be invicible. And immediately when they die they send hate mail and come on to the forums and cry.

Calling someone a zergling is a weak insult and is an excuse for your death in pvp. You will always have someone calling someone a zergling every one is full of excuses and this game shows that!