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Discussion: How do you feel about paying for NOT playing the game ? -> skyshard unlocks in CS
Elsterchen
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Hi everyone,
I must admid I have problems with Zenis decision to add skyshard unlocks on alts. Its not a plain P2W thing, but it leaves me feeling extremely uncomfortable as in my view skyshards are necessary to build a char ... and collecting them is quite an experience in game. However, while I feel uncomfortable at the thought I necro-ed some old threads (yeah, you surely don't need a class for THAT!
)
For those that may not know it: this is how the crown store was introduced:
btw reading the players suggestions and wishes at that time, is indeed very informative, too...Feel free to have a glimpse:
With all this said, ... I still don't feel good about this change, but maybe its because I don't get the keylinings. So, if you have some time to spare and thoughts to share I would really like some more views on this topic.
PS @turelius
With the release of Elsweyr information we now know that players will be able to buy Skyshard SP unlocks on their alt characters.
The way this works is if a player has already unlocked an achievement on one character for a zones Skyshards they will be able to unlock those Skyshards (and SP) on new characters they make via a Crown Store purchase.
1) Now, do you feel these new Crown Store Consumables are designed to be an easily-accessible way to minimize down time? (please elaborate)
2) Do you think they are not designed to give anyone an unfair combat advantage? (please elaborate)
3) Do you think the "but never better than"-argument should apply for these new consumables? (please elaborate)
4) Do you have any further remarks/fears/wishes/hopes/letdowns you like to share regarding the topic?
Please discuss.
I must admid I have problems with Zenis decision to add skyshard unlocks on alts. Its not a plain P2W thing, but it leaves me feeling extremely uncomfortable as in my view skyshards are necessary to build a char ... and collecting them is quite an experience in game. However, while I feel uncomfortable at the thought I necro-ed some old threads (yeah, you surely don't need a class for THAT!
)For those that may not know it: this is how the crown store was introduced:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157719/patch-notes-v2-0-1
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »BIG CHANGES / UPDATES / NEW FEATURES
Crown Store
We are happy to introduce the Crown Store: an in-game store where you can buy customization and convenience items. To access the Crown Store, log into the game and press “,”.
Note that the Crown Store is not available from the character select screen.
You can use the items in the store to save some time, as well as customize your look with exotic pets, costumes, and mounts.
Items within the Crown Store can be previewed by hovering over the target item and pressing R.
To purchase an item, hover your mouse over the desired item and press E. You will need to confirm the purchase at the subsequent window.
Upon confirmation, crowns will be removed from your account and the item will be made accessible to you.
Items purchased from the Crown Store are non-refundable.
There are a variety of offerings that you can purchase now:
Pets
Pets cannot be traded or sold to others.
Once purchased, pets will become available in the Collections UI for all characters on your account to access.
Mounts
Mounts cannot be traded or sold to others.
Once purchased, mounts will become available in the Collections UI for all characters on your account to access.
Costumes
Once purchased, costumes will become available in the Collections UI for all characters on your account to access.
Costumes will only alter your appearance; your stats will remain unchanged.
Some special costumes, called polymorphs, will also be available. These are costumes that change your entire appearance, including your character’s model.
Costumes cannot be traded or sold to others.
Consumables
Consumables are items managed in your inventory that can be used in the same manner as current consumables. They can be right clicked, double-clicked, or loaded into a quick slot.
Crown Store Consumables cannot be traded or sold to others, and cannot be deleted without confirmation. They can, however, be moved to other characters on your account via the account bank.
Crown Store Consumables are designed to be an easily-accessible way to minimize down time. They are not designed to give anyone an unfair combat advantage.
Specific Crown Store Consumables are as follows:
Crown Repair Kits: These kits allow you to repair all currently-equipped items with a single use.
Crown Potions: These can be used at any level, and the strength is equivalent to your level. These are slightly better than potions that are dropped from monsters or purchased from a vendor, but never better than a crafted potion.
Crown Soul Gem: These can be used at any level on another player character of any level. When used to charge a weapon enchant, the enchantment becomes fully charged.
Bundles
Bundles are a collection of offerings through a single purchase.
The bundle will have each offering represented as an icon allowing you to preview it by hovering your mouse over the icon.
When attempting to purchase a bundle containing something you already own, you will be warned and prompted for confirmation, but are not prevented from purchasing the bundle.
btw reading the players suggestions and wishes at that time, is indeed very informative, too...Feel free to have a glimpse:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/146991/crown-store-item-wish-list/p1
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hello everyone!
As part of Update 6, we are introducing the Crown Store: an in-game store where you can purchase customization and convenience items. The store offers consumables you can use to save time on in-game activities (like experience and crafting boosters, for example) along with new customization options including costumes, exotic pets, and mounts. When the Crown Store launches, we’ll have a number of items available immediately, but what about the future? Tell us what sorts of goods and services you would like to see offered in the Crown Store – you can be as general or specific as you’d like.
You can view some of the planned Crown Store items at the following link, beginning at 23:59 http://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/3711373
We look forward to reading your ideas and feedback!
With all this said, ... I still don't feel good about this change, but maybe its because I don't get the keylinings. So, if you have some time to spare and thoughts to share I would really like some more views on this topic.
PS @turelius
Yes, I copy pasted, guilty in that regard. But I am not interested in a p2w debate. I try to figure if we may expect payed experience point bundles in a few weeks (for alts of maxed CP chars only... ofc. ) And I am really interested how people feel about paying for NOT playing the game (even if its the 2nd or ... 16th time of RPG content). I know you understand and here is the reference to your article:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/465524/is-buying-skyshard-sp-pay-to-win/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/465524/is-buying-skyshard-sp-pay-to-win/p1
With the release of Elsweyr information we now know that players will be able to buy Skyshard SP unlocks on their alt characters.
The way this works is if a player has already unlocked an achievement on one character for a zones Skyshards they will be able to unlock those Skyshards (and SP) on new characters they make via a Crown Store purchase.
1) Now, do you feel these new Crown Store Consumables are designed to be an easily-accessible way to minimize down time? (please elaborate)
2) Do you think they are not designed to give anyone an unfair combat advantage? (please elaborate)
3) Do you think the "but never better than"-argument should apply for these new consumables? (please elaborate)
4) Do you have any further remarks/fears/wishes/hopes/letdowns you like to share regarding the topic?
Please discuss.
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Peekachu99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is the same as we see in any long term MMO. Invested players are tired of doing the exact same theme park run when end-game is where most of the activity occurs. So yes, we can expect “Max CP” bundles, “Mages Guild Unlock” (can’t WAIT for that one myself) and whatnot down the line. Keep in mind, this isn’t just for veteran players, but for newer players who want to catch up with a game that’s been going for 5+ years.
Queue the slippery slope arguments.
Keep in mind, there is no inherent P2W advantage since all of these things can be acquired in the game via time.4 -
Commancho✭✭✭✭✭I think everything should be account shared for free: from skyshards to researches, crafting motifs, furnishing plans, horse riding, achievements etc. Otherwise it leads to boring grind or it's our limiting experience - something which this game doesn't need at all. It's because this game is so huge that there is always something to do. Usually games which force us to grind are trying to cover a fact that their gameplay is very shallow, but in this case it's just a developers mistake. There is enaugh grind when you have to gear up and level up your character and adding more to this is just making things worse to the point where you skip quest dialogues because you have to still do crafting writs, play random normal, farm some mats, check your guildstore, level up one of your characters in Mages Guild skillline for 10th time etc.6
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Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I honestly don't care. While skyshard hunting is incredibly boring, it's not difficult. If you can pay for the convenience of skipping that part I don't mind4 -
Colecovision✭✭✭✭✭
✭If there is any tiny part of a player that struggles to get skyshards, they are going to lose for sure once they get them. It's just a point and click time suck. There are 4 skyshards you can argue are more, but that's it. No p2w
This game doesn't do a good job of tying gameplay to progression. I've leveled more skills crafting than anything and then play fetch to add the points. Then I leveled 2 handed on a new character last month, by reading a book to open the line and slotting skills as I played DW. I was at level 50 with all passives and morphs before equipping a 2h weapon. There simply isn't a connection to actual gameplay.
Playing fetch for progression is a bad gaming experience after a few times. It's boring and slow. ZoS agrees so much that they asked themselves the question, is it $10 bad, $50 bad? I fear hundreds.
My question is, why isn't buying the game, 2 chapters and subbing enough for them to simply give me the best game they can? They know it sucks. They should fix it for everyone. This version really feels like they are saying be a whale or gtfo. My couple hundred invested and my wifes couple hundred invested are just trash to them. It's $110 for the two of us to get the next chapter and sub for that month. It seems reasonable for them to include the good version and unreasonable for me to hit purchase if they won't.1 -
Danikat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It doesn't bother me that other people will use it, but for me it's pointless. Like you said it's paying to not play the game, which doesn't appeal to me at all.
I am now expecting a game to, sooner or later, come out with a paid equivalent of the "There can be only one" cheat from Warcraft 2 - buy an item, use it and you skip straight to the final cut scene for winning the game. Then you're back at the start menu. You've "won" but you also haven't actually achieved anything.PC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
"Remember in this game we call life that no one said it's fair"1 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Peekachu99 and @Commancho ty for sharing your thoughts, I gather you have started some time after launch and as someone who has been around since beta I can tell you: I know exactly 1 (in words: ONE) person that has done everything in eso already (there is a post about that on the forum, look for it if you don#t believe me).
So, in this Eso is very different from all other MMOs -> there is nothing to chase after !
CP 300 is the max you need to enjoy each and every aspect of the game (not CP 810 ... or whatever the max CP is currently (sry lost track since I can't spend my CPs anymore)) and catch up mechanics do make it really easy to get there.
With this in mind, and the fact that I myself would enjoy CS-unlocks of trials and/or dungeons for my alts (including gear and weapons of lower quality ... ofc), do you really feel comfortable with the option to pay for not actively playing content ?
Thats what is starting here, imo ... and thats why I asked all the questions above.0 -
Peekachu99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »@Peekachu99 and @Commancho ty for sharing your thoughts, I gather you have started some time after launch and as someone who has been around since beta I can tell you: I know exactly 1 (in words: ONE) person that has done everything in eso already (there is a post about that on the forum, look for it if you don#t believe me).
So, in this Eso is very different from all other MMOs -> there is nothing to chase after !
CP 300 is the max you need to enjoy each and every aspect of the game (not CP 810 ... or whatever the max CP is currently (sry lost track since I can't spend my CPs anymore)) and catch up mechanics do make it really easy to get there.
With this in mind, and the fact that I myself would enjoy CS-unlocks of trials and/or dungeons for my alts (including gear and weapons of lower quality ... ofc), do you really feel comfortable with the option to pay for not actively playing content ?
Thats what is starting here, imo ... and thats why I asked all the questions above.
What? I’ve been here since the beta and play on two platforms with CP 1000+ accounts. Some really pompous and presumptuous statements you’re making. I don’t need an explanation of “MMOs” thanks. I’ve played them all since MUDs.
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Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »
Without skill points your character is useless. Sure you get them as you level, but there's not enough for Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Psijic, Undaunted, alchemy, class skill lines, Vampire/Werewolf (if applicable), Racials, etc.5 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Elsterchen wrote: »
Without skill points your character is useless. Sure you get them as you level, but there's not enough for Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Psijic, Undaunted, alchemy, class skill lines, Vampire/Werewolf (if applicable), Racials, etc.
Thats your sole personal opinion. I didn't feel useless (and frankly said: I was very usefull supporting my allies) when I did exactly that with my main almost 5 yrears ago.
-> you can use siege weapons, resurrect allies, scout for your team, build traps with allies ... and you don't even need weapon swap for that !
Edited by Elsterchen on April 14, 2019 11:09AM1 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »
Without skill points your character is useless. Sure you get them as you level, but there's not enough for Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Psijic, Undaunted, alchemy, class skill lines, Vampire/Werewolf (if applicable), Racials, etc.
Thats your sole personal optinion. I didn#t feel useless (and frankly said I was very usefull supporting my allies) when I did exactly that with my main almost 5 yrears ago.
< 50 pvp is a lot different than it was 5 years ago lmao. They are like 5 year old hulking children that can bench press a small car, and you want me to go in there at level 10 with a few basic skills and no passives?1 -
ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »1) Now, do you feel these new Crown Store Consumables are designed to be an easily-accessible way to minimize down time? (please elaborate)
2) Do you think they are not designed to give anyone an unfair combat advantage? (please elaborate)
3) Do you think the "but never better than"-argument should apply for these new consumables? (please elaborate)
4) Do you have any further remarks/fears/wishes/hopes/letdowns you like to share regarding the topic? [/i][/b]
Please discuss.
1: Of course. Every altoholic always complains about having to do skyshards, lorebooks and whatnot over and over again.
2: How even? How does getting skill points on a character faster than normal a combat advantage?
3: I don't understand that.
4: No. It's Pay 4 Convenience, not Pay 2 Win.CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA Two Star Warlord - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!5 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
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See, that is a point (valid or not, is not to be debated here) ... and thats why i expect CS-trial as well as CS-dungeon unlocks as well.
Question is, do PVEers really want that?0 -
Commancho✭✭✭✭✭
I don't get it, so if there is only one person who has done it all then how you can say that there is nothing to chase after? Besides, you still have PVP and new PVE/PVP content being added frequently, housing, guilds, new motifs etc.Elsterchen wrote: »I know exactly 1 (in words: ONE) person that has done everything in eso already
So, in this Eso is very different from all other MMOs -> there is nothing to chase after !
Doing experiments with a gear & rotation to maximalise your output can be more time consuming and fun at once than any tedious grind they will serve us. When I can explore this wonderfull word with well done voice acting if I'm always busy with grind for something? When I can enjoy a full campaign in Cyro when I'm busy with slaying skeletons in Skyreach so I can unlock DawnBreaker on my 8th toon?
Do you really need a carrot on the stick to have a motivation to play a video game? Gaming is a form of relax, not a full time job. That's why I have said that all achievements and other stuff should be account wide - FOR FREE.
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witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Considering the player in question must already have unlocked them on another toon, I don't care.
They've already done the time.3 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »
Without skill points your character is useless. Sure you get them as you level, but there's not enough for Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Psijic, Undaunted, alchemy, class skill lines, Vampire/Werewolf (if applicable), Racials, etc.
Thats your sole personal optinion. I didn#t feel useless (and frankly said I was very usefull supporting my allies) when I did exactly that with my main almost 5 yrears ago.
< 50 pvp is a lot different than it was 5 years ago lmao. They are like 5 year old hulking children that can bench press a small car, and you want me to go in there at level 10 with a few basic skills and no passives?
I never set a foot in < level 50 campaigns...
still missing the argument, sry0 -
Vietfox✭✭✭✭✭
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The gap between getting skyshards and paying for them is not "hundreds of hours", please don't be dramatic. You pay to get things faster AND ONLY if you've gotten them before with another character.
Your logic is not good enough, sorry.Edited by Vietfox on April 14, 2019 11:18AM1 -
Vietfox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »
Without skill points your character is useless. Sure you get them as you level, but there's not enough for Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Psijic, Undaunted, alchemy, class skill lines, Vampire/Werewolf (if applicable), Racials, etc.
Thats your sole personal opinion. I didn't feel useless (and frankly said: I was very usefull supporting my allies) when I did exactly that with my main almost 5 yrears ago.
-> you can use siege weapons, resurrect allies, scout for your team, build traps with allies ... and you don't even need weapon swap for that !
True pvpers don't tend to zerg surf.0 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
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The gap between getting skyshards and paying for them is no "hundreds of hours", please don't be dramatic. You pay to get things faster AND ONLY if you've gotten them before with another character.
Your logic is not good enough, sorry.
Well playing any trial isn't taking hundreds of hours, too... do you like to see CS trial unlocks?
Questing a zone isn't taking hundreds of hours, too ... do you like to see CS-zone-XP unlocks?
Playing any dungeon isn't taking hundreds of hours, too... do you like to see CS-dungeon unlocks?
...
When exactly do you draw the line if all active content is available by purchase?Edited by Elsterchen on April 14, 2019 11:19AM0 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »
Without skill points your character is useless. Sure you get them as you level, but there's not enough for Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Psijic, Undaunted, alchemy, class skill lines, Vampire/Werewolf (if applicable), Racials, etc.
Thats your sole personal optinion. I didn#t feel useless (and frankly said I was very usefull supporting my allies) when I did exactly that with my main almost 5 yrears ago.
< 50 pvp is a lot different than it was 5 years ago lmao. They are like 5 year old hulking children that can bench press a small car, and you want me to go in there at level 10 with a few basic skills and no passives?
I never set a foot in < level 50 campaigns...
still missing the argument, sry
You're one of those people who will always "Miss the argument", because there's nothing that can change your mind, so I won't waste my time any longer.5 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »
Without skill points your character is useless. Sure you get them as you level, but there's not enough for Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Psijic, Undaunted, alchemy, class skill lines, Vampire/Werewolf (if applicable), Racials, etc.
Thats your sole personal opinion. I didn't feel useless (and frankly said: I was very usefull supporting my allies) when I did exactly that with my main almost 5 yrears ago.
-> you can use siege weapons, resurrect allies, scout for your team, build traps with allies ... and you don't even need weapon swap for that !
True pvpers don't tend to zerg surf.
Check the forum at what time the term "zerg" poped up ... and "true" PVPers... you surely like status, even if its a virtual nothing in a videogame?
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Jolipinator✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I imagine they will be so expensive that most people will forget they exist a day after release, like everything else in the crown store.PS5 EU.1 -
Vietfox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »
The gap between getting skyshards and paying for them is no "hundreds of hours", please don't be dramatic. You pay to get things faster AND ONLY if you've gotten them before with another character.
Your logic is not good enough, sorry.
Well playing any trial isn't taking hundreds of hours, too... do you like to see CS trial unlocks?
Questing a zone isn't taking hundreds of hours, too ... do you like to see CS-zone-XP unlocks?
Playing any dungeon isn't taking hundreds of hours, too... do you like to see CS-dungeon unlocks?
...
When exactly do you draw the line if all active content is available by purchase?
People do trials to get sets which are completely random, unlike skyshards. Comparing both things it's a bit dumb tbh.2 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Same debate, shiny new thread.1) Now, do you feel these new Crown Store Consumables are designed to be an easily-accessible way to minimize down time? (please elaborate)
2) Do you think they are not designed to give anyone an unfair combat advantage? (please elaborate)
3) Do you think the "but never better than"-argument should apply for these new consumables? (please elaborate)
4) Do you have any further remarks/fears/wishes/hopes/letdowns you like to share regarding the topic?
1) Yes, as time is consumed to obtain them.
2) Skill points, by themselves, do not give a combat advantage. Unfair, or not. Almost all of my characters have more skill points than they have allocated, so I see these as potential, not actual, benefit.
3) Yes, but with game play bypass, the measurement is time. How many Crowns is an hour of time worth?
4) I am disappointed that ZOS is doing this, while relieved that they are not abandoning character-based progression.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus1
