Zergs, ganking, bowtards... why the hate?

LeinadOrarogep · May 2019

I don't really get why all the hate towards specific tactics (either group or "solo") in PVP.
I mean... it's war. Everything goes.
Zerging is a valid tactic for swarming an enemy with numbers, bow is a valid weapon for whittling enemy forces from afar, and so on...
If one needs honorable, balanced matches, than it should look towards BG or Duels.

But war... war never changes.

barney2525 · May 2019

All true.

People hate to lose.

Zacuel · May 2019

I thee what you did tharr...

MattT1988 · May 2019

LeinadOrarogep wrote: »

I don't really get why all the hate towards specific tactics (either group or "solo") in PVP.
I mean... it's war. Everything goes.
Zerging is a valid tactic for swarming an enemy with numbers, bow is a valid weapon for whittling enemy forces from afar, and so on...
If one needs honorable, balanced matches, than it should look towards BG or Duels.

But war... war never changes.

It’s not a real war, it’s a game, it’s meant to be a bit of competitive fun and some people don’t like what they view as cheesy, no skill set ups. I couldn’t care less as I don’t PvP, but that’s the best answer I can give you.

gepe87 · May 2019

Not hate, but some players abuse with exploits and macros.
A legit bowtard and ganker its ok.

LeinadOrarogep · May 2019

MattT1988 wrote: »

It’s not a real war, it’s a game, it’s meant to be a bit of competitive fun and some people don’t like what they view as cheesy, no skill set ups. I couldn’t care less as I don’t PvP, but that’s the best answer I can give you.

That makes sense actually, and i can get behind this... somewhat.
But you would not expect this on, for example, the "Battlefield" series of games. They are a "war game", and Cyrodiil is the same - it's the "Alliance War".
So i don't go in expecting to be treated fairly, i go there precisely knowing that i will be zerged, ganked, cheesed in every possible way.

But i go there for the spirit of battle, the thrill of conquering keeps with a band of brothers, the sieges, the chaos, the pushes and fallbacks...

So i understand where you're coming from, but i think people should change a bit their expectations, if this is the case.

On a side note, try PVP: i initially hated and was afraid of it, but i grew to really love it!

Just prepare to die in million possible ways

ccfeeling · May 2019

Hate to lose , nerf those builds until they win .

Neoealth · May 2019

LeinadOrarogep wrote: »

I don't really get why all the hate towards specific tactics (either group or "solo") in PVP.
I mean... it's war. Everything goes.
Zerging is a valid tactic for swarming an enemy with numbers, bow is a valid weapon for whittling enemy forces from afar, and so on...
If one needs honorable, balanced matches, than it should look towards BG or Duels.

But war... war never changes.

I agree mostly, but I can also understand why bow spammers are hated so much, because sometimes you are dead before you even know it, and will never know who killed you. I think there is a bug with snipe where you won't even know you're being attacked until it's too late.

Casterial · May 2019

LeinadOrarogep wrote: »

I don't really get why all the hate towards specific tactics (either group or "solo") in PVP.
I mean... it's war. Everything goes.
Zerging is a valid tactic for swarming an enemy with numbers, bow is a valid weapon for whittling enemy forces from afar, and so on...
If one needs honorable, balanced matches, than it should look towards BG or Duels.

But war... war never changes.

I mean, why do 20+ need to chase 1 down?

For example AD owned Nikel and Roe. A zerg approaching Ash saw me, chased me ALL THE WAY TO ROE. 20+ AD.

LeinadOrarogep · May 2019

I've been killed without knowing who or what killed me, and zerged down when i'm alone so many times... it's par for the course, as far as i am concerned.

Besides, on another thread, one had a very valid point: they zerged you down because they thought you could put down a camp and let your buddies respawn.

Casterial · May 2019

LeinadOrarogep wrote: »

I've been killed without knowing who or what killed me, and zerged down when i'm alone so many times... it's par for the course, as far as i am concerned.

Besides, on another thread, one had a very valid point: they zerged you down because they thought you could put down a camp and let your buddies respawn.

But.......My AP

25k AP for that camp for baddies to respawn?!

MaxJrFTW · May 2019

Zergs, gankers, and bowtards, are more often than not awful players that would never beat you in a fair 1v1. It's annoying "losing" to people that are well below your skill level, because they either vastly outnumber you, or crutch on exploitable skills like snipe.

That's my opinion on the matter.

Casterial · May 2019

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Zergs, gankers, and bowtards, are more often than not awful players that would never beat you in a fair 1v1. It's annoying "losing" to people that are well below your skill level, because they either vastly outnumber you, or crutch on exploitable skills like snipe.

That's my opinion on the matter.

Its true, it sucks when someone that only knows how to use 1 skill gets a kill on you. Also not to mention when they tbag, its like "tbag if you deserved it..." Lol. Most zergers are "Skyrim Online" players and auto attack / use 1 AOE.

LeinadOrarogep · May 2019

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Zergs, gankers, and bowtards, are more often than not awful players that would never beat you in a fair 1v1. It's annoying "losing" to people that are well below your skill level, because they either vastly outnumber you, or crutch on exploitable skills like snipe.

That's my opinion on the matter.

I'm a bowtard, and i agree with you, i would never be able to beat even a mediocre PVP player.
But war is not 1v1... in war strength is in numbers and tactics.
And in war no one cares about being honorable.

Casterial · May 2019

LeinadOrarogep wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Zergs, gankers, and bowtards, are more often than not awful players that would never beat you in a fair 1v1. It's annoying "losing" to people that are well below your skill level, because they either vastly outnumber you, or crutch on exploitable skills like snipe.

That's my opinion on the matter.

I'm a bowtard, and i agree with you, i would never be able to beat even a mediocre PVP player.
But war is not 1v1... in war strength is in numbers and tactics.
And in war no one cares about being honorable.

See but "strength is in numbers" is a lie because when I gather ~5-6 players that know what to do we wipe 10-15++ players in a tower.

Jeremy · May 2019

LeinadOrarogep wrote: »

I don't really get why all the hate towards specific tactics (either group or "solo") in PVP.
I mean... it's war. Everything goes.
Zerging is a valid tactic for swarming an enemy with numbers, bow is a valid weapon for whittling enemy forces from afar, and so on...
If one needs honorable, balanced matches, than it should look towards BG or Duels.

But war... war never changes.

But it's not really "war".

It's a video game.

I can understand massing numbers to take a keep. But when you have massive zergs chasing down lone players - especially if they are just trying to do quests - it's crosses the line and becomes excessive in my opinion.

Though I have to say I was actually pleasantly surprised yesterday in Cyrodil when the Covenant - having dominated the entire map under the leadership of some person named "Fengrush"(who is supposedly our mortal enemy it seems) allowed me to quest unmolested. So I guess karma does eventually come around, even the good kind.

LeinadOrarogep · May 2019

"Strength in numbers" does not mean that strength is only in numbers. Skill is a factor too, it's just another factor and not the only one.

Of course 5 good players will win over 15 bad ones.
By a similar token, though, 15 bad players will win over 1 good one.

Casterial · May 2019

LeinadOrarogep wrote: »

"Strength in numbers" does not mean that strength is only in numbers. Skill is a factor too, it's just another factor and not the only one.

Of course 5 good players will win over 15 bad ones.
By a similar token, though, 15 bad players will win over 1 good one.

True. Thankfully ZOS has worked to make sure 1 player can't beat 10+ now days!

Jeremy wrote: »

Though I have to say I was actually pleasantly surprised yesterday in Cyrodil when the Covenant - having dominated the entire map under the leadership of some person named "Fengrush"(who is supposedly our mortal enemy it seems) allowed me to quest unmolested. So I guess karma does eventually come around, even the good kind.

Majority of the people who watch his stream are PVE junkies I think, so most just watch to enjoy PVE, also most have respect for questers.

zaria · May 2019

barney2525 wrote: »

All true.

People hate to lose.

Nerf everything who has killed me in PvP.
Also give me some cool abilities, replace the lame clanfear with an dragon like the ones roaming in Elsweir

Casterial · May 2019

zaria wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

All true.

People hate to lose.

Nerf everything who has killed me in PvP.
Also give me some cool abilities, replace the lame clanfear with an dragon like the ones roaming in Elsweir

Take Radiant, give me Blinding Flashes back

Qbiken · May 2019

Casterial wrote: »

LeinadOrarogep wrote: »

"Strength in numbers" does not mean that strength is only in numbers. Skill is a factor too, it's just another factor and not the only one.

Of course 5 good players will win over 15 bad ones.
By a similar token, though, 15 bad players will win over 1 good one.

True. Thankfully ZOS has worked to make sure 1 player can't beat 10+ now days!

I tend to disagree

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MattT1988 · May 2019

LeinadOrarogep wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

It’s not a real war, it’s a game, it’s meant to be a bit of competitive fun and some people don’t like what they view as cheesy, no skill set ups. I couldn’t care less as I don’t PvP, but that’s the best answer I can give you.

That makes sense actually, and i can get behind this... somewhat.
But you would not expect this on, for example, the "Battlefield" series of games. They are a "war game", and Cyrodiil is the same - it's the "Alliance War".
So i don't go in expecting to be treated fairly, i go there precisely knowing that i will be zerged, ganked, cheesed in every possible way.

But i go there for the spirit of battle, the thrill of conquering keeps with a band of brothers, the sieges, the chaos, the pushes and fallbacks...

So i understand where you're coming from, but i think people should change a bit their expectations, if this is the case.

On a side note, try PVP: i initially hated and was afraid of it, but i grew to really love it! Just prepare to die in million possible ways

I’m Australian, so even if there was the slightest chance I’d be willing to go back in there, I wouldn’t as my game crashes and lags out the moment 3 or 4 enemies pop up on the screen.
Plus I hate Zerging and ganking. I don’t want to play those play styles and I don’t want to play with or against anyone who does, seeing as those two are two of the most common play styles that you see there, I ain’t interested. So don’t tell me to try PvP trying to paint it as this cool place that will grow on me. It won’t, so don’t give me that spiel.

You go there for the ‘thrill’ or ‘the feeling’ or whatever. Great, whatever floats your boat. But it’s still just a game, not a real war. So your always going to have people who are treating it like as a fun competitive game instead of a real war as some people seem too.

LeinadOrarogep wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Zergs, gankers, and bowtards, are more often than not awful players that would never beat you in a fair 1v1. It's annoying "losing" to people that are well below your skill level, because they either vastly outnumber you, or crutch on exploitable skills like snipe.

That's my opinion on the matter.

I'm a bowtard, and i agree with you, i would never be able to beat even a mediocre PVP player.
But war is not 1v1... in war strength is in numbers and tactics.
And in war no one cares about being honorable.

Again, it’s not a war, it’s a game. A lot of people don’t treat it like a war because it isn’t a war.

Browiseth · May 2019

LeinadOrarogep wrote: »

I mean... it's war. Everything goes.

it's a video game
dunno if you noticed

LeinadOrarogep · May 2019

I know it's not a real war, of course i know it's a game.

What i wanted to say is that i personally would not expect to play ARMA 2 and expect to fight in honorable battles: i would expect to be sniped and overrun by superior numbers, and i would expect the result of the game to depend not only on a single player's skill, but also on group number and tactics.

I personally have the same expectations for Cyrodiil PVP.

That's what i meant to say with "it's war", sorry for the confusion.

LeinadOrarogep · May 2019

MattT1988 wrote: »

I’m Australian, so even if there was the slightest chance I’d be willing to go back in there, I wouldn’t as my game crashes and lags out the moment 3 or 4 enemies pop up on the screen.
Plus I hate Zerging and ganking. I don’t want to play those play styles and I don’t want to play with or against anyone who does, seeing as those two are two of the most common play styles that you see there, I ain’t interested. So don’t tell me to try PvP trying to paint it as this cool place that will grow on me. It won’t, so don’t give me that spiel.

You go there for the ‘thrill’ or ‘the feeling’ or whatever. Great, whatever floats your boat. But it’s still just a game, not a real war. So your always going to have people who are treating it like as a fun competitive game instead of a real war as some people seem too.

I'm sorry if it came as patronizing, i didn't mean to: i thought you never tried PVP, and just suggested you might find it fun.
I understand why you don't like it, and sorry again if i came along as rude!

technohic · May 2019

The "its war" comments crack me up. Must still be wet behind the ears because this is a video game. Far from war. The people who say it probably would struggle to be in a tough neighborhood let alone a war.

LeinadOrarogep · May 2019

technohic wrote: »

The "its war" comments crack me up. Must still be wet behind the ears because this is a video game. Far from war. The people who say it probably would struggle to be in a tough neighborhood let alone a war.

Yes, i clarified my "it's war" expression above.

Browiseth · May 2019

technohic wrote: »

The "its war" comments crack me up. Must still be wet behind the ears because this is a video game. Far from war. The people who say it probably would struggle to be in a tough neighborhood let alone a war.

i'm worried it comes from a place of being unable to recognize the disconnect between the game and reality. remember in the early 2000s when every news station liked to pretend people were unable to realise video games aren't like real life and we always laughed?

comments like "it's just like a real war get over it" make me wonder if FOX news was right all along.

edit: not specifically poking at you OP. i see the "well in real life-" excuse/defense pop up a lot in these forums, so it's more directed at the wider issue.

Exalted_Goose · May 2019

It's annoying because it feels like you're cheated out of a fair fight. Getting zerg'ed is frustrating because - unless you're a good Nightblade who can tactfully cloak away, or a capable mSorc who can use Streak well - there's ultimately nothing you can do other than run from the coming horde. Getting ganked feels cheap because you didn't even know they were there, thus had no way of fighting back; the same goes for the guy spamming Snipe from stealth atop keep walls, or whose arrows all hit at once and delete you from existence.

I have no problem with any play-style, no matter how, "cheap", it may seem. Where the hate often comes from is a feeling that you were cheated out of a fair fight, and had no real way of levelling the playing field.

kerthas · May 2019

Zerg to take/defend objectifs on the map is something normal. Thats how zenimax make the pvp.
But like it had been said above, zerg 1-2 player who are just looking for some good fight isn't something you can be really proud of.

Problem is most of the player in cyrodil doesn't learn at all. They don't even try. So when they meet some experimented player they don't come except if there is a zerg with them. And if the experimented player is alone they don't even think to not zerg him.
Only the new player will come. And honestly even if they die really fast i respect them a lot more than people standing on the wall just watching him die.

There is people who are looking for zerg, but most of the time they are in a group of 4-5. I'm one of them. And if we die because of it its fine, because thats what we want. Thats the only exception.

And no the strengh isn't with number. You have the strengh mainly with your brain, which means improve your skills, and using the field in your advantage. The numbers is just the easy way.

And don't tell me zerg have an actually tactics in mind. No god damn way. Just look at it in a an objective way.
The only zerg who have tactics are organized raid. Thats it.

LeinadOrarogep · May 2019

kerthas wrote: »

And no the strengh isn't with number. You have the strengh mainly with your brain, which means improve your skills, and using the field in your advantage. The numbers is just the easy way.

Exactly, you're right, this is what i want to say!
Using superior numbers is an easy way to victory, so why should i not use it? Same goes for bow and ganking.
My objective is to win the campaign, not to improve my skills or become a better player. So if something makes me win the campaign easier, i will gladly use it.