Making Healers Relevant in Dungeons Again

mairwen85 · May 2019

The purpose of this thread is to provide community feedback and ideas for how dungeons (present and future) can be updated or designed to make healers more relevant to the content (as the title suggests). Seeing as devs are regularly revisiting dungeons and weakening bosses, reducing adds, etc (not addressing the core issue of dungeon difficulty in my view, but it is what it is), I don't see why retro fits can't be introduced.

The main gripe you often hear is centred around 'One-shots'. I'm not arguing for the total removal of all One-shot mechanics; they add difficulty, they can enforce mechanics, and make for reactive strategy; but the sheer volume and number of sources are a major issue in current dungeon design -- and seeing as they often exceed the amount heal-able, more dps is preferred in many cases in order to progress faster. A rethink would be to instead of apply x damage, apply a 'wounding' debuff on target that does x/y over time (e.g. instead of single hit of 45K, 12Kps over 4 seconds). This makes a healer's role more necessary as that de-buff becomes purge-able(?), and the damage recoverable over time, despite the actual effect still doing decent enough damage to retain difficulty.

Self heals are in a good place in terms of cost vs effect, and dps or tanks slotting heals do little to outweigh the applicable power of a dedicated healer (considering additional effects and buffs).

Any other thoughts?

BNOC · May 2019

Self heals are insanely strong, that's why healers are worthless in this kind of content.

Maybe they just need a third difficulty tier, it could even be as simple as %hp, %damage and %mitigation increases, then chuck a flat healing debuff in there to a point where DD's can't sustain on self heals alone.

Dedicated healer heals would also be down but part of the difficulty I guess.

Also, you'd probs just get dds heal stacking each other.

mairwen85 · May 2019

BNOC wrote: »

Self heals are insanely strong, that's why healers are worthless in this kind of content.

Maybe they just need a third difficulty tier, it could even be as simple as %hp, %damage and %mitigation increases, then chuck a flat healing debuff in there to a point where DD's can't sustain on self heals alone.

Dedicated healer heals would also be down but part of the difficulty I guess.

Also, you'd probs just get dds heal stacking each other.

True but if I'm healing myself, or another, I'm wasting resource and not doing damage. Every DD heal is less damage done. Heal stacking would be sharing the healer role amongst individuals who are taking high damage consistently over a short period of time puts strain on the group -- making it more obvious that a dedicated healer would be more beneficial (in my view anyway).

I can see your point -- perhaps you'd suggest an increase in cost of self-heals? Or that heals rely more on CP stars like Blessed in order to have viable power (which would gimp most dps)... That said, your idea of the 'wounding' debuff also reducing healing taken or healing done is an interesting thought.

daemonios · May 2019

More damage over time (bleeds, poison, etc) requiring constant healing might help healers stay relevant, but you might need to mess with self-heals too, which would mess with PvP...

Another issue is that good DDs do 10-20x the damage of bad DDs. The interval is way too broad and makes it that much harder to design fights where you can't skip mechanics by burning, but that don't exclude a large part or even the majority of the player base. ZOS screwed the pooch where it comes to either teaching new/casual players how to do decent DPS or restricting how much more DPS a good player is able to do. Soft caps did this to some extent at the very start, but classes were seriously unbalanced back then.

Jeremy · May 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

The purpose of this thread is to provide community feedback and ideas for how dungeons (present and future) can be updated or designed to make healers more relevant to the content (as the title suggests). Seeing as devs are regularly revisiting dungeons and weakening bosses, reducing adds, etc (not addressing the core issue of dungeon difficulty in my view, but it is what it is), I don't see why retro fits can't be introduced.

The main gripe you often hear is centred around 'One-shots'. I'm not arguing for the total removal of all One-shot mechanics; they add difficulty, they can enforce mechanics, and make for reactive strategy; but the sheer volume and number of sources are a major issue in current dungeon design -- and seeing as they often exceed the amount heal-able, more dps is preferred in many cases in order to progress faster. A rethink would be to instead of apply x damage, apply a 'wounding' debuff on target that does x/y over time (e.g. instead of single hit of 45K, 12Kps over 4 seconds). This makes a healer's role more necessary as that buff becomes purge-able(?), and the damage recoverable over time, despite the actual effect still doing decent enough damage to retain difficulty.

Self heals are in a good place in terms of cost vs effect, and dps or tanks slotting heals do little to outweigh the applicable power of a dedicated healer (considering additional effects and buffs).

Any other thoughts?

Frankly I think they should just remove "one shots" all together. They're stupid - and just makes a dungeon more annoying. It's also probably why so many people don't want to buy their DLC dungeons.

Challenge is only good so long as it makes the game more fun. If it's to the point that it makes the game more frustrating and annoying, then it's doing more harm than good.

mairwen85 · May 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

The purpose of this thread is to provide community feedback and ideas for how dungeons (present and future) can be updated or designed to make healers more relevant to the content (as the title suggests). Seeing as devs are regularly revisiting dungeons and weakening bosses, reducing adds, etc (not addressing the core issue of dungeon difficulty in my view, but it is what it is), I don't see why retro fits can't be introduced.

The main gripe you often hear is centred around 'One-shots'. I'm not arguing for the total removal of all One-shot mechanics; they add difficulty, they can enforce mechanics, and make for reactive strategy; but the sheer volume and number of sources are a major issue in current dungeon design -- and seeing as they often exceed the amount heal-able, more dps is preferred in many cases in order to progress faster. A rethink would be to instead of apply x damage, apply a 'wounding' debuff on target that does x/y over time (e.g. instead of single hit of 45K, 12Kps over 4 seconds). This makes a healer's role more necessary as that buff becomes purge-able(?), and the damage recoverable over time, despite the actual effect still doing decent enough damage to retain difficulty.

Self heals are in a good place in terms of cost vs effect, and dps or tanks slotting heals do little to outweigh the applicable power of a dedicated healer (considering additional effects and buffs).

Any other thoughts?

Frankly I think they should just remove "one shots" all together. They're stupid - and just makes a dungeon more annoying. It's also probably why so many people don't want to buy their DLC dungeons.

Challenge is only good so long as it makes the game more fun. If it's to the point that it makes the game more frustrating and annoying, then it's doing more harm than good.

So how would you provide that challenge in a way which makes healers relevant, and doesn't gimp the dungeon too hard.

Iskiab · May 2019

Healers are relevant, I don’t see the point of the thread. I tried a group with one tank and 3 dps, it was horrible with lots of deaths and low dps.

3 dps groups are fine because there are less healers so it doesn’t bother me, but thinking it’s optimal is ridiculous.

The game has been setup to play how you want so 3 dps groups are possible of course. The tank can pump out healing and the dps can self heal, but healers can dps as well. If running a healer isn’t working for you then the healer must be overhealing like crazy and doing nothing else.

Jeremy · May 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

The purpose of this thread is to provide community feedback and ideas for how dungeons (present and future) can be updated or designed to make healers more relevant to the content (as the title suggests). Seeing as devs are regularly revisiting dungeons and weakening bosses, reducing adds, etc (not addressing the core issue of dungeon difficulty in my view, but it is what it is), I don't see why retro fits can't be introduced.

The main gripe you often hear is centred around 'One-shots'. I'm not arguing for the total removal of all One-shot mechanics; they add difficulty, they can enforce mechanics, and make for reactive strategy; but the sheer volume and number of sources are a major issue in current dungeon design -- and seeing as they often exceed the amount heal-able, more dps is preferred in many cases in order to progress faster. A rethink would be to instead of apply x damage, apply a 'wounding' debuff on target that does x/y over time (e.g. instead of single hit of 45K, 12Kps over 4 seconds). This makes a healer's role more necessary as that buff becomes purge-able(?), and the damage recoverable over time, despite the actual effect still doing decent enough damage to retain difficulty.

Self heals are in a good place in terms of cost vs effect, and dps or tanks slotting heals do little to outweigh the applicable power of a dedicated healer (considering additional effects and buffs).

Any other thoughts?

Frankly I think they should just remove "one shots" all together. They're stupid - and just makes a dungeon more annoying. It's also probably why so many people don't want to buy their DLC dungeons.

Challenge is only good so long as it makes the game more fun. If it's to the point that it makes the game more frustrating and annoying, then it's doing more harm than good.

So how would you provide that challenge in a way which makes healers relevant, and doesn't gimp the dungeon too hard.

Just make the damage and health of the enemies threatening - but not to the point it one shots people. That way healers can actually heal and keep people alive.

mobicera · May 2019

I would bring any of the good healers I know to any dungeon in the game and their buffs, debuffs and orbs/shards are very relevant. Healing in this games dungeons is just more about support than actual healing and this is ok.

frozzzen101 · May 2019

New dungeons should be 6 man content. Instead of 1/2/1 composition you'd have 1/4/1 composition. That's how you'd make healers more relevant. Your major courage, prayer, potl, aether... all offensive buffs and debuffs would then empower 4 dds instead of two and that's major value in amount of support you are providing. Also given overabundance of dds in game, this would lead to faster queues etc. And switching from 4 to 5 dds, while possible it wouldn't amount to much dps increase relative to how much extra you get from going from 2 to 3 dds because of amount of support you get from good healer.

Other than that there are mechanics that encourage healers. Good example is execute phase of Ruins of Mazzatun where you have constant pulsing damage that isn't trivial to self heal while you have to deal with other mechanics as dd like totems or Stoneshapers. You'd just have to be a bit more creative with mechanics. Oneshots are good and necessary, but not end all be all.

Iskiab · May 2019

mobicera wrote: »

I would bring any of the good healers I know to any dungeon in the game and their buffs, debuffs and orbs/shards are very relevant. Healing in this games dungeons is just more about support than actual healing and this is ok.

Yea, support and damage in easy content. I focus more on damage the easier the content. I’m regularly 1/3 of the group’s dps as a healer on trash and break 10k ST on bosses while doing buffs and debuffs. A group of 4 is small and as a healer you have to adapt to the environment.

Matthew_Galvanus · May 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

Self heals are insanely strong, that's why healers are worthless in this kind of content.

Maybe they just need a third difficulty tier, it could even be as simple as %hp, %damage and %mitigation increases, then chuck a flat healing debuff in there to a point where DD's can't sustain on self heals alone.

Dedicated healer heals would also be down but part of the difficulty I guess.

Also, you'd probs just get dds heal stacking each other.

True but if I'm healing myself, or another, I'm wasting resource and not doing damage. Every DD heal is less damage done. Heal stacking would be sharing the healer role amongst individuals who are taking high damage consistently over a short period of time puts strain on the group -- making it more obvious that a dedicated healer would be more beneficial (in my view anyway).

I can see your point -- perhaps you'd suggest an increase in cost of self-heals? Or that heals rely more on CP stars like Blessed in order to have viable power (which would gimp most dps)... That said, your idea of the 'wounding' debuff also reducing healing taken or healing done is an interesting thought.

unless you're a Sorcerer, we have power surge which provides major sorcery and we heal from crits while it is active, so resources well spent.

but honestly the only way healers become relevant again is when ZoS stops with all the one shot mechanics.

zaria · May 2019

The wraitstone dungeons demanded plenty of healing, this was probably intended.

No need for healers is probably in part because of CP as CP give lots of migration.
Also because so many runs vMA level builds rather than glass cannons.

MakeMeUhSamich · May 2019

Fang Lair, hard mode. Healers need not apply since everything is an insta-gib.

One shots are silly.

mairwen85 · May 2019

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

Self heals are insanely strong, that's why healers are worthless in this kind of content.

Maybe they just need a third difficulty tier, it could even be as simple as %hp, %damage and %mitigation increases, then chuck a flat healing debuff in there to a point where DD's can't sustain on self heals alone.

Dedicated healer heals would also be down but part of the difficulty I guess.

Also, you'd probs just get dds heal stacking each other.

True but if I'm healing myself, or another, I'm wasting resource and not doing damage. Every DD heal is less damage done. Heal stacking would be sharing the healer role amongst individuals who are taking high damage consistently over a short period of time puts strain on the group -- making it more obvious that a dedicated healer would be more beneficial (in my view anyway).

I can see your point -- perhaps you'd suggest an increase in cost of self-heals? Or that heals rely more on CP stars like Blessed in order to have viable power (which would gimp most dps)... That said, your idea of the 'wounding' debuff also reducing healing taken or healing done is an interesting thought.

unless you're a Sorcerer, we have power surge which provides major sorcery and we heal from crits while it is active, so resources well spent.

but honestly the only way healers become relevant again is when ZoS stops with all the one shot mechanics.

I agree, which is why it's the main focus of my opening post.

Power surge is a good example of a good self heal, it has restrictions (i.e. conditioned to crit) and is applicable only to the caster.

idk · May 2019

BNOC wrote: »

Self heals are insanely strong, that's why healers are worthless in this kind of content.

This only tells a small part of the story and alone is very inaccurate is suggesting it is the problem.

ESO requires us to actively mitigate and avoid damage more than most MMORPs. Especially those like WoW and FF where when a dps dies it is likely the healers fault. In ESO when a dps dies it is likely their own fault.

We must block, dodge, and shield damage and much of that damage comes faster than most healers can mitigate. This is the base design of the game and absolutely required by any good dps (or tank or healer).

So to change this you must change the mechanics of the base game which could include unavoidable damage like occurs in other MMORPGs. Ignore this aspect of the game and the conversation is woefully incomplete and pretty pointless.

MaleAmazon · May 2019

Old dungeons: Add another difficulty tier.

New dungeons: Add mechanics. Guess they already did with Depths of Malatar (the Tharayya vs ghost ex husband fight, idk for sure since i only did it on normal and we half skipped that mechanic).

I find healers kind of relevant already though, in pvp and trials.

One-shots are tank mechanics or group mechanics and should be insta-deaths. They are well advertised, usually.

Varana · May 2019

The problem with "nerf self-heals" is that those are often the same skills that a healer is using to heal. Things like Surge and Resto staff aside - as long as your class skill is used by a healer, it can also be slotted by a DD or tank. And tanks need some form of self-heal.
So unless you severely restrict skills, strictly dividing them up into those that only heal the caster, or only heal other people (which would gut healers considerably, defeating the purpose of this exercise), self-heals will always be rather strong. And even then, as long as you provide a burst self-heal for the tank or solo players, no-one prevents DDs from slotting it themselves, which means it's not even a solution.

IMHO, self-heals are not too strong, though. A DD healing is not doing damage, and neither is she sending resources. In more advanced content, that is a considerable drawback.
You see those 3-DD-runs mostly in easier content. And then, it's an issue of people out-levelling older content, or just having become better at the game. Less one-shots and more DoTs or frequent but smaller amounts of damage is a good way forward.

I don't think that drastic measures or re-designs are needed.

Kaspar · May 2019

Problem I'm experiencing is the need to spam heal members of the group (especially bad when it is the tank) thus burning through resources and making it difficult to watch for the attacks. They lose most health from an attack and get a full heal only to 1 second later require another heal (spam spam spam... dead). I don't even have time to swap bars to cast any resource or damage support and they require another heal before I can complete a full heavy attack to restore some majikz.

It's as though people don't invest any points or gear traits/enchants into addtional health and/or resistances. Mostly a problem in the harder DLC's. Personally for the more difficult boss fights I switch gear to resistant/health/restore boosting gear.

mairwen85 · May 2019

Varana wrote: »

The problem with "nerf self-heals" is that those are often the same skills that a healer is using to heal. Things like Surge and Resto staff aside - as long as your class skill is used by a healer, it can also be slotted by a DD or tank. And tanks need some form of self-heal.
So unless you severely restrict skills, strictly dividing them up into those that only heal the caster, or only heal other people (which would gut healers considerably, defeating the purpose of this exercise), self-heals will always be rather strong. And even then, as long as you provide a burst self-heal for the tank or solo players, no-one prevents DDs from slotting it themselves, which means it's not even a solution.

IMHO, self-heals are not too strong, though. A DD healing is not doing damage, and neither is she sending resources. In more advanced content, that is a considerable drawback.
You see those 3-DD-runs mostly in easier content. And then, it's an issue of people out-levelling older content, or just having become better at the game. Less one-shots and more DoTs or frequent but smaller amounts of damage is a good way forward.

I don't think that drastic measures or re-designs are needed.

Exactly. Simply revising mega-one-shots as dots is enough to retain difficulty and make healers more needed (one shots that drive mechanics or result from tank error are fine). No need to mess with self-heals and disturb the balance or throw PvP further off kilt.

Arunei · May 2019

I think the easiest thing to make healers more relevant would just be to add a debuff that causes unavoidable damage every second, which increases more and more per tick. The initial ticks could likely be outhealed but unless tank or DPS slot Purge (yes make it purgeable and maybe it reapplies every x minutes) eventually it'll start costing the tank and DPS too much of their resource to effectively heal. Maybe make it cap out at something like 40% damage; make it so 1 tank/3 DPS CAN outheal it, but that means they're having to focus on mechanics because so much of their time/resources are spent healing and staying alive that they can't just burn through bosses.

Cryptical · May 2019

Other than fixing a bug or closing an exploit, they don’t touch dungeons after release. Not in the slightest. Not even to correct design flaws. Example: to this day you cannot walk out of bloodroot forge after completion. They forgot to put a portal at the end that returns you to the start, so you are trapped there in the final boss area unless you leave group or fast travel out.

So save yourself the time and accept that they will never tweak the balance of any of the existing dungeons, ever.

Thus, the only path to having the game require a dedicated healer is the addition of new content. That is a slow process, and it will take years before the game can be considered to require a healer for the average dungeon.

The alternative, as far as I can see, would be to cut self heal strength, leading to people being more easily destroyed in pvp if they got cc’d, which would require a great reduction in the strength and number of ways a person can be rendered unable to act. And I doubt that will ever happen, because the impression I have is that some developer has some sort of fetish for making people lose control of their character.

mairwen85 · May 2019

Cryptical wrote: »

Other than fixing a bug or closing an exploit, they don’t touch dungeons after release. Not in the slightest.

Quite a lot of stuff happens to dungeons; mostly nerfs to damage dealt by bosses and mobs. ZoS regularly revisit dungeons to 'adjust' them.

Most recently:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462013/why-are-they-nerfing-dungeons/p1

Nifty2g · May 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

Self heals are insanely strong, that's why healers are worthless in this kind of content.

Maybe they just need a third difficulty tier, it could even be as simple as %hp, %damage and %mitigation increases, then chuck a flat healing debuff in there to a point where DD's can't sustain on self heals alone.

Dedicated healer heals would also be down but part of the difficulty I guess.

Also, you'd probs just get dds heal stacking each other.

True but if I'm healing myself, or another, I'm wasting resource and not doing damage.

Even if you got dd's healing each other it's still more dps having 3 than a dedicated healer, and thats where the problem is. ZOS should revisit healing and do a skill redesign and totally change the value of things, that is if they are unhappy with current gameplay and by the looks of it, theyre fine with how it is since its been like this for a few years now

yooqi · May 2019

Don't mess with self heals - that's just going to make people suffer in PVP or make them unable to solo stuff (like solo farming dungeons).

One shots are what makes people feel like healers are useless. Constant damage that needs to be healed or purged is much better. DPS will still need to follow mechanics to get less damage - you'll still die if you stand in stupid and get 2-3 hits back to back, but at least a good healer might just save you.

zaria · May 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

The problem with "nerf self-heals" is that those are often the same skills that a healer is using to heal. Things like Surge and Resto staff aside - as long as your class skill is used by a healer, it can also be slotted by a DD or tank. And tanks need some form of self-heal.
So unless you severely restrict skills, strictly dividing them up into those that only heal the caster, or only heal other people (which would gut healers considerably, defeating the purpose of this exercise), self-heals will always be rather strong. And even then, as long as you provide a burst self-heal for the tank or solo players, no-one prevents DDs from slotting it themselves, which means it's not even a solution.

IMHO, self-heals are not too strong, though. A DD healing is not doing damage, and neither is she sending resources. In more advanced content, that is a considerable drawback.
You see those 3-DD-runs mostly in easier content. And then, it's an issue of people out-levelling older content, or just having become better at the game. Less one-shots and more DoTs or frequent but smaller amounts of damage is a good way forward.

I don't think that drastic measures or re-designs are needed.

Exactly. Simply revising mega-one-shots as dots is enough to retain difficulty and make healers more needed (one shots that drive mechanics or result from tank error are fine). No need to mess with self-heals and disturb the balance or throw PvP further off kilt.

This, Scalecaller Peak is one example at this on the ice elementals there an healer can compensate for low dps however here 3 good DD probably works better.
Still replace one shots with high level dots.

MaleAmazon · May 2019

So save yourself the time and accept that they will never tweak the balance of any of the existing dungeons, ever.

Sure they do. Normal and vet versions of dungeons like FG II, for example.

Kuramas9tails · May 2019

At this point in the game, I don't think there is a saving grace for this topic.

ghastley · May 2019

Isn't the issue here that self-healing DPS and damage-contributing healer have become indistinguishable? If the same classes and same weapons are used for both, that's going to happen. And solo play, PvP or PvE, makes that appear desirable.

There need to be more situations where the strength/scope of a heal depends on the player slotting multiple healing abilities, so there's a clear advantage to picking the role and sticking to it. I.e. a DPS using the heal and a healer using it, should not give the same result, or the single slot replaces the role.

We have that for heavy armour, for example, where you need to wear five items to get a bonus. Do the same for healing. It shouldn't hurt solo, but will enhance team play.

Girl_Number8 · May 2019

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

At this point in the game, I don't think there is a saving grace for this topic.

This^

Though healers are relevant to the average groups. Also, raid groups, especially the ones going for top scores and achievements.

The one shot mechs are l a m e, so if they would adjust these, I think that would help the healer role.

Though tbh with a great tanky on hard content, we can burn stuff down to nothing and usually even without one. It is just that we are more experienced players, after years on this game. To the middle ground players that make up the majority of the player base, I do certainly think they need a healer.

Beyond the one shot garbage, I think healers are in a fine position in the game. Munching on ap and getting the VIP treatment with the dungeon finder, lol. Not to mention trials groups.

Again with more experienced players it depends on the content....

idk · May 2019

Arunei wrote: »

I think the easiest thing to make healers more relevant would just be to add a debuff that causes unavoidable damage every second, which increases more and more per tick. The initial ticks could likely be outhealed but unless tank or DPS slot Purge (yes make it purgeable and maybe it reapplies every x minutes) eventually it'll start costing the tank and DPS too much of their resource to effectively heal. Maybe make it cap out at something like 40% damage; make it so 1 tank/3 DPS CAN outheal it, but that means they're having to focus on mechanics because so much of their time/resources are spent healing and staying alive that they can't just burn through bosses.

This is not a wise course of action. To easy to work around since a tank or healer can slot purge and for a healers sake it forces them to do PvP even if all they want to do is heal 4 man dungeons, no trials.