Proposed solution to new Incap / shields

HEBREWHAMMERRR · May 2019

So this has been a huge outcry from the community, only comparable to the 1s shield cast change they tried to roll out. I know a large portion of the playerbase in a fuss about this has not actually played this on PTS, myself included. That being said I have, in my opinion, a good solution for counterplay to mag characters while leaving the change.

Revert or buff up the shield uptime nerf. This offers mag characters counterplay similar to the old days when sorc / magblades would always keep shields up and they would actually last a reasonable amount of time. This buff wouldn’t affect a ton as the crittable shields go down pretty quick, but this would force mag chars to be cautious of keeping shields up at all times as a form of counterplay to the silence.

In regard as to the incap change : I don’t think it’s a bad idea, the addition of another class having a silence, while solo target, is still very good in current pvp. Healing is rampant and a stamblades group utility is minimal at best currently. This provides more of a niche roll similar to a negate from a sorc on a smaller scale. The stamblade assassin class identity is back with this change and in a group environment having a solo target damage dealer able to silence a healer in a group environment is an interesting changed proposal. I like reave as it gives some sustain back in form of a somewhat “mini game”. I look forward to trying this on my magblade and think it isn’t the end of the world.

Tl;dr : keep the incap change, revert or buff the shield uptime nerf maybe to 15-20 seconds. Provides counterplay and nightblade has a new utility tool that provides some better counterplay to a healer.

Thoughts?

HEBREWHAMMERRR · May 2019

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Idea to solve the incap counterplay for mag characters.

casparian · May 2019

this would force mag chars to be cautious of keeping shields up at all times as a form of counterplay to the silence

I think you mean it would let some mag classes counter the silence with shield uptime. Wouldn’t help magplar or magDK.

Sanguinor2 · May 2019

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

So this has been a huge outcry from the community, only comparable to the 1s shield cast change they tried to roll out. I know a large portion of the playerbase in a fuss about this has not actually played this on PTS, myself included. That being said I have, in my opinion, a good solution for counterplay to mag characters while leaving the change.

Revert or buff up the shield uptime nerf. This offers mag characters counterplay similar to the old days when sorc / magblades would always keep shields up and they would actually last a reasonable amount of time. This buff wouldn’t affect a ton as the crittable shields go down pretty quick, but this would force mag chars to be cautious of keeping shields up at all times as a form of counterplay to the silence.

In regard as to the incap change : I don’t think it’s a bad idea, the addition of another class having a silence, while solo target, is still very good in current pvp. Healing is rampant and a stamblades group utility is minimal at best currently. This provides more of a niche roll similar to a negate from a sorc on a smaller scale. The stamblade assassin class identity is back with this change and in a group environment having a solo target damage dealer able to silence a healer in a group environment is an interesting changed proposal. I like reave as it gives some sustain back in form of a somewhat “mini game”. I look forward to trying this on my magblade and think it isn’t the end of the world.

Tl;dr : keep the incap change, revert or buff the shield uptime nerf maybe to 15-20 seconds. Provides counterplay and nightblade has a new utility tool that provides some better counterplay to a healer.

Thoughts?

Looking Forward to stacking 50k+ HP for igneous and sun Shield.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · May 2019

casparian wrote: »

this would force mag chars to be cautious of keeping shields up at all times as a form of counterplay to the silence

I think you mean it would let some mag classes counter the silence with shield uptime. Wouldn’t help magplar or magDK.

MagDK have a lot of resistances and most good ones I know are using harness for sustain. Surely they could survive 3s of stamblade burst. Magplar im not entirely familiar with.

Sanguinor2 · May 2019

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

this would force mag chars to be cautious of keeping shields up at all times as a form of counterplay to the silence

I think you mean it would let some mag classes counter the silence with shield uptime. Wouldn’t help magplar or magDK.

MagDK have a lot of resistances and most good ones I know are using harness for sustain. Surely they could survive 3s of stamblade burst. Magplar im not entirely familiar with.

But one precast harness wont be enough to stop 3 seconds of stamblade burst, it would still end up being Incredible pressure and some templars use harness too but most templars defense is blockcasting BoL because you have Nothing else.
That aside I find it very concerning that People actually think that disabling each and every ability one Player has without conterplay to make an Encounter completely onesided is actually fair and balanced.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · May 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

So this has been a huge outcry from the community, only comparable to the 1s shield cast change they tried to roll out. I know a large portion of the playerbase in a fuss about this has not actually played this on PTS, myself included. That being said I have, in my opinion, a good solution for counterplay to mag characters while leaving the change.

Revert or buff up the shield uptime nerf. This offers mag characters counterplay similar to the old days when sorc / magblades would always keep shields up and they would actually last a reasonable amount of time. This buff wouldn’t affect a ton as the crittable shields go down pretty quick, but this would force mag chars to be cautious of keeping shields up at all times as a form of counterplay to the silence.

In regard as to the incap change : I don’t think it’s a bad idea, the addition of another class having a silence, while solo target, is still very good in current pvp. Healing is rampant and a stamblades group utility is minimal at best currently. This provides more of a niche roll similar to a negate from a sorc on a smaller scale. The stamblade assassin class identity is back with this change and in a group environment having a solo target damage dealer able to silence a healer in a group environment is an interesting changed proposal. I like reave as it gives some sustain back in form of a somewhat “mini game”. I look forward to trying this on my magblade and think it isn’t the end of the world.

Tl;dr : keep the incap change, revert or buff the shield uptime nerf maybe to 15-20 seconds. Provides counterplay and nightblade has a new utility tool that provides some better counterplay to a healer.

Thoughts?

Looking Forward to stacking 50k+ HP for igneous and sun Shield.

That’ll do the trick too. Lol

casparian · May 2019

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

this would force mag chars to be cautious of keeping shields up at all times as a form of counterplay to the silence

I think you mean it would let some mag classes counter the silence with shield uptime. Wouldn’t help magplar or magDK.

MagDK have a lot of resistances and most good ones I know are using harness for sustain. Surely they could survive 3s of stamblade burst. Magplar im not entirely familiar with.

I’ve run magDK successfully with harness, with and without Crutch Master. It can work, but building the sole counter to stamblade into shields would be an unfortunate nerf to build diversity IMO.

Magplar hasn’t run shields of any kind (even in light armor) since the days of Blazing Shield being good.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · May 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

this would force mag chars to be cautious of keeping shields up at all times as a form of counterplay to the silence

I think you mean it would let some mag classes counter the silence with shield uptime. Wouldn’t help magplar or magDK.

MagDK have a lot of resistances and most good ones I know are using harness for sustain. Surely they could survive 3s of stamblade burst. Magplar im not entirely familiar with.

But one precast harness wont be enough to stop 3 seconds of stamblade burst, it would still end up being Incredible pressure and some templars use harness too but most templars defense is blockcasting BoL because you have Nothing else.
That aside I find it very concerning that People actually think that disabling each and every ability one Player has without conterplay to make an Encounter completely onesided is actually fair and balanced.

Most magDK I know are rocking 25k+ resistances and harness. If they’ve got wings up too I don’t see a stamblade burning through this in 3s man. Plus the shield is just a buffer. Mag characters can still hit a roll dodge. In this meta if you’re mag and not running 13k+ stam I don’t think you’re doing it right.

Sanguinor2 · May 2019

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Most magDK I know are rocking 25k+ resistances and harness. If they’ve got wings up too I don’t see a stamblade burning through this in 3s man. Plus the shield is just a buffer. Mag characters can still hit a roll dodge. In this meta if you’re mag and not running 13k+ stam I don’t think you’re doing it right.

If you are a mag character and have to use ca.10k+ stam to avoid a not cc and can get cced immidiately after you are *** unless you run the infamous bone pirate hulking draugr magplar in no cp.
Im running 15k stam in no cp so I seem to be doing it Right but 2 consecutive dodgerolls to avoid the majority of incap will cost 10k and god forbid I have to ever block or cc break something, so glad that actually never happens.
Stamblades dont give a damn About wings, with incap, master dual wield bleed, Twin blade and blunt bleed, SA spam and all that being increased by 20%, 25k+ resistances wont save you from heavy ticking bleeds from a 6k weapon dmg heavy armor "tankblade".
Its not alone About Burning through you in 3 seconds but in an Extended fight you will completely drain any Stamina of every mag character with incap+cc after Combo because either you stand there and take it and die or you dodge break free after and waste all your stam and die 6 seconds after.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · May 2019

casparian wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

this would force mag chars to be cautious of keeping shields up at all times as a form of counterplay to the silence

I think you mean it would let some mag classes counter the silence with shield uptime. Wouldn’t help magplar or magDK.

MagDK have a lot of resistances and most good ones I know are using harness for sustain. Surely they could survive 3s of stamblade burst. Magplar im not entirely familiar with.

I’ve run magDK successfully with harness, with and without Crutch Master. It can work, but building the sole counter to stamblade into shields would be an unfortunate nerf to build diversity IMO.

Magplar hasn’t run shields of any kind (even in light armor) since the days of Blazing Shield being good.

Idk about access to HoTs but with nightblade doing 8% less damage while also losing defile and whatever buff they lost to their surprise attack I don’t think 3s is a huge deal. A nightblade isn’t going to build up a bow in 3s, if you know the build up is coming, bow is the easiest and most telegraphed burst in the game. Pre buff/shield/roll hots. Sacrifice some stam with a dodge roll. There’s plenty of counterplay in my opinion, it’s a single target ability. I didn’t see this huge outcry when negate tanks were running rampant in group play with an aoe silence and spamming roots on entire groups lol

Sanguinor2 · May 2019

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Idk about access to HoTs but with nightblade doing 8% less damage while also losing defile and whatever buff they lost to their surprise attack I don’t think 3s is a huge deal. A nightblade isn’t going to build up a bow in 3s, if you know the build up is coming, bow is the easiest and most telegraphed burst in the game. Pre buff/shield/roll hots. Sacrifice some stam with a dodge roll. There’s plenty of counterplay in my opinion, it’s a single target ability. I didn’t see this huge outcry when negate tanks were running rampant in group play with an aoe silence and spamming roots on entire groups lol

If I can just run out of the incap and all its debuffs and pressure magically disapear I wont complain

.

mague · May 2019

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

this would force mag chars to be cautious of keeping shields up at all times as a form of counterplay to the silence

I think you mean it would let some mag classes counter the silence with shield uptime. Wouldn’t help magplar or magDK.

MagDK have a lot of resistances and most good ones I know are using harness for sustain. Surely they could survive 3s of stamblade burst. Magplar im not entirely familiar with.

Doesnt matter. They never come alone to take out a magplar healer or warpriest.

Any group has its priorities when it is about targets

In think most players wont see any difference between stun and silenced. Maybe duelists... Thats just a theoretical problem.. not a practical.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · May 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Most magDK I know are rocking 25k+ resistances and harness. If they’ve got wings up too I don’t see a stamblade burning through this in 3s man. Plus the shield is just a buffer. Mag characters can still hit a roll dodge. In this meta if you’re mag and not running 13k+ stam I don’t think you’re doing it right.

If you are a mag character and have to use ca.10k+ stam to avoid a not cc and can get cced immidiately after you are *** unless you run the infamous bone pirate hulking draugr magplar in no cp.
Im running 15k stam in no cp so I seem to be doing it Right but 2 consecutive dodgerolls to avoid the majority of incap will cost 10k and god forbid I have to ever block or cc break something, so glad that actually never happens.
Stamblades dont give a damn About wings, with incap, master dual wield bleed, Twin blade and blunt bleed, SA spam and all that being increased by 20%, 25k+ resistances wont save you from heavy ticking bleeds from a 6k weapon dmg heavy armor "tankblade".
Its not alone About Burning through you in 3 seconds but in an Extended fight you will completely drain any Stamina of every mag character with incap+cc after Combo because either you stand there and take it and die or you dodge break free after and waste all your stam and die 6 seconds after.

I actually forgot to mention that in my post, you just reminded me. I DO think that the silence ability is a disabling effect. It 100% should trigger the cc immunity just like a break free. I would hope that’s the case but as stated, I’m not on pts to try unfortunately.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · May 2019

mague wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

this would force mag chars to be cautious of keeping shields up at all times as a form of counterplay to the silence

I think you mean it would let some mag classes counter the silence with shield uptime. Wouldn’t help magplar or magDK.

MagDK have a lot of resistances and most good ones I know are using harness for sustain. Surely they could survive 3s of stamblade burst. Magplar im not entirely familiar with.

Doesnt matter. They never come alone to take out a magplar healer or warpriest. Any group has its priorities when it is about targets

In think most players wont see any difference between stun and silenced. Maybe duelists... Thats just a theoretical problem.. not a practical.

For sure. I think a single target silence is nice for a stamblade to contribute to group play a tad more and be able to silence a healer especially in a BG aspect where one team having a dedicated healer can be extremely hard toccoordinate a burst on.

ZarkingFrued · May 2019

YOU CAN NOT COUNTER THIS. THERE IS NO WAY TO STAY ALIVE ON A MAG CHARACTER WHILE SILENCED. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. ITS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO PUT SKILLS THAT ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO COUNTER FOR EVERY MAG CLASS IN AN MMO. THIS IS NOT COUNTERPLAY, ITS A WIN BUTTON.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · May 2019

Another interesting take, mag character could Slot mutagen. If you fall below the hp threshold you consume the heal and remove the silence or other negative effect. Just a thought. I think HoTs will be a big counter to this with no defile.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · May 2019

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

YOU CAN NOT COUNTER THIS. THERE IS NO WAY TO STAY ALIVE ON A MAG CHARACTER WHILE SILENCED. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. ITS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO PUT SKILLS THAT ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO COUNTER FOR EVERY MAG CLASS IN AN MMO. THIS IS NOT COUNTERPLAY, ITS A WIN BUTTON.

What an insightful and solution filled response. Did you read any of this thread or am I feeding a /s troll?

Sanguinor2 · May 2019

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Another interesting take, mag character could Slot mutagen. If you fall below the hp threshold you consume the heal and remove the silence or other negative effect. Just a thought. I think HoTs will be a big counter to this with no defile.

Yes lets force every single mag build to run resto because one out of Control ultimate and make every Encounter a gamble if the Right or wrong debuff gets removed, its also very convenient that the silence will be the only debuff on you good Thing no stambuild runs bleeds, fracture, maim, defile, Poison injection depending on which weapons they use.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · May 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Another interesting take, mag character could Slot mutagen. If you fall below the hp threshold you consume the heal and remove the silence or other negative effect. Just a thought. I think HoTs will be a big counter to this with no defile.

Yes lets force every single mag build to run resto because one out of Control ultimate and make every Encounter a gamble if the Right or wrong debuff gets removed, its also very convenient that the silence will be the only debuff on you good Thing no stambuild runs bleeds, fracture, maim, defile, Poison injection depending on which weapons they use.

So my question is if you’re a mag char block casting with a s/b what’s the counterplay to this? A purgable defile? Gotta look at both sides of it. I’m a magblade so I don’t have much skin in this game but everyone acting like the sky is falling im trying to point out solutions and counterplay to this.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · May 2019

What if incap provided heal absorb? This would still provide the same counterplay to healers while still being able to utilize abilities? Just another though on it.

jaws343 · May 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Most magDK I know are rocking 25k+ resistances and harness. If they’ve got wings up too I don’t see a stamblade burning through this in 3s man. Plus the shield is just a buffer. Mag characters can still hit a roll dodge. In this meta if you’re mag and not running 13k+ stam I don’t think you’re doing it right.

If you are a mag character and have to use ca.10k+ stam to avoid a not cc and can get cced immidiately after you are *** unless you run the infamous bone pirate hulking draugr magplar in no cp.
Im running 15k stam in no cp so I seem to be doing it Right but 2 consecutive dodgerolls to avoid the majority of incap will cost 10k and god forbid I have to ever block or cc break something, so glad that actually never happens.
Stamblades dont give a damn About wings, with incap, master dual wield bleed, Twin blade and blunt bleed, SA spam and all that being increased by 20%, 25k+ resistances wont save you from heavy ticking bleeds from a 6k weapon dmg heavy armor "tankblade".
Its not alone About Burning through you in 3 seconds but in an Extended fight you will completely drain any Stamina of every mag character with incap+cc after Combo because either you stand there and take it and die or you dodge break free after and waste all your stam and die 6 seconds after.

That's a thing? Interesting.

Sanguinor2 · May 2019

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Another interesting take, mag character could Slot mutagen. If you fall below the hp threshold you consume the heal and remove the silence or other negative effect. Just a thought. I think HoTs will be a big counter to this with no defile.

Yes lets force every single mag build to run resto because one out of Control ultimate and make every Encounter a gamble if the Right or wrong debuff gets removed, its also very convenient that the silence will be the only debuff on you good Thing no stambuild runs bleeds, fracture, maim, defile, Poison injection depending on which weapons they use.

So my question is if you’re a mag char block casting with a s/b what’s the counterplay to this? A purgable defile? Gotta look at both sides of it. I’m a magblade so I don’t have much skin in this game but everyone acting like the sky is falling im trying to point out solutions and counterplay to this.

Counterplay for that is already in the game, you can drain their stam force them to stop blocking with cc like fear or use defiles which will make them either stop blockcasting heals or continue to do so with weaker heals. Really just slot reverb on your magblade and there you go counterplay. As to looking at both sides just so you know magplars dont blockcast bol for the fun of it its the only defense we have left. Not everyone can have cloak and shadow Image with multiple hots.

Ps typing from mobile right now so responses might be slow and miss some grammar or spelling stuff.

BRogueNZ · May 2019

Not enough templars using their class shield I guess

Sanguinor2 · May 2019

BRogueNZ wrote: »

Not enough templars using their class shield I guess

I wonder why. Could it be that it has gotten nerfed to oblivion because of qq? And it is a good contestant for weakest pvp shield next to igneous which gives secondary effects which sun shield doesnt give?
Also cant cast it silenced since it costs magicka but is a health based shield.

BRogueNZ · May 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BRogueNZ wrote: »

Not enough templars using their class shield I guess

I wonder why. Could it be that it has gotten nerfed to oblivion because of qq? And it is a good contestant for weakest pvp shield next to igneous which gives secondary effects which sun shield doesnt give?
Also cant cast it silenced since it costs magicka but is a health based shield.

Don't have to tell me how crap it is

we'll just need the regen to spam it 24-7 I guess

Urvoth · May 2019

Doesn't matter. The incap combo will take off your shields regardless.

itscompton · May 2019

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

this would force mag chars to be cautious of keeping shields up at all times as a form of counterplay to the silence

I think you mean it would let some mag classes counter the silence with shield uptime. Wouldn’t help magplar or magDK.

MagDK have a lot of resistances and most good ones I know are using harness for sustain. Surely they could survive 3s of stamblade burst. Magplar im not entirely familiar with.

Not trying to be snarky but if you aren't familiar with how an ability that silences will affect all the classes in regards to the counter play available to them then you probably aren't the best person to be proposing balance solutions.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · May 2019

itscompton wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

this would force mag chars to be cautious of keeping shields up at all times as a form of counterplay to the silence

I think you mean it would let some mag classes counter the silence with shield uptime. Wouldn’t help magplar or magDK.

MagDK have a lot of resistances and most good ones I know are using harness for sustain. Surely they could survive 3s of stamblade burst. Magplar im not entirely familiar with.

Not trying to be snarky but if you aren't familiar with how an ability that silences will affect all the classes in regards to the counter play available to them then you probably aren't the best person to be proposing balance solutions.

Do magplars not have access to shields / hots / self defensive buffs?

Sanguinor2 · May 2019

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Do magplars not have access to shields / hots / self defensive buffs?

They have access to one of the worst shields in the game which cannot be cast while silenced, access to an area bound very lackluster hot that heals every 2 seconds for a very small amount which cannot be cast while silenced and they have access to major ward and resolve like every other class which gets negated by major fracture and major breach which is conveniently free to cast with an over 20 seconds duration, said buffs can also not be cast while silenced. They also get minor protection from aedric spear abilities which cannot be cast while silenced.

GeorgeBlack · May 2019

casparian wrote: »

this would force mag chars to be cautious of keeping shields up at all times as a form of counterplay to the silence

I think you mean it would let some mag classes counter the silence with shield uptime. Wouldn’t help magplar or magDK.

This is a sorc world