Not a tank or healer? No pledges for you!

Nemesis7884 · April 2019

i am much more annoyed by the fake tanks and fake healers to be honest - as a Damage dealer your queue times are between 30 and 60 minutes - just to end up in a group with fakers and you can do it right all over again...

There should be some sort of penality if you fake being a tank or healer...but i don't know how you could check this reliably

PouletRico · April 2019

Join the Server Maintenance guild (community guild made by @Alcast), there is always a bunch a players looking for pledges. Literally one message and you have a group ready to go.

Kadoin · April 2019

Myrkgrav wrote: »

This isn't a reward issue, it's a no one wants to heal or tank (ie support) because A) they lack the skill, they don't want to suffer the verbal abuse when the sub 10k output DDs keep wiping and want to blame it on support roles instead of their crap performance.

Unless I'm bored and looking for entertainment, there's little to no reward for me to use dungeon finder as a tank or healer.

I go somewhere because I want gear, entertainment, or something else. If I'm not getting that (namely gear), I won't run the dungeon more than once. Let's not start discussing how much time is wasted when the group DPS is low, or what happens when people don't want to try an alternate way to beat the DPS check (they exist).

All in all, it's really not worth it.

Myrkgrav · April 2019

Kadoin wrote: »

Myrkgrav wrote: »

This isn't a reward issue, it's a no one wants to heal or tank (ie support) because A) they lack the skill, they don't want to suffer the verbal abuse when the sub 10k output DDs keep wiping and want to blame it on support roles instead of their crap performance.

Unless I'm bored and looking for entertainment, there's little to no reward for me to use dungeon finder as a tank or healer.

I go somewhere because I want gear, entertainment, or something else. If I'm not getting that (namely gear), I won't run the dungeon more than once. Let's not start discussing how much time is wasted when the group DPS is low, or what happens when people don't want to try an alternate way to beat the DPS check (they exist).

All in all, it's really not worth it.

I mean, really is that not why anyone queues for dungeons? This thread is about Pledges, so the implication is people want the reward, ie the keys or crystals. Most people don't queue for dungeons just for their own amusement, they do it because they want the daily random bonus, gear, or for pledges.

Alucardo · April 2019

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

i am much more annoyed by the fake tanks and fake healers to be honest - as a Damage dealer your queue times are between 30 and 60 minutes - just to end up in a group with fakers and you can do it right all over again...

There should be some sort of penality if you fake being a tank or healer...but i don't know how you could check this reliably

This seems to be quite common. When I queued as tank yesterday, I was put into a half completed dungeon. They had kicked the last tank because he refused to taunt the bosses and people were dropping like flies

Gretzel · April 2019

kathandira wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

It's quite common in any MMO to get insta queued for dungeons if you're a tank or healer, and have a bit of a wait if you're damage. However, in ESO this problem is even worse. As a DD you can spend up to 30 minutes in a queue, and if it's mid afternoon you can just forget it. I gave up yesterday, specced for tank and got a hit in 6 seconds.
This is a huge issue, because the dungeon finder is filled with 17k health damage dealers pretending to be tanks just to get their pledges done, but they are usually kicked for not holding agro, not pulling in ranged trash mobs, getting one shot, or using dawnbreakers when war horns were expected.
So in reality there are 2 problems: Occasionally getting a terrible tank, or not getting your pledges done because you can't find a group as a DD.

But what can be done to rectify this? Why is it so hard to queue as DD? The answer to the second question is quite simple really. The rewards are jank, and as you've seen these dungeons hundreds of times you don't want to run them, especially as a boring tank.
My suggestion would be to add better rewards for running pledge dungeons, even after you've already completed it once. It could be something like a few transmute crystals at the end (for veteran only), but obviously cap it after a certain amount so they can't just farm all day long. But this may help people queue more than once, and make finding people for pledges much easier.

If you have any ideas, let us know!

Be part of the solution. Make a Tank or Healer, and run your dailies on those.

Not enough people play these rolls, and we often see DPS asking for a fix. But the only fix really is for those DPS players to help by putting more tank and healers into the queue. Take one for the community and do your part.

Signed,
Player with multiple of each roll

Its not "taking one for the community". Tanking and healing is awesome and a lot more fun and requires more brainwork than just putting ona specific set and following a certain rotation.

david_m_18b16_ESO · April 2019

There are other MMO's that havent a shortage of tanks/healers like in ESO/WoW. But their mecanic are differents in a way that ESO can't fit while 1 thing could be changed in ESO to help it. I''ll take the EQ,EQ2 and Vanguard examples.

Only 4 group member is BAD. It lets just 2 spot for DPS. The Everquest series and Vanguard was made around groups of 6 players. Depending on the content and the game group would been made of 1tank, 1-2 healers, 0-2 support and 2-4 DPS. If you take everquest 1 and 2, beeing a tank is even the hardest class to get a group at times but they are also the in the top soloing/farming class.

ESO have the support role given to tank and healers so having group of 5-6 players would add 1-2 spot for damage dealer and would greatly help the queue time.

Group of 4 players in this game make no sense, since you have only half the spot left for damage dealer and trials have about 2/3 of its team beeing DPS.

Alucardo · April 2019

Gretzel wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

It's quite common in any MMO to get insta queued for dungeons if you're a tank or healer, and have a bit of a wait if you're damage. However, in ESO this problem is even worse. As a DD you can spend up to 30 minutes in a queue, and if it's mid afternoon you can just forget it. I gave up yesterday, specced for tank and got a hit in 6 seconds.
This is a huge issue, because the dungeon finder is filled with 17k health damage dealers pretending to be tanks just to get their pledges done, but they are usually kicked for not holding agro, not pulling in ranged trash mobs, getting one shot, or using dawnbreakers when war horns were expected.
So in reality there are 2 problems: Occasionally getting a terrible tank, or not getting your pledges done because you can't find a group as a DD.

But what can be done to rectify this? Why is it so hard to queue as DD? The answer to the second question is quite simple really. The rewards are jank, and as you've seen these dungeons hundreds of times you don't want to run them, especially as a boring tank.
My suggestion would be to add better rewards for running pledge dungeons, even after you've already completed it once. It could be something like a few transmute crystals at the end (for veteran only), but obviously cap it after a certain amount so they can't just farm all day long. But this may help people queue more than once, and make finding people for pledges much easier.

If you have any ideas, let us know!

Be part of the solution. Make a Tank or Healer, and run your dailies on those.

Not enough people play these rolls, and we often see DPS asking for a fix. But the only fix really is for those DPS players to help by putting more tank and healers into the queue. Take one for the community and do your part.

Signed,
Player with multiple of each roll

Tanking and healing is awesome and a lot more fun and requires more brainwork than just putting ona specific set and following a certain rotation.

For end game PvE like trials, this is absolutely true. For basic pledges you can go autopilot while holding down block and taunting.

Gretzel · April 2019

Myrkgrav wrote: »

This isn't a reward issue, it's a no one wants to heal or tank (ie support) because A) they lack the skill, they don't want to suffer the verbal abuse when the sub 10k output DDs keep wiping and want to blame it on support roles instead of their crap performance.

I havent had any awful players blame my tanking/healing when they make a stupid decision themselves since I quit league of legends. Maybe its because I'm an extremely aggressive healer who won't take lip.

MartiniDaniels · April 2019

Svenja wrote: »

The thing is, on a support role, there is little to no incentive to use the group finder, as you already said.
As a healer, I never run dungeons via group finder. And I always warn new players who play as thanks or healers to do that and recommend that they ask in their guilds first.
My dps as a healer is not good enough to carry a group through a veteran dungeon, and more often than not, I got fake DDs in my group in the past.
When I deal ~60-70% of the group's damage just by casting elemental blockade and spear shards, it's a really bad thing and it happened way too often. I don't have the will or the time anymore to spend 90 minutes with only one dungeon. (I am not exaggerating here. A 90-mins run of spindleclutch 2, where group (!!) DPS was 10.5k on blood spawn, with me as the healer dealing 5.8k of that, was the run when I decided to never queue random on my healer again. I had to respec to DD after two or three wipes on blood spawn because apparently, you need around 13-14k group dps to not wipe to his enrage, but then the DDs insta-died because of a lack of heals..)

When I am running on a DD, I can deal with a fake tank or a fake healer easily. I slot self heal or a taunt.
But I don't have a way to deal with fake DDs when on a healer without completely changing my complete gear, all my skills and even CP, and that keeps me from using the group finder.
The skill level of the average ESO player is incredibly low, so for experienced people there should be some kind of reward when they use the group finder.

I don't know what's the problem to use GF on support role. HM complete rate is like 95% even with noobs if it is non-dlc vet.. and for dlc HM you need skilled people anyway, group finder or guild doesn't matter.

Kikke · April 2019

1 tank 1 healer 7 DDs que at the same time, 1 tank 1 healers 2 DDs gets a group.

Now you have 5 DDs still waiting, 5mins goes and a new tank+healer queues up

3 DDs left waiting, another healer DD and tank team ques.

2 DDs left waiting. etc etc etc.

Only way to fix this for DDs is by having more tanks and healers que. and that wont just happend like that

kathandira · April 2019

Gretzel wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

It's quite common in any MMO to get insta queued for dungeons if you're a tank or healer, and have a bit of a wait if you're damage. However, in ESO this problem is even worse. As a DD you can spend up to 30 minutes in a queue, and if it's mid afternoon you can just forget it. I gave up yesterday, specced for tank and got a hit in 6 seconds.
This is a huge issue, because the dungeon finder is filled with 17k health damage dealers pretending to be tanks just to get their pledges done, but they are usually kicked for not holding agro, not pulling in ranged trash mobs, getting one shot, or using dawnbreakers when war horns were expected.
So in reality there are 2 problems: Occasionally getting a terrible tank, or not getting your pledges done because you can't find a group as a DD.

But what can be done to rectify this? Why is it so hard to queue as DD? The answer to the second question is quite simple really. The rewards are jank, and as you've seen these dungeons hundreds of times you don't want to run them, especially as a boring tank.
My suggestion would be to add better rewards for running pledge dungeons, even after you've already completed it once. It could be something like a few transmute crystals at the end (for veteran only), but obviously cap it after a certain amount so they can't just farm all day long. But this may help people queue more than once, and make finding people for pledges much easier.

If you have any ideas, let us know!

Be part of the solution. Make a Tank or Healer, and run your dailies on those.

Not enough people play these rolls, and we often see DPS asking for a fix. But the only fix really is for those DPS players to help by putting more tank and healers into the queue. Take one for the community and do your part.

Signed,
Player with multiple of each roll

Its not "taking one for the community". Tanking and healing is awesome and a lot more fun and requires more brainwork than just putting ona specific set and following a certain rotation.

I'm with you. I main a Healer, and also have a pretty good Warden Tank, and several DPS. I really enjoy healing and tanking.

But those who insist on having 8x DPS characters should consider creating a Tank and/or Healer (And actually learning to play the role well).

I explain to my guild mates that it is best to play all roles if they want to master the game. There are 3 perspectives, and only seeing things from 1 doesn't teach you everything.

Kuramas9tails · April 2019

kathandira wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

It's quite common in any MMO to get insta queued for dungeons if you're a tank or healer, and have a bit of a wait if you're damage. However, in ESO this problem is even worse. As a DD you can spend up to 30 minutes in a queue, and if it's mid afternoon you can just forget it. I gave up yesterday, specced for tank and got a hit in 6 seconds.
This is a huge issue, because the dungeon finder is filled with 17k health damage dealers pretending to be tanks just to get their pledges done, but they are usually kicked for not holding agro, not pulling in ranged trash mobs, getting one shot, or using dawnbreakers when war horns were expected.
So in reality there are 2 problems: Occasionally getting a terrible tank, or not getting your pledges done because you can't find a group as a DD.

But what can be done to rectify this? Why is it so hard to queue as DD? The answer to the second question is quite simple really. The rewards are jank, and as you've seen these dungeons hundreds of times you don't want to run them, especially as a boring tank.
My suggestion would be to add better rewards for running pledge dungeons, even after you've already completed it once. It could be something like a few transmute crystals at the end (for veteran only), but obviously cap it after a certain amount so they can't just farm all day long. But this may help people queue more than once, and make finding people for pledges much easier.

If you have any ideas, let us know!

Be part of the solution. Make a Tank or Healer, and run your dailies on those.

Not enough people play these rolls, and we often see DPS asking for a fix. But the only fix really is for those DPS players to help by putting more tank and healers into the queue. Take one for the community and do your part.

Signed,
Player with multiple of each roll

Some people can't be the solution. Some people don't have time to do Undaunted on multiple characters and need to work on their main character.

This is why for some Vet content, I will queue as a tank or healer while being a DPS because it's simply not needed. This forum cries when there's a wait for a proper tank/healer but then cry when someone queues as the wrong role. ZOS can't fix this.

And what does everyone keep telling me on the forum that is stupid af in a lot of cases?

Oh yeah.

Adapt.

Browiseth · April 2019

the first step is that ZOS should make tank more enjoyable to play and stop nerfing it so more people will be attracted to the playstyle

Kuramas9tails · April 2019

Gretzel wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

It's quite common in any MMO to get insta queued for dungeons if you're a tank or healer, and have a bit of a wait if you're damage. However, in ESO this problem is even worse. As a DD you can spend up to 30 minutes in a queue, and if it's mid afternoon you can just forget it. I gave up yesterday, specced for tank and got a hit in 6 seconds.
This is a huge issue, because the dungeon finder is filled with 17k health damage dealers pretending to be tanks just to get their pledges done, but they are usually kicked for not holding agro, not pulling in ranged trash mobs, getting one shot, or using dawnbreakers when war horns were expected.
So in reality there are 2 problems: Occasionally getting a terrible tank, or not getting your pledges done because you can't find a group as a DD.

But what can be done to rectify this? Why is it so hard to queue as DD? The answer to the second question is quite simple really. The rewards are jank, and as you've seen these dungeons hundreds of times you don't want to run them, especially as a boring tank.
My suggestion would be to add better rewards for running pledge dungeons, even after you've already completed it once. It could be something like a few transmute crystals at the end (for veteran only), but obviously cap it after a certain amount so they can't just farm all day long. But this may help people queue more than once, and make finding people for pledges much easier.

If you have any ideas, let us know!

Be part of the solution. Make a Tank or Healer, and run your dailies on those.

Not enough people play these rolls, and we often see DPS asking for a fix. But the only fix really is for those DPS players to help by putting more tank and healers into the queue. Take one for the community and do your part.

Signed,
Player with multiple of each roll

Its not "taking one for the community". Tanking and healing is awesome and a lot more fun and requires more brainwork than just putting ona specific set and following a certain rotation.

I play all roles and I don't think it takes more "brainwork" to do one role more than another. It's simply just adjusting your focus.

I will admit though the one that causes me the most stress is healing simply because I am a sensitive person and if one person dies, I blame myself even though I know as a DPS, sometimes I die to my own stupidity, not because of the healer. It's my personality that causes me to stress.

david_m_18b16_ESO · April 2019

Kikke wrote: »

Only way to fix this for DDs is by having more tanks and healers que. and that wont just happend like that

Or incrase the group spot member. Even 5 members would help now imaging group content beeing balanced around 6 group members.

Twice the DPS spot per group the queue time would almost split in 2.

Giobonello · April 2019

One of the problems is that soloing as a tank is liquid ass. You can run maxed out medium gear and do other things to fine tune for DD when on your own, but it still pales in comparison to what a DD can do on their own. Now I know this problem exists in most major MMOs with the trinity system, but it's really pronounced in ESO.

Verbal_Earthworm · April 2019

I have 4 tanks and I don't bother doing dungeons with them much anymore.

Mostly due to pug issues.

david_m_18b16_ESO · April 2019

Giobonello wrote: »

One of the problems is that soloing as a tank is liquid ass. You can run maxed out medium gear and do other things to fine tune for DD when on your own, but it still pales in comparison to what a DD can do on their own. Now I know this problem exists in most major MMOs with the trinity system, but it's really pronounced in ESO.

I'D say most MMO that do not let you change roles. Example: SK are tank and not DPS, Cleric are healer and not tank etc. Usualy tanks are the best soloing class for some reason. So many players role a tank for soloing purpose then when they want to group they have to be tank.

Its kinda true for Rift too but since you can just switch of role at will, many players just farm as AoE tank and queue as DPS.

Even if tank would be turned into abslotue god at soloing/PvPing, nothing would prevent you to switch gear and queue as DPS if you don't anjoyed tanking.

Sythen88411 · April 2019

All you dps wanna dps and nvr wanna try the other side so sit in ur que and wait

Zacuel · April 2019

Dunno. Fake tank on norm is last resort. But I'd rather run as a real dd on vet.

Myrkgrav · April 2019

Gretzel wrote: »

Myrkgrav wrote: »

This isn't a reward issue, it's a no one wants to heal or tank (ie support) because A) they lack the skill, they don't want to suffer the verbal abuse when the sub 10k output DDs keep wiping and want to blame it on support roles instead of their crap performance.

I havent had any awful players blame my tanking/healing when they make a stupid decision themselves since I quit league of legends. Maybe its because I'm an extremely aggressive healer who won't take lip.

I mean I get it, but I'm tired of being told I'm not tanking correctly by DD. The lippiest characters are primadonna DD. I never hear healer give me sass. Probably because they understand how irritating it is. Now don't get me wrong, 99% of people are great, nice, etc. But the most extra people always seem to be DD.

Robo_Hobo · April 2019

More rewards wouldn't really help the problem I think, if anything it would either do nothing, or make it worse. If more people were trying to use the dungeon finder, then that would mean even more DPS would be trying to use the dungeon finder (and more healers and tanks too, but at a much lesser ratio)

I think something that could fix it would be either or all of things like:

-Incentivizing specifically, more Tanks and Healers to queue
-Incentivizing those tanks and healers to actually being tanks and healers
-Having a checkbox that you can mark to state that you don't mind if the dungeon doesn't have the right proportion of healer/tank/2 dps (thus, you could queue for dungeons that end up being 4 dps)

Also, making it more easy to switch from tank/healer setups without having to use gold to respec CP, attributes, or skill points. If the process between switching to a tank setup for dungeons and then going back to DPS afterwards for overland questing or whatever else, then I feel more would be willing to try out Tanking/healing.

KhajiitFelix · April 2019

A classic PvP cries about PvE

Edziu · April 2019

Alucardo wrote: »

My suggestion would be to add better rewards for running pledge dungeons, even after you've already completed it once. It could be something like a few transmute crystals at the end (for veteran only), but obviously cap it after a certain amount so they can't just farm all day long. But this may help people queue more than once, and make finding people for pledges much easier.

but then better would be to make those additional rewards for running as tank and/or healer as this wont sovle main problem becasue poeple would want to repeat it still as DD to farm it

so it would need to have adjusted to give those additional rewards maybe to someone who have taken the most damage in dung/got most agro, have done the most healing dung it it, somethink like this so it will prevent people to still take spots for DD for transmutation stones farm like you suggested

Kidgangster101 · April 2019

david_m_18b16_ESO wrote: »

There are other MMO's that havent a shortage of tanks/healers like in ESO/WoW. But their mecanic are differents in a way that ESO can't fit while 1 thing could be changed in ESO to help it. I''ll take the EQ,EQ2 and Vanguard examples.

Only 4 group member is BAD. It lets just 2 spot for DPS. The Everquest series and Vanguard was made around groups of 6 players. Depending on the content and the game group would been made of 1tank, 1-2 healers, 0-2 support and 2-4 DPS. If you take everquest 1 and 2, beeing a tank is even the hardest class to get a group at times but they are also the in the top soloing/farming class.

ESO have the support role given to tank and healers so having group of 5-6 players would add 1-2 spot for damage dealer and would greatly help the queue time.

Group of 4 players in this game make no sense, since you have only half the spot left for damage dealer and trials have about 2/3 of its team beeing DPS.

Yeah when I use to pug on my tank I would rather not get an extra 2 DPS to babysit (same with healers). A lot of people that pug on PS4 at least I have noticed are pretty bad when I'm on tank or healer. I've had a 810cp and a 320cp DPS with me in city of Ash 2. The instance took almost 2 hours to beat because the 320 was doing full good rotations but lacked a lot of damage due to low CP, and on top of that the NB 810 DPS was just spamming nothing but snipe the entire time. No aoe at all nothing. And stuff like this were it doesn't seem like people can meet a 10-15k DPS check happens a lot.

So your solution is to have the tank and healer possibly have to babysit more DPS that won't move out if aoe or would you even try to do good damage? What if the roles were reversed. What if you were a good DPS where you hit 40k parse. Now you are stuck as a solo DPS because you got paired with 3 players who either don't try or don't care about improving? Does it sound fun to have your healer and tank be 2nd and 3rd DPS because there is more DPS allowed in an instance?

eliisra · April 2019

It's frustrating to tank for a PUG with low dps, that's why tanks avoid it. It's also really easy to find a group with at least decent dps using zone chats and other sources.

The better a tank becomes in his role, the less likely he's gonna use the group-finder, becuse getting more offers from better groups that's more reliable in terms of finishing a pledge.

They would have to reward tanks specifically for using the group-finder, otherwise they'll keep joining groups outside of it. But doing that means fake-tanks gets rewarded for being shady, so dunno.

In addition to that, there's obviously not enough people playing tank, becuse it's bothersome doing it on your main character. You have to change a lot of things all the damn time, when switching between solo, PvP and PvE tanking. I'd gladly tank on all my characters, if the game had dual specs, so I didn't have to change CP, attributes, morphs etc.

Kidgangster101 · April 2019

eliisra wrote: »

It's frustrating to tank for a PUG with low dps, that's why tanks avoid it. It's also really easy to find a group with at least decent dps using zone chats and other sources.

The better a tank becomes in his role, the less likely he's gonna use the group-finder, becuse getting more offers from better groups that's more reliable in terms of finishing a pledge.

They would have to reward tanks specifically for using the group-finder, otherwise they'll keep joining groups outside of it. But doing that means fake-tanks gets rewarded for being shady, so dunno.

In addition to that, there's obviously not enough people playing tank, becuse it's bothersome doing it on your main character. You have to change a lot of things all the damn time, when switching between solo, PvP and PvE tanking. I'd gladly tank on all my characters, if the game had dual specs, so I didn't have to change CP, attributes, morphs etc.

This as well. It is really annoying to constantly change.

idk · April 2019

Part of the issue is in ESO we have 5 guilds to form groups from. Being that the low end of DPS, commonly found in GF groups, is much lower that in other games the decent tanks often avoid GF as they have no need for it or the troubles that come with it.

Regardless, the logical solution for a DD is to either have an of spec to tank or heal or form at least a partial group with one of the support roles. Logic really works in this situation.

Jaimeh · April 2019

I don't think it's just the fact that there are more DDs queueing, but also that the tanks and healers who are around don't like to use the group finder, because, as Svenja mentioned above, it's more difficult for them to carry a slow group, so they prefer to do content with premade groups, since there is always a demand for these roles. And if someone who can play multiple roles has to use the finder, they will likely join the queue with their DD toon, as there is less risk to get stuck due to low damage, so this compounds the problem with the long queues.