Another noob stamina dps question

lukoi · May 2019

So, gotta say upfront that forum answers have for the most part been great in helping me learn the nuances of the game since I started this go round in early Feb of 19 (so almost three months ago).

I'm trying to optimize my stamina dps nightblade, and specifically where I am struggling to get comfortable is BG/no-CP based PvP. I'm pretty happy with how the character plays in CP PvP and PvE overall.

It's a Bosmer build and it's running Tzogvin as its DPS set (which I am pretty happy with), Slimecraw for the passive (especially due to the upcoming PTS changes coming to NB), and Spriggans for the sustain.

I feel like in no-CP I end up running dry on the green bar more than I like, and while I understand Bone Pirate is the best pure sustain option probably, I tend to run blue food in non-CP modes like BG (DCT in CP Cyro), because otherwise my max stam is lower than I like. I've combed through ESO sets.com and cannot find a better middle ground option between Sprig and BPT.

I've toyed with the idea if race changing the character to Orc, but the, I'm concerned sustained in non-CP will be even harder to deal with if I do.

Any help here appreciated. Maybe there is something I'm missing.

Sarting · May 2019

what food are you using?
My preference for stam builds - Orzorga's Tripe Trifle is my go-to.

I run out, but the fight would have to last a bit for me to run out of stam... most i can take is 3 vs 1, with the last person being a *** to fight due to low stam at that point...

lukoi · May 2019

For non-CP I am running blue food (which I believe does not trigger BPT's). Max HP/stam or one of the Orzongas.

I can make any of the Orzongad, top tier blue, DCT or the ATB gold stuff currently.

Sarting · May 2019

[deleted]

Narvuntien · May 2019

Are you using leeching strikes? (I think that's the stam morph) I know that I never slot it in Cryodil but always slot it in BGs.

Sarting · May 2019

lukoi wrote: »

or one of the Orzongas.

wth, that sucks.

lukoi · May 2019

Narvuntien wrote: »

Are you using leeching strikes? (I think that's the stam morph) I know that I never slot it in Cryodil but always slot it in BGs.

I definitely do.

Sarting wrote: »

lukoi wrote: »

or one of the Orzongas.

wth, that sucks.

Dont get what you are trying to day here Sarting. I can make all of them. You use them yourself. What are ya saying sucks?

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2019

Not specific advice for a stamblade, but generally speaking, you are going to run very different gear in CP and non CP (or at a minimum, different jewelry enchants). CP basically boosts your three primary concerns (defense, sustain, damage), often to the point where you can ignore a category in terms of gear selection for the most part. In your particular build, you have ignored two of them.

When you remove CP from the equation, all three areas drop, but so do your opponents. The most noticeable are certainly defense and sustain. Yes you do less damage, but it also generally takes less to kill your opponents. If I want to take a functional CP build and take it into BGs, I am generally going to be okay trading damage for sustain or defense.

Your build is essentially straight damage.

-Tzogvin is a weird crit focused set, that also takes time to build. I am not sure that particularly plays to the strengths of a bursty playstyle typically associated with stamblade. Crit is also generally not your best damage stat to focus on in PVP. 95% of players are running 7 pieces of impenetrable gear to avoid getting one shot by a critical hit.

-Slimecraw is also a crit and damage set. There are so many better options for a monster helm, especially in no CP.

-Spriggans, is simply not a sustain set, so not sure where you got that idea. In fact, it is probably the most basic damage set for a PVP stamina player. It gives no sustain to speak of. I am not surprised in the slightest that that build struggles with sustain in any PVP environment, let alone, in No CP.

If you want to play medium armor, I think the most obvious overall gear setup for really any stamina player is as follows: Bone Pirate (or battlefield acrobat) for sustain, Spriggans (for damage), and blood spawn as a monster set(sustain, defense and ulti-generation). Are their other combos that might work better for specific class, build, or playstyle? Of course. But if you had to pick one setup to play across the board for any stamina class, I dont think you will beat this. About every two or three 30-day campaigns, I make an effort to get a bunch of toons on the boards for transmute crystals. I have 2 gold sets of gear that I pass around, that always work. For magic, its bright throats and spinners, for stamina, its bone pirate and spriggans. They are essentially mirror images of each other.

When going from CP to no CP, about the only change I make with this setup is to swap jewelry enchants from damage (CP) to regen (non CP). Also, blue food is not my first choice for any PVP, especially non CP. You are almost certainly better off with Dubious (max stam, max health, stam regen) or even purple tri food. After all. your best defensive skill (Cloak) takes magic.

Sarting · May 2019

lukoi wrote: »

Dont get what you are trying to day here Sarting. I can make all of them. You use them yourself. What are ya saying sucks?

Sorry, i thought you said you couldn't use them...

lukoi · May 2019

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

-Tzogvin is a weird crit focused set, that also takes time to build. I am not sure that particularly plays to the strengths of a bursty playstyle typically associated with stamblade. Crit is also generally not your best damage stat to focus on in PVP. 95% of players are running 7 pieces of impenetrable gear to avoid getting one shot by a critical hit.

-Slimecraw is also a crit and damage set. There are so many better options for a monster helm, especially in no CP.

-Spriggans, is simply not a sustain set, so not sure where you got that idea. In fact, it is probably the most basic damage set for a PVP stamina player. It gives no sustain to speak of. I am not surprised in the slightest that that build struggles with sustain in any PVP environment, let alone, in No CP.

Thanks for the help OB, this is great stuff. Specific to Spriggans, I suppose the 2k stamina made me believe it qualified as a stamina-sustain set (of the weaker variety admittedly, but that's why I came here to the forum seeking info and advice), but again, I've only been going through the game for about three months now.

I get that Tzogvin isn't considered as bursty a set, but in BG's I'm 100% ok with that based on how the matches go. In Cyro, where engagements might be smaller, based on travel in between, I get why it might not be as optimal, but overall in BG's I've had zero problem getting it stacked and keeping it up for the most part. That being said, I'm definitely going to re-evaluate what I use for the second set.

Does BPirate work if the drink I'm using for buffs is DCT? Meaning it's not tied to the shorter duration potion/drinks people use? That'd be key for me in its favor tbh. The reason I ran blue-foods with max hp/stam vice DCT was because I was repeatedly advised to keep hp at around 20k and stam at 30k plus, and the lower maxes for DCT were problematic in that regard. But I see what you're saying, so I'll adjust my stuff accordingly and give that a try.

As for the slimecraw -- with the incoming nerf to minor bezerk, that's why I took that and you're saying that's less valuable than the sustain + defense. If I were to drop slimecraw tho, wouldn't it be more powerful to mix one blood spawn (for the aforementioned sustainability) with one mighty chudan since the latter has 46% as much defense for that one piece but it's always on, vice a 6% chance to trigger for only 6 seconds with bloodspawn's second piece?

I would think the full uptime would quickly outpace the RNG nature and short duration of the Bloodspawn piece (and admittedly, I'm glossing over the ultimate generation, but I've had zero issues there tbh....weaving in LA's has meant that I get it back quickly already in the frenetic fights of BG).

Anyway, thanks for the detailed feedback and be interested to hear your followups to these if you have any. Thanks all!

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2019

lukoi wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

-Tzogvin is a weird crit focused set, that also takes time to build. I am not sure that particularly plays to the strengths of a bursty playstyle typically associated with stamblade. Crit is also generally not your best damage stat to focus on in PVP. 95% of players are running 7 pieces of impenetrable gear to avoid getting one shot by a critical hit.

-Slimecraw is also a crit and damage set. There are so many better options for a monster helm, especially in no CP.

-Spriggans, is simply not a sustain set, so not sure where you got that idea. In fact, it is probably the most basic damage set for a PVP stamina player. It gives no sustain to speak of. I am not surprised in the slightest that that build struggles with sustain in any PVP environment, let alone, in No CP.

Thanks for the help OB, this is great stuff. Specific to Spriggans, I suppose the 2k stamina made me believe it qualified as a stamina-sustain set (of the weaker variety admittedly, but that's why I came here to the forum seeking info and advice), but again, I've only been going through the game for about three months now.

I get that Tzogvin isn't considered as bursty a set, but in BG's I'm 100% ok with that based on how the matches go. In Cyro, where engagements might be smaller, based on travel in between, I get why it might not be as optimal, but overall in BG's I've had zero problem getting it stacked and keeping it up for the most part. That being said, I'm definitely going to re-evaluate what I use for the second set.

Does BPirate work if the drink I'm using for buffs is DCT? Meaning it's not tied to the shorter duration potion/drinks people use? That'd be key for me in its favor tbh. The reason I ran blue-foods with max hp/stam vice DCT was because I was repeatedly advised to keep hp at around 20k and stam at 30k plus, and the lower maxes for DCT were problematic in that regard. But I see what you're saying, so I'll adjust my stuff accordingly and give that a try.

As for the slimecraw -- with the incoming nerf to minor bezerk, that's why I took that and you're saying that's less valuable than the sustain + defense. If I were to drop slimecraw tho, wouldn't it be more powerful to mix one blood spawn (for the aforementioned sustainability) with one mighty chudan since the latter has 46% as much defense for that one piece but it's always on, vice a 6% chance to trigger for only 6 seconds with bloodspawn's second piece?

I would think the full uptime would quickly outpace the RNG nature and short duration of the Bloodspawn piece (and admittedly, I'm glossing over the ultimate generation, but I've had zero issues there tbh....weaving in LA's has meant that I get it back quickly already in the frenetic fights of BG).

Anyway, thanks for the detailed feedback and be interested to hear your followups to these if you have any. Thanks all!

There is nothing wrong with still wearing a damage set, even in No CP. I would pick spriggans over Tzogvins, and call that pretty much a no brainier in PVP. I believe that you are reasonably able to keep stacks up, but I dont think it will give you the raw power against impen stackers that spriggans will.

As to bone pirate, yes, it works with DCT. That is really the whole point and why it is so strong. You will always have the buff active if you are using a drink. Food/Drink is one buff category, and potions are quite another. Dont confuse drinks (last an hour or more) and potions (lasts 45 seconds). You should always have a food/drink buff active (you cant have both food and drink), and you will find that most serious players pretty much drink potions on cool-down as well. Far and away the biggest expense in this game, once you get your gear sorted out, is potions. Blue food is great for raw damage, especially in PVE, but purple drinks and food are just generally more stat dense, and you can always compensate for stats in other ways if for example, say your health is too low. Another thing you can look to are tri-stat glyphs. Again, they are more stat dense than single enchants. Pretty much all my PVP builds run 7 tri-stats, but, I also dont need to worry about cost. I would suggest them on your head, chest and legs (big pieces) at a minimum.

You will be surprised how good the bloodspawn uptime is. It is only 6%, but its on any damage. You are often getting multiple damage ticks every second. You could absolutely go with one piece chudan, and one of something else. Domhihaus is very popular as it gives both magic and stam. You could also go with pirate skeleton to stack resistances. Personally, I dont think either beat 2 piece bloodspawn. Also, Don't underestimate ulti gen either.

As to the 2k Stamina and being a regen set... Yes, any thing that boosts stamina will arguably allow you to stay in a fight a bit longer, but regen sets really focus on regen and/or cost reduction. Max Stamina is better viewed as a damage statistic. Increasing weapon damage or increasing raw stamina will both make you hit harder. Roughly speaking for most skills, 1 pt of weapon damage is roughly equal to 10.5 pts of stamina in terms of tool tip value on a skill.

lukoi · May 2019

Thanks again @Oreyn_Bearclaw - extremely helpful.

I think I need to bust out a Bloodspawn set and at least test its uptime via combat metrics in the meantime, see if I get similar results!

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2019

lukoi wrote: »

Thanks again @Oreyn_Bearclaw - extremely helpful.

I think I need to bust out a Bloodspawn set and at least test its uptime via combat metrics in the meantime, see if I get similar results!

Combat metrics in PVP can act a bit funny. One thing to remember, you might be in combat for like 5 minutes and realize bloodspawn overall had a very poor uptime. That said, bloodspawn procs generally when you need it to, in other words, when you are under pressure. So while the uptime might be bad overall, it's likely good when you need it to be. If your goal is straight defense, there are better monster sets than bloodspawn, but bloodspawn gives you a bit of everything.

lukoi · May 2019

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

lukoi wrote: »

Thanks again @Oreyn_Bearclaw - extremely helpful.

I think I need to bust out a Bloodspawn set and at least test its uptime via combat metrics in the meantime, see if I get similar results!

Combat metrics in PVP can act a bit funny. One thing to remember, you might be in combat for like 5 minutes and realize bloodspawn overall had a very poor uptime. That said, bloodspawn procs generally when you need it to, in other words, when you are under pressure. So while the uptime might be bad overall, it's likely good when you need it to be. If your goal is straight defense, there are better monster sets than bloodspawn, but bloodspawn gives you a bit of everything.

Right. I'll be using it in BG initial, where the combat is fairly constant but bursty and I can check CM after a death for example, to keep it within reasonably fair windows to assess the value.