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My thoughts on wings
Vencenzo
✭✭✭
As a vanilla Blazing Shield Templar I'm all too used to my reflect damage being nerfed so I feel you DK bros..
I've discussed this skill many times with many people. I do agree to an extent that it creates some hard countering which is the argument against it mainly. I however don't agree with removing the reflect mechanic or making it too much like crystal shield (I don't support class mirroring in any case for multiple reasons). I don't personally have an issue with wings as it is but I see the the logic in the counterarguments.
To have good build diversity there should be as much counterplay as possible, yet as little hardcounters as possible.
I think the solution to this is to leave wings the same but add the mechanic that it cannot reflect projectiles from less than 8meters.
This would create counterplay for any ranged build to move in closer while not forcing every DK into a gap closer build. As well as not removing DK pvp tanks niche.
I've discussed this skill many times with many people. I do agree to an extent that it creates some hard countering which is the argument against it mainly. I however don't agree with removing the reflect mechanic or making it too much like crystal shield (I don't support class mirroring in any case for multiple reasons). I don't personally have an issue with wings as it is but I see the the logic in the counterarguments.
To have good build diversity there should be as much counterplay as possible, yet as little hardcounters as possible.
I think the solution to this is to leave wings the same but add the mechanic that it cannot reflect projectiles from less than 8meters.
This would create counterplay for any ranged build to move in closer while not forcing every DK into a gap closer build. As well as not removing DK pvp tanks niche.
6
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Chelo✭✭✭✭✭As a vanilla Blazing Shield Templar I'm all too used to my reflect damage being nerfed so I feel you DK bros..
I've discussed this skill many times with many people. I do agree to an extent that it creates some hard countering which is the argument against it mainly. I however don't agree with removing the reflect mechanic or making it too much like crystal shield (I don't support class mirroring in any case for multiple reasons). I don't personally have an issue with wings as it is but I see the the logic in the counterarguments.
To have good build diversity there should be as much counterplay as possible, yet as little hardcounters as possible.
I think the solution to this is to leave wings the same but add the mechanic that it cannot reflect projectiles from less than 8meters.
This would create counterplay for any ranged build to move in closer while not forcing every DK into a gap closer build. As well as not removing DK pvp tanks niche.
Or you can still reflect the projectile, but you also take the dmg and debuffs, basically both DK and Caster get hit...1 -
Steelshiv✭✭✭✭As a magsorc, I know the pain that DKs are feeling related to having a major class skill nerfed.
Even though a lot of my burst gets reflected back at me in PvP when DKs spam wings I still wouldn't call for it's nerf. Cause the shield nerf sucked for me.
#dontnerfthings
#nerfsorcs4 -
Savos_Saren✭✭✭✭✭
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@SteelshivAs a magsorc, I know the pain that DKs are feeling related to having a major class skill nerfed.
Even though a lot of my burst gets reflected back at me in PvP when DKs spam wings I still wouldn't call for it's nerf. Cause the shield nerf sucked for me.
#dontnerfthings
#nerfsorcs
So after the initial knee-jerk nerf that ZOS did and then the reversion/change to the nerf- how do you like your sorc shield? Does it feel stronger than before now that it’s based off mitigation first?Want to enjoy the game more? Try both PvP (crybabies) and PvE (carebears). You'll get a better perspective on everyone's opinion.
PC NA AD
Savos Saren0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Savos_Saren wrote: »
@SteelshivAs a magsorc, I know the pain that DKs are feeling related to having a major class skill nerfed.
Even though a lot of my burst gets reflected back at me in PvP when DKs spam wings I still wouldn't call for it's nerf. Cause the shield nerf sucked for me.
#dontnerfthings
#nerfsorcs
So after the initial knee-jerk nerf that ZOS did and then the reversion/change to the nerf- how do you like your sorc shield? Does it feel stronger than before now that it’s based off mitigation first?
People keep saying "shields are stronger now! OMG ZOS made a mistake!"
Well no sh** they're stronger, we have to invest in health (8-10K more), crit resist, and 24K armor. Just like everyone else in the game. Even with shields down, we're harder to take out, you have mag sorcs with 28K health out there
We used to have better survivability, more bar space, a *lot* more damage, and we didn't depend on pets. I'm ok with the change, it had to happen, the class was broken OP before but now that's hard to argue except for a few busted LOS issues with pets.
Now will someone please fix my magblade?
Edited by Minalan on April 11, 2019 6:45PM4 -
Savos_Saren✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Savos_Saren wrote: »
@SteelshivAs a magsorc, I know the pain that DKs are feeling related to having a major class skill nerfed.
Even though a lot of my burst gets reflected back at me in PvP when DKs spam wings I still wouldn't call for it's nerf. Cause the shield nerf sucked for me.
#dontnerfthings
#nerfsorcs
So after the initial knee-jerk nerf that ZOS did and then the reversion/change to the nerf- how do you like your sorc shield? Does it feel stronger than before now that it’s based off mitigation first?
People keep saying "shields are stronger now! OMG ZOS made a mistake!"
Well no sh** they're stronger, we have to invest in health (8-10K more), crit resist, and 24K armor. Just like everyone else in the game. Even with shields down, we're harder to take out, you have mag sorcs with 28K health out there
We used to have better survivability, more bar space, a *lot* more damage, and we didn't depend on pets. I'm ok with the change, it had to happen, the class was broken OP before but now that's hard to argue except for a few busted LOS issues with pets.
Now will someone please fix my magblade?
I have a feeling that ZOS will do the same thing with the proposed DK wing change.
I still think that Crippling Grasp shouldn’t be reflectable (since it’s ground based).Want to enjoy the game more? Try both PvP (crybabies) and PvE (carebears). You'll get a better perspective on everyone's opinion.
PC NA AD
Savos Saren0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭4 projectiles, 6 seconds is not op. Oh well, give me 50% less damage on all projectiles and my MagDk will still ghost fools.1 -
Steelshiv✭✭✭✭Savos_Saren wrote: »
@SteelshivAs a magsorc, I know the pain that DKs are feeling related to having a major class skill nerfed.
Even though a lot of my burst gets reflected back at me in PvP when DKs spam wings I still wouldn't call for it's nerf. Cause the shield nerf sucked for me.
#dontnerfthings
#nerfsorcs
So after the initial knee-jerk nerf that ZOS did and then the reversion/change to the nerf- how do you like your sorc shield? Does it feel stronger than before now that it’s based off mitigation first?
It's much stronger imo; especially after I switched monster sets. The bigger issue with shields is the duration imo.0 -
Vencenzo✭✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »4 projectiles, 6 seconds is not op. Oh well, give me 50% less damage on all projectiles and my MagDk will still ghost fools.
It's actually a pretty massive buff for my DK tank that's getting hit by x projectiles per second. But it simply becomes another buff to keep up at all times instead of a situational reactionary ability. Reactionary play results in higher skill caps typically.2 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I still think something along the lines of "reflects/deflects all projectiles cast from 12-15 meters or greater for 6 seconds" is a better alternative. Doesn't completely castrate a signature class skill, maintains the original intent of the skill (to protect the DK from ranged attacks, since the DK has nothing else to counter them; flat damage reduction is good, but doesn't protect against stuns and debuffs), and it provides an actual counter for those who are stuck with projectiles (magblade, mainly).1 -
Vencenzo✭✭✭I still think something along the lines of "reflects/deflects all projectiles cast from 12-15 meters or greater for 6 seconds" is a better alternative. Doesn't completely castrate a signature class skill, maintains the original intent of the skill (to protect the DK from ranged attacks, since the DK has nothing else to counter them; flat damage reduction is good, but doesn't protect against stuns and debuffs), and it provides an actual counter for those who are stuck with projectiles (magblade, mainly).
Yep agree %1000 -
Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
✭
yes.As a vanilla Blazing Shield Templar I'm all too used to my reflect damage being nerfed so I feel you DK bros..
I've discussed this skill many times with many people. I do agree to an extent that it creates some hard countering which is the argument against it mainly. I however don't agree with removing the reflect mechanic or making it too much like crystal shield (I don't support class mirroring in any case for multiple reasons). I don't personally have an issue with wings as it is but I see the the logic in the counterarguments.
To have good build diversity there should be as much counterplay as possible, yet as little hardcounters as possible.
I think the solution to this is to leave wings the same but add the mechanic that it cannot reflect projectiles from less than 8meters.
This would create counterplay for any ranged build to move in closer while not forcing every DK into a gap closer build. As well as not removing DK pvp tanks niche.As a vanilla Blazing Shield Templar I'm all too used to my reflect damage being nerfed so I feel you DK bros..
I've discussed this skill many times with many people. I do agree to an extent that it creates some hard countering which is the argument against it mainly. I however don't agree with removing the reflect mechanic or making it too much like crystal shield (I don't support class mirroring in any case for multiple reasons). I don't personally have an issue with wings as it is but I see the the logic in the counterarguments.
To have good build diversity there should be as much counterplay as possible, yet as little hardcounters as possible.
I think the solution to this is to leave wings the same but add the mechanic that it cannot reflect projectiles from less than 8meters.
This would create counterplay for any ranged build to move in closer while not forcing every DK into a gap closer build. As well as not removing DK pvp tanks niche.
Or you can still reflect the projectile, but you also take the dmg and debuffs, basically both DK and Caster get hit...
no.August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber0 -
BNOC✭✭✭✭✭So basically, kite immunity on a root and dot class? This is just a sure fire way to get people into range where DK's become very strong, without the risks.
Magblades etc being mentioned, good luck out damaging a DK or staying out of their constant roots within an 8m radius - Would love to see it.vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)0 -
Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
✭So basically, kite immunity on a root and dot class? This is just a sure fire way to get people into range where DK's become very strong, without the risks.
Magblades etc being mentioned, good luck out damaging a DK or staying out of their constant roots within an 8m radius - Would love to see it.
it already is a kite immunity right now....... remember this isn't a permanent block. there's magicka cost and it only reflects a few.
Any decent sorc can time out their damage when wings is down.August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber0 -
BNOC✭✭✭✭✭So basically, kite immunity on a root and dot class? This is just a sure fire way to get people into range where DK's become very strong, without the risks.
Magblades etc being mentioned, good luck out damaging a DK or staying out of their constant roots within an 8m radius - Would love to see it.
it already is a kite immunity right now....... remember this isn't a permanent block. there's magicka cost and it only reflects a few.
Any decent sorc can time out their damage when wings is down.
Yeah and kite immunity = bad, it’s being changed to not provide kite immunity..
Any decent magdk could keep their wings up at range. A sorc casting 2 abilities probably incurs just as much cost depending on what they use, they just get little benefit, what’s cost got to do with it?
Edited by BNOC on April 15, 2019 4:44PMvMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)0 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭So basically, kite immunity on a root and dot class? This is just a sure fire way to get people into range where DK's become very strong, without the risks.
Magblades etc being mentioned, good luck out damaging a DK or staying out of their constant roots within an 8m radius - Would love to see it.
it already is a kite immunity right now....... remember this isn't a permanent block. there's magicka cost and it only reflects a few.
Any decent sorc can time out their damage when wings is down.
Sure. But any decent Dk isn't gonna let wings go down.
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Neoauspex✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've never played DK (Templar main) but I don't like this change. If you spec completely for ranged combat, which has the inherent advantage of safety at range, there should be hard counters. Everybody should have to either balance their build or choose their battles. This change and the eclipse nerf are gonna lead to more battles where zergs are just plinking at each other from 35m away.1 -
OwnerOfSuccuby✭✭✭All new changes like i see it on pts is normal for dk.
Have some kind of finisher from lash. Remove wings, do not need it anymore. Speed free from psidjick run skill + speed.
Damage metigation - more easy just to burst heal now for me.
If all be like it is now - it is really not bad. But any even little change or nerf and i will cry on forum in each topick again
Do not even test necromancer - not care about him. If it is not overpowered even do not care. If it is hope that it will be balanced.
Only do not like changes in oblivion enchant and that they kill shield breaker.
Like all changes in all clases that i read about. Like new 2 handed revorked skills.
And that NB was balanced a little to all other dd. Do not think that it will be more dk - even with this changes. It is not simple to be melle dd. But changes are really good.0 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Even if the new form of wings is "better," it really neuters the flavor of the skill, imo.
I think there's a lot to be excited about on magDK right now, but I always hate to see iconic class identity/functions get removed because they are tricky to balance.Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭tanks are not suppose to be able kill, DPS is whats spose to kill.
it should be very hard for tanks to kill.
it should be very hard to kill a tank.
you cant have BOTH. if you do, then that would be extreme overpowered, like it is right now with sorcerers. they are way to tank and they have too much damage. thats the description of a BOSS in eso Cave.0 -
Vencenzo✭✭✭I've never played DK (Templar main) but I don't like this change. If you spec completely for ranged combat, which has the inherent advantage of safety at range, there should be hard counters. Everybody should have to either balance their build or choose their battles. This change and the eclipse nerf are gonna lead to more battles where zergs are just plinking at each other from 35m away.
I am concerned about this as well.tanks are not suppose to be able kill, DPS is whats spose to kill.
it should be very hard for tanks to kill.
it should be very hard to kill a tank.
you cant have BOTH. if you do, then that would be extreme overpowered, like it is right now with sorcerers. they are way to tank and they have too much damage. thats the description of a BOSS in eso Cave.
If you think about game balance at face value like this your game will not have build diversity.
Abilities or sets that are universally OP deserve nerfs and hurt diversity as they are always picked as best in slot (like vanilla viper, blinding strikes, old evasion).
Abilities or sets that are situationally OP are actually key to diversity as they provide choices for niche builds. For example if I want to hold a keep door and suck at everything else I would consider swarm mother+plague doctor+batallion.
Nerfs to things like wings, bshield, drose (aka anything that is only good in a very specific scenario) hurt the game and need to stop.0 -
Waylander07✭✭✭✭Everything has a counter or should have, Wings can be countered with things like crushing shock. haunting curse, acid spray and those warden pigeon thingy's all of which instantly come to mind. Even snipe is a problem for DKs because you don't see the first shot coming. As the weakest ranged class in the game the DK needs something to counter range attacks.
When you look at the MDK class in more detail …
Cons
Weakest class ranged attack in the game.
Cant wield high damage rapid combos like sorc or wardens.
Low damage skills compared to other classes, whip being the main attack for most MDKs, outside of that most damage comes from dots which can be easily healed through or purged.
No finisher like most other classes.
No easy escape unlike sorc, nb or even warden.
Pros
Some great stuns and immobilizes, though countered for 10 secs by immovable potions which most players use.
good at blocking second only to templar.
Good dots damage.
Good damage ultimate in dragons leap, unfortunately misses as much as it hits the intended target when in the middle of a battle.
Great heals but probably behind Templar and Warden
And oh yea wings, great skill and our only way of holding our own at range.
I would also like to say that the night blade skill cloak should not be changed as some call for as it is what makes the night blade special. I do think that their ultimate is ridiculously cheap though as it does high damage and they also generate ulti really fast.
This is only my opinion and not meant to be offensive to anyone, it is just what I think. Take it or leave it and have a good day.
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