Feeling baffled.

Morgha_Kul · May 2019

Lately I've been leveling my Bosmer Warden. I've noticed his damage output is vastly superior to my Breton Templar, so I thought I'd copy the Warden's basic build over to the Templar to improve his overall damage.

They now have the same amount of Stamina (approximately). They have their CP allocated identically. They're using the same weapon (bow), with the same advantages. The Templar has more of the passives, so his critical rating is actually superior to the Warden's.

Despite being built pretty well identically, the Bosmer Warden is still doing TWICE the damage the Templar does... and I can't fathom why. The "rotation" if you can call it that is simply Endless Hail and Heavy attacks. A heavy attack critical hit does 12k for the Warden, only 6k for the Templar. Endless Hail is hitting targets for around 1200 for the Warden, around 600 for the Templar.

For the life of me, I can't figure out WHY.

Any thoughts?

Morgul667 · May 2019

Twice is a pretty high difference

Stupid question but Are the weapons traits and quality the same?

Morgha_Kul · May 2019

Morgul667 wrote: »

Twice is a pretty high difference

Stupid question but Are the weapons traits and quality the same?

Pretty close. They're different levels, so the Templar would have the advantage, being higher level.

Ya, twice seems awfully high, which is why I'm baffled. I expected a little variation, but this is odd.

russelmmendoza · May 2019

Warden and necromancer are op class.

Pve and pvp they will be op.

Siohwenoeht · May 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Twice is a pretty high difference

Stupid question but Are the weapons traits and quality the same?

Pretty close. They're different levels, so the Templar would have the advantage, being higher level.

Ya, twice seems awfully high, which is why I'm baffled. I expected a little variation, but this is odd.

How far apart in levels are they? The scaling system essentially causes you to lose power as you level, assuming that you make it up with new gear, passives etc. That's why for new players it's quite a shock to go from 49 to 50, then 50 to cp160. They lose that last bit of scaling from being sub 50.

Mitaka211 · May 2019

Dude , i played stamplar since the start. Recently i made a magsorc , and stamina warden. It's shocking to me too how much more powerful they feel compared to my templar. Especially the magsorc, sry but his damage is absolutely gross , compared to the stamina classes i have tried. Every time i see a magsorc explaining in detail how weak his class is, like dude get over yourself , try another class and say the same thing again....

BNOC · May 2019

Templar is literally bottom of the barrel when you're comparing two equally skilled players and or a like for like build, our damage just doesn't stack up.

Metafae · May 2019

Could you post a combat metrics log of each? Might help us work out where the difference is.

Donny_Vito · May 2019

Could you post a combat metrics log of each?

Every time I see someone say this I get a small tear in my eye. We need this on console!

vesselwiththepestle · May 2019

Do you use the same gear sets on both characters?

Which Mundus Stones do you use? Just as an example, if your using Lover on the Warden and Steed on the Templar this would be quite a difference dps-wise.

You are really only using Endless Hail and Heavy Attacks? You are not using the Shalks on Warden, which apply Major Fracture?

Morgha_Kul · May 2019

The sets they use are similar, but not identical. I usually use one defensive and one offensive set for each. In each case it's Stamina on one set and health on the other. For weapons, I usually use something that has a critical bonus as the 2 part bonus (since I won't get more than that, having 5 in each of the armours).

Both use the critical mundus... Thief, I think it is?

A difference is that the Warden uses medium armour, while the Templar is in heavy. That's about the only difference though.

I'll see about posting some metrics, and I believe I'll try stripping them down to no armour and using a basic bow with no stat bonuses, to see if it's something in the gear.

ShadowKyuubi · May 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

The sets they use are similar, but not identical. I usually use one defensive and one offensive set for each. In each case it's Stamina on one set and health on the other. For weapons, I usually use something that has a critical bonus as the 2 part bonus (since I won't get more than that, having 5 in each of the armours).

Both use the critical mundus... Thief, I think it is?

A difference is that the Warden uses medium armour, while the Templar is in heavy. That's about the only difference though.

I'll see about posting some metrics, and I believe I'll try stripping them down to no armour and using a basic bow with no stat bonuses, to see if it's something in the gear.

That difference in Heavy and Medium armor is huge. Medium armor increase your weapon critical and weapon damage. Combine that with the fact that Bosmer's are more suited for stamina classes. These two reasons are more than enough to cause such a large disparity between damage. Use medium armor on your Templar and you will see a large increase damage.

Morgha_Kul · May 2019

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

The sets they use are similar, but not identical. I usually use one defensive and one offensive set for each. In each case it's Stamina on one set and health on the other. For weapons, I usually use something that has a critical bonus as the 2 part bonus (since I won't get more than that, having 5 in each of the armours).

Both use the critical mundus... Thief, I think it is?

A difference is that the Warden uses medium armour, while the Templar is in heavy. That's about the only difference though.

I'll see about posting some metrics, and I believe I'll try stripping them down to no armour and using a basic bow with no stat bonuses, to see if it's something in the gear.

That difference in Heavy and Medium armor is huge. Medium armor increase your weapon critical and weapon damage. Combine that with the fact that Bosmer's are more suited for stamina classes. These two reasons are more than enough to cause such a large disparity between damage. Use medium armor on your Templar and you will see a large increase damage.

I would agree, but the Bosmer is only L20, and doesn't have many of the medium armour passives as yet.
I just got in from work, so I'll run a couple of tests and see what happens. Stay tuned!

Waffennacht · May 2019

Level scaling + medium armor vs heavy is the reasons.

Surprised it's only twice tbh.

SirAndy · May 2019

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

How far apart in levels are they? The scaling system essentially causes you to lose power as you level, assuming that you make it up with new gear, passives etc. That's why for new players it's quite a shock to go from 49 to 50, then 50 to cp160. They lose that last bit of scaling from being sub 50.

Your low level character is scaled better than your higher level character.

Until you get to level 50 (More accurately CP160) comparing stats is somewhat pointless ...

Morgha_Kul · May 2019

Ok!

Sent the two characters out into Malabal Tor with ONLY a normal, unenchanted bow equipped. No armour, no jewelry, nothing.
That means they're identically equipped, and have exactly the same CP arrangement. They have both split their characteristic points the same way (ie. a small amount in health, the rest in stamina. The proportions are about the same). The only differences are race and level.

The templar is level 50 (plus CP), and the warden is L15 (not 20, my mistake, but has spent his CP).

The templar's basic heavy attack does about 4000 damage per shot (with some variation). A critical hit will do around 6000.
The warden's basic heavy attack does around 7000 damage per shot. A critical hit does around 11000.

So, I'm still baffled.

SirAndy · May 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Ok!
Sent the two characters out into Malabal Tor with ONLY a normal, unenchanted bow equipped. No armour, no jewelry, nothing.
That means they're identically equipped, and have exactly the same CP arrangement. They have both split their characteristic points the same way (ie. a small amount in health, the rest in stamina. The proportions are about the same). The only differences are race and level.
The templar is level 50 (plus CP), and the warden is L15 (not 20, my mistake, but has spent his CP).
The templar's basic heavy attack does about 4000 damage per shot (with some variation). A critical hit will do around 6000.
The warden's basic heavy attack does around 7000 damage per shot. A critical hit does around 11000.
So, I'm still baffled.

You shouldn't be ...

At level 15 your warden gets a *huge* level scaling bonus that will diminish and become less with each new level until you hit 50 at which point there is no more scaling.

Morgha_Kul · May 2019

That's what I figured, but I didn't think it would be so large a difference.

Siohwenoeht · May 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

That's what I figured, but I didn't think it would be so large a difference.

I think part of why it's that way is to get new players into group content faster. When that dungeon unlocks at x level the devs wanted to make sure a toon at that level could complete it.

Waffennacht · May 2019

Dungeons use to scale to weakest member in group, then didn't scale, (people taking advantage of the system) areas use to be certain levels vr11 etc

This is the end result of all the changes prior

Siohwenoeht · May 2019

Waffennacht wrote: »

Dungeons use to scale to weakest member in group, then didn't scale, (people taking advantage of the system) areas use to be certain levels vr11 etc

This is the end result of all the changes prior

I remember what a pita that was before 1t. Trying to help a lowbie out meant 0 xp for your time, or that you couldn't help at all because you had already completed whatever quest they were on and a lot more was instanced than is currently.

Plus Doshia was a pain.

StarOfElyon · May 2019

I main a magplar and everything feels more powerful and durable than me. Lol

Morgul667 · May 2019

Ok so to sum it up

Different levels
Different gear
Different armor

And you are surprised the result is different?
That s normal

Morgha_Kul · May 2019

Morgul667 wrote: »

Ok so to sum it up

Different levels
Different gear
Different armor

And you are surprised the result is different?
That s normal

Did you read my last posts? I took off all the gear and armour, they were totally unequipped except for a regular, untraited, unenchanted bow... and the difference was that the lower level character did twice as much damage with the same attack (ie. heavy bow shot).

So, yeah. I was surprised. I would have expected the higher level character to do more damage, what with his higher stats and skills. I didn't think the scaling effect would be so drastic.

Waffennacht · May 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Ok so to sum it up

Different levels
Different gear
Different armor

And you are surprised the result is different?
That s normal

Did you read my last posts? I took off all the gear and armour, they were totally unequipped except for a regular, untraited, unenchanted bow... and the difference was that the lower level character did twice as much damage with the same attack (ie. heavy bow shot).

So, yeah. I was surprised. I would have expected the higher level character to do more damage, what with his higher stats and skills. I didn't think the scaling effect would be so drastic.

That's a big reason why players struggle so much. There's no real warning that suddenly they'll lose so much power.

It also teaches the wrong things. Many players get the impression they're doing the right things and boom reality check - play as you want has serious limitations