Ildun wrote: »

By the way, if you just use necromancer's living death skills to heal and resurrect people, is that still consider evil? In lore and game mechanic wise?

Probably considered, though possibly not. We don't know exactly how they're doing it.

Are they merely rebinding the recently departed soul to the body? If so, I'd say that's good. Especially since our typical method of resurrection uses a filled soul gem - i.e. it's fueled by someone / something else's soul.

But the line long held by the likes of the Mages Guild is that all knowledge in the vicinity of necromancy is too prone to abuse so it should all be considered taboo and they would probably paint this as evil regardless. See the section on responsible necromancy.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancy

Soul trapping humans requires a black soul gem. non black soul gems are animal souls.

Youre essentially taking souls from the Dreamsleeve (sort of like a realm where souls get recycled) and sending them to whatever patron/matron youre worshipping to (generally Ideal Masters or Molag Bal).
But this is an overly simplified statement so its better if you dig into Imperial Library to uncover your own truth.

According to Skyrim's Dawnguard DLC only humanoid souls ends in Soul Cairn when used. We don't know what happens to animals, and the undead (non-vampires). My theory is that their souls are different, and cannot be used the same way by higher entities. Because of this their souls are let gone to whatever place they go when used for enhancing.

My characters in skyrim uses a bat file to destroy any filled, and non-filled black soul gem. In my roleplay this destruction is purely to let the soul go to where it belongs instead of soul cairn, and avoid trapping humanoids in the first place. I get no reward for doing it so i don't consider cheating.

In this game i haven't encountered black soul gem, and i get enough filled soul gem from the dungeons to ignore the soul trap ability.

As for necromancy being evil. I'm not entirely sure about that. A dunmer necromancer in Skyrim has an excellent point. "The dead should serve the living, and not reverse." "Your ancestors are in Sovngarde nord. These are just their bodies used as tools." I think, that there are different type of reanimation spells.

1. Quick revive. Revive the dead before the soul departs as undead. I consider this neutral, if the cause is right, and evil if the undead kept for long no matter the cause. For example if it helps winning a battle against a Daedric cult, then you let them depart, then it's neutral.
2. Zombie/skeleton revive. You use the dead body as a tool for your powers. You only reanimate the body without tearing the soul it belonged to. These undead are barely more, than animals, and have no coherent thoughts, or will. In my opinion doing this is entirely ok. You simply "recycle" the dead bodies for a better use.
3. Spirit summoning/binding. You tear the soul from Atherius, and bind it to something. The right cause can justify this, if the soul relased afterwards, but keeping them long term is evil once again.

The greatest evil is "selling" the humanoid souls to a daedra, or the ideal masters. You aren't just killing someone, but even deny their afterworld. This kind of practice is unforgivable.

Ildun wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

In this game i haven't encountered black soul gem, and i get enough filled soul gem from the dungeons to ignore the soul trap ability.

But in ESO, you don't need black soul gem to trap man and mer soul, normal soul gem can do that, what if the filled soul gem you found is trapping sentient soul?

This is correct.
Pretty sure you can soul trap humanoids in eso in white gems.
Also one of the perks in the soul skill line have an chance of trapping souls automatic.
This is why you never run out of soul gems.

zaria wrote: »

Ildun wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

In this game i haven't encountered black soul gem, and i get enough filled soul gem from the dungeons to ignore the soul trap ability.

But in ESO, you don't need black soul gem to trap man and mer soul, normal soul gem can do that, what if the filled soul gem you found is trapping sentient soul?

This is correct.
Pretty sure you can soul trap humanoids in eso in white gems.
Also one of the perks in the soul skill line have an chance of trapping souls automatic.
This is why you never run out of soul gems.

that should not be happening
breaks lore

So the developer are belong to the worm cult, they play us like a damn fiddle

Recremen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Guild_Memo_on_Soul_Trapping
In this, Vanus explains that mystics selling soul gems and the prevalence of soul trapping in the 2nd era is due to Mannimarco and his Order convincing everyone that its totally okay. Vanus disagrees, but he recognizes that it will take time to convince the rest of Tamriel to agree.

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Souls,_Black_and_White
A little more on souls.

Healing is generally part of Restoration. Necromancy is generally Conjuration and Mysticism.

Hold up, other than Soul Trap, what other spells effects from Mysticism are Necromantic? The Absorb spells? What about when they get shifted over to the Restoration school in Oblivion? Or when Soul Trap gets shifted to Conjuration in Skyrim? IDK I'm 100% with you on Conjuration but totes not for Mysticism.

Good question. I'd vaguely remembered a connection - Mannimarco studied Mysticism under the Psijics, and is the master of multiple schools which is not usually true for most of his students - and so I went looking.

There's this: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Black_Arts_On_Trial
Its a series of arguments back and forth in favor of Necromancy and Against, in the Mages Guild of Oblivion.

(Pro-necromancy)Argument by Master gra-Kogg: The Guild already permits some forms of Necromancy. The 'Schools' of magicka are, as we know, artificial constructs, originally formulated by Vanus Galerion to divide and thereby simplify study. They have changed many times throughout the years, but at their heart, every Master knows, they are all linked together. When a student of Conjuration summons a guardian ghost, he is touching on the School of Necromancy. When a student of Enchantment uses a trapped soul, he too may be considered guilty of a Black Art. The School of Mysticism, as I have stated before, has some kinship with Necromancy as well. To state that students may not learn the ways of Necromancy is to stifle common skills in the other, more historically legitimate Schools of the Guild.

(Against Necromancy) Counter-Argument by Master Karlyss: Yes, the Schools are intertwined, but the standard spells of each School have passed the proof of time. We know that a student of Mysticism, properly instructed, will not be permanently harmed by his experience. In many ways, it is a question of extremes - how far we would permit our studies to take us. Necromancy by its nature relies on the practitioner going further into the darkness than is wise, virtually guaranteeing his destruction. It has no place in the Mages Guild.

There may be more than I can search for right now as I have limited time. Nevertheless, I suspect I was merely remembering the connection between mysticism and Mannimarco as he was developing necromancy.

Gilvoth wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Ildun wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

In this game i haven't encountered black soul gem, and i get enough filled soul gem from the dungeons to ignore the soul trap ability.

But in ESO, you don't need black soul gem to trap man and mer soul, normal soul gem can do that, what if the filled soul gem you found is trapping sentient soul?

This is correct.
Pretty sure you can soul trap humanoids in eso in white gems.
Also one of the perks in the soul skill line have an chance of trapping souls automatic.
This is why you never run out of soul gems.

that should not be happening
breaks lore

Never tested it soul trap works on humanoids.
it should be simple enough to set an flag and don't let soul trapping work on them.
Never used soul trap sice back at launch there I don't think the passive was active or I was skill point starved so remember having to fill souls for pvp.

CS gems contain the souls of banned accounts

Recremen wrote: »

Hold up, other than Soul Trap, what other spells effects from Mysticism are Necromantic? The Absorb spells? What about when they get shifted over to the Restoration school in Oblivion? Or when Soul Trap gets shifted to Conjuration in Skyrim? IDK I'm 100% with you on Conjuration but totes not for Mysticism.

I understood what they said to mean something different.

It's not that mysticism and conjuration are necromantic. It's that necromancy relies heavily on those schools.

eg. necromancy uses conjuration, but that school also includes daedra summoning, which isn't necromantic.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mysticism

The art has been described as allowing a mage "to alter the nature of magic itself" and as involving "the manipulation of magical forces and boundaries to bypass the structures and limitations of the physical world." The spells in the school have their origins with the Psijic Order of Artaeum, who call their study the "Old Way", and the school has occasionally been referred to as the Way of the Psijic.

and...

Later, when Hannibal Traven, Archmage of the Mages Guild in the closing years of the Third Era, launched his investigation that led to Necromancy being banned in the Guild, an attempt was made by necromancers to involve Mysticism in the debate to protect their favored school.

The spells in the school can be divided into five main sections: transport spells, detection spells, absorption spells, reflection spells and "other". The Other spells work directly upon magical forces of the unseen world, with effects such as dispel, soul trap, and telekinesis. Absorption magic is often considered part of the college of Restoration rather than Mysticism.

Also.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Souls

While the precise nature of the soul is not known, it is considered to be a potent form of mystic energy. Soul Magic, Enchanting, Necromancy, Mysticism, and Conjuration all make use of this energy. Soul gems are the most common method of trapping souls, especially for enchanting, although items such as animus geodes can be used in some cases.

and defining necromancy...

Mortal souls can become trapped on Nirn, where they linger as undead.