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Is the attribute system even required?
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sionIV✭✭✭✭✭I am against removing RPG (character) options in a game. Instead of removing the system, they should fix/improve upon it. We have three ways to change our character outside of gear.
1. Attributes
2. Skills
3. Champion points
Right now champion points are most likely getting changed, and there are quite a few voices on the forum that want it outright removed. Then we're down to only Skills and Attributes if that happens. If we take into consideration the wishes of people in this thread, then the only way we can change our character would be skills. This to me would lead to a very boring game, which lacks RPG elements.
While many people put all of their attribute points into Stamina or Magicka, that's not the case for everyone. People should have the freedom to experiment, even if that means a hybrid build (Stamina + Magicka) or a more tanky DPS (Health + Stamina/Magicka).
The enchant system in ESO is fine, there is no need to change (destroy IMO)it by making these changes to it.
There are so many things in this game that are broken, or not working properly. Instead of changing the things that are working, they should prioritize fixing the things that aren't.Edited by sionIV on May 15, 2019 5:07AM1 -
richo262✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am against removing RPG (character) options in a game. Instead of removing the system, they should fix/improve upon it. We have three ways to change our character outside of gear.
1. Attributes
2. Skills
3. Champion points
Right now champion points are most likely getting changed, and there are quite a few voices on the forum that want it outright removed. Then we're down to only Skills and Attributes if that changes. If we take into consideration the wishes of people in this thread, then the only way we can change our character would be skills. This to me would lead to a very boring game, which lacks RPG elements.
While many people put all of their attribute points into Stamina or Magicka, that's not the case for everyone. People should have the freedom to experiment, even if that means a hybrid build (Stamina + Magicka) or a more tanky DPS (Health + Stamina/Magicka).
The enchant system in ESO is fine, there is no need to change (destroy IMO)it by making these changes to it.
There are so many things in this game that are broken, or not working properly. Instead of changing the things that are working, they should prioritize fixing the things that aren't.
I agree, I do not want a dumbed down system. I am only advocating for this, because we already have a dumbed down system. I'd just like to see it a convenient dumbed down system.
As for your 2nd paragraph, nothing changes, people can still experiment, play how they want, it even buffs hybrid builds as somebody said earlier.
I hope that they keep the skill system, remove the attribute system for buffed enchants and when they rework the CP system, bring in a system that has sufficient customisation to satisfy the RPG element. As it stands, simply keeping a dumbed down system for the sake of 'Muh RPG' when it is ultimately an inconvenience IMO is a burden.
I hope, if they bring in a system with points similar to how CP is conducted, that they allow for multiple profiles.
If changing between DPS / TANK or DPS / HEAL is simply a gear change, skill change, and a [CP REPLACEMENT] profile change, they will be onto a winner.
If I need to burn through gold, or go pray at a shrine, or sing spice girls from a cliff top just to adjust my role, then, meh.0 -
sionIV✭✭✭✭✭I am against removing RPG (character) options in a game. Instead of removing the system, they should fix/improve upon it. We have three ways to change our character outside of gear.
1. Attributes
2. Skills
3. Champion points
Right now champion points are most likely getting changed, and there are quite a few voices on the forum that want it outright removed. Then we're down to only Skills and Attributes if that changes. If we take into consideration the wishes of people in this thread, then the only way we can change our character would be skills. This to me would lead to a very boring game, which lacks RPG elements.
While many people put all of their attribute points into Stamina or Magicka, that's not the case for everyone. People should have the freedom to experiment, even if that means a hybrid build (Stamina + Magicka) or a more tanky DPS (Health + Stamina/Magicka).
The enchant system in ESO is fine, there is no need to change (destroy IMO)it by making these changes to it.
There are so many things in this game that are broken, or not working properly. Instead of changing the things that are working, they should prioritize fixing the things that aren't.
I agree, I do not want a dumbed down system. I am only advocating for this, because we already have a dumbed down system. I'd just like to see it a convenient dumbed down system.
As for your 2nd paragraph, nothing changes, people can still experiment, play how they want, it even buffs hybrid builds as somebody said earlier.
I hope that they keep the skill system, remove the attribute system for buffed enchants and when they rework the CP system, bring in a system that has sufficient customisation to satisfy the RPG element. As it stands, simply keeping a dumbed down system for the sake of 'Muh RPG' when it is ultimately an inconvenience IMO is a burden.
I hope, if they bring in a system with points similar to how CP is conducted, that they allow for multiple profiles.
If changing between DPS / TANK or DPS / HEAL is simply a gear change, skill change, and a [CP REPLACEMENT] profile change, they will be onto a winner.
If I need to burn through gold, or go pray at a shrine, or sing spice girls from a cliff top just to adjust my role, then, meh.
There is a point where convenience weakens other parts of the game, including immersion and gameplay.1 -
richo262✭✭✭✭✭
✭If the attribute system was, or has ever, been meaningful, I would not be advocating to change it.
As for 'immersion', how is putting numbers into a pile of other numbers immersive, whereas in a fantasy role playing game, putting on an enchanted armor (that now provides a little more enchant) not immersive? I'd argue there is more immersion, not less. 'Immersion' just seems to be a buzzword these days.
Gameplay remains the same. Stat pools remains the same.
I am hoping that the RPG element gets satisfied in the CP replacement system. The attribute system has never satisfied it.0 -
richo262✭✭✭✭✭
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I also read that with confusion, I believe his gripe is, people utilise a system to peak efficiency, and therefore, they ... shouldn't? I don't get it either.0 -
sionIV✭✭✭✭✭If the attribute system was, or has ever, been meaningful, I would not be advocating to change it.
As for 'immersion', how is putting numbers into a pile of other numbers immersive, whereas in a fantasy role playing game, putting on an enchanted armor (that now provides a little more enchant) not immersive? I'd argue there is more immersion, not less. 'Immersion' just seems to be a buzzword these days.
Gameplay remains the same. Stat pools remains the same.
I am hoping that the RPG element gets satisfied in the CP replacement system. The attribute system has never satisfied it.
How is it more immersive, that Bob the Warrior goes from being a physical powerhouse (64 Stamina) to Bob the Wizard (64 Magicka) by changing his plate mail to a wizards robe? When you put a point into an attribute, you're customizing, specializing and improving your character. My Warden is different from my friends Warden, because mine is physically strong, while his warden has a high magicka. If we remove those attributes and move the stats to gear instead, then I can just change my gear and we have identical Wardens.
The ability to respecialize was a hit to immersion, but it is a required part of an MMO. We can't get away from respecializing, but we can keep it somewhat expensive (choice & consequences) and make it a meaningful choice. WoW took the path of convenience, and it ended up dumbing down the game and kill the little immersion that it had.
Your choice of Race, Attributes and Mundus stone makes a difference. If they remove attributes, then Race and Mundus stone are next. It's a path you don't want to take.Edited by sionIV on May 15, 2019 5:46AM0 -
richo262✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bob the warrior will only be able to effectively change to Bob the tank. Which is about as immersive as dropping a dagger and picking up a shield.
Bob the wizard will only be able to effectively change to Bob the healer. Which is about as immersive as dropping a destro staff and picking up a healing staff.
Both of those situations do not break immersion at all.
Bob the warrior will not be able to effectively become Bob the wizard without changing his morphs from Stamina to Magicka.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
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I also read that with confusion, I believe his gripe is, people utilise a system to peak efficiency, and therefore, they ... shouldn't? I don't get it either.
Yea, but in any MMORPG where we can change things people will min/max their builds. That is pretty much any MMORPG.
A great many players want to do the best job they can. As you seem to agree, it seems odd to blame those who choose to excel for game systems they had nothing to do with. A heavy dash of salt I guess.0 -
richo262✭✭✭✭✭
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I also read that with confusion, I believe his gripe is, people utilise a system to peak efficiency, and therefore, they ... shouldn't? I don't get it either.
Yea, but in any MMORPG where we can change things people will min/max their builds. That is pretty much any MMORPG.
A great many players want to do the best job they can. As you seem to agree, it seems odd to blame those who choose to excel for game systems they had nothing to do with. A heavy dash of salt I guess.
I do not agree to blame min/maxers, which is why I was confused with his statement.0 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'm confused.
Why are we worried about an issue that is not a problem? Why would we want a change to something that does not need changing? You want to take something away and then "adjust" other items to get same result?
What sense does that make?
At least with the way it is, people do have the opportunity to make their own decisions. Sure, the vast majority are going to go 64 all in one direction. But that is no reason to take the decision away from the players.
IMHO
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richo262✭✭✭✭✭
✭barney2525 wrote: »I'm confused.
Why are we worried about an issue that is not a problem? Why would we want a change to something that does not need changing? You want to take something away and then "adjust" other items to get same result?
What sense does that make?
At least with the way it is, people do have the opportunity to make their own decisions. Sure, the vast majority are going to go 64 all in one direction. But that is no reason to take the decision away from the players.
IMHO
If you read the motivation behind it and why many agree it is simple.
It allows for DPS to transition into tank much easier, mag dps to transition into heal much easier (already pretty easy, but some healers may want to run a hp/ tri-stat enchant).
This can be extremely helpful mid trial, some trials either require, or benefit from a 2nd tank at certain bosses. A DPS that can swap out to tank on the fly is extremely convenient.
There is also the fact that the attribute system is, and has always been, pretty weak. Removing it in exchange for buffed enchants does not take any decision away from anybody, those decisions can be made elsewhere. Enchanting allows you place any enchant on any item, purple enchants are dirt cheap and gold enchants are cheaper than the current respec system. You can actually make more choices this way and rely more on an already good system (enchanting).
Attribute system has 1 point in 3 categories. Enchanting has Health, Stam, Magicka and Tri-stat. There are 4 options in enchanting, rather than 3. This also greatly benefits hybrid builds that are under utilised.
Not to mention this will likely improve the dungeon finder as I, and many, would probably work on having all my Stam DPS being able to turn into a dungeon viable tank.Edited by richo262 on May 15, 2019 10:44AM0 -
CaliMade✭✭✭✭No no no, its fine as it is. No need to be small minded.
“ Nobody i know mixes up their attribute points, that means nobody does!”
foh
XB1 GT- Cali Made
Praetorian Stam DK Redguard
Brigadier Stam/magblade (whatever i feel like running) Redguard
Major Mag DK Dark Elf
lieutenant Mag/stamplar (whatever i feel like running) Redguard0 -
richo262✭✭✭✭✭
✭No no no, its fine as it is. No need to be small minded.
“ Nobody i know mixes up their attribute points, that means nobody does!”
foh
I don't think anybody said that. I didn't, and that certainly isn't what this idea is about. Having a fourth option (tri-stat) allows for further mixing up, not less.
Imagine if the current attribute system had the option for this
1 Point in Magicka
1 Point in Stamina
1 Point in Health
0.4 Point in Magicka, Stamina and Health.
That would be what the options would be like if those bonuses transitioned into enchanting.Edited by richo262 on May 15, 2019 11:32AM0 -
Uryel✭✭✭✭✭
✭The whole relation between attributes and combat efficiency is utterly bad. "To deal more damage with stamina skill, you must have more stamina". Basically meaning "never use magicka abilities, or else they hit / heal / whatever for sh*t".
And since most mechanics are geared towards dealing maximum damage in a short time, it's not exactly adding to diversity. I'm still waiting to actually see that so-called diversity that update 21 was supposed to bring. Maybe in PvP, it was a PvP update after all, barely veiled.
Now, what I'd like to see is 3 attributes allright, but not the ones we have. I'd like those ones :
- Health, to place emphasis on survival.
- Energy Pool, that would define both how high the pool is and how fast it regenerates, to place emphasis on sustain
- Power, that defines the strength of abilities, all sorts of abilities, and places emphasis on making each hit / heal / buff / debuff count
Either we keep both pools, and they both benefit from the Energy attribute, or we fuse them into a single one and all abilities draw from the same. You could chose to be able to spam abilities faster and more often or make each ability have a major effect, or balance that any way you like. This would make anything we call "hybrid" instantly viable, every morph would be valid, providing alot more diversity and bringing builds that are today either inefficient or entirely useless to the battlefield successfully.
No more chosing the stam morph because you are stam based even though you like the effect of the magicka morph better but it won't work. Out with the awkwardness that ressource pools define ability strength is. In with creative builds and many more combat options.
I could even forgive the loss of my Bosmer's stealth if that were to happen. Of course, it won't.0 -
richo262✭✭✭✭✭
✭If everything went into one pool, and every morph was valid. You'd just end up with 1 min/max build per class. You'd end up with fewer options.
Also damage doesn't scale on your Stamina/Magicka, it scales on your MAX Stamina/Magicka. So you can still spend it as you wish, your damage doesn't lower as you deplete it.
Stamina also has a other uses, ie sprint / roll dodge / block. One pool may result in ninja mages, which, might be odd.
Tanking as well is more about resource management, many skills are designed to draw from one pool and into the other. If it was one pool, well, tanking would become dryer than it already is as resource management is not required. They won't put any points into power. It would also mean the ability to switch between DPS / Tank has become even less viable.Edited by richo262 on May 15, 2019 12:22PM0
