kmcaj wrote: »

45k @ 330 ping is pathetic. If not able to pull 70k+ just quit.

LOL I do always like comments like this one.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Its a video game. Games are entertainment. Entertainment shouldnt be about work.

I miss Mass Effect 3 multiplayer. It was only cooperative and the only aspects to progress yourself were weapons and a minimal passive buff system. That game was NEVER toxic, vets never got on your butt about being on a low level character. I know there's a big difference between a horde mode shooter and an mmorpg, but the principle is there.

We're here to have fun, not do a job. Maybe the game should somehow encourage new players to use their skills and learn a rotation through hints and gameplay, maybe create like a Tutorial Dungeon.

Most hilarious is that new (vet) content is created with expectations that those exploits will be perfectly used. I mean it's not normal when sword swing is cancelled at the very beginning, arrow shoots without bowstring pulled, and rain of arrows is cast without bow shooting animation at all. Meanwhile all the content starting from Horns of the reach is created with point that dps MUST use this.
I'm not against weaving and reasonable cancelling, but in ESO it just looks bewildering to anybody who is not used to that. So no wonder that majority of "casual" players can't don't do this. They didn't even think that you may MUST bar swap cancel endless hail if you want complete that new veteran dungeon or trial.

Weaving is promoted in-game. Animations are superfluous anyway, as Instant cast abilities have already calculated damage before the animation plays.

Stop spreading misinformation, and stop blaming your poor performance on it as if your damage would shoot up to 50k if you used weaving and bar-swap animation cancels.

Oh my, another one for ignore list. I use all this cancelling even when doing quests, because it's like second nature now. This has nothing to do with anybody's performance, if you wanna talk about real player skill go play Starcraft (4-8 buttons per second on competitive level) or any competitive FPS. In ESO it's just that there are people who care about builds and dps (like me and you) and there are ton of people who don't even know that weaving and canceling exists, those "low-dps potato /zerglings". And if you put yourself above those people.. well, you are competing with people who doesn't even know that competition exists.
I don't mean that people who do 70k with raid buffs under mechanics or perform bursts in PVP without errors are not skilled - they are skilled. But to press bar swap button just after skill button - there is no any skill in that, it's just exploit about which majority of player's don't even know.

Lmao! “No skill in that”....

If there isnt any skill needed, then why can’t everyone perform as well as the top tier players and groups...?

Runefang wrote: »

Kreshja wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Soul19reaper wrote: »

TriangularChicken wrote: »

A informative video revealing the truth behind playing a damage dealer in ESO:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=bibM3j6KHR0&t=5s
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bibM3j6KHR0&t=5s"]https://youtube.com/watch?v=bibM3j6KHR0&t=5s

May I quote one of the comments under the video:
"It’s one of those hard pills to swallow for many players. The thing is the moment you realize you are bad and aren’t performing your role adequately is the moment you can actually start getting good. It’s literally the turning point we all faced at some point in our time playing eso."

CP and gear obviously are factors for high dps, but experience and good rotation are way more important.
Excuses like "I don't have time to practice on a target dummy" are ridiculous. It's the same principle as in real life, you do not get anything for free, so work for it.

OH another one that dosent include latency show me those elite numbers at 400 ping then I'll love to agree with you.

400 ping is no barrier to 40k+ dps. I can pull 45k+ at 330 ping.

I've been trying to improve my parse and have trouble to improve my light attack weave. At first I thought it might be a ping/fps issue but since I changed to ethernet my fps is usually 60+ and pings around 100. Still, sometimes the light attacks don't get fired or the animation will appear but the fire ball won't fly out, or worst it will get stuck and become an uncontrollable fully charged heavy attack although I'm not holding left mouse key, and cannot cancel it by pressing skill but have to block or bash. Also, with automatic AOE cast on, it will still take almost 0.5 second for aoes like endless hail or liquid lightening to be cast compared to the faster weaving guys.

I then noticed that the speed of skill animation from the youtubers is so much faster than my characters. Their characters move like robots. I also notice from the high parse vids of console guys that their characters move even faster. Even if I animation cancel a skill at the same moment that they are, the amount of time to perform the portion of the skill before it is canceled is much longer on my characters compared to them. Animation cancel shouldn't make a skill's animation faster but it just interrupts a skill's animation by light attack right? Due to this difference, the buff to petsorc is such a good thing because the pets' dps are self-reliable and petsorc is the highest dps character for me.

Try this addon: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2322-GlobalCooldownGCDBar.html

It's helped me a lot. It adds a bar that shows when another a skill can be used. I pay a lot less attention to animations now and watch the bar instead, relying on it for when I need to press my next skill button. I realised I could weave skills much quicker than I thought I could and my dps increased by 2-3k from that alone. There is still a lot of room for improvement though, I'm hitting 0.86 LAs per/s, up from 0.8 but the goal is to get over 0.9 per/s.

Some skills are still slower to use (Endless Hail is one of the worst) but you get used to that.

Also this addon is great: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2048-LightAttackHelper.html

The only thing you can't help is lag spikes, they'll really slow your dps no matter what your ping is.

I also get the bug you mention where an attack becomes a heavy attack that you can't control, not often and mostly in trials where everything is just laggier. I don't know how to help that unfortunately.

wow I just tried GCD and it improved my magplar parse for 4k already! finally breaking the 40k threshold. thanks for the suggestion!

I used to spend a lot of my time in the game helping players that were complaining about their low DPS or not being able to finish vMA etc. Complaints like that happen frequently in my trade/social guilds so I would just offer to help them. Most of them were genuinely happy about receiving help and within like an hour after sorting out their build problems and rotation DPS would usually be somewhat reasonable. At that point all they would need to do would be to just sticking to the practice I suggested. Maybe 2 out of a 30 people would actually bother to stick to it while other's would go back to complaining. For me it mostly felt like I am wasting my time. I've also encountered quite a lot of people who got angry at the question "Do you want me to help you?". All of this has made me stop caring for randoms. If somebody asks me for help I will help them to the best of my ability, but if I see they don't have the right attitude I won't be wasting my time.

You can see the attitude of people in many of these posts here.

What people fail to understand is that many of us more experienced players DO want for people to get better at the game. We DO want people to clear vet content and we DO want more people in endgame dungeons/trials to play with. It's genuinely nice to see someone improve and eventually get their first vMA clear, first vet trial clear, first HM clear.

Asian is making content to help people. Hes answering questions on most of his videos, on discords and even in game. But you can see how defensive people get in this thread. We are all elitists apparently.


ZoS can clearly do a better job at educating their players. If the addon action duration reminder was basegame for example a lot more people would bother to learn to keep their dots/buffs up. Then something that helps them with weaving as well.
Like some people pointed out, many players simply do not know what can even be done. They have never played an mmo before or never cared. It's not a clear concept for everyone right away.

Kel wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels good about carrying players?
It's such a ego boost and a confirmation in my own understanding of my rotation and class when I can just come in and blast stuff to the nine hell's and back.
It's not even competitive...I WANT to kill all the things before my DD counterpart even gets the chance to touch his buttons...
I'm focused on my own play...not others.
I'll be glad to carry...all day, every day.

This kind of "problem" only really matters in vet score run trials...outside of that, who cares? There's no content (outside of vet trials) that can't be beat with a max of 20/30k dps. Wanting everyone to push 50/60k is nothing but overkill.

The MMO Problem is this....too many people worried about what other people do.

Edit: And before the "wasted time" lame excuses are used, if everyone stays alive (and I know some big number dps players who absolutely CANNOT) you're taking about an extra minute or two to kill a boss with a low dps player. If you dont have a extra minute or two to spare, maybe playing a MMO isn't a good choice for your hobby time...

This. People cry about their time being wasted like they have a nuclear Holocaust to prevent. You are playing a game, play another five minutes.

Tigerseye wrote: »

Nah, the "truth" about DPSing in ESO, is that it's a Mickey Mouse game, with weird, unintended consequences, which apparently stemmed from really bad design choices, that were then "embraced".

Rather than being fixed, as they should have been.

Not to mention all the lag, which means a lot of your key pressing doesn't even register, or registers way too late.

Yes, you could spend ages trying to perfect a very strange rotation, full of key presses that shouldn't have to happen and others that don't do anything, or do it way too late.

Or, you could just realise that becoming very good, at something that is very badly designed, is not necessarily a good thing...

Was going to leave a comment along the same lines but you have summed it up nicely. At least with tanking and healing it is pretty easy to figure out what to do just from playing the game. All the weird undocumented interactions between different skills, passives, sets and buffs just ends up too much work for most people. At least with shooter games like Fortnite or action RPG games like Borderlands you get instant feedback when a tactic isn't working and you can learn to get better just by playing the game. The whole idea of having to practice on a target dummy and study parses using a third party addon seems a little perverse at times.

edit: missing words

VaranisArano wrote: »

"That moment when you realize you aren't as good as you think you are and realize how much you still have to improve..."

That applies to a LOT more that just ESO.

Including the individual who created the video. Unfortunately, he's so far down the Dunning-Kreuger scale, he's beyond help.

Hi video creator here. Wanted to address some of the points brought up in this thread.

OwnerOfSuccuby wrote: »

Good player and good dd is not about damage at all. I can say more. Thise who just dps target can not pkay good. They just skip mechanics with no real action.

...

Trully good game for dd is when you can survive, make and know all tacticks, can make all by your self. Tank is dead - run with boss. Or resurect your oarty member.

While this is true that doing high DPS is not the sole requirement for being a good DPS, it is definitely one very important component. As other people have brought up, mechanics can be taught in a group setting. Doing high DPS can be aided with the help of other people, but it largely falls on you to do it yourself.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Most hilarious is that new (vet) content is created with expectations that those exploits will be perfectly used. I mean it's not normal when sword swing is cancelled at the very beginning, arrow shoots without bowstring pulled, and rain of arrows is cast without bow shooting animation at all. Meanwhile all the content starting from Horns of the reach is created with point that dps MUST use this.
I'm not against weaving and reasonable cancelling, but in ESO it just looks bewildering to anybody who is not used to that. So no wonder that majority of "casual" players can't don't do this. They didn't even think that you may MUST bar swap cancel endless hail if you want complete that new veteran dungeon or trial.

Weaving and animation cancelling via blocking or bar swapping is not an exploit. It has been accepted and promoted by the devs. It is not very clearly stated in the game at all (there's only one tip when you hit like level 30-something), but it is not an exploit. Please do not spread this misinformation.

kylewwefan wrote: »

I just got another character the Flawless Conqueror title. Afterwards, decided to whoop up on a dummy in the exact setup. Hit a whopping 26k DPS.

Not a pet Sorc. Not a WW. Not some cheese build.

This character is a flawless conqueror and I can’t get into a trial group with it.

vMA builds are very different than trial guilds. One is focused on just yourself, the other takes into consideration other group buffs. You cannot use your performance in vMA as a proxy for group DPS performance. Flawless Conqueror is also not quite as hard to get as it once was, and can easily be cheesed by using builds centered on survivability while sacrificing some DPS (vMA has no true hard DPS check).

Soul19reaper wrote: »

OH another one that dosent include latency show me those elite numbers at 400 ping then I'll love to agree with you.

I used to have higher ping, around 300 to 350 ping in raids. I still performed at a high enough level to DPS vAS HM and other end-game trials. As long as the high ping is consistent, you can get around it.

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

target dummies dont hit back, they dont drain resources, they dont one shot you, dont apply fracture or maim, they dont poison or defile, free dps is not a gauge of how good a player is it just means they can hit a static bag for 60secs filling every skill slot with dps skills and popping spell or weapon damage boosters, swapping their cp around to maximise hitting static target. i would rather have someone who can A) stay alive long enough to be useful know the mechanics of the trial/dungeon, to many times i have been in trials/dungeons where the "50k+" dps is the one getting picked up off the floor every 2mins, a dead DD has no DPS and stops someone else doing DPS while they have to res

Dummies are used for two purposes: practicing and mastering a rotation, and to demonstrate your ceiling for DPS. It's easier to learn mechanics of a fight and acquire raid awareness when you don't need to think about your DPS. In my experience, it is easier to teach a high DPS how to become more raid aware than it is to teach a raid aware DPS how to do high DPS. I can help with the former, while the latter is in the hands of that individuals.

Pevey wrote: »

But the video is not even about good dps. It is about 15k dps.

The idea behind that parse is to show that on a CP160 character, using easily obtainable gear, you can do adequate amount of DPS to do vet dungeons. The idea is to show that using something like gear or CP as an excuse for low DPS is, to me, a lazy and lame excuse to cover up for the lack of rotation training.

Grianasteri wrote: »

According to the vid, the difference between mid cp and max, will be in the region of 10 - 15%, or perhaps about 4k dps. To me, that is huge.

We can also consider the difference between 160 CP and max CP. Its fair to say that will be even greater, in excess of 15%. To me, thats massive.

Add to this the difference between purple and gold gear, the vid advised around 500 dps. So even more of a difference between blue and gold, 1000 dps? Green to gold, 1500 dps? More? Huge numbers of average/casual players will still have plenty of blue and/or green gear.

So, what does this all mean. It means that contrary to one of the vids central claims, that high dps is NOT the preserve of the top 1%, it kinda is. Not just anyone can rock out 40k+ dps. Not just anyone can obtain best in slot gear, not just anyone can gold their gear, not just anyone can sustain a fast efficient rotation. These ARE the preserve of the top 10% ish of players, give or take, the actual % is unimportant.

Take that average player, put them in best in slot, gold gear, at max cp and give them a decent rotation, and we are talking about what? 10k dps improvement? At least?

The difference in DPS from CP160 to CP810 right now is probably in the range of a 35 to 40 percent increase. If you're doing 15k DPS like I was in the video, then this will translate into a 20k to 21k parse instead, just from allocating my CP. The difference between purple and gold gear is around 500 DPS for armor. For weapons, it is far more noticeable, roughly 2k to 3k or even higher. If the average player worked on rotation and got some good gear, at max CP, you can easily hit around 40k on a heavy attack magsorc build, which is one of the easiest builds to create and use. This is enough to clear pretty much everything in the game. At higher levels of play, you can likely hit around 50k+ solo on an optimized magsorc heavy attack build.

There is a lot that goes into DPS, and just slapping on the best gear and golding everything out is not going to fix the primary contributor to bad DPS: bad rotation.

starkerealm wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"That moment when you realize you aren't as good as you think you are and realize how much you still have to improve..."

That applies to a LOT more that just ESO.

Including the individual who created the video. Unfortunately, he's so far down the Dunning-Kreuger scale, he's beyond help.

Just wanted to note here that there is no "Dunning-Keurger scale". It is just an effect, which states the psychological phenomena that people that do not have expertise in the subject lack the knowledge required to know that they lack expertise in the subject, and thus believe they perform better than they actual do.

So not only are you referring to something that doesn't exist, but you're also using it in an entirely incorrect manner. Talk about irony.

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Just wanted to note here that there is no "Dunning-Keurger scale".

I understand this is confusing for you, so I'll give you a link, so you can keep up.

This is, in very simple terms, a direct correlation between an individual's understanding of a subject, and their ability to self-critique their work in that field.

Your aptitude for math and pressing buttons on a calculator is an excellent example of this.

SirAndy wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Damn that video was cringe worthy. Started out painful and then got worse ...

This smells like everything i don't agree with is cringeworthy.
Didn't see anything that was objectively cringe in the video.

mairwen85 wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Damn that video was cringe worthy. Started out painful and then got worse ...

I thought it was an open, plain talk, honest video. There was nothing remotely cringe about it.

Apparently my cringiness threshold is much lower than most. I consider that a good thing ...

I mean, we are, literally talking a guy who thought maintaining 5 stacks on Siroria in a vet trial was good enough to make it the best pick. I can go dig up the exact quote if you want.

T3hasiangod wrote: »

A correlation is not the same thing as a scale.

In this case, yeah, actually, it is.

You're only thinking of the mathematical definition of the term. Which would be a little bit like you arguing, "no, it doesn't have scales, it's not a fish." As we both know, fish have scales, but the word has more than one meaning.

A scale can be a progression of ordered data points. Saying it needs to have officially designated categories is a bit like arguing that Dunning-Kruger cannot be used to assess the physical weight of something.

Which, kinda feeds back to where this started.

I mean, if you prefer, we could call it, "a continuum," or, "a spectrum." Though, personally, I'd recommend against the latter, because that has developed some unfortunate connotations of late.

T3hasiangod wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

A correlation is not the same thing as a scale.

In this case, yeah, actually, it is.

You're only thinking of the mathematical definition of the term. Which would be a little bit like you arguing, "no, it doesn't have scales, it's not a fish." As we both know, fish have scales, but the word has more than one meaning.

A scale can be a progression of ordered data points. Saying it needs to have officially designated categories is a bit like arguing that Dunning-Kruger cannot be used to assess the physical weight of something.

Which, kinda feeds back to where this started.

I mean, if you prefer, we could call it, "a continuum," or, "a spectrum." Though, personally, I'd recommend against the latter, because that has developed some unfortunate connotations of late.

No psychologist would call Dunning-Kreuger a "spectrum" or "continuum".

Re-read your link. It is a term used to describe a cognitive bias. A bias cannot be on a continuum. You're either biased or you are not. It either exists or it does not. This is the psychological definition of the term, not the mathematical. The term does not describe a continuum of beliefs. It does not describe a spectrum of effects. You either possess the bias or you do not possess the bias.

This may come as a shock to you, but, people rarely lock into boolean values. In understand that it can be more comfortable to view everything as black and white, but the real world has a nasty habit of offering intermediate shades, and scatterpoint graphs.