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Grim Focus, proposed alternatives
Dalsinthus
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The most recent PTS patch notes are out and nightblades were the subject of considerable changes, many of which reduced the damage or utility of their kit. Grim Focus and its morphs were changed significantly, including the removal of minor berserk, removal of minor endurance on the relentless morph, and addition of a close range heal with the spectral bow proc. I believe that this revised skill is quite awkward in its current design. A player has to activate the skill twice, spend resources twice and using 2 GCDs in the process, in order to fire the spectral bow a single time. Initial activation of the skill provides no benefits other than allowing light & heavy attacks to accumulate toward a proc. The heal on this skill is also awkward as it requires the caster to be in melee range for an ability linked to a spectral long distance weapon. This heal is tied to damage and will not provide the on demand healing that is often needed in both pve and pvp (instead one has to repeatedly hit with light attacks, meaning the heal isn't there when needed and is wasted many other times).
I have two alternative suggestions that I think would be make the skill more interesting and desirable while maintaining most of ZOS's changes to the skill.
Option 1: Add a buff to the skill that is available upon activation. I suggest major brutality on the stam morph and major sorcery on the magic morph. These buffs would not be unbalancing IMO, as they are commonly obtained through potions or skills such as rally, surge, armaments, degeneration, etc. In other words this wouldn't lead to a new buff to nightblades that stacked with what most builds are using; it just provides an alternative way of getting brutality/sorcery into a kit. Nightblades can currently get these buffs from their siphoning skill line aoe skill Drain Power and its morphs, but this is also awkward as it requires close range and is an aoe skill and thus sees little use, especially on stam builds. I would remove sorcery and brutality from Drain Power and place it on the Grim Focus morphs. Additionally I would remove the new healing proc from the spectral bow. This gives some benefit to the initial cast that is useful but it is not something that will stack up huge damage numbers as most builds have a way to get brutality/sorcery as it is. Drain Power will likely require addition of a benefit to compensate, perhaps a very minor heal or minor debuff on the enemy to keep the skill in line with its flavor text.
Option 2: Make the skill more like crystal frags where it does not require an initial cast but instead procs when conditions are met (i.e., a certain number of light/heavies). This way nightblades would still slot the skill passively, much like cf on a sorc, but only cast when the proc was available. Again I would probably remove the melee range heal.
If the current changes go to live I think this skill will fall out of use in pvp and possibly pve as well. The options above make the skill a bit more desirable and less awkward.
Edited by Dalsinthus on April 17, 2019 4:05PM I have two alternative suggestions that I think would be make the skill more interesting and desirable while maintaining most of ZOS's changes to the skill.
Option 1: Add a buff to the skill that is available upon activation. I suggest major brutality on the stam morph and major sorcery on the magic morph. These buffs would not be unbalancing IMO, as they are commonly obtained through potions or skills such as rally, surge, armaments, degeneration, etc. In other words this wouldn't lead to a new buff to nightblades that stacked with what most builds are using; it just provides an alternative way of getting brutality/sorcery into a kit. Nightblades can currently get these buffs from their siphoning skill line aoe skill Drain Power and its morphs, but this is also awkward as it requires close range and is an aoe skill and thus sees little use, especially on stam builds. I would remove sorcery and brutality from Drain Power and place it on the Grim Focus morphs. Additionally I would remove the new healing proc from the spectral bow. This gives some benefit to the initial cast that is useful but it is not something that will stack up huge damage numbers as most builds have a way to get brutality/sorcery as it is. Drain Power will likely require addition of a benefit to compensate, perhaps a very minor heal or minor debuff on the enemy to keep the skill in line with its flavor text.
Option 2: Make the skill more like crystal frags where it does not require an initial cast but instead procs when conditions are met (i.e., a certain number of light/heavies). This way nightblades would still slot the skill passively, much like cf on a sorc, but only cast when the proc was available. Again I would probably remove the melee range heal.
If the current changes go to live I think this skill will fall out of use in pvp and possibly pve as well. The options above make the skill a bit more desirable and less awkward.
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Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭While I agree with your diagnosis of the problem, just a quibble: using 'a modest proposal' is generally a flag that what will follow is an over-the-top humorous proposal that isn't meant seriously. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal.
That said, I think your proposals are reasonable and well thought out. Due to that, I doubt we'll see them.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.4 -
Dalsinthus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »While I agree with your diagnosis of the problem, just a quibble: using 'a modest proposal' is generally a flag that what will follow is an over-the-top humorous proposal that isn't meant seriously. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal.
That said, I think your proposals are reasonable and well thought out. Due to that, I doubt we'll see them.
Lol thank you. I didn't know that about the implications of the original title, so I have edited it.0 -
Ectheliontnacil✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭That healing change really was beyond ***. Proves once again that the devs have very limited knowledge of their own game. Class reps failed to prevent this, so I really don't know what purpose they serve.
Good suggestions, but even if they changed merciless to one of the two options, it would still be a huge and unjustified nerf to magblade.
Maybe let mag morph keep the minor berserk or tie it to a really powerful heal over time (upon activation of merciless you are healed over 5s or something and when you fire the bow you get a burst heal, independent of range) to make up for the dark cloak nerf. This would allow magblades to retain some survivability.
But anyways the skill should have been left untouched.Edited by Ectheliontnacil on April 17, 2019 4:18PM1 -
Dalsinthus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ectheliontnacil wrote: »That healing change really was beyond ***. Proves once again that the devs have very limited knowledge of their own game. Class reps failed to prevent this, so I really don't know what purpose they serve.
Good suggestions, but even if they changed merciless to one of the two options, it would still be a huge and unjustified nerf to magblade.
Maybe let mag morph keep the minor berserk or tie it to a really powerful heal over time (upon activation of merciless you are healed over 5s or something and when you fire the bow you get a burst heal, independent of range) to make up for the dark cloak nerf. This would allow magblades to retain some survivability.
But anyways the skill should have been left untouched.
I can't disagree. This was a core skill on my bar for years now and it is coming off when the changes go live. Based on past PTS feedback (e.g., Bosmer stealth nerf), I really doubt that ZOS is going to walk this back. I'm trying to maintain the general direction that ZOS is going with the changes while suggesting some improvements so that the skill won't be so awkward.
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Ectheliontnacil✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Dalsinthus wrote: »Ectheliontnacil wrote: »That healing change really was beyond ***. Proves once again that the devs have very limited knowledge of their own game. Class reps failed to prevent this, so I really don't know what purpose they serve.
Good suggestions, but even if they changed merciless to one of the two options, it would still be a huge and unjustified nerf to magblade.
Maybe let mag morph keep the minor berserk or tie it to a really powerful heal over time (upon activation of merciless you are healed over 5s or something and when you fire the bow you get a burst heal, independent of range) to make up for the dark cloak nerf. This would allow magblades to retain some survivability.
But anyways the skill should have been left untouched.
I can't disagree. This was a core skill on my bar for years now and it is coming off when the changes go live. Based on past PTS feedback (e.g., Bosmer stealth nerf), I really doubt that ZOS is going to walk this back. I'm trying to maintain the general direction that ZOS is going with the changes while suggesting some improvements so that the skill won't be so awkward.
@Dalsinthus
So you're a class rep?
Well I appreciate you giving zos your input. But as you said, if they didn't listen with the Bosmer changes, they probably won't listen now.
Still can't hurt to try.1 -
Dalsinthus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ectheliontnacil wrote: »Dalsinthus wrote: »Ectheliontnacil wrote: »That healing change really was beyond ***. Proves once again that the devs have very limited knowledge of their own game. Class reps failed to prevent this, so I really don't know what purpose they serve.
Good suggestions, but even if they changed merciless to one of the two options, it would still be a huge and unjustified nerf to magblade.
Maybe let mag morph keep the minor berserk or tie it to a really powerful heal over time (upon activation of merciless you are healed over 5s or something and when you fire the bow you get a burst heal, independent of range) to make up for the dark cloak nerf. This would allow magblades to retain some survivability.
But anyways the skill should have been left untouched.
I can't disagree. This was a core skill on my bar for years now and it is coming off when the changes go live. Based on past PTS feedback (e.g., Bosmer stealth nerf), I really doubt that ZOS is going to walk this back. I'm trying to maintain the general direction that ZOS is going with the changes while suggesting some improvements so that the skill won't be so awkward.
@Dalsinthus
So you're a class rep?
Well I appreciate you giving zos your input. But as you said, if they didn't listen with the Bosmer changes, they probably won't listen now.
Still can't hurt to try.
I wish I was a class rep but I am not. And yes, I'm hopeful they will make some adjustments here but it may be a long shot.0 -
Dalsinthus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dalsinthus wrote: »Option 2: Make the skill more like crystal frags where it does not require an initial cast but instead procs when conditions are met (i.e., a certain number of light/heavies). This way nightblades would still slot the skill passively, much like cf on a sorc, but only cast when the proc was available. Again I would probably remove the melee range heal.
I've been watching other threads and my ideas weren't that original. Others posted similar comments to both of my options before I did. One criticism that I'm seeing of this second option is that you don't gain stacks when you're on your backbar. I'm totally fine with that (I don't mind this issue with my sorc and frags) but YMMV.
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Nemesis7884✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭why not give nb major savagery / prophecy for x seconds when they activate grim / relentless... that would fit1 -
Dalsinthus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »why not give nb major savagery / prophecy for x seconds when they activate grim / relentless... that would fit
I'm pretty open minded about the buff they receive, but is there much precedent for that? Wardens get it through the lotus skill and DKs through Flames of Oblivion, but I can't think of other classes getting this. Brutality and Sorcery are more common buffs for class skill lines, with savagery and prophecy coming from guild skill lines in mage light and expert hunter. As I think about it, this does fit the NB class design and could be a nice benefit. Good idea. I like this.Edited by Dalsinthus on April 17, 2019 6:48PM0 -
Nemesis7884✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dalsinthus wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »why not give nb major savagery / prophecy for x seconds when they activate grim / relentless... that would fit
I'm pretty open minded about the buff they receive, but is there much precedent for that? Wardens get it through the lotus skill and DKs through Flames of Oblivion, but I can't think of other classes getting this. Brutality and Sorcery are more common buffs for class skill lines, with savagery and prophecy coming from guild skill lines in mage light and expert hunter. As I think about it, this does fit the NB class design and could be a nice benefit. Good idea. I like this.
it makes class-theme-wise sense but also skill-theme wise - your crit chance gets increased because of heightened focus0 -
I agree with your criticism, and think your suggestion is very smart.
They can remove the Minor Berserk, and add Major Brutality. This will result in an overall nerf to the skill (as players will get Major Brutality one way or another since it's a must, unlike Minor Berserk) while creating more skill and gear diversity.
Now, players will not be forced into using 2H weapon for Rally, as they will have Grim Focus as an alternative.
This opens up cool new builds, like dw/bow (which feels much more like an assassin, unlike using a huge ass 2h sword), or maybe even 1h and shield...
I really hope ZoS will consider this suggestion, as it seems like a very good step.
Lowering the dmg, while creating diversity.Edited by TheShadower92 on April 18, 2019 12:04AM1 -
Raudgrani✭✭✭✭✭
✭Keep Minor Berserk for both morphs. Remove the arrow for stamina morph if you feel an overwhelming need to nerf this skill in any way. This is the signature skill of NB's, it's depressing, upsetting and tiresome to see this even being suggested.0 -
Raudgrani✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheShadower92 wrote: »I agree with your criticism, and think your suggestion is very smart.
They can remove the Minor Berserk, and add Major Brutality. This will result in an overall nerf to the skill (as players will get Major Brutality one way or another since it's a must, unlike Minor Berserk) while creating more skill and gear diversity.
Now, players will not be forced into using 2H weapon for Rally, as they will have Grim Focus as an alternative.
This opens up cool new builds, like dw/bow (which feels much more like an assassin, unlike using a huge ass 2h sword), or maybe even 1h and shield...
I really hope ZoS will consider this suggestion, as it seems like a very good step.
Lowering the dmg, while creating diversity.
Leaving a BUFF in the game unique to one monster set and ONE class, is not a good way to increase diversity. Either remove Minor Berserk from Wardens too, or keep it for both. Both classes at large are for burst damage, forcing NB's into melee brawler builds is not a good way to increase diversity. Literally removing magblades from PVP, is not a good way to increase build diversity.0 -
Ectheliontnacil✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thing is: the major fracture removal is pretty brutal already. Stamblades will go from having 100% uptime on one of the most powerful debuffs to having absolutely nothing. The 5% armour reduction IF attacking from the side/behind is absolutely insignificant.
This is talking about pvp ofc. In pve fracture is useless.
So why don't they see how this change will affect nbs in pvp, before coming in with another major nerf?
Besides magblades were the underdog already, so the mana morphs and dark cloak should have been left untouched anyways.3 -
macsmooth✭✭✭✭Dalsinthus wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »why not give nb major savagery / prophecy for x seconds when they activate grim / relentless... that would fit
I'm pretty open minded about the buff they receive, but is there much precedent for that? Wardens get it through the lotus skill and DKs through Flames of Oblivion, but I can't think of other classes getting this. Brutality and Sorcery are more common buffs for class skill lines, with savagery and prophecy coming from guild skill lines in mage light and expert hunter. As I think about it, this does fit the NB class design and could be a nice benefit. Good idea. I like this.
The only thing I would think about is that for a stamblade it’s not bad option but you would loose the weapon damage passive from fighters guild if you had expert hunter slotted which is rare I know so stamblade it wouldn’t be a bad thing and I think they removed endurance buff from grim to force more pot usage play style
For magblade you would loose 7% mag from having inner light and passive if you run that skill instead of pots which would I guess mean that inner light and grim would be interchangeable with each other on the bar one for more mag one for more crit with assassination passives depending on how you want to build as a magblade
Ok it’s a not a bad idea now I typed all that out and I like op suggestions as well1 -
InvictusApollo✭✭✭✭✭
✭The range limit on heal is stupid. What about all ranged magblades? They exist. I have one. And I don't think I'm going to play it after the nerf.
The "burst heal" is also very bad. It gives 2k healing once in five seconds. I can get that from 2 seconds of Rapid Regeneration and I don't have to waste a turn to activate it.2 -
Dalsinthus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ectheliontnacil wrote: »Thing is: the major fracture removal is pretty brutal already. Stamblades will go from having 100% uptime on one of the most powerful debuffs to having absolutely nothing. The 5% armour reduction IF attacking from the side/behind is absolutely insignificant.
This is talking about pvp ofc. In pve fracture is useless.
So why don't they see how this change will affect nbs in pvp, before coming in with another major nerf?
Besides magblades were the underdog already, so the mana morphs and dark cloak should have been left untouched anyways.
I think it shifts the Cyrodiil meta even more in the direction of super tanky, high heal builds. NBs are not great for group play on live, but they at least had a niche of taking out priority targets. With these nerfs I think they will struggle in that role so we'll just see more templars, dks, and wardens in heavy. Fracture + defile was super helpful for taking down that heavy armor s&b templar healer. Good luck with that next patch.
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Jowrik✭✭✭Keep Minor Berserk for both morphs. Remove the arrow for stamina morph if you feel an overwhelming need to nerf this skill in any way. This is the signature skill of NB's, it's depressing, upsetting and tiresome to see this even being suggested.
As a Bow only player, this is the last thing I'd like to see. Not everyone plays melee...
The changing of this skill basically ruined Nightblade bow users. I can just spam snipe more instead of using this and DPS is higher.Nightblade - Khajiit - Rha'Viir
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