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Off-Meta Building Pain Points
GrumpyDuckling
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One of my bigger gripes with ESO is how unforgiving and annoying it can be to actually play how you want. Making an off-meta build shouldn't feel bad, yet the way classes and weapon skill lines are constructed can make certain builds quite frustrating to use. An example of an off-meta build that is frustrating to use is Stamina Archer Templar, which has the following pain points:
Note: The point of this thread is not to argue which class has it tougher when constructing certain builds (for example: the kit of a pure DK archer is woefully painful). The point of this thread it is to show how many pain points can exist when off-meta building. I simply used a Stamplar archer as the example. Perhaps in future updates more thought could be put into alleviating some pain points that currently exist in off-meta building scenarios. Thanks.
Edited by GrumpyDuckling on April 27, 2019 2:38PM 1) Major Brutality
It's access is gated behind other weapons (such as 2H for Rally), occupancy of a 5 piece set (Dreugh King Slayer), or high-volume potion usage -- all for an important buff that most other classes can keep up with ease.
2) Conditional Bow Power
1/4 of Bow power is conditionally gated behind the Hawk's Eye passive, which means that all bow skills drop 1/4 of their damage unless a light attack is performed once every 5 seconds. Miss that 5 second window, and you have to perform 5 light attacks to get that power back. It's not fun how this passive works, especially in PVP. It doesn't feel good to have a small window of trying to maintain a significant chunk of your damage. Note: This applies to all bow users, not just Templars.
3) Major Savagery
It's access is gated behind a melee range skill (Biting Jabs), which largely defeats the point of wanting to make a ranged build. Expert Hunter (through Fighter's Guild skill line) exists as an option, but doesn't rank high on skills that are particularly useful when activated, largely amounting to a slotted skill that passively just sits there on a skill bar.
4) Ranged Attacks
Spear Shards, Sun Fire, Solar Flare, Eclipse, and Radiant Destruction are some nice ranged attacks that could fit in well with a stamina archer build, but those attacks scale only on magicka.
5) Useless Passives
Passives such as Enduring Rays, Illuminate, Mending, and Light Weaver are class passives that are often useless for a stamina archer character.
It's access is gated behind other weapons (such as 2H for Rally), occupancy of a 5 piece set (Dreugh King Slayer), or high-volume potion usage -- all for an important buff that most other classes can keep up with ease.
2) Conditional Bow Power
1/4 of Bow power is conditionally gated behind the Hawk's Eye passive, which means that all bow skills drop 1/4 of their damage unless a light attack is performed once every 5 seconds. Miss that 5 second window, and you have to perform 5 light attacks to get that power back. It's not fun how this passive works, especially in PVP. It doesn't feel good to have a small window of trying to maintain a significant chunk of your damage. Note: This applies to all bow users, not just Templars.
3) Major Savagery
It's access is gated behind a melee range skill (Biting Jabs), which largely defeats the point of wanting to make a ranged build. Expert Hunter (through Fighter's Guild skill line) exists as an option, but doesn't rank high on skills that are particularly useful when activated, largely amounting to a slotted skill that passively just sits there on a skill bar.
4) Ranged Attacks
Spear Shards, Sun Fire, Solar Flare, Eclipse, and Radiant Destruction are some nice ranged attacks that could fit in well with a stamina archer build, but those attacks scale only on magicka.
5) Useless Passives
Passives such as Enduring Rays, Illuminate, Mending, and Light Weaver are class passives that are often useless for a stamina archer character.
Note: The point of this thread is not to argue which class has it tougher when constructing certain builds (for example: the kit of a pure DK archer is woefully painful). The point of this thread it is to show how many pain points can exist when off-meta building. I simply used a Stamplar archer as the example. Perhaps in future updates more thought could be put into alleviating some pain points that currently exist in off-meta building scenarios. Thanks.
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Taraezor✭✭✭I am gobsmacked about your point #2.
It is very very standard in MMOs to have a "rotation" or "priority" requirement if you want to maximise DPS. This is one such example. It is very much a PvE mechanic. You are clearly wanting to maximise your DPS, or you would not complain about this synergy.
If ZOS were to take ALL these kind of things away then the game would have no skill synergies at all. Lack of synergy would leave ESO open to criticism that the game has degenerated into an early-days WoW style without the cooldowns. We would therefore essentially button mash a single spell which yields the highest DPS and we'd have nothing to do while waiting for our power source to refill.
If ZOS were to take just this one away then other players would ask for something else of a similar ilk to be taken away and they would feel entitled because of precedent.
By having skill synergies such as this in the game then we are forced to think and to prioritise. Balancing our power sources, DPS synergies, preceding used skill, potential upcoming skills, and such. It makes for a far more interesting game. Players now spend a ton of time in MMOs like this on target dummies or non-technical high health bosses, perfecting and experimenting with priorities and rotations.
When a certain skill synergy "set" does not fit a player's requirements for a certain play-style, especially when that play-style is broadly defined as "PvE" or "PvP", then the player is forced to choose a different set of skills or to shoehorn the synergy into their play-style.
So many players could argue for any and all other skills to be altered to suit their individual requirements. ZOS cannot please everyone. They have provided us with a broad, rich and interesting palette from which to craft our hot bars.
From a personal point of view: A simple light attack followed by whatever bow skill you want to use is not an onerous requirement for a synergy. Very basic and easily worked into your attack. Plus its unlikely your hot bar would just contain bow skills.4 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I am gobsmacked about your point #2.
Hyperbole.
I say "It's not fun how [Hawk's Eye passive] works, especially in PVP. It doesn't feel good to have a small window of trying to maintain a significant chunk of your damage," and your response is that you are overwhelmed with wonder, surprise, or shock?
It's difficult to take your response seriously.1 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I am gobsmacked about your point #2.
Hyperbole.
I say "It's not fun how [Hawk's Eye passive] works, especially in PVP. It doesn't feel good to have a small window of trying to maintain a significant chunk of your damage," and your response is that you are overwhelmed with wonder, surprise, or shock?
It's difficult to take your response seriously.
The way that passive works is on purpose, could you imagine getting hit by a snipe that was a full 25% stronger then normal out of stealth. It is a great passive and part of the reason bow/bow builds are viable in pve.
On your buff pain points, you don't really need those for most content. And when they are important, you run pots. Period. Anything else is a DPS loss.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on April 28, 2019 11:25PM0 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭I can relate OP.
Off meta builds can require alot of investment as well as being cumbersome.
Of course the meta is easy.
I now shy away from using it but master axes> rending, dawn breaker, and spin to win.
My opponents cant block the bleed and cant dodge the spin. I dont even have to aim. I would just follow them pressing a button. Its deadly.
Nevermind hawk eye. I was passively doing more damage as their health drops. Easy money.
I personally prefer the look and feel of two hand and bow, but dual wield is on another level.
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GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I am gobsmacked about your point #2.
Hyperbole.
I say "It's not fun how [Hawk's Eye passive] works, especially in PVP. It doesn't feel good to have a small window of trying to maintain a significant chunk of your damage," and your response is that you are overwhelmed with wonder, surprise, or shock?
It's difficult to take your response seriously.
The way that passive works is on purpose, could you imagine getting hit by a snipe that was a full 25% stronger then normal out of stealth. It is a great passive and part of the reason bow/bow builds are viable in pve.
On your buff pain points, you don't really need those for most content. And when they are important, you run pots. Period. Anything else is a DPS loss.
Yes, I could imagine getting hit by a snipe in PVP that is 25% stronger because that would equate to how much damage it currently does on live (Elsweyr is nerfing snipe damage by exactly 25%).
Also, I don't subscribe to the fear of a single skill in PVP (snipe) controlling the rest of the skill line. The damage of snipe could be reduced if the passive were to be changed.0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I am gobsmacked about your point #2.
Hyperbole.
I say "It's not fun how [Hawk's Eye passive] works, especially in PVP. It doesn't feel good to have a small window of trying to maintain a significant chunk of your damage," and your response is that you are overwhelmed with wonder, surprise, or shock?
It's difficult to take your response seriously.
The way that passive works is on purpose, could you imagine getting hit by a snipe that was a full 25% stronger then normal out of stealth. It is a great passive and part of the reason bow/bow builds are viable in pve.
On your buff pain points, you don't really need those for most content. And when they are important, you run pots. Period. Anything else is a DPS loss.
Yes, I could imagine getting hit by a snipe in PVP that is 25% stronger because that would equate to how much damage it currently does on live (Elsweyr is nerfing snipe damage by exactly 25%).
Also, I don't subscribe to the fear of a single skill in PVP (snipe) controlling the rest of the skill line. The damage of snipe could be reduced if the passive were to be changed.
lol you do know that you can get hit from a snipe at 40 meters? and right now the skill is still really strong. it will continue to be the strongest single target spammable skill past melee range. it does not matter if you "subscribe to the fear"(lol whatever that means), that is just the way the game works.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I am gobsmacked about your point #2.
Hyperbole.
I say "It's not fun how [Hawk's Eye passive] works, especially in PVP. It doesn't feel good to have a small window of trying to maintain a significant chunk of your damage," and your response is that you are overwhelmed with wonder, surprise, or shock?
It's difficult to take your response seriously.
The way that passive works is on purpose, could you imagine getting hit by a snipe that was a full 25% stronger then normal out of stealth. It is a great passive and part of the reason bow/bow builds are viable in pve.
On your buff pain points, you don't really need those for most content. And when they are important, you run pots. Period. Anything else is a DPS loss.
Yes, I could imagine getting hit by a snipe in PVP that is 25% stronger because that would equate to how much damage it currently does on live (Elsweyr is nerfing snipe damage by exactly 25%).
Also, I don't subscribe to the fear of a single skill in PVP (snipe) controlling the rest of the skill line. The damage of snipe could be reduced if the passive were to be changed.
lol you do know that you can get hit from a snipe at 40 meters? and right now the skill is still really strong. it will continue to be the strongest single target spammable skill past melee range. it does not matter if you "subscribe to the fear"(lol whatever that means), that is just the way the game works.
I think if I have to explain what the phrase "subscribe to the fear" means, then our back and forth has run its course. Take care.0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I am gobsmacked about your point #2.
Hyperbole.
I say "It's not fun how [Hawk's Eye passive] works, especially in PVP. It doesn't feel good to have a small window of trying to maintain a significant chunk of your damage," and your response is that you are overwhelmed with wonder, surprise, or shock?
It's difficult to take your response seriously.
The way that passive works is on purpose, could you imagine getting hit by a snipe that was a full 25% stronger then normal out of stealth. It is a great passive and part of the reason bow/bow builds are viable in pve.
On your buff pain points, you don't really need those for most content. And when they are important, you run pots. Period. Anything else is a DPS loss.
Yes, I could imagine getting hit by a snipe in PVP that is 25% stronger because that would equate to how much damage it currently does on live (Elsweyr is nerfing snipe damage by exactly 25%).
Also, I don't subscribe to the fear of a single skill in PVP (snipe) controlling the rest of the skill line. The damage of snipe could be reduced if the passive were to be changed.
lol you do know that you can get hit from a snipe at 40 meters? and right now the skill is still really strong. it will continue to be the strongest single target spammable skill past melee range. it does not matter if you "subscribe to the fear"(lol whatever that means), that is just the way the game works.
I think if I have to explain what the phrase "subscribe to the fear" means, then our back and forth has run its course. Take care.
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mague✭✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »One of my bigger gripes with ESO is how unforgiving and annoying it can be to actually play how you want.
I think it is not so much the problem of the classes. It is a problem of the weapon skill lines and the complete lack of different weapon types. There are no s&b, dual wields or two hand weapons scaling of magicka. There is no npc turning any weapon into a scroll to equip to have the visuals of unarmed combat. yes, unarmed combat is another "play how you want" build.
As it is "play how you want" works perfect in overland questing. In groups and PvP you have to submit to meta. A little bit at least.
Edited by mague on April 29, 2019 1:02PM0 -
Elwendryll✭✭✭✭✭
✭I play 2h/Bow. It's off meta. I'm having fun with it. I can still clear vet trials. I have to perfect my rotation and build to reach 45k dps, but I know it's possible.
Anyway, you're not forced to play the meta. It's harder to do without (obviously, because that's the meta), but you can achieve good enough results provided you invest enough time in it. Just make sure to be surrounded by open minded people who will allow you to run whatever you want as long as the results are here.Edited by Elwendryll on April 29, 2019 1:27PMPC - EU - France - AD
Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
Guildmaster of Oriflamme: Focus on 4 player endgame content.
Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.
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