Better off if Stone Fist got a stamina morph over whip. There's already plenty of stamina morphs for DK in the Ardent tree while there's none besides the ultimate for Earthen Heart. GDB is already stamina-y based.

I played StamDk main and now playing StamWarden...these 2 classes rock and u really dont need more stam-morphs for them...except maybe a Poisonwhip spammable for StamDK.

Yet in newest dlc stamina is the reason to lacking build variety among magicka builds, since necro basically doesn't give you any options. That's a bit different issue though, devs should just add something else to magicka weapons.

I kinda agree though. These abilities are good candidates for stamina morphs. Maybe aside from whip. Stone Fist could be turned into stamina spam ability, if devs would be willing to rework mountain's blessing passive.

As for warden, that morph of swarm that spreads would be good in stamina variation, would help with aoe.

Numerikuu wrote: »

Better off if Stone Fist got a stamina morph over whip. There's already plenty of stamina morphs for DK in the Ardent tree while there's none besides the ultimate for Earthen Heart. GDB is already stamina-y based.

How? Out of the ENTIRE class they have only two stamina morphs. How is this enough? Stamina right now is about using 80% weapon abilities with 20% class to be viable, where Magicka can use 100% class and be viable.

All I am saying is as far as stamina goes I can play using a Nightblade use NB skills and still be viable, I will be able to play a Necromancer using Necro skills and still be viable. Warden and DK can not. Sure many say " I play a Warden/DK stamina build just fine", but they really don't. Majority of these builds are using skills from weapon skill lines.

Stamina warden for example. Two handed front bar Uppercut, Critical charge, reverse slash, vigor, Netch, Dawnbreaker. Back bar snipe, poison arrow, scatter shot, caltrops, Falcon's swiftness, Rapid fire.( I know I am using the unmorphed skills) an this is just one build there are many other like it.

This is not a warden. This is a bow/two handed build that works for any class.
I on the other hand want to be able to play a full stamina warden and it be just as viable. That is all. This game is suppose to be about choice and create your own build, yet stamina is almost forced to go down the weapon path while magicka has the benefit of actually using 90% of the class abilities and actually having choice in what the different builds they can make, while having the option to throw weapon builds in the mix.

Vizikul wrote: »

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Giving swarm a stam morph would hurt magden uniqueness even more... magden right now is basically stamden with blue magic instead of green with less weapon abilities options and therefore less offensive power and diversity in both PvE and PvP. If winters embrace or perhaps green balance had some good offensive morphs to distinguish the playstyles of magden from stamden then I would for sure agree that swarm should have a stam morph but just changing a morph of swarm to stam and thus reducing magden offensive diversity further in the current state of warden subclass balance would just be insulting

The hypocrisy of your post is insulting. Stam warden has two offensive abilites ( Sub Assault and Cutting Dive), Mag Warden has 4 (Screaming Cliff Racer, Deep Fissure, Swarm + both Morphs, and Winter's Revenge). Mag Wardens have everything Stam wardens have but still have an additional 100% of offensive class abilities to use.

Magden has half the normal number of offensive morphs compared to other mag subclasses and only one weapon line to fill in the gaps... so it doesn’t have 2 more offensive abilities than stamden, it has 17 less

Factoring out weapon lines when comparing mag and stam offensive diversity is just dishonest and you know it

Stamina character's were first designed to use weapon skills and be supplemented with class skill utility. This is why there are more stamina weapon skill lines. This is also the main direction for a stam DK. It really emphasizes the "Knight" in DragonKnight. This is not adequate to some however.

Placing a stamina morph in Earthen Heart would no be feasible due to the Helping Hands passive. The passive would turn out to be a 990 flat cost reduction, so the skill would need to have a high base cost.

Wardens have a decent amount of stamina morphs to choose from.
Cliff Racer
Scorch
Netch
Spores

These, along with powerful, useable magicka supplementary skills allows a stam Warden to have a decent amount of choice in a stam build. You can be a ranger, using bow and cliff racer for kiting and damage from range. You can set up stacked burst close range with scorch and a 2H. You can go deeper into weapon skills, and use those as designed for stam classes, mixing different lines to find a good fit for your play.

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Factoring out weapon lines when comparing mag and stam offensive diversity is just dishonest and you know it

No, it's not.

1. This thread is about class skills.

2. You can only equip two weapons, so counting all stamina weapon abilities is not an argument, it's a pathetic hyperbole.

3. Weapon abilities should not make a build, they should complement it! Stamina Players are complaining for years now. We don't want our builds to consist of 80%+ generic weapon abilities. We want to get more use of our classes. Weapon abilities should grant characters features which their classes are lacking but they should not replace the class thing.

4. Yes, there is a lack of magicka weapons. There is no argument against that, but there is also no valid argument why stamina characters should not be allowed to get as much use out of their class as their magicka counterparts do.

5. Every single time a magicka warden complains about ice dps numbers, lack of class offensive abilities or whatever, you won't find a single stamina warden contradicting but as soon as a stamina warden player complains about not getting much use out of their class, there are suddenly a dozen of magicka wardens showing up and crying like babies, stating nonsensical theories like "NO!!! stamdens are OP as f**k already, they do not need to get anything. Anyth1ng!!!!!!!". Magden Players essentially behave like little children, they want all the toys and goodies, but their siblings are not allowed to have some fun.

But the reason classes have more magicka skills is because stamina have more weapon skill variety, thats how its was designed. If you want more stamina class skills you will need more magicka weapons. weapons

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

But the reason classes have more magicka skills is because stamina have more weapon skill variety, thats how its was designed. If you want more stamina class skills you will need more magicka weapons. weapons

This I agree with, but you guys never suggest this

Vizikul wrote: »

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Factoring out weapon lines when comparing mag and stam offensive diversity is just dishonest and you know it

5. Every single time a magicka warden complains about ice dps numbers, lack of class offensive abilities or whatever, you won't find a single stamina warden contradicting but as soon as a stamina warden player complains about not getting much use out of their class, there are suddenly a dozen of magicka wardens showing up and crying like babies, stating nonsensical theories like "NO!!! stamdens are OP as f**k already, they do not need to get anything. Anyth1ng!!!!!!!". Magden Players essentially behave like little children, they want all the toys and goodies, but their siblings are not allowed to have some fun.

Stamina Warden has access to 3 executes on a standard DW/Bow build, even a 2H/ Bow. Magicka Warden has 1. Stamina Warden is certainly more effective than magicka due to weapon abilites.
The reason you wont hear a Stamina Warden complaining is because we all know they are in a really good spot even with the amount of stamina skills they have.
Have you actually played Magicka Warden extensively?

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Vizikul wrote: »

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Factoring out weapon lines when comparing mag and stam offensive diversity is just dishonest and you know it

No, it's not.

1. This thread is about class skills.

2. You can only equip two weapons, so counting all stamina weapon abilities is not an argument, it's a pathetic hyperbole.

3. Weapon abilities should not make a build, they should complement it! Stamina Players are complaining for years now. We don't want our builds to consist of 80%+ generic weapon abilities. We want to get more use of our classes. Weapon abilities should grant characters features which their classes are lacking but they should not replace the class thing.

4. Yes, there is a lack of magicka weapons. There is no argument against that, but there is also no valid argument why stamina characters should not be allowed to get as much use out of their class as their magicka counterparts do.

5. Every single time a magicka warden complains about ice dps numbers, lack of class offensive abilities or whatever, you won't find a single stamina warden contradicting but as soon as a stamina warden player complains about not getting much use out of their class, there are suddenly a dozen of magicka wardens showing up and crying like babies, stating nonsensical theories like "NO!!! stamdens are OP as f**k already, they do not need to get anything. Anyth1ng!!!!!!!". Magden Players essentially behave like little children, they want all the toys and goodies, but their siblings are not allowed to have some fun.

This. Some of them even want an ice mage theme while hogging good morphs of class skills

Netch mag morph purges stam does nothing
Scr has bonus 15% from range stam does nothing
Fetcher flies is exclusive to madgen
Some passives are better on magden or exclusive to them.
Almost the entire healing tree is exclusive to magden

But that’s not enough. They need exclusive ice damage.
This begs the question if Winter’s Embrace had good damage abilities would they still use animal companions?

We've personally listed your first and second pain points as they are perfectly valid and reasonable.

Fetcher flies is exclusive to magden, and poison injection rending slashes and carve are exclusive to stamina toons. Of which Stamden is one. They have more options with several benefits.

In green balance, you have Soothing Spores, Nature's Grasp, Secluded grove and Green Lotus. Those are 4 options for stamdens.

We would still use animal companions skills for the bear ultimate, the passive benefits and for the other powerful damage that they provide. Bird of prey would still be used and swarm would be too as it's a strong DoT. A bit lacking in other effects though. Same problem with Cliff Racer.

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Have you actually played Magicka Warden extensively?

No, but other than my 5th Argument from my post above I never said anything against Magdens.

They want to deal proper ice dps? Of course! They want more ice dps abilities? Sure! They want more executes? OK!
The thing is stamden players are not trying to ruin the fun for their magicka siblings but we want to have some fun as well! And the fun we are looking for is by being granted more class uniqueness rather than just weapon abilities which every stamina class has access to. We are supporting you guys, so why can't you guys support us either, why do you always have to contradict? This is why we can't have nice things!

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@LeHarrt91 @ESO_Nightingale

Look, Im not looking for any stamden buffs maybe some small tweaks but that’s it. However the OP is right In a way that stam builds are literally carried by weapon class skills making them non unique.

Imo Magdan and stamden are in a good spot, but if you want more for magden then stamden needs some clean up on class morphs since they seem to be an afterthought.

Stamden is in a great spot at the moment. One of the top performers in pve and it does great in pvp. Magden on the other hand has consistently underperformed in pve and has recieved nerfs that hurt it in its best spot. Group pvp. While also crippling its okay dueling and 1v1ing performance. Stamden was also hurt. Though not as bad. We aren't ignoring Stamden's issues at all. We have them listed. But when it comes to Swarm, you guys have several options for DoTs already. Where as magden just has swarm. But also no other realistic choice for stuns and a non-bear execute. both magden and stamden do also lack group utility for pve. Which is another pain point.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Numerikuu wrote: »

Better off if Stone Fist got a stamina morph over whip. There's already plenty of stamina morphs for DK in the Ardent tree while there's none besides the ultimate for Earthen Heart. GDB is already stamina-y based.

GDB is not stamina based. Putting stamina regen on a mag cost skill with missing hp scaling, does not make it a stamina skill.

Yeah, true. My bad. Never understood why they didn't make it the opposite of the other morph and make it purely stam. Would be too many strong heals then I guess? /shrug

Rampeal wrote: »

How? Out of the ENTIRE class they have only two stamina morphs. How is this enough? Stamina right now is about using 80% weapon abilities with 20% class to be viable, where Magicka can use 100% class and be viable.

Reread. I said in the Ardent tree. Not overall.

As for the rest, if they ever do add more stamina morphs (lol ain't happening) they NEED to add more magicka weapons to the game (they need to anyway imo.)

If I get locked into one more *** motherfudging stave heavy attack I'm gonna strangle the life out of something
Stamina may be shoehorned into the same boring *** builds most of the time, but at least you don't suffer from heavy attack locks that kill you or your team.