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Do something about Normal Dungeons ZOS
Dear ZOS
I've been playing this game since the beta test. And I have always liked this game. Even though the launch was quite messy.
However there is one thing in the launch of this game that I find very very missing in todays patched up ESO. The way the Normal Dungeons function.
I have had my on and off moments from this game but recently I've gotten quite hooked, logging about 8-10 hours a day (I've been on vacation).
But since I've been back to ESO I've started a new character who is now lvl 32.
And I am so angry at the normal dungeons. They really grind my gears haha.
I jump in spam my two aoe healing abilities and watch as the rest of the team don't even need to worry for a second about any damage zone or for the tank to lose aggro. The Normal Dungeons in ESO feel like Guild Wars 2s (No tank, no healer) gameplay. It's so god damn tedious, boring and ultimately useless.
ZOS can throw away normal dungeons and give that bonus experience to all players each day instead. Because that seems to be all they're good for to me.
I think the scaling is one of the problems. Dungeons scale to eachothers levels I suppose. Which is why a lvl 50 deals about the same amount of damage to a boss in the Banished Cells as a lvl 15 nightblade does. I don't think scaling is right for dungeons. Dungeons should have their own level requirements.
It gives new players something to strive for. Because everytime I unlocked a new dungeon I just shrugged. Why would I wanna do the lvl 32 dungeon when I can do the banished cells again and basically get the same level gear in both.
I apologize for this ranty post but this is something I'm passionate about. Dungeons are supposed to be these challenges that bring your group together to figure out a way to beat the thing as a team. The game shouldn't babysit low level characters.
About the scaling again. I get that this game needs the scaling to keep queues to dungeons low. But honestly. I'm not a fan of dungeon finders anyway.
I've been playing this game since the beta test. And I have always liked this game. Even though the launch was quite messy.
However there is one thing in the launch of this game that I find very very missing in todays patched up ESO. The way the Normal Dungeons function.
I have had my on and off moments from this game but recently I've gotten quite hooked, logging about 8-10 hours a day (I've been on vacation).
But since I've been back to ESO I've started a new character who is now lvl 32.
And I am so angry at the normal dungeons. They really grind my gears haha.
I jump in spam my two aoe healing abilities and watch as the rest of the team don't even need to worry for a second about any damage zone or for the tank to lose aggro. The Normal Dungeons in ESO feel like Guild Wars 2s (No tank, no healer) gameplay. It's so god damn tedious, boring and ultimately useless.
ZOS can throw away normal dungeons and give that bonus experience to all players each day instead. Because that seems to be all they're good for to me.
I think the scaling is one of the problems. Dungeons scale to eachothers levels I suppose. Which is why a lvl 50 deals about the same amount of damage to a boss in the Banished Cells as a lvl 15 nightblade does. I don't think scaling is right for dungeons. Dungeons should have their own level requirements.
It gives new players something to strive for. Because everytime I unlocked a new dungeon I just shrugged. Why would I wanna do the lvl 32 dungeon when I can do the banished cells again and basically get the same level gear in both.
I apologize for this ranty post but this is something I'm passionate about. Dungeons are supposed to be these challenges that bring your group together to figure out a way to beat the thing as a team. The game shouldn't babysit low level characters.
About the scaling again. I get that this game needs the scaling to keep queues to dungeons low. But honestly. I'm not a fan of dungeon finders anyway.
1
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lokulin✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Play vet if norms are too easy?
And in another thread someone will say "Play normal if vet is too hard". The problem might be that the gradient between normal, vet and DLC isn't as smooth as it could be.I've hidden your signature.3 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Play vet if norms are too easy?
Did you even read anything?
I'm talking about how Normals are way too easy for low level characters.1 -
Danksta✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Jadde_dahlbergb16_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Play vet if norms are too easy?
Did you even read anything?
I'm talking about how Normals are way too easy for low level characters.
Solo them?BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA6 -
Find a group of other low level players. Problem solved. Normal dungeons are useful to some solo players who just run them to level their undaunted on their PvP characters3 -
El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Are you running a Level 32 player with full CP from your main/alternate character? That would also be my guess as to why a Level 15 NB was dishing out the same DPS as a Level 50.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Leveling and damage scaling has changed a lot since One Tamriel.
When leveling, everyone is scaled up to CP 160. A level 15 character benefits from battleleveling since they have less skills and stats. As they level up and gain stats and skills, they get less benefit as they grow into their class.
Before One Tamriel, damage increased based primarily on your level. A level 15 character was pathetic and a level 50 character did measurably more damage. Going back to one zones, I could one shot enemies with a single swipe.
Now, damage increases primarily based on your rotation, your gear, and your Champion Points. A level 15 character with accountwide champion points, decent gear, and the game knowledge to use an effective rotation for their level will quite possibly do more DPS than a higher level character who doesnt have CP, has bad gear, and lacks the knowledge of how to effectively perform a damage rotation. Certainly, a level 15 with CP will be much more effective than a level 15 with no CP.
You also mentioned "Why would I want to do the level 32 dungeon when I can sit in Banished Cells?" One of the major changes of One Tamriel was to make all dungeon gear Bind on Pickup and to add a lot of gear sets to the game. So if you want the gear sets, you have to run that particular dungeon. Additionally, if "challenge" is something you seek, the dungeons you unlock do get harder with more complicated mechanics as you level. You'll really see the improvement once you hit level 45 and the dungeons that ZOS added with One Tamriel unlock along with the DLC dungeons if you own them.
The method of unlocking the dungeons is to the benefit of new players and experienced players alike. I don't know if you were active during the period after One Tamriel when low level characters didnt get "babysat". At level 10, players could queue for FG 1 and 2, BC 1 and 2, and Spindleclutch 1 and 2, and if they subscribed, ALL of the then DLC dungeons. That's a huge variation in difficulty and lots of new and experienced players complained about it. The current system is designed specifically in response to those missteps so that new players have a good shot at learning mechanics as they level.
If you really want an experience where your team is pulling together to complete the content, I suggest you run with a premade group or try to run with inexperienced players. Groupfinder tends to get everything from people running it their first time to daily random dungeon speedrunners, or players like me where I can be leveling a tank yet have run the dungeon 50 times on other characters. Moreover, wanting that experience has nothing to do with level - I've had runs like that on all of my characters from level 12 tank to CP 810 MagDK. In one particular run of Normal Darkshade II where we all pulled together to the finish, 3 of us had CP and the lowest was 48.1 -
VaranisArano wrote: »Leveling and damage scaling has changed a lot since One Tamriel.
When leveling, everyone is scaled up to CP 160. A level 15 character benefits from battleleveling since they have less skills and stats. As they level up and gain stats and skills, they get less benefit as they grow into their class.
Before One Tamriel, damage increased based primarily on your level. A level 15 character was pathetic and a level 50 character did measurably more damage. Going back to one zones, I could one shot enemies with a single swipe.
Now, damage increases primarily based on your rotation, your gear, and your Champion Points. A level 15 character with accountwide champion points, decent gear, and the game knowledge to use an effective rotation for their level will quite possibly do more DPS than a higher level character who doesnt have CP, has bad gear, and lacks the knowledge of how to effectively perform a damage rotation. Certainly, a level 15 with CP will be much more effective than a level 15 with no CP.
You also mentioned "Why would I want to do the level 32 dungeon when I can sit in Banished Cells?" One of the major changes of One Tamriel was to make all dungeon gear Bind on Pickup and to add a lot of gear sets to the game. So if you want the gear sets, you have to run that particular dungeon. Additionally, if "challenge" is something you seek, the dungeons you unlock do get harder with more complicated mechanics as you level. You'll really see the improvement once you hit level 45 and the dungeons that ZOS added with One Tamriel unlock along with the DLC dungeons if you own them.
The method of unlocking the dungeons is to the benefit of new players and experienced players alike. I don't know if you were active during the period after One Tamriel when low level characters didnt get "babysat". At level 10, players could queue for FG 1 and 2, BC 1 and 2, and Spindleclutch 1 and 2, and if they subscribed, ALL of the then DLC dungeons. That's a huge variation in difficulty and lots of new and experienced players complained about it. The current system is designed specifically in response to those missteps so that new players have a good shot at learning mechanics as they level.
If you really want an experience where your team is pulling together to complete the content, I suggest you run with a premade group or try to run with inexperienced players. Groupfinder tends to get everything from people running it their first time to daily random dungeon speedrunners, or players like me where I can be leveling a tank yet have run the dungeon 50 times on other characters. Moreover, wanting that experience has nothing to do with level - I've had runs like that on all of my characters from level 12 tank to CP 810 MagDK. In one particular run of Normal Darkshade II where we all pulled together to the finish, 3 of us had CP and the lowest was 48.
That's quite the respond and I appreciate it. I have just introduced two of my friends to ESO who have no experience with it whatsoever. My problem isn't with the scaling in the game. I was active prior and post One Tamriel by the way. That patch upset me in a lot of ways, but of course it also brings a lot of pros. For example it makes me think of lower queue times for dungeons. Which is a bonus. But my problem stated with the normal dungeons. Is the amount of effort you need to put in to the dungeons as a low level. My friends who dont know anything of the game are almost hitting lvl 50 now. And they are complaining about the difficulty level of the game in general. They do not feel any sort of progress because everything is too easy. Now the whole scaling of zones we're all fine with. But the dungeons man... The normal dungeons are child play and they want to put in effort into going through the bosses. I keep promising my friends challenges as they hit CP levels...
And frankly, if I wasn't promising them the challenge when they reach CP ranks. They'd stop playing immediately. And I understand their frustration, because I started a new character along with them.
I have plenty of CP points so obviously playing with me is a bonus for them. But the challenges in normals are non existent. And I don't mean for this to be a critique about the game in general. Because this game is wonderful, lovely to experience, challenging and fun. But getting to that part of the game.. Takes a lot of dedication and patience. The wrong kind of patience in my opinion. Dungeons should bring people together, sure give players an idea of what they are for the first dungeon or two. But to just be able to steamroll through all the normals all the way to 50 is a bit frustrating. I hope you understand I wish the best for this game, and even though my opinion of what is the best for this game might not objectively be the best for the game. This is what I feel is a major flaw. It's great that people get to get a hold of the game in normal dungeons. But when you're atleast over lvl 25. Give the people some challenge to learn the game even better.
Thanks for your reply. Apologies for my grammar and cheers for the commitment to this wonderful MMORPG
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Ap3xJohn15 wrote: »Find a group of other low level players. Problem solved. Normal dungeons are useful to some solo players who just run them to level their undaunted on their PvP characters
We're all low level except for me. I have a CP ranked character but the others are brand new to the game.0 -
FierceSam✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I think there is a much bigger difference between inexperienced and experienced players than between low level and CP level toons.
A L32 toon in the hands of a new player, unfamiliar with dungeons will find the experience of any normal dungeons challenging. I know I certainly found them a challenge when I started doing them on my CP 450 toon. It wasn’t the toon’s issue, it was my unfamiliarity with dungeons and the play style they required.
Now if I go into the same dungeon with a L32 toon, it will be a piece of cake, because I am better at the game and know how dungeons work. It sounds like you’re in the same position.
This isn’t a reason to increase the difficulty of these dungeons. BC1 or FG1 may be cakewalks for the experienced, but they are challenging enough for players of whatever level who haven’t done many dungeons. And if the comments we see from people who say they haven’t even TRIED dungeons because they are worried that dungeons are too hard or they are apprehensive about doing any group content are anything to go by, it’s a good thing they are as forgiving as they are. Everyone has to start somewhere and these are the places they start.
For me the challenge has moved on and that’s the way it should be.3 -
Trinity_Is_My_Name✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agree. Normal dungeons are very, very easy. One Tamriel changed the game from challenging to super easy for all.2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »Agree. Normal dungeons are very, very easy. One Tamriel changed the game from challenging to super easy for all.
One Tamriel changed the game from:
Decently challenging at your level
Impossible due to artificial miss chabces above your level
Faceroll easy below your level
To depend on your ability to play and do DPS.
If you do high DPS relative to the content you play, its Faceroll easy.
If you do low DPS relative to the level of content you play, its quite difficult.
And rarely, you manage to find that sweet spot where your DPS rotation is exactly the right level of challenge without having to adjust your build in some way.
If you want to chase that sense of challenge without moving to harder content, adjusting your DPS is the easiest way to do that now. You can choose to follow mechanics, get squishier, or don't use Champion Points if you really want that challenge. Ideally, as you the player get more powerful, you move on to harder content and get your challenge there.
But One Tamriel doesnt let you get more powerful AND stay doing the same level of content AND feel challenged. You can have 2 out of the 3.0 -
CassandraGemini✭✭✭✭✭
✭Honestly, I'm not quite sure what your problem is, OP. If you find the normal dungeons too easy, why don't you just go and play vet instead? If your friends hit level 50 with their toons they can enter the vet dungeons now, and doing those without a certain cp pool should certainly be a challenge. So why not just do that?This poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!2 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭CassandraGemini wrote: »Honestly, I'm not quite sure what your problem is, OP. If you find the normal dungeons too easy, why don't you just go and play vet instead? If your friends hit level 50 with their toons they can enter the vet dungeons now, and doing those without a certain cp pool should certainly be a challenge. So why not just do that?
^0 -
Chuaznega✭✭Are you using CP points on this new character? Cause I started a new account and things are not that easy even on normal. Try to go on dungeons with other low levels without using CP points.
They are not that hard anyway I guess, but I wonder if they were hard, people would continue to play them? Not everyone likes hard things.
Perhaps we would need something like, Normal, Average and Veteran difficulties.Edited by Chuaznega on March 11, 2019 4:23PM0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
The one shot in vBC1 and vet spidel1 is to hard for an 1 dungeon.Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Play vet if norms are too easy?
And in another thread someone will say "Play normal if vet is too hard". The problem might be that the gradient between normal, vet and DLC isn't as smooth as it could be.
Else its pretty nice.Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Trinity_Is_My_Name✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »Agree. Normal dungeons are very, very easy. One Tamriel changed the game from challenging to super easy for all.
One Tamriel changed the game from:
Decently challenging at your level
Impossible due to artificial miss chabces above your level
Faceroll easy below your level
To depend on your ability to play and do DPS.
If you do high DPS relative to the content you play, its Faceroll easy.
If you do low DPS relative to the level of content you play, its quite difficult.
And rarely, you manage to find that sweet spot where your DPS rotation is exactly the right level of challenge without having to adjust your build in some way.
If you want to chase that sense of challenge without moving to harder content, adjusting your DPS is the easiest way to do that now. You can choose to follow mechanics, get squishier, or don't use Champion Points if you really want that challenge. Ideally, as you the player get more powerful, you move on to harder content and get your challenge there.
But One Tamriel doesnt let you get more powerful AND stay doing the same level of content AND feel challenged. You can have 2 out of the 3.
All true however the way the game was before One Tamriel you normally went from a zone at your level to the next zone at your level staying somewhat at the level in zone as your character's level. When I wanted a challenge I would go to level 37 to 43 zones (i.e. Bangkorai for e.g.) and run my level 24 characters there testing my Mettle. Now we cannot even do that. Game is super simple and super easy. I can solo normal dungeons at very low levels with No CP and No deaths. Think my lowest to solo a normal dungeon was level 13 with No CP. Heck, just for grins and giggles I soled Volenfell at level 26 No CP recently and no deaths. Way too easy.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »Agree. Normal dungeons are very, very easy. One Tamriel changed the game from challenging to super easy for all.
One Tamriel changed the game from:
Decently challenging at your level
Impossible due to artificial miss chabces above your level
Faceroll easy below your level
To depend on your ability to play and do DPS.
If you do high DPS relative to the content you play, its Faceroll easy.
If you do low DPS relative to the level of content you play, its quite difficult.
And rarely, you manage to find that sweet spot where your DPS rotation is exactly the right level of challenge without having to adjust your build in some way.
If you want to chase that sense of challenge without moving to harder content, adjusting your DPS is the easiest way to do that now. You can choose to follow mechanics, get squishier, or don't use Champion Points if you really want that challenge. Ideally, as you the player get more powerful, you move on to harder content and get your challenge there.
But One Tamriel doesnt let you get more powerful AND stay doing the same level of content AND feel challenged. You can have 2 out of the 3.
All true however the way the game was before One Tamriel you normally went from a zone at your level to the next zone at your level staying somewhat at the level in zone as your character's level. When I wanted a challenge I would go to level 37 to 43 zones (i.e. Bangkorai for e.g.) and run my level 24 characters there testing my Mettle. Now we cannot even do that. Game is super simple and super easy. I can solo normal dungeons at very low levels with No CP and No deaths. Think my lowest to solo a normal dungeon was level 13 with No CP. Heck, just for grins and giggles I soled Volenfell at level 26 No CP recently and no deaths. Way too easy.
See, in my experience, everything that was more than 5 levels above my character was impossible to play because of the artificial miss chance.
I ran into that on my leveling stam sorc. I was level 15 and questing at the level 17 or 18 quests...until the artificial miss chance made it so I stopped being able to even hit enemies. Not very fun, that.0 -
El_Borracho wrote: »Are you running a Level 32 player with full CP from your main/alternate character? That would also be my guess as to why a Level 15 NB was dishing out the same DPS as a Level 50.
I'm a lvl 32 healer with a cp 260+. My friends are all brand new. I do nothing but heal in the dungeon to let my friends fight a little. And it's pretty mediocre.CassandraGemini wrote: »Honestly, I'm not quite sure what your problem is, OP. If you find the normal dungeons too easy, why don't you just go and play vet instead? If your friends hit level 50 with their toons they can enter the vet dungeons now, and doing those without a certain cp pool should certainly be a challenge. So why not just do that?
Thanks for the response.
You just stated what my problem is with the normal dungeons.
The normals are too easy, so easy in fact that my pre made friends I got to buy the game. Who have never set foot in ESO before, had issues leveling their characters because there was no sense of real character progression. Why does gaining skill points, attribute points, new spells, armor and weapons matter, if their experience in the game is the same all the way to level 50.
I try to keep promising my friends that challenge will come when they can start with vet dungeons. But it's difficult for me to keep pushing them to faceroll through the joke of a challenge leveling to 50 is and normal dungeons are. They have no experience in ESO whatsoever and the first dungeon we cleared (Banished cells) they just stood there and were like "So that's it?". I do think this is a real problem. If ZOS is doing a Level Scaling system of zones (Which they have) then they can't do the same for dungeons. Dungeons are a place where you test your competence of the game and to test your characters strength and its a real reward for someone like me atleast. To fight for glory. Not have it handed to me because I have a low level char.
This all boils down to personal preference. I know Vet dungeons are a challenge. But Normals should be a challenge for low level characters imo.
Cheers0 -
I think there is a much bigger difference between inexperienced and experienced players than between low level and CP level toons.
A L32 toon in the hands of a new player, unfamiliar with dungeons will find the experience of any normal dungeons challenging. I know I certainly found them a challenge when I started doing them on my CP 450 toon. It wasn’t the toon’s issue, it was my unfamiliarity with dungeons and the play style they required.
Now if I go into the same dungeon with a L32 toon, it will be a piece of cake, because I am better at the game and know how dungeons work. It sounds like you’re in the same position.
This isn’t a reason to increase the difficulty of these dungeons. BC1 or FG1 may be cakewalks for the experienced, but they are challenging enough for players of whatever level who haven’t done many dungeons. And if the comments we see from people who say they haven’t even TRIED dungeons because they are worried that dungeons are too hard or they are apprehensive about doing any group content are anything to go by, it’s a good thing they are as forgiving as they are. Everyone has to start somewhere and these are the places they start.
For me the challenge has moved on and that’s the way it should be.
I've played since the beta and started again as soon as the game launched. The first dungeon for me which was Banished Cells was really challenging and I really appreciated that I had to memorize the bosses mechanics to be able to further progress. As well as having to inform other players who hadn't done it yet about the bosses. Great way to meet new people as well.
When One Tamriel came out I thought of it as a great thing for the game which I still do. I just think the way they decided to scale EVERYTHING was a bad idea. I recall not visiting a bunch of zones in the game and One Tamriel really fixed that issue. But the dungeons man... And to answer what you wrote. My 3 friends who have no experience in an action mmorpg or anything similar to ESO whatsoever. They were really disappointed with the dungeons. All the way from level 12 to their now level 42. It's been really difficult for me to keep them playing and to promise them challenge and real character progression when they hit CP ranks. They have no experience in this game and there is no need for them to worry for a second when playing ESO. (One of my friends I might add has never even played an MMO before) and even he complains about the difficulty in ESO.
I love ESO, I really do. And I hate to see it being dumbed down like this. I used to think ESO was really challenging before One Tamriel and I get that's not for everyone. But leveling in my opinion isn't about having it all handed to you until you reach max level for end game purposes. It's about accomplishing something and riding through hell and heaven with your character. Some things that kicked your ass at one point, is now having their ass kicked by you.
Sorry if it sounds ranty but I'm not ranting at you. My ranting is for ZOS for I feel they could have made a better implementation of Level Scaling. Because I actually generally like it.0 -
CassandraGemini✭✭✭✭✭
✭Jadde_dahlbergb16_ESO wrote: »El_Borracho wrote: »Are you running a Level 32 player with full CP from your main/alternate character? That would also be my guess as to why a Level 15 NB was dishing out the same DPS as a Level 50.
I'm a lvl 32 healer with a cp 260+. My friends are all brand new. I do nothing but heal in the dungeon to let my friends fight a little. And it's pretty mediocre.CassandraGemini wrote: »Honestly, I'm not quite sure what your problem is, OP. If you find the normal dungeons too easy, why don't you just go and play vet instead? If your friends hit level 50 with their toons they can enter the vet dungeons now, and doing those without a certain cp pool should certainly be a challenge. So why not just do that?
Thanks for the response.
You just stated what my problem is with the normal dungeons.
The normals are too easy, so easy in fact that my pre made friends I got to buy the game. Who have never set foot in ESO before, had issues leveling their characters because there was no sense of real character progression. Why does gaining skill points, attribute points, new spells, armor and weapons matter, if their experience in the game is the same all the way to level 50.
I try to keep promising my friends that challenge will come when they can start with vet dungeons. But it's difficult for me to keep pushing them to faceroll through the joke of a challenge leveling to 50 is and normal dungeons are. They have no experience in ESO whatsoever and the first dungeon we cleared (Banished cells) they just stood there and were like "So that's it?". I do think this is a real problem. If ZOS is doing a Level Scaling system of zones (Which they have) then they can't do the same for dungeons. Dungeons are a place where you test your competence of the game and to test your characters strength and its a real reward for someone like me atleast. To fight for glory. Not have it handed to me because I have a low level char.
This all boils down to personal preference. I know Vet dungeons are a challenge. But Normals should be a challenge for low level characters imo.
Cheers
Well... I can kind of see where you're coming from and I even agree with you to a certain extent. There are a few problems, though. First this whole issue where you get so extremely bored with the easy difficulty of normal dungeons mostly arises when you focus a lot on the multiplayer aspect of the game. Sure, when you do mainly dungeons and not much of the overland content, I can very well imagine that you must be bored out of your minds after a short time in the normal non-dlc dungeons. But there is probably just a small percentage of people who do that, most players (especially when they create their first characters like your friends) will be focussing on the overland stuff and questing and just do the dungeons on the side whenever they become available, or maybe ignore them completely. So what you're describing is a pretty "niche" problem so to speak and to change the whole system for that? I don't know.
My second point is, there is a reason that the dungeons are split into normal and vet. This is not Dark Souls. Not everyone wants to battle through hordes of monsters that can all kill you in one hit, just for the feeling of satisfaction when you still manage to beat them. I mean, don't get me wrong, I personally love Dark Souls and the feeling of accomplishment that goes with it, but there are a lot of people who don't. And I also feel like ESO's battle system doesn't really allow for Dark Souls-like combat, since stuff tends to get very hectic and the screen can be very clustered. If you want every last enemy to be a challenge, you need to be able to focus on them properly, to pull individual enemies to deal with them. ESO is not designed that way. But granted, this is just my very own personal opinion and I know that lots of people probably won't share it. Just thought, I'd point it out
So, yeah, for people like you and your friends the system as it is now sucks, but everyone else, who wants to have an easier time with dungeons, should still have that opportunity by not changing the normal ones. Vet is a different story of course, so yeah... I know, this doesn't really help you, but I have to stick to what I first said: You will have to opt for the vet dungeons, if you and your friends want a challenge and just slog through the normals to level up.This poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!1 -
CassandraGemini wrote: »Jadde_dahlbergb16_ESO wrote: »El_Borracho wrote: »Are you running a Level 32 player with full CP from your main/alternate character? That would also be my guess as to why a Level 15 NB was dishing out the same DPS as a Level 50.
I'm a lvl 32 healer with a cp 260+. My friends are all brand new. I do nothing but heal in the dungeon to let my friends fight a little. And it's pretty mediocre.CassandraGemini wrote: »Honestly, I'm not quite sure what your problem is, OP. If you find the normal dungeons too easy, why don't you just go and play vet instead? If your friends hit level 50 with their toons they can enter the vet dungeons now, and doing those without a certain cp pool should certainly be a challenge. So why not just do that?
Thanks for the response.
You just stated what my problem is with the normal dungeons.
The normals are too easy, so easy in fact that my pre made friends I got to buy the game. Who have never set foot in ESO before, had issues leveling their characters because there was no sense of real character progression. Why does gaining skill points, attribute points, new spells, armor and weapons matter, if their experience in the game is the same all the way to level 50.
I try to keep promising my friends that challenge will come when they can start with vet dungeons. But it's difficult for me to keep pushing them to faceroll through the joke of a challenge leveling to 50 is and normal dungeons are. They have no experience in ESO whatsoever and the first dungeon we cleared (Banished cells) they just stood there and were like "So that's it?". I do think this is a real problem. If ZOS is doing a Level Scaling system of zones (Which they have) then they can't do the same for dungeons. Dungeons are a place where you test your competence of the game and to test your characters strength and its a real reward for someone like me atleast. To fight for glory. Not have it handed to me because I have a low level char.
This all boils down to personal preference. I know Vet dungeons are a challenge. But Normals should be a challenge for low level characters imo.
Cheers
Well... I can kind of see where you're coming from and I even agree with you to a certain extent. There are a few problems, though. First this whole issue where you get so extremely bored with the easy difficulty of normal dungeons mostly arises when you focus a lot on the multiplayer aspect of the game. Sure, when you do mainly dungeons and not much of the overland content, I can very well imagine that you must be bored out of your minds after a short time in the normal non-dlc dungeons. But there is probably just a small percentage of people who do that, most players (especially when they create their first characters like your friends) will be focussing on the overland stuff and questing and just do the dungeons on the side whenever they become available, or maybe ignore them completely. So what you're describing is a pretty "niche" problem so to speak and to change the whole system for that? I don't know.
My second point is, there is a reason that the dungeons are split into normal and vet. This is not Dark Souls. Not everyone wants to battle through hordes of monsters that can all kill you in one hit, just for the feeling of satisfaction when you still manage to beat them. I mean, don't get me wrong, I personally love Dark Souls and the feeling of accomplishment that goes with it, but there are a lot of people who don't. And I also feel like ESO's battle system doesn't really allow for Dark Souls-like combat, since stuff tends to get very hectic and the screen can be very clustered. If you want every last enemy to be a challenge, you need to be able to focus on them properly, to pull individual enemies to deal with them. ESO is not designed that way. But granted, this is just my very own personal opinion and I know that lots of people probably won't share it. Just thought, I'd point it out
So, yeah, for people like you and your friends the system as it is now sucks, but everyone else, who wants to have an easier time with dungeons, should still have that opportunity by not changing the normal ones. Vet is a different story of course, so yeah... I know, this doesn't really help you, but I have to stick to what I first said: You will have to opt for the vet dungeons, if you and your friends want a challenge and just slog through the normals to level up.
Hey there, thanks for the overall reply. Most of what you said I can agree with. You didn't only write a reply like some did (ex. "just play vet dungeons") So thank you for that.
So like I said I agree with your overall message. But don't get me wrong. I'm not asking for a super difficult time like in Dark Souls (Which I haven't played by the way, not my type of game), I am looking for what I considered vanilla WoW to be like. Getting into your first dungeon required some sort of coordination and tactic even if the very first dungeons were pretty easy. The very first dungeons in vanilla wow introduced me to working with my team as a team, communicating about how some of the bosses mechanics function. And I absolutely do not mean that ESO don't have you take a few seconds or minutes to talk with your party about some mechanics of the bosses, ESO does a wonderful job with the bosses to make it fun and challenging... In Veteran... And that is my point of my little ranty message. That this game never introduced or made a good first impression of working together as a party to conquer this normal dungeon. That doesn't mean it has to be hard just not so damn brain dead. My friends first experiences in dungeons were mediocre at least. Rushing.. and I mean RUSHING through every single enemy smashing them to pieces. And none of us liked that. They are finally CP 160+ now so we're having a *** blast together right now. And I love that we have such a great time in this amazing game.
I feel like you and I are on the same page and that we are like-minded to some extent about this issue.
I just want this game to thrive and give a great introduction for new players what working together means. Which in my opinion is the point of an MMO. Learn the dungeons and your partys strength and weaknesses calmly in the beginning (aka normal dungeons) and then bring that knowledge with you to veteran dungeons.
I by no mean think this game is bad. The end-game is really really good. But getting there is ugh... So tedious, to players like me and my friends. Who wants to learn by mistakes as we move towards greater power with our characters. Not be held in the hand and thrown into a vet dungeon when we hit cp160.
Thanks again for your reply.0 -
thorwyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭In my opinion, one of the problems here is the definition of difficulty. If you just buff the mobs, the fights would only last longer, but wouldn't make them more difficult. If you add mechanics that require people to do certain things like move out of a red area or block certain effects, the effects need to be deadly, otherwise you could just ignore/counter heal them. And if they make those effects deadly, you WILL find posts complaining about certain dungeons being too difficult, because - believe it or not - there ARE players out there who are unable to see and react to those effects. Many players, even high CP people, tend to avoid the majority of DLC dungeons because they are a. too long and b. featuring certain mechanics other than tank-and-spank. Increasing the difficulty of dungeons is... difficult. Edited by thorwyn on April 12, 2019 1:57PMAnd if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon1 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Jadde_dahlbergb16_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Play vet if norms are too easy?
Did you even read anything?
I'm talking about how Normals are way too easy for low level characters.
Play without your CP then. If you're using that, you can't claim to be a low level.PC/Xbox NA Mindmender|Swashbuckler Supreme|Planes Breaker|Dawnbringer|Godslayer|Immortal Redeemer|Gryphon Heart|Tick-tock Tormentor|Dro-m'Athra Destroyer|Stormproof|Grand Overlord|Grand Mastercrafter|Master Grappler|Tamriel Hero0
