Stealth/Cloak/Invisibility - balance

kaithuzar · April 2019

I would like to propose a new discussion around stealth vs cloak vs invisibility vs options.
What has ESO done right, what have other games done right, what are the best paths to move forward if any changes were to be presented/take place.

In my opinion, the strength from best to worst goes like this:
invisibility>cloak>stealth

I have this opinion because:
1) invisibility is available to all classes via potions.

2) invisibility 'appears' to not fall victim to the same mechanics that cloak does, such as mechanics used to pull a person out of cloak (whether they be aoe's, detect pots, mage light, etc..there seems inconsistencies with reliably finding someone who went 'invisible')

3) cloak 'can' be spammable; but only if you build for it
(should this be a thing, the same way that healers or health recovery builds, or tanks can reduce damage/restore health/mitigate damage; IF they build for it? What should be the balance here, say if there are 4 aspects to a build:
a) dealing damage
b) resource sustain
c) damage mitigation
d) healing
How much of/what percent of these 'groups' should be sacrificed in order to call something 'balanced'? 2/4?)

4) all classes may have access to stealth, however it's impossible to get into once in combat; so clearly just an 'opening move'.

Blade and Soul, another game I play, has an assassin class with a cloak-like invisibility mechanic. They may have taken it from ESO's version, as I believe aoe's can pull you out as well; I'm unsure who had it first, but I think this is an example for comparison.

Despite the many efforts to balance cloak, I personally believe it is balanced, yet there are those who disagree & so I'm interested in hearing and discussing options.
I'm of the opinion that stealth 'can be' an overpowered mechanic, but it's a necessity/core mechanic within "role playing games/rpg's" & thus necessity for "mmorpg's" and should be seen as balanced comparatively from the majority perspective.
I'm also of the opinion that there are many things in ESO that "would work differently" if there was ZERO lag. So I'm not sure whether or not we should make balance calls 'around the lag', but instead, maybe either focus on the perfect lag free scenario, or even just not change anything until the lag is fixed & we can further test?

Specific examples that I would like to discuss:
Can I be prevented from using 'cloak' as a skill on my bar? -Yes, How? -Magelight
Can any other classes be prevented from using a skill(s) on their bar? -Technically Yes, How? -Negate ; Are stamina builds completely left out of this hindrance? Why?

Lots of options & opinions to be had, I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.
(by the way, I'm not doing a poll because I personally don't trust the data)

-Kai

P.S.
1) Forgot to add a topic of debate:
The viability of cloak as a defensive mechanism for dodging attacks. How reliable is it, how frequent/how good are you or others at utilizing this & how effective is it?

Jeezye · April 2019

Imo stealth in ESO works totally fine. Invisibility however, combined with cloak, is too strong and for close combat. I'd like to see a detection radius of ~2-3 meters in front of each person even for invisibility, as this will prevent stamblades and others to brainlessly spamm the skill right in front of you and force them for more clever use and positioning.

Also one thing that strikes me is, why are dots completly suppressed by cloak but hots aren't? This gives nightblades a free back to full health button if they stack 1-2 hots (mutagen/vigor/forward momentum)... Mist form is far weaker and negates all healing received AND allows dots to do damage.

Cloak as a spammable is fine imo as its really expensive and forces you to build alot around sustain.

Strider__Roshin · April 2019

They need to nerf invisibility and buff medium armor.

Alucardo · April 2019

Daus wrote: »

They need to nerf invisibility and buff medium armor.

Medium is actually pretty good. It is taking a beating this patch though admittedly, which is why I made a thread earlier about changing Elude (the Evasion morph nobody picks) to give crit resistance per piece of medium armor worn.
This is because I don't think medium should get buffed passively, but could give you a buff if you're willing to run Elude.

Gilvoth · April 2019

there is nothing wrong with stealth, cloak, and invisibility.
the developers already made it balanced.
it doesn't need rebuilt.
it does not need nerfed.
please stop making nerf and rebuild skills threads, it is destroying balance and causing stress for people totally unnecessary.
the developers already built and balanced what skills are in eso, and they keep working on them because its their career and Job and they are doing a great job.
let them do that work and lets go play eso instead of making these threads insinuating that eso is broken, insinuating that the skills in eso and the balance in eso is broken, because its fine as it is.
when there is a need for nerfs, they do them. please stop encouraging it.

Iskiab · April 2019

I think cloak’s fine as is. It’s great is certain situations and weak if people actually use the counters.

Couple things raised:
- healing breaks cloak and hots aren’t strong enough to bring someone to full health. It would take two casts of rapid regen going the full duration to do that, so maybe 30 seconds and with the burst in pvp that just isn’t happening
- Yea you can cloak right in front of a person and a single target ability won’t be able to hit you, even if they can see you. I do this to break up people’s burst combo all the time. Use an aoe, if you’re always doing the same rotation in pvp for burst how is your playstyle different then a macro? Be better than a macro, you’re too predictable

kaithuzar · April 2019

@Gilvoth

I think you misunderstand me.
This is NOT a nerf thread. I main magblade, I do not want cloak nerfed.

I have recently read a few threads where it was mentioned that cloak is OP, overtuned, over blanced, etc.. & I wanted a central place to answer concerns around it, and take part in debates, in a constructive manner; if those concerns still exist.

idk · April 2019

Your #2 items you seem to be guessing at how it works as you say it "appears" to be.

It is great you are thinking about the game, but if you do not really know how the actual mechanics of something works in the game how can you really suggest changes? You cannot since you do not understand some of the basics of where things are now.

kaithuzar · April 2019

idk wrote: »

Your #2 items you seem to be guessing at how it works as you say it "appears" to be.

It is great you are thinking about the game, but if you do not really know how the actual mechanics of something works in the game how can you really suggest changes? You cannot since you do not understand some of the basics of where things are now.

I won't disagree, around my misunderstanding of how invisibility potions "actually work" because I haven't tested lately & do not remember.
I will disagree on the point of my commenting on "other parts" that I have mentioned in the context & do understand how they work; so your comment is a bit blanketed.

P.S.
I should note that I'm not against correcting me where I'm wrong. Since I obviously showed I do not know how invisibility potions currently work, I welcome an explanation.

ccmedaddy · April 2019

Did they buff the invisibility pot recently? Last time I checked, it does not suppress DoTs nor does it force projectiles to miss, making it inferior to cloak in almost every single way.

But then it's been a while since I've used them so..

Heimpai · April 2019

Daus wrote: »

They need to nerf invisibility and buff medium armor.

Ah so buff stamblade and not magblade which actually needs the buff?

Vapirko · April 2019

Alucardo wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

They need to nerf invisibility and buff medium armor.

Medium is actually pretty good. It is taking a beating this patch though admittedly, which is why I made a thread earlier about changing Elude (the Evasion morph nobody picks) to give crit resistance per piece of medium armor worn.
This is because I don't think medium should get buffed passively, but could give you a buff if you're willing to run Elude.

We don’t really need more crit resist though, even though I’m fine reworking that morph. More snare removal would be better and I still say we get rid of the stupid sneaking passive, move it to legerdemain and put something useful in its place that is only applicable with five pieces of medium.