Can you be a tank with both bars using ice staff?

startstriker · April 2019

I’m far from an expert but was wondering what kind of potential issues would come from trying this type of setup for tanking worth mentioning I wouldn’t be doing any vet content with this.

One of my main concerns with this is I’ve heard it said some bosses are immune to the ice staff taunt any advice would be appreciated.

russelmmendoza · April 2019

Cant we just taunt using freeze staff.

La and ha using freeze staff both taunt npc, cant they just give us this. With all the nerf their dishing out.

VaranisArano · April 2019

Yes, you can. You'll be missing out on the debuffs from One Hand and Shield unless you can get them from other sources, and I'd still recommend using Inner Fire as a backup taunt for those times when the ice staff heavy would take too long to wind up.

There are no bosses immune to ice staff heavy taunt specifically - there are a few bosses immune to ALL taunts. On those, most tanks just do DPS or focus on debuffing+add control.

So I'd say it's workable for normal dungeons, but if you want to have perfect uptime on your taunt, I'd run Inner Fire as a backup - there were times I needed to do a mechanics and then I had too little time to heavy attack taunt.

Malprave · April 2019

No. You need sword and board on the front bar and inner fire on the staff bar. You're never going to taunt with the heavy attack. Ranged taunt is inner fire. The staff heavy attack is way too slow and frequently a dps life may depend on reeling that boss back in quickly (Like the final boss on Bloodroot Forge where one of the three will occasionally get away). Not to mention the heavy attack will force you to drop block which can be disaster.

Artim_X · April 2019

Malprave wrote: »

No. You need sword and board on the front bar and inner fire on the staff bar. You're never going to taunt with the heavy attack. Ranged taunt is inner fire. The staff heavy attack is way too slow and frequently a dps life may depend on reeling that boss back in quickly (Like the final boss on Bloodroot Forge where one of the three will occasionally get away). Not to mention the heavy attack will force you to drop block which can be disaster.

The OP isn't planning on running vet content and a pure traditional tank isn't needed in a normal dungeon. Frost staff tanking normal content is easy if you incorporate the heavy attack into a DPS rotation (reapplying taunt before aggro is lost).

idk · April 2019

Some of the information here is correct such as @VaranisArano explaining yet you can, but it is not as effective.

For one, you want to make sure you have inner fire from the Undaunted line as you really need to know when it is safe to drop block to use the frost staff taunt. Tanks need to keep taunt up full time. If it drops off then you are no longer tanking.

Further, frost staff is inferior to S&B in multiple ways including the lack of major fracture and breach and less damage reduction, especially due to the lack of shield which is the largest piece of armor in the game. It also lacks gap closer which is rarely used in serious tanking but there is at least one fight it is helpful in.

To put it into perspective, you can have fun with the frost staves but no one does frost staff tanking in vet HM trials because of it's weakness. When you see a tank with a staff back bar it is for keeping up crusher enchant and they do not have points into the passives that make it an actual tanking weapon.

Have fun with it if you want to go that route.

Aulus_Claudius · April 2019

You definitely can. Anyone who says otherwise has never tried it seriously or is just meta-blinded. You do not have to play a meta build to clear content successfully, even in vet trials - your build just has to be well-planned and tailored to the content you're running.

The main things you'll be "missing" are a cheap melee taunt and the resistance debuffs. Magicka you can debuff with the staff, but stamina is class-dependent (DK, Warden, NB). Honestly, there are multiple sources for those that aren't the tank, people just want to be lazy and not use them, but I digress.

You can run the same glyphs as with s+b, although whether you take infused on both bars is a question you'll have to figure out on a build-by-build basis. You'll proc Minor Maim constantly if you keep a Wall of Elements up, which you want to anyway to keep your backbar glyph procced and help hold aggro from large add groups, so don't worry about "losing" that from s+b.

As many here have said, Inner Fire as a "backup" taunt is a must, but I find myself using far more magicka-heavy builds with my staff tanks than I ever could with the sword+board tanks because the heavy attack is so powerful for resource generation. The instant taunt is something I save for emergencies, like when I lose a boss or an important add.

Don't forget that your "pull" ability also has the unstated effect of guaranteeing you aggro for a few seconds - enough time for that heavy attack. Whether you morph Inner Fire to magicka or stamina is very much dependent on the resource management of your particular build. Usually I'll take stamina if my pull is magicka-based (class skill), and magicka if my class relies on the stamina-based crossbow to pull. This helps keep you from running out of some way to grab a mob's attention in a pinch.

I could go on, but it's late and this post is long enough. If you want to staff tank, I encourage you to do so - it's a lot of fun and perfectly doable.

Smasherx74 · April 2019

Artim_X wrote: »

Malprave wrote: »

No. You need sword and board on the front bar and inner fire on the staff bar. You're never going to taunt with the heavy attack. Ranged taunt is inner fire. The staff heavy attack is way too slow and frequently a dps life may depend on reeling that boss back in quickly (Like the final boss on Bloodroot Forge where one of the three will occasionally get away). Not to mention the heavy attack will force you to drop block which can be disaster.

The OP isn't planning on running vet content and a pure traditional tank isn't needed in a normal dungeon. Frost staff tanking normal content is easy if you incorporate the heavy attack into a DPS rotation (reapplying taunt before aggro is lost).

Okay so if we're talking about casual play in normal dungeons then you can literally do anything you want and it'll be viable, even go first person mode and start heavy attacking everything unarmed is viable.

Realistically speaking... the heavy attack taunt on ice staff is useful but not something that can be your main taunt due to how slow it is. In ESO you have to taunt multiple targets individually very quickly and keep your taunts up while preferably applying other debuffs and buffs to the group. Heavy attacking every single target is far too slow, however of course the heavy atk taunt can be useful for a tank it hits further than inner fire and regens rss since it's heavy attack.

ZOS could bring back the trait that speeds up your heavy attacks, but it's likely lighting staff for sorcs would become too OP knowing ZOS. They simply have not intended frost staff heavy attack to be your main taunt, if you want to join my veteran random pug then it's fine, I'll run you through any dungeon because I put the time and effort into building my character and learning the game for years. But don't dare make the argument "It's viable to play with" when it's extremely inefficient.

EyelessCZ · April 2019

My main is double Ice staff magblade tank and I, or my usual group from our guild don´t feel any handicap by it. True is, when situation requires, I am using inner fire as well (multiple big mobs or bosses), but there is no better or worst reaction from the bosses. Every form of taunt works with same validity.
If boss is untauntable, like Drodda in Direfrost keep, all you can do is get her ressistances low, for example with Reaping Mark (NB skill) and help healer with Sap essence. They are lots of ways, how to help others.
If you are in trial, you can taunt easily lots of big mobs or minibosses, while freezing a LOT of lesser mobs with Time freeze (Psijic skill). When DDs are quick but not hot-headed to nuke big guys, they can quickly swarm them, than return to me, while I am holding bigs away. No healer feel hell while healing party that time.
All you need is find your rythm and ballance Heavy attacks with Innerfire. Remember, taunting with Ice staff don´t cost anything, it replenishes your magicka. So its more effective.

ccfeeling · April 2019

A tank without Major Fracture ?
Or you can use class skill do it instead

Darkenarlol · April 2019

you can tank with whatever you want...

with bow... or 1 dagger and no shield or...

even naked if members of your group have no objections =D

(who knows maybe hardcore nudist vet dlc HM conquerors is a thing)

Artim_X · April 2019

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Artim_X wrote: »

Malprave wrote: »

No. You need sword and board on the front bar and inner fire on the staff bar. You're never going to taunt with the heavy attack. Ranged taunt is inner fire. The staff heavy attack is way too slow and frequently a dps life may depend on reeling that boss back in quickly (Like the final boss on Bloodroot Forge where one of the three will occasionally get away). Not to mention the heavy attack will force you to drop block which can be disaster.

The OP isn't planning on running vet content and a pure traditional tank isn't needed in a normal dungeon. Frost staff tanking normal content is easy if you incorporate the heavy attack into a DPS rotation (reapplying taunt before aggro is lost).

Okay so if we're talking about casual play in normal dungeons then you can literally do anything you want and it'll be viable, even go first person mode and start heavy attacking everything unarmed is viable.

Realistically speaking... the heavy attack taunt on ice staff is useful but not something that can be your main taunt due to how slow it is. In ESO you have to taunt multiple targets individually very quickly and keep your taunts up while preferably applying other debuffs and buffs to the group. Heavy attacking every single target is far too slow, however of course the heavy atk taunt can be useful for a tank it hits further than inner fire and regens rss since it's heavy attack.

ZOS could bring back the trait that speeds up your heavy attacks, but it's likely lighting staff for sorcs would become too OP knowing ZOS. They simply have not intended frost staff heavy attack to be your main taunt, if you want to join my veteran random pug then it's fine, I'll run you through any dungeon because I put the time and effort into building my character and learning the game for years. But don't dare make the argument "It's viable to play with" when it's extremely inefficient.

If you know what you're doing you'll never lose aggro with a frost staff (heavy attack significant enemies before aggro is lost, which is very easy if you have a rotation that ensures you aren't just randomly heavy attacking to maintain aggro). PvE is predictable and never truly offers any surprises. After you've experienced a dungeon a few times you'll always know what does and doesn't need to be taunted, when to block, when to dodge, etc. For the most part a tank only really needs to taunt the enemies in mobs that can one shot unprepared players and the bosses. In a normal dungeon as long as someone can hold aggro, keep the boss in place, and not die they're essentially a tank. Of course, a more experienced player can focus more on dealing damage than on being tanky, since significant tankiness isn't needed in a normal dungeon and a DPS tank's personal damage can offset their lack of buffs/debuffs in a 4 person group especially if the actual damage dealers are the typical inexperienced damage dealers one tends to get in pugs. Of course, this would not work in a trial setting even if set to normal due to the number of damage dealers present (buffs/debuffs significantly affect overall group DPS) and hard-hitting mechanics that demand that the tank or tanks are truly built to survive.

Kelces · April 2019

Technically, you can. Practically, depends on your company and their view of popular builds. I would not recommend any experiments in trials before you did testing of your setup thuroughly before going there.

Overall, for me it has been quite fun, but much more difficult than shield builds.

Astelo · April 2019

For sure frost staff magicka tank is viable. Atm running warden with ebon and draugrs rest sets going to get the right alkosh pieces and still hitting resistance cap buffed. Did all normal trials and vet dlc dungeons with hardmodes without problems up to now except dumb players in team still can kill you by ignoring mechanics like running into you with wrong colour on MoL twin boss xD
You need to be coordinated well in trials to get the taunts done quick and the mobs pulled together but for dungeons i never want to go back to my s&b dk tank

Smasherx74 · April 2019

[Quoted post has been removed.]

Again, my initial post that you responded to outlined that if we're talking about casual gameplay, normal dungeons, overworld quests, even unarmed first person heavy attacking is viable. I specified most content, veteran dungeons, the most commonly ran content.

MattT1988 · April 2019

You can. But you probably shouldn’t considering what you’ll miss out on without a sword and board.

Jeremy · April 2019

startstriker wrote: »

I’m far from an expert but was wondering what kind of potential issues would come from trying this type of setup for tanking worth mentioning I wouldn’t be doing any vet content with this.

One of my main concerns with this is I’ve heard it said some bosses are immune to the ice staff taunt any advice would be appreciated.

I've played with some very good sorcerer tanks who used an Ice Staff (no sword and shield). So it can be done.

I would imagine any boss that was immune to the Ice Staff taunt would be immune to all manner of taunts. So I wouldn't see that as a unique weakness of the staff. Though I should warn you the Ice Staff heavy attack (which is what causes the taunt) is very slow and cumbersome and frankly just annoying to use. So I would slot a back up taunt anyway, like maybe Inner Fire.

Mitrenga · April 2019

I think it would make your job harder. Most buffs are magicka based, blocking with a staff drains your magicka and no regeneration while blocking. On the otherhand, missing the heroic slash and puncture would not be feasible for a group. With Witchmother's drink, Dark Deal and Equilibrium maybe you can manage the resources but I would test it before going into the vet Trials.

ryzen_gamer_gal · April 2019

After getting my *** handed to me in vet Cradle of Shadows with a single attack for 62k (veil of darkness (no not web of darkness or shadow or whatever it's called) i think her attack is called - insects thrashing against the web, how delightful) that one shotted my 37k health tank every time i tried, i would say that two staffs might not be the best play. Yes you get a shield from the frost staff but this might not be your best option. I taunted her and blocked her and bashed her but nothing mattered. i died every time. And i got ridiculed besides. still miffed. Plus i'm not sure what you would get from two ice staffs. If one ice staff were a lightning staff you could have a wall of elements for shock to use on mobs and the chain lightning effect that your lightning staff provides to nearby enemies. Seems like a better use of staff space. put inner fire and silver leash on that bar to help pull the mobs in.. taunt the big guys in mobs while being actually useful in a fight. Well i mean, until you try vet cradle of shadows and then you'll see what you've got to offer the group.. I thought this build was tight when i tanks vet coa2 and got the valkyn set... i think i will stick to healer build for vet cradle of shadows...

ryzen_gamer_gal · April 2019

Tide of Darkness
The boss swings its staff around, releasing red magical projectiles that strike all players in front of her. This attack does massive damage, and should be blocked by the tank as indicated by the block telegraph. The tank should also ensure the boss is facing away from the team so they do not get hit. Dodge rolling will also help avoid this attack.

ryzen_gamer_gal · April 2019

maybe it was just lag that was the problem or there was some other issue but i truly couldnt block this and it didnt seem to help to try to block.

VaranisArano · April 2019

Darkenarlol wrote: »

you can tank with whatever you want...

with bow... or 1 dagger and no shield or...

even naked if members of your group have no objections =D

(who knows maybe hardcore nudist vet dlc HM conquerors is a thing)

If you have a taunt like Inner Fire or are using the Tormentor set with all that, sure.

If you don't have a taunt to guarantee that you hold aggro, you aren't a tank.

todokete · April 2019

For me you wouldn't be a good tank. Just another dps with a taunt. You need puncture for those major buffs

Tyrobag · April 2019

You would need a source of Maj. Fracture and Maj. Breach. A NB could sort of pull it off, but they can only apply mark to 1 target at a time unfortunately.

david_m_18b16_ESO · April 2019

Yes in norm you can tank with anything. I have seen magNB tanking with double flame staff.

In Vet I doubt that you could. Maybe some of them if you are over geared and skilled and play with a skilled group.

Aulus_Claudius · April 2019

(Removed indignant reply, as the offending quoted post was removed by a moderator. For context, the person claimed that a staff tank can't work because of the cast time associated with taunting.)

No one ever said that you can only taunt with your heavy attack. In every instance, a staff tank has to decide whether he can spare the couple seconds and get a ton of resources back for further protecting himself and his group or debuffing, or if it's important enough to expend the resources for an instant taunt.

A staff tank can keep up to 3 taunts up just fine with only heavy attacks and the occasional Inner Fire for those times when you had to interrupt the heavy to block something and didn't leave yourself any time. Any more than that and you'll have to start using Inner Fire as a fixed part of your taunt rotation, but that's just resource management at that point. Tanks are needlessly squishy in ESO in PvE as it is, so if you're having trouble with resources for certain bosses there are sets like Desert Rose you can run for those fights.

It's a completely different style of tanking, and a very different form of resource and time management compared to s+b, but that's all. If you can't tank vet trials with a double staff tank that says more about you and how unable you are to adapt and play outside the meta than it does about staff tanking.

Morgul667 · April 2019

You can and you can finish vet content but its definitely not meta

Lord_Ninka · April 2019

Yes, you can tank any vet content with ice staves. Including trials. The hardest bit about it is making sure you don't run out of stamina to dodge and break free as you can't recover it with heavy attacks, but you can solve that problem with Champion Points, sets, enchantments, and/or abilities.

Don't listen to the haters who just don't want to see anything new or different. Luckily, there are loads of people in the game who won't kick you just because you're not like the last tank they played with if you do a decent job.

Just go ahead and try some content you're comfortable with first and see how it feels, then move on if it felt all right.

Aulus_Claudius · April 2019

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

Yes, you can tank any vet content with ice staves. Including trials. The hardest bit about it is making sure you don't run out of stamina to dodge and break free as you can't recover it with heavy attacks, but you can solve that problem with Champion Points, sets, enchantments, and/or abilities.

Don't listen to the haters who just don't want to see anything new or different. Luckily, there are loads of people in the game who won't kick you just because you're not like the last tank they played with if you do a decent job.

Just go ahead and try some content you're comfortable with first and see how it feels, then move on if it felt all right.

Yep, some folks just can't stand to see anything new or different than what they're used to, and expect everyone to play identically. It's sad that our species tends to be so narrow-minded.

You hit on one point I forgot about and it's important for a staff tank: stamina management for dodging, especially with the stamina morph of Inner Fire. I recommend every staff tank out there always have 200 Immovable Potions with stamina recovery on them. What you can't afford is to run out of stamina or to be constantly interrupted during heavy attacks - that leads to you having no more time to start them over, forcing you to expend resources for an instant taunt, which (depending on your morph) costs yet more stamina.

I run +potion duration glyphs on my jewelry for my staff tanks rather than reduced block costs - the extra heavies that will go through with Immovable more than make up for any lost magicka by blocking without reduced cost glyphs. You just have to learn on a boss-by-boss basis for your build which stuns you can just heavy attack through, which are scripted and will stun you anyway, and which attacks you still have to block or roll due to the damage they inflict.

bigelle.x3_ESO · April 2019

If you're not doing vet content, you can run a pure dps setup and inner fire to taunt.

startstriker · April 2019

Aulus_Claudius wrote: »

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

Yes, you can tank any vet content with ice staves. Including trials. The hardest bit about it is making sure you don't run out of stamina to dodge and break free as you can't recover it with heavy attacks, but you can solve that problem with Champion Points, sets, enchantments, and/or abilities.

Don't listen to the haters who just don't want to see anything new or different. Luckily, there are loads of people in the game who won't kick you just because you're not like the last tank they played with if you do a decent job.

Just go ahead and try some content you're comfortable with first and see how it feels, then move on if it felt all right.

Yep, some folks just can't stand to see anything new or different than what they're used to, and expect everyone to play identically. It's sad that our species tends to be so narrow-minded.

You hit on one point I forgot about and it's important for a staff tank: stamina management for dodging, especially with the stamina morph of Inner Fire. I recommend every staff tank out there always have 200 Immovable Potions with stamina recovery on them. What you can't afford is to run out of stamina or to be constantly interrupted during heavy attacks - that leads to you having no more time to start them over, forcing you to expend resources for an instant taunt, which (depending on your morph) costs yet more stamina.

I run +potion duration glyphs on my jewelry for my staff tanks rather than reduced block costs - the extra heavies that will go through with Immovable more than make up for any lost magicka by blocking without reduced cost glyphs. You just have to learn on a boss-by-boss basis for your build which stuns you can just heavy attack through, which are scripted and will stun you anyway, and which attacks you still have to block or roll due to the damage they inflict.

How much stamina would you aim for? I’m hoping to have it as a magic tank but stamina is important for a tank.