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Is the attribute system even required?
richo262
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It's pretty weak, either full Stam / full mag for DPS. Often full mag for healers, it is only tanks that seem to mix things up.
Would it be more effective if the attribute system was scrapped and the armor enchants buffed instead? IE, a full stam dps with mostly stam enchants = same stam pool as they presently have with 64 Att and mostly stam enchants. Not interested in it being a buff / nerf, simply the same outcome via enchants instead.
I would see that as a QOL improvement. A stam DPS could swap out to a tank by simply swapping out gear and a few skills without having to go to a shrine.
The only people that may be inconvenienced would be sub level 50 players with a mishmash of items. Perhaps have it as something that happens when a player hits Level 50, CP160.
Would it be more effective if the attribute system was scrapped and the armor enchants buffed instead? IE, a full stam dps with mostly stam enchants = same stam pool as they presently have with 64 Att and mostly stam enchants. Not interested in it being a buff / nerf, simply the same outcome via enchants instead.
I would see that as a QOL improvement. A stam DPS could swap out to a tank by simply swapping out gear and a few skills without having to go to a shrine.
The only people that may be inconvenienced would be sub level 50 players with a mishmash of items. Perhaps have it as something that happens when a player hits Level 50, CP160.
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Elwendryll✭✭✭✭✭
✭I like the idea, a lot. But Infused should be balanced accordingly...Edited by Elwendryll on May 14, 2019 3:25PMPC - EU - France - AD
Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
Guildmaster of Oriflamme: Focus on 4 player endgame content.
Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.
All 4-man trifectas - TTT, IR, GH2 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭You also see more diversity in pvp. To me it's just another knob to fiddle, just like every stat. I think it's just a question of whether you want more knobs or less.2 -
richo262✭✭✭✭✭
✭You also see more diversity in pvp. To me it's just another knob to fiddle, just like every stat. I think it's just a question of whether you want more knobs or less.
True, I didn't factor in PVP, however with Health, Mag, Stam and Tri-Stat enchants it is always possible to achieve that outcome. It would also be a good income source for PVP players because Tri-Stat might be used by PVE tanks more often increasing their demand.
Yeah, infused would have to have a similar ratio bonus to what it gives presently.1 -
ghastley✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You need to leave a few parts of the equations hard to change, or you'll spend all your time fiddling. With attributes taking a shrine visit and payment, players are guided to making their fine adjustments in equipment, which is where it belongs. CP may be taking a lesser part in future, too, but that remains to be seen.4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would see that as a QOL improvement. A stam DPS could swap out to a tank by simply swapping out gear and a few skills without having to go to a shrine.
They can as it is. I often tank on my stam DPS without changing my attributes. It is not that big of a deal and you are clearly not tanking anything serious if you are not talking CP so you should be fine.0 -
Synnastix✭✭✭✭I vote no - I spec health because I’m a noob and don’t like to rely on shields or die. I can swap between mag / stam by switching sets, but my health is always there. If you go the tri-stat route, remember those aren’t easy for casuals to come by and it still forces me to take up a stat I don’t care about at the moment. If you want to introduce bi-stat enchants then the argument is better, but still doesn’t allow as much flex as the current system.
Leave it alone.3 -
Red_Feather✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Secret World redid their whole system to much praise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TiNGusWDq8&t=4m40s 0 -
startstriker✭✭✭Attributes should only be a resource for casting spells/ability’s I’d personally prefer if they reworked it more in tune with the other elder scroll games e.g no heavy attack for regaining stamina (makes no sense at all)0
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david_m_18b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Thats pretty much what I was thinking. Remove the stats allowance and upp the enchant value.
You wouldn't any of the min/max value since you can mix match your enchant already but it would be easier to play tank + X role.
Most tank build mix all 3 atribute while stam dps go full stam and magicka full magicka.
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Interesting idea. 64 attribute points gives 7104 Magicka or Stamina, or 7808 health. If we directly shift these into armor enchants it would add 1544 Mag/Stam (for 2412 total) or 1697 Health (for 2651 total) to a large armor enchant. Small armor enchants would maintain their current 40% of this value. Infused would need to be reduced from 20% to 7-8% to maintain its current strength.
To take this a step further, I would be in favor of normalizing all armor enchants, instead of the unintuitive 3 large + 4 small system. To make this work I’m addition to removing attributes and shifting those stats into armor enchants, we could simply take the total Magicka or Stamina we get from armor enchants and attributes combined (11096) and divide that across 7 armor enchants, for 1586 Mag or Stam per piece. Health would follow the typical 1.1X ratio for 1744 per piece. Prismatic enchants would give 793 Mag, 793 Stam, 872 Health. Infused could be 11%-12% increase in armor enchants (making it viable on small armor pieces for the first time, while still being slightly weaker than divines for most builds).
The only balance change this would bring is that shield enchants would get a buff. I think this is fine since armor enchants are much weaker than weapon enchants in general, and the weapon enchant strength while using a shield was recently cut in half.
Edit: It would also be a buff to hybrid builds, since tri-glyphs are more efficient than splitting attribute points three ways. This is a good thing, hybrids are underpowered.Edited by WrathOfInnos on May 14, 2019 5:17PM2 -
richo262✭✭✭✭✭
✭I vote no - I spec health because I’m a noob and don’t like to rely on shields or die. I can swap between mag / stam by switching sets, but my health is always there. If you go the tri-stat route, remember those aren’t easy for casuals to come by and it still forces me to take up a stat I don’t care about at the moment. If you want to introduce bi-stat enchants then the argument is better, but still doesn’t allow as much flex as the current system.
Leave it alone.
You can still do that. Most people run at least one heavy piece, which natively has HP on it. You can also get HP from food. If that is not enough, simply put a HP enchant on the chest / leg pieces.
Tri-Stat is not required for casuals. Tri-Stat is really for those that wish to min / max and do veteran content.
A tank with 30HP, 30Stam, 4Mag could achieve that by having half the pieces HP, half Stam and 1 piece Mag.
The only issue I can see would be a tank that has shield on one bar and a Staff on the other, the shields enchant would be causing the stat pool to fluctuate (more so than it presently does given the enchant boost), so you would just place a 10 second delay on it. Meaning if a tank stays on staff for 10 seconds the pools correct. If he swaps back to shield before 10 seconds the pools do not change. That should be how it is anyway IMO.Edited by richo262 on May 14, 2019 5:17PM0 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Attributes used to mean so much much more when we had soft caps. Now, we go all in on 1 of the 3 and call it good.Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"5 -
NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not many ideas flow onto the forums these days that I actually agree with, but this I certainly do.
We had a thread here recently that garnered a bit of attention relating to “what would get more players to try out the tank role”. It had many ideas but mainly it comes down to IMO that it’s convenience. You can't really run a full tank spec and farm efficiently or grind mobs etc. Tying roles more in line with the gear/enchants instead of the stat choices would make switching it up easier.
There is a small argument to be made for the inexperienced, and how they build from the early stages of the game. But for me it may actually make the system much easier to come to terms with. Many new players in our guild back on the PS4 had no idea where they even wanted to place these stats, with many of them doing an even spread across the board, I know, and it took us a long time to even discover this to point them in the right direction because it just seemed so basic to those with experience.
Unfortunately though, I can imagine that making changes to this system, being that it is the most baseline standard of building couldn't be very straight forward for the devs. Taking into account, scaling, levelling, gearing, starter gear that comes without enchants, etc. It just plays into everything that comes after and could be quite challenging or time consuming.PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.0 -
richo262✭✭✭✭✭
✭They would also, for lowbies, need to have enchants on all items. White items with no trait is fine, but white items with no enchant might be a pain to start off with.1 -
crazywolfpusher✭✭✭Every patch more skills are scaling from our biggest resource pool, which is kinda wierd since damage oriented (mostly) still require a penetration type you don't necessarily have.
Sorc Atronach does shock damage
DK Flames of Oblivion does flame damage
Penetration shouldnt make any difference from physical/spell and then every skill in the game should scale from your biggest pool resource.
This would add lot diversity to the game.Edited by crazywolfpusher on May 14, 2019 6:23PM1 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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Indeed, and I find it rather vexing.Attributes used to mean so much much more when we had soft caps. Now, we go all in on 1 of the 3 and call it good.
Wish we had softcaps back.
Also wish there were effects to stats other then the damage-drivers... like, health. Wish you would take additional damage for weak health... like, say, extra damage from poisons and disease damage, and affext DoT effects in various ways, like longer duration for posions and additional debuff from bleeding, or extra effect from fire... that way people who'd skimp on the health would soon regret it as they die from things people with a more balanced setup just walk off...
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Vandril✭✭✭✭They should untie damage bonuses from Magicka and Stamina pools and instead tie them to the number of Attribute Points we put into Magicka or Stamina instead. Then they should add a defensive effect to Health Attribute Points. Any additional resources from other means should be exactly that, just additional resources, and should not increase damage/defenses.
Personally, I wish they'd untie damage from resource pools entirely, that way hybrid builds could be that much closer to effective, but just tying damage to Attribute Points instead of resource pools would at least make the Attribute system meaningful.3 -
BNOC✭✭✭✭✭It can actually be useful if you’re just trying to swap out a particular amount of stats for another without re-glyphing etc
It’s already there and can be used and if you never change yours, you never change them; might as well leave it for those that dovMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)0 -
richo262✭✭✭✭✭
✭It can actually be useful if you’re just trying to swap out a particular amount of stats for another without re-glyphing etc
It’s already there and can be used and if you never change yours, you never change them; might as well leave it for those that do
I think you'll find it is the same thing.
Re-enchanting something can be really cheap if you use purple, about 2.6k if you use gold. If you do enchant writs, you probably have plenty.
Price of an Att respec? 3,200g.
The reason I'm raising this, is because if the Att benefit flowed with the enchant, you can change it just be swapping sets, you can change your entire role on the fly, mid dungeon, mid trial, without needing to respec.
You can offtank nMOL, then swap out dps gear after boss 2, and your attributes will flow to suit a DPS role without having to port back to respec.0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Red_Feather wrote: »Secret World redid their whole system to much praise.
Which version of the game are you talking about, the first one that did poorly or the remake that didn't do much better?1 -
Drako_Ei✭✭✭✭✭I vote no - I spec health because I’m a noob and don’t like to rely on shields or die. I can swap between mag / stam by switching sets, but my health is always there. If you go the tri-stat route, remember those aren’t easy for casuals to come by and it still forces me to take up a stat I don’t care about at the moment. If you want to introduce bi-stat enchants then the argument is better, but still doesn’t allow as much flex as the current system.
Leave it alone.
You can still do that. Most people run at least one heavy piece, which natively has HP on it. You can also get HP from food. If that is not enough, simply put a HP enchant on the chest / leg pieces.
Tri-Stat is not required for casuals. Tri-Stat is really for those that wish to min / max and do veteran content.
A tank with 30HP, 30Stam, 4Mag could achieve that by having half the pieces HP, half Stam and 1 piece Mag.
The only issue I can see would be a tank that has shield on one bar and a Staff on the other, the shields enchant would be causing the stat pool to fluctuate (more so than it presently does given the enchant boost), so you would just place a 10 second delay on it. Meaning if a tank stays on staff for 10 seconds the pools correct. If he swaps back to shield before 10 seconds the pools do not change. That should be how it is anyway IMO.
Only tanks do tristat... no one takes 20k hp dps into veteran trials0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I vote no - I spec health because I’m a noob and don’t like to rely on shields or die. I can swap between mag / stam by switching sets, but my health is always there. If you go the tri-stat route, remember those aren’t easy for casuals to come by and it still forces me to take up a stat I don’t care about at the moment. If you want to introduce bi-stat enchants then the argument is better, but still doesn’t allow as much flex as the current system.
Leave it alone.
You can still do that. Most people run at least one heavy piece, which natively has HP on it. You can also get HP from food. If that is not enough, simply put a HP enchant on the chest / leg pieces.
Tri-Stat is not required for casuals. Tri-Stat is really for those that wish to min / max and do veteran content.
A tank with 30HP, 30Stam, 4Mag could achieve that by having half the pieces HP, half Stam and 1 piece Mag.
The only issue I can see would be a tank that has shield on one bar and a Staff on the other, the shields enchant would be causing the stat pool to fluctuate (more so than it presently does given the enchant boost), so you would just place a 10 second delay on it. Meaning if a tank stays on staff for 10 seconds the pools correct. If he swaps back to shield before 10 seconds the pools do not change. That should be how it is anyway IMO.
Only tanks do tristat... no one takes 20k hp dps into veteran trials
Every mag DPS build will be running 20k hp next week if the food changes on PTS make it to live. Clockwork Citrus and Witchmothers were changed to be useless, and Ghastly Eyebowl is still significantly underpowered, while Bloody Mara was buffed to be the best food in the game (and brings almost 6k health).
Stam builds will have to pick between Lava Foot (and invest in health another way) or blue bistat food (and invest in regen another way).2 -
RogueShark✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tank healers in vAS HM will often swap around attributes to give them more health. I don't see anything wrong with the attribute system as it is. I'd rather change around attributes for whatever reason than constantly re-enchant stuff.PC NA
Will heal DPS for memes.0 -
richo262✭✭✭✭✭
✭I vote no - I spec health because I’m a noob and don’t like to rely on shields or die. I can swap between mag / stam by switching sets, but my health is always there. If you go the tri-stat route, remember those aren’t easy for casuals to come by and it still forces me to take up a stat I don’t care about at the moment. If you want to introduce bi-stat enchants then the argument is better, but still doesn’t allow as much flex as the current system.
Leave it alone.
You can still do that. Most people run at least one heavy piece, which natively has HP on it. You can also get HP from food. If that is not enough, simply put a HP enchant on the chest / leg pieces.
Tri-Stat is not required for casuals. Tri-Stat is really for those that wish to min / max and do veteran content.
A tank with 30HP, 30Stam, 4Mag could achieve that by having half the pieces HP, half Stam and 1 piece Mag.
The only issue I can see would be a tank that has shield on one bar and a Staff on the other, the shields enchant would be causing the stat pool to fluctuate (more so than it presently does given the enchant boost), so you would just place a 10 second delay on it. Meaning if a tank stays on staff for 10 seconds the pools correct. If he swaps back to shield before 10 seconds the pools do not change. That should be how it is anyway IMO.
Only tanks do tristat... no one takes 20k hp dps into veteran trials
I agree, in that it is not the goal to achieve 20k hp, I was responding to somebody whose playstyle requires hp because he is, well, not interested in DPS.Edited by richo262 on May 15, 2019 4:07AM0 -
richo262✭✭✭✭✭
✭RogueShark wrote: »Tank healers in vAS HM will often swap around attributes to give them more health. I don't see anything wrong with the attribute system as it is. I'd rather change around attributes for whatever reason than constantly re-enchant stuff.
What I ultimately would like to see is the attribute system scrapped and enchants buffed. Then have it so that when you add an enchant to an item it adds an enchant to an item, but there is an option to cycle between all enchants that have been placed on that item.
So a Chest that was found with the Health Enchant, but you added Tri-Stat to it, you now have the option of Health or Tri-stat. The goal of this is to allow players to be able to swap out on the fly without it being a pain, without having to leave the dungeon to go to a shrine. The cost will be in Kuta, not some praying to a shrine.Edited by richo262 on May 15, 2019 3:51AM0 -
Casul✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is an amazing idea, I love it.Edited by Casul on May 15, 2019 4:12AMPvP needs more love.0 -
Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Not sure they will ever do this because it seems if I remember correctly ZOS at one point said that a lot of people did not even enchant their gear or weapons at lower levels. While a good idea for those of us that have played awhile I do see it possibly hurting newer players.0 -
richo262✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not sure they will ever do this because it seems if I remember correctly ZOS at one point said that a lot of people did not even enchant their gear or weapons at lower levels. While a good idea for those of us that have played awhile I do see it possibly hurting newer players.
Agreed, I see that potential as well.
Which is why I did preface that with these possible solutions.
1) All gear drops with an enchant, even white gear (can still be traitless items though) and / or;
2) This does not go into effect until Level 50, CP160. At that point all attributes are stripped and all enchants are buffed.
After all, the players that would benefit from it would be players in the late game and they have the luxury of chopping and changing between sets. I do not wish for this to burden new players.
I prefer 1) because it won't hinder lowbies, and also teach lowbies the enchant system. It is also cleaner, and people hitting CP160 won't be confused as to wtf just happened to their attributes.0