Besides stamwhip what offensive stam morph do stamdks need

Ragnarock41 · April 2019

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

Better passives and turning Stone fist in an Earth spike that shoots up from the ground to impale your enemy. Does 330% more damage to the target when below 25% health.

While we're at it, make GDB scale off max stam and weapon damage too.

Its kind of ridicilous that GDB underperforms against dark cloak. the supposed tanky brawler class gets a worse self heal than stamblades get. But I guess giving nightblade the weak version of something would be unacceptable by community standarts.

Dark Cloak is a HoT vs GDB being a more burst oriented heal. GDB gets you out of danger quickly, Dark Cloak does not. Dark Cloak grants Minor Protection vs GDB giving Minor Vitality/Major Endurance.

It's kind of ridiculous that you try to compare the 2 and come to the conclusion that Dark Cloak is somehow better. They both have positive and negative aspects to them and neither one has a clear cut advantage over the other that would make one "better" than the other so please, keep the NB bias out of the discussion.

You can objectively compare the two and see that dark cloak heals better unless you stack around 40k hp, at which point you stop being a stamina character and more of a troll tank. There is no NB bias in this, dark cloak is objectively the better heal. One scales from missing hp, other scales from total hp, the difference in actual practicality between the two is massive.

Edit: I put minor vitality and minor protection at equal value, however as mentioned GDB is a panic heal meant to be used on low hp, Dark cloak is a heal over time you stack on top of vigor etc to prevent your hp from going low. Minor protection makes perfect sense on dark cloak, however I could not say the same for GDB. Minor vitality and major endurance is surely great passives(the latter one I get %100 uptime from potions anyways), however what am I gonna do with these on a skill thats meant to be used at execute range? It simply does not fit.

Silver_Strider · April 2019

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

Better passives and turning Stone fist in an Earth spike that shoots up from the ground to impale your enemy. Does 330% more damage to the target when below 25% health.

While we're at it, make GDB scale off max stam and weapon damage too.

Its kind of ridicilous that GDB underperforms against dark cloak. the supposed tanky brawler class gets a worse self heal than stamblades get. But I guess giving nightblade the weak version of something would be unacceptable by community standarts.

Dark Cloak is a HoT vs GDB being a more burst oriented heal. GDB gets you out of danger quickly, Dark Cloak does not. Dark Cloak grants Minor Protection vs GDB giving Minor Vitality/Major Endurance.

It's kind of ridiculous that you try to compare the 2 and come to the conclusion that Dark Cloak is somehow better. They both have positive and negative aspects to them and neither one has a clear cut advantage over the other that would make one "better" than the other so please, keep the NB bias out of the discussion.

You can objectively compare the two and see that dark cloak heals better unless you stack around 40k hp, at which point you stop being a stamina character and more of a troll tank. There is no NB bias in this, dark cloak is objectively the better heal. One scales from missing hp, other scales from total hp, the difference in actual practicality between the two is massive.

There's also situations in which GDB is better than Dark Cloak. If you are defiled, Dark Cloak heals for less than GDB under similar conditions. If you need more than 1 heal after GDB/Dark Cloak, GDB grants you a 20% increase to healing received via Minor Vitality+Burning Heal.

Both skills have their positives and negatives but neither skill is superior to one another, they're just different.

Ragnarock41 · April 2019

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

Better passives and turning Stone fist in an Earth spike that shoots up from the ground to impale your enemy. Does 330% more damage to the target when below 25% health.

While we're at it, make GDB scale off max stam and weapon damage too.

Its kind of ridicilous that GDB underperforms against dark cloak. the supposed tanky brawler class gets a worse self heal than stamblades get. But I guess giving nightblade the weak version of something would be unacceptable by community standarts.

Dark Cloak is a HoT vs GDB being a more burst oriented heal. GDB gets you out of danger quickly, Dark Cloak does not. Dark Cloak grants Minor Protection vs GDB giving Minor Vitality/Major Endurance.

It's kind of ridiculous that you try to compare the 2 and come to the conclusion that Dark Cloak is somehow better. They both have positive and negative aspects to them and neither one has a clear cut advantage over the other that would make one "better" than the other so please, keep the NB bias out of the discussion.

You can objectively compare the two and see that dark cloak heals better unless you stack around 40k hp, at which point you stop being a stamina character and more of a troll tank. There is no NB bias in this, dark cloak is objectively the better heal. One scales from missing hp, other scales from total hp, the difference in actual practicality between the two is massive.

There's also situations in which GDB is better than Dark Cloak. If you are defiled, Dark Cloak heals for less than GDB under similar conditions. If you need more than 1 heal after GDB/Dark Cloak, GDB grants you a 20% increase to healing received via Minor Vitality+Burning Heal.

This is clear bias since you don't consider everything, you just claim that one is virtually superior without any real facts, just opinions you try to pass off as facts.

1.Burning heart is provided by spiked armor anyways and is a class passive, not something tied to the ability itself.
2.Both abilities are affected by defile in the same way. Minor vitality in second cast will let you negate some of the effects of a defile however minor protection will also mitigate damage. And your mitigation automaticly amplifies the value of your heals and with the intended way dark cloak is supposed to be used, you should have minor protection when you need it. HOTs are used before you take a lot of damage, not after.
3.The only way you're gonna achieve higher healing with green dragon blood is if you combine GDB with igneous shield to take advantage of major mending, which is what Dk tanks do to get bigger heals out of it. However that costs about 8400 magicka, which isn't exactly cheap.

I do consider a lot of things and I was a PvE tank in the past so I know how good GDB is as a tank heal. I also know that dark cloak is simply better by itself, but just a good heal does not make a good tank hence why you don't see Nb tanks around.

I did list a lot of facts to you but you are refusing to see them. Fair enough, I'll explain it to you like you're in high school.

I did compare GDB to Dark cloak side to side however simply listing two similar abilities and telling one has this, other has that does not do it justice. That is why I looked into potential situations where GDB would be used and then did the same for dark cloak. And its how I came to the conclusion that dark deal is much more of a practical skill.

Obviously the context here was PvP since I mentioned stamblades and brawlers in my first comment, , so that means PvE is out of the equation for this discussion.

So with all that in mind, Its just common sense that as a Nightblade when I put dark cloak on my bar, I'm gonna use it in the same way I use vigor, and use both obviously because stam meta involves stacking heal over times. I'll be mitigating the damage I take and get healing over time, preventing myself from getting down to execute range, Which is the idea. The skill works well and max hp scaling means you only need about 25-30k hp to get very good value out of this skill.

All in all for a class meant to be a rogue and deal very high damage , having such a good heal is a luxury. It also helps that stamblades don't have too many things to dump their magicka on, Its either cloak or fear, or both. At around 3600 cost you can easily afford this heal. However because of how strong the other morph is, people usually don't use dark cloak unless they specificly want a brawler build.

So how about the dragon blood then?

Before comparing these two Its important to remember that coagulating blood is the other morph, that actually scales with magicka&SD on top of getting bonus healing based on missing hp, making it a good magDk heal.(no minor vitality on this morph) . People often don't know the difference.

But GDB only scales from missing HP, making it an ideal tank heal and thats what its used for. It requires a Very high HP pool to be utilized due to high cost and missing hp scaling, and this my friend is FACT, not opinion.

So If you plan to use a DK with very high hp GDB is a very good heal, but otherwise there aren't many ways you can utilize this and because you're only supposed to use this on low hp and it has a very high cost it makes it unwise to use this for the buffs it offers. Its similar to how expedition feels on empowering chains. Its not that the buffs are bad, Its just out of place. And thats what I mean when I say its not as practical.

All of this brings us to my final point: sDK as a mainly brawler class, lacks any type of class heal actually meant for them, however stamblade a rogue class, meant to deal high damage and stuff, comes with a similar but better, more practical one.

StamDK healing is strong thanks to major mending and burning heart, both of which doesn't require dragon blood (thank god) Yet even with all these crazy healing multipliers, with potions that give major vitality , Dks still never, and I mean NEVER use this skill, yet you'll see dark cloak being used in dueling events by stamblades, which is also FACT, not opinion.

And yes, before you mention a stamDk can simply grab Rally for a burst heal , just like how a stamblade can simply slot uppercut or heroic slash. That goes both ways.

Anti_Virus · April 2019

Dark talons - This ability and its morphs now grant minor maim debuff

Choking Talons Morph - Morph deals poison damage and cost stamina

Deep breath(Morph Of inhale) This morph now deals poison damage and cost stamina

Hardened armor - this morph now deals poison damage on damage returns

World in Ruin - increases your poison and fire damage by 6%

Warmth- adds 100% ardent flame dot damage to targets below 25%

Burning heart - 15% healing received while a draconic ability is active, in addition your healing received is increased the lower your health capped at (25% below 25%)

Elder dragon - flat number for health recovery starts at 132 per slotted

Iron Skin - added a new condition interrupting an enemy reduces the cost of your next block by 8%

Scaled armor- adds 2000 physical and spell resistance.

Molten Weapons - this ability and its morphs grant major brutality and Sorcery

Igneous weapons - this morph adds 10% resource return on heavy attacks.

Magma Armor - and its morphs cost is reduced to 150 ultimate (also please fix the bug in pvp where you take full damage instead of capping damage at 3%)

Shifting standard - Renamed Battle standard, reworked the mechanics, standard deals 25% less damage but stays on your back(PBAoE) duration is capped at 15 seconds

All I got for now might edit further if better things pop up.

[edited]

Sleep724 · April 2019

I was hoping for physical and spell pen passive but since Necros got that lets have a passive that increase physical and magic damage and not just flame and poison.

Silver_Strider · April 2019

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

Better passives and turning Stone fist in an Earth spike that shoots up from the ground to impale your enemy. Does 330% more damage to the target when below 25% health.

While we're at it, make GDB scale off max stam and weapon damage too.

Its kind of ridicilous that GDB underperforms against dark cloak. the supposed tanky brawler class gets a worse self heal than stamblades get. But I guess giving nightblade the weak version of something would be unacceptable by community standarts.

Dark Cloak is a HoT vs GDB being a more burst oriented heal. GDB gets you out of danger quickly, Dark Cloak does not. Dark Cloak grants Minor Protection vs GDB giving Minor Vitality/Major Endurance.

It's kind of ridiculous that you try to compare the 2 and come to the conclusion that Dark Cloak is somehow better. They both have positive and negative aspects to them and neither one has a clear cut advantage over the other that would make one "better" than the other so please, keep the NB bias out of the discussion.

You can objectively compare the two and see that dark cloak heals better unless you stack around 40k hp, at which point you stop being a stamina character and more of a troll tank. There is no NB bias in this, dark cloak is objectively the better heal. One scales from missing hp, other scales from total hp, the difference in actual practicality between the two is massive.

There's also situations in which GDB is better than Dark Cloak. If you are defiled, Dark Cloak heals for less than GDB under similar conditions. If you need more than 1 heal after GDB/Dark Cloak, GDB grants you a 20% increase to healing received via Minor Vitality+Burning Heal.

This is clear bias since you don't consider everything, you just claim that one is virtually superior without any real facts, just opinions you try to pass off as facts.

1.Burning heart is provided by spiked armor anyways and is a class passive, not something tied to the ability itself.
2.Both abilities are affected by defile in the same way. Minor vitality in second cast will let you negate some of the effects of a defile however minor protection will also mitigate damage. And your mitigation automaticly amplifies the value of your heals and with the intended way dark cloak is supposed to be used, you should have minor protection when you need it. HOTs are used before you take a lot of damage, not after.
3.The only way you're gonna achieve higher healing with green dragon blood is if you combine GDB with igneous shield to take advantage of major mending, which is what Dk tanks do to get bigger heals out of it. However that costs about 8400 magicka, which isn't exactly cheap.

I do consider a lot of things and I was a PvE tank in the past so I know how good GDB is as a tank heal. I also know that dark cloak is simply better by itself, but just a good heal does not make a good tank hence why you don't see Nb tanks around.

I did list a lot of facts to you but you are refusing to see them. Fair enough, I'll explain it to you like you're in high school.

I did compare GDB to Dark cloak side to side however simply listing two similar abilities and telling one has this, other has that does not do it justice. That is why I looked into potential situations where GDB would be used and then did the same for dark cloak. And its how I came to the conclusion that dark deal is much more of a practical skill.

Obviously the context here was PvP since I mentioned stamblades and brawlers in my first comment, , so that means PvE is out of the equation for this discussion.

So with all that in mind, Its just common sense that as a Nightblade when I put dark cloak on my bar, I'm gonna use it in the same way I use vigor, and use both obviously because stam meta involves stacking heal over times. I'll be mitigating the damage I take and get healing over time, preventing myself from getting down to execute range, Which is the idea. The skill works well and max hp scaling means you only need about 25-30k hp to get very good value out of this skill.

All in all for a class meant to be a rogue and deal very high damage , having such a good heal is a luxury. It also helps that stamblades don't have too many things to dump their magicka on, Its either cloak or fear, or both. At around 3600 cost you can easily afford this heal. However because of how strong the other morph is, people usually don't use dark cloak unless they specificly want a brawler build.

So how about the dragon blood then?

Before comparing these two Its important to remember that coagulating blood is the other morph, that actually scales with magicka&SD on top of getting bonus healing based on missing hp, making it a good magDk heal.(no minor vitality on this morph) . People often don't know the difference.

But GDB only scales from missing HP, making it an ideal tank heal and thats what its used for. It requires a Very high HP pool to be utilized due to high cost and missing hp scaling, and this my friend is FACT, not opinion.

So If you plan to use a DK with very high hp GDB is a very good heal, but otherwise there aren't many ways you can utilize this and because you're only supposed to use this on low hp and it has a very high cost it makes it unwise to use this for the buffs it offers. Its similar to how expedition feels on empowering chains. Its not that the buffs are bad, Its just out of place. And thats what I mean when I say its not as practical.

All of this brings us to my final point: sDK as a mainly brawler class, lacks any type of class heal actually meant for them, however stamblade a rogue class, meant to deal high damage and stuff, comes with a similar but better, more practical one.

StamDK healing is strong thanks to major mending and burning heart, both of which doesn't require dragon blood (thank god) Yet even with all these crazy healing multipliers, with potions that give major vitality , Dks still never, and I mean NEVER use this skill, yet you'll see dark cloak being used in dueling events by stamblades, which is also FACT, not opinion.

And yes, before you mention a stamDk can simply grab Rally for a burst heal , just like how a stamblade can simply slot uppercut or heroic slash. That goes both ways.

Let me break down my argument now.

23 seconds of Minor Vitality vs 3 seconds of Minor Protection. If you're keeping Dark Cloak on CD for the Minor Protection, the cost is clearly in DK's favor since they don't need to spam GDB to keep their Minor buff. Then we have to consider, Stamblade has no way of recovering its magic outside of pots. StamDK does via the Battle Roar passive so while GDB cost slightly more than Dark Cloak (Costs are 3780 for D.Cloak and 4320 for GDB at rank 4), a StamDK would be able to get more usage out of their magic pool than a Stamblade so the cost isn't much of an argument, especially since the difference is less than 600 magic; that's NOTHING.

In terms of practical application, yes Dark Cloak is more practical but GDB also has its merits in that, because Minor Vit lasts for so long, it will ultimately pay off in terms of offering more Healing than Dark Cloak when coupled with other commonly used healing abilities like Vigor/Rally as well as increasing the healing from the Battle Roar passive and potions.

Then, we look at the classes themselves. You said it yourself, DK has good healing because it has Major Mending and Burning Heart, it doesn't NEED GDB. NB, does not have ANYTHING to help its healing outside of 1 passive in Siphoning that a Stamblade can't make much use of. Is it not then completely within logic to think that the reason NB uses Dark Cloak is because they don't really have any other good alternative option like StamDK does? Is it not within logic to think that GDB isn't so much a bad skill as it is simply needless overkill on a StamDK?

I'm not saying Dark Cloak isn't a good skill, it's a great skill, I just don't see it as being better than GDB either but I digress, we've already derailed the topic enough so I say we agree to disagree and leave it at that.

juhislihis19 · April 2019

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Dark talons Morph- This ability and its morphs now grant minor maim debuff

Choking Talons Morph - Morph deals poison damage and cost stamina

Deep breath(Morph Of inhale) This morph now deals poison damage and cost stamina

Hardened armor - this morph now deals poison damage on damage returns

World in Ruin - increases your poison and fire damage by 6%

Warmth- adds 150% ardent flame dot damage to targets below 25% This seems little excessive, as Venomous Claws already does 12% more damage every 2s. Decrease the percentage IMO, even 50% is quite a lot

Burning heart - 15% healing received while a draconic ability is active your healing received in increased the lower your health capped at (25% below 25%)

Elder dragon - flat number for health recovery can start at 132 per slotted

Iron Skin - added a new condition interrupting an enemy reduces the cost of your next block by 8%

Scaled armor- adds 3300 physical resistance Maybe make it 1650 for both Physical and Spell Resistance?

Molten Weapons - this ability and its morphs grant major brutality and Sorcery

Igneous weapons - this morph adds 10% resource return on heavy attacks.

All I got for now might edit further if better things pop up.

Yes, keep them suggestions coming!

I would also reduce the cost of Corrosive Armor to 175. At the moment the cost is same as Permafrost, which does a lot more damage, stuns and gives the protection to allies as well.

Davadin · April 2019

i'd put corrosive at 150. it's a self buff that only last 10 sec. does nothing to ur ally and still require you to follow up with your own attack rotation to make an impact (a.k.a. if ur stunned/rooted/feared u can't attack and utilize Corrosive effectively)

Anti_Virus · April 2019

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Dark talons Morph- This ability and its morphs now grant minor maim debuff

Choking Talons Morph - Morph deals poison damage and cost stamina

Deep breath(Morph Of inhale) This morph now deals poison damage and cost stamina

Hardened armor - this morph now deals poison damage on damage returns

World in Ruin - increases your poison and fire damage by 6%

Warmth- adds 150% ardent flame dot damage to targets below 25% This seems little excessive, as Venomous Claws already does 12% more damage every 2s. Decrease the percentage IMO, even 50% is quite a lot

Burning heart - 15% healing received while a draconic ability is active your healing received in increased the lower your health capped at (25% below 25%)

Elder dragon - flat number for health recovery can start at 132 per slotted

Iron Skin - added a new condition interrupting an enemy reduces the cost of your next block by 8%

Scaled armor- adds 3300 physical resistance Maybe make it 1650 for both Physical and Spell Resistance?

Molten Weapons - this ability and its morphs grant major brutality and Sorcery

Igneous weapons - this morph adds 10% resource return on heavy attacks.

All I got for now might edit further if better things pop up.

Yes, keep them suggestions coming!

I would also reduce the cost of Corrosive Armor to 175. At the moment the cost is same as Permafrost, which does a lot more damage, stuns and gives the protection to allies as well.

I re-edited my post.

psychotic13 · April 2019

BoiledEgg wrote: »

- give inhale a stam morph ( it synergizes really good with take flight and reverse slice )

- make stone giant a stam morph and make it either a melee or ranged cc ( kinda like binding javelin ) since no one uses this
morph ( destructive reach/clench is better )

- make wrecking blow an instant cast and reduce the dmg so we have a nice spammable (this also helps stamsorc and brings
more variety to other classes and maybe helps 2h in pve aswell )

Stam morph of inhale would actually be awesome, and that alone would be enough imo.

Leave dizzy as it is though, i play StamDK and Stamsorc and id rather keep it the same, the burst off that followed by an ult is what secures the most kills for us. You have puncture/heroic for a spammable anyway and theyre both great skills.

Davadin · April 2019

i wanna stam-Talon....

BoiledEgg · April 2019

psychotic13 wrote: »

BoiledEgg wrote: »

- give inhale a stam morph ( it synergizes really good with take flight and reverse slice )

- make stone giant a stam morph and make it either a melee or ranged cc ( kinda like binding javelin ) since no one uses this
morph ( destructive reach/clench is better )

- make wrecking blow an instant cast and reduce the dmg so we have a nice spammable (this also helps stamsorc and brings
more variety to other classes and maybe helps 2h in pve aswell )

Stam morph of inhale would actually be awesome, and that alone would be enough imo.

Leave dizzy as it is though, i play StamDK and Stamsorc and id rather keep it the same, the burst off that followed by an ult is what secures the most kills for us. You have puncture/heroic for a spammable anyway and theyre both great skills.

dizzy swing would remain the same for those who want to use it, I only suggested a change to wrecking blow

TrinityBreaker · April 2019

psychotic13 wrote: »

BoiledEgg wrote: »

- give inhale a stam morph ( it synergizes really good with take flight and reverse slice )

- make stone giant a stam morph and make it either a melee or ranged cc ( kinda like binding javelin ) since no one uses this
morph ( destructive reach/clench is better )

- make wrecking blow an instant cast and reduce the dmg so we have a nice spammable (this also helps stamsorc and brings
more variety to other classes and maybe helps 2h in pve aswell )

Stam morph of inhale would actually be awesome, and that alone would be enough imo.

Leave dizzy as it is though, i play StamDK and Stamsorc and id rather keep it the same, the burst off that followed by an ult is what secures the most kills for us. You have puncture/heroic for a spammable anyway and theyre both great skills.

Not everyone wants to use those skills or any weapon skills as spammables though.

juhislihis19 · April 2019

Davadin wrote: »

i'd put corrosive at 150. it's a self buff that only last 10 sec. does nothing to ur ally and still require you to follow up with your own attack rotation to make an impact (a.k.a. if ur stunned/rooted/feared u can't attack and utilize Corrosive effectively)

Btw, does anyone know will the DOT from this skill affect multiple enemies around or just one? 150 ulti would be fine for me as well because it means less resources for DK's.

Beffagorn · April 2019

Hardned Armor reworked into a useful stam ability. I personally would like something that reduces or cleanses DoT damage, but it can be whatever.

Stam Talons or Stam Inhale.

Shifting Standard now baseline, add a poison morph to replace it.

Elder Dragon giving a small amount of stam and mag regen, remove instant melee attack range conponent.

Absolutely no stam Stonefist. I don't want to be an idiot throwing rocks all day. One of the ugliest skills in-game

No stam whip both morphs are needed by magdks, instead rework Wrecking Blow to be a spammable and give dks a passive related to weapon skills. SnB and DW already have a spammable.

juhislihis19 · April 2019

Beffagorn wrote: »

Hardned Armor reworked into a useful stam ability. I personally would like something that reduces or cleanses DoT damage, but it can be whatever.

Stam Talons or Stam Inhale.

Elder Dragon giving a small amount of stam and mag regen, remove instant melee attack range conponent.

Absolutely no stam Stonefist. I don't want to be an idiot throwing rocks all day. One of the ugliest skills in-game

No stam whip both morphs are needed by magdks, instead rework Wrecking Blow to be a spammable and give dks a passive related to weapon skills. SnB and DW already have a spammable.

I'd add Minor Endurance to stamina morph of Hardened Armor.

Stam Inhale would solve the missing AOE problem

Stonefist, agreed. It's a horrible skill throughout!

Instant Wrecking Blow would resolve the spam issue IMO.

Davadin · April 2019

Beffagorn wrote: »

No stam whip both morphs are needed by magdks, instead rework Wrecking Blow to be a spammable and give dks a passive related to weapon skills. SnB and DW already have a spammable.

i want a stam skill WITHIN the class, to give stamDK its own identity. Not something that every class can use.

and reduce cast time sure. reduce damage ok. but not ZERO cast. WB gives buff to the next light attack. even if u cut the damage to half, using WB + LA cancel + Executioner + LA cancel, that's some serious combo....

(i know, i used to do that in Cyro from stealth back in the days they haven't nerfed Expert Hunter that gives 100% crit from stealth)