Low level BG griefing

Passerbye · March 2019

I know this has been a recurring topic, but here goes, can we please put a stop to people making alts with overperforming gear/strats just to stomp BG matches against new players?

I'm getting real tired of seeing werewolves everywhere left clicking and killing you in seconds. What's worse is that these people tend to bring along a pocket healer or another werewolf griefer just to make sure they don't lose.

Honestly, I felt dirty last week playing my pet sorc on BGs because it was like an I win button for the most part, I don't know what kind of kick these people get out of playing an even cheesier build but, so far whenever I try to do a BG on an alt to unlock vigor and caltrops, it has been an absolute nightmare.

I have encountered other strats than werewolfes occasionally but, this has been by far the most prominent issue I seem to keep encountering, likely due to how accessible and braindead it is. I'm pretty sure it is a combination of craft gear and not just the wolf itself but I'm not knowledgable enough regarding the gear they use so I'll refrain from making further comments on that.

While I do think this kind of people are some of the worst kinds of scum one encounters playing a video game, it is also a fact that we, people, have a tendency to abuse what can be abused given the opportunity, so as long as this is allowed, low level BG stomping will continue to exist.

Now that I got the rant out of my system, I can move on to my suggestions on the matter:

Accountwide MMR would solve a good portion of the issue, at least these people would be matched against similiar griefers or people who can actually counter them.

Another alternative, albeit a radical one, could be to simply not allow wolf shenanigans in low BGs, or tune the scaling on it in such a way that they don't light attack for higher than your actual skills while being able to heal completely back to full in seconds and being faster than a race car.

Last but not least, not gating crucial skills like vigor and to a lesser degree caltrops behind PvP can help soft fix the issue.

disintegr8 · March 2019

Another reason why I dislike (don't do) BG's and duels.

One of the benefits of leveling a crafter is to provide your 'newer' alts with decent gear/food/potions from day 1.
I'd also add that BG's are just small scale PVP, so I'd expect PVP skills to be utilized - kind of hard to stop it.

Passerbye · March 2019

disintegr8 wrote: »

Another reason why I dislike (don't do) BG's and duels.

One of the benefits of leveling a crafter is to provide your 'newer' alts with decent gear/food/potions from day 1.
I'd also add that BG's are just small scale PVP, so I'd expect PVP skills to be utilized - kind of hard to stop it.

I'm all for skills being utilized, as long as there is some skill involved, werewolf gameplay is the stupidest thing I've seen in this game. a genius spamming left click should not do more than 3 of your team mates utilizing their skills.

Then again I'm frustrated and salty atm so I might be biased.

I legit felt dirty playing my mag sorc pet build in BG after level 40 or so but oh boy was it satisfying to dongle on twink wolf losers with it. Encountering these players more and more makes me wanna go ahead and make another pet sorc just to ruin their day in return, but let's face it it would only add fuel to the fire and ruin more newbies' PvP experience instead of helping anyone.

Another solution could be adjusting BG rewards so that low level PvP is only done for the allience exp and as a training ground for actual pvp after 50.

Could also adjust stat upscaling system for pvp but, making all people have very similiar or uniform stats would really make PvP unappealing, so I don't think that'd be a feasible route to take.

Iskiab · March 2019

I agree with the OP. It’s been an issue in all pvp games. Those that can do, those that can’t look for easier opponents.

There’s always been players who try and grief new players in pvp.

wheem_ESO · March 2019

Passerbye wrote: »

Accountwide MMR would solve a good portion of the issue, at least these people would be matched against similiar griefers or people who can actually counter them.

I don't know that this would necessarily help all that much, at least not in the short term. While things might have changed in the year (or more?) since I've done any pre-50 Battlegrounds, the twinked out characters that I saw back then weren't anyone recognizable from the max-level games. That has been my experience in some other MMOs as well; some people who get annihilated in the max level games will instead cheese it up on lower level characters and stomp on legit newbies, and perhaps some good players that are lower level than they are, didn't invest in twink gear, etc...

So until these cheesy players run a lot of games, probably across various different twinked-out characters, they're going to be right in there with the newbs still, stomping all over them. 'Course, it'd also mean that all of my max level characters would be stuck with stupidly long queue times, and any pre-50 characters would get put in games with twinked out cheese builds (once they cheese long enough to get a high MMR).

Perhaps ZOS should either provide pre-50 characters with a large selection of free gear (even if it was only usable in Battlegrounds and Cyrodiil), or make some big changes to the way scaling works at that level. Something like giving everyone a baseline level of crit resist, counting all gear as being the same level as the character wearing it, treating all weapons as though they were gold quality, etc...This sort of scaling would still leave the twinks with a big advantage, but it may help out the legitimately new players enough that they could actually get a little practice in. As it stands right now, some new guy that's just using whatever green, non-set gear he finds while leveling up simply can't do any meaningful damage to the twinks, and will die almost instantly if he gets targeted. Given how different ESO's PvP can be from more "traditional" MMOs, being able to get some practice in before hitting max level would be a good thing.

bongtokin420insd16 · March 2019

lol you guys are poo-pooing a legit way to grind AP.

If you like twinking out characters and running low level BG's just to delete and repeat well then good for you. Not my taste, but when i am leveling an alt i run alot of BG's to get accustomed to my character and i rack AP that way too. I get owned alot but hey that is gonna happen after 50 too (especially if i haven't started learning the class pvp wise) considering there is not much difference other than maybe having gear. So learning how to counter that stuff early is beneficial IMO.

Should i not be allowed to tank a BG with a leveling alt in low MMR because my Main (non tank) is high MMR awesomeness? Its two different roles and the practice i get with low MMR helps me learn the playstyle.

On the other side of it, if i roll a new character that has the same class as my main am i not allowed to do a BG until 50 because i am going to rock at it? It is very common to have 2 same-classed toons for different activities after all.

Not griefing here and a bit all over the board i know just looking at other possible scenarios.

polgarah · March 2019

You people are amazing. (Ironic mode off).
I'm stunned with your line of argument: everyone who's playing with a werewolf in Bg's are the worst. Prior. xD

I did low level bg's yesterday with my new werewolf, maybe this is going to surprise you but...I need vigor, ap's and it's fun play bg's in order to level a char and you know what? I've done it with all my chars, not just with my werewolf, and I've tried to gear my chars in the best way possible while was leveling.. but, suddenly, because I've decided play with a werewolf, I'm a cheater or whatever you guys want to think.

You guys should get some fresh air xD

Aurielle · March 2019

polgarah wrote: »

You people are amazing. (Ironic mode off).
I'm stunned with your line of argument: everyone who's playing with a werewolf in Bg's are the worst. Prior. xD

I did low level bg's yesterday with my new werewolf, maybe this is going to surprise you but...I need vigor, ap's and it's fun play bg's in order to level a char and you know what? I've done it with all my chars, not just with my werewolf, and I've tried to gear my chars in the best way possible while was leveling.. but, suddenly, because I've decided play with a werewolf, I'm a cheater or whatever you guys want to think.

You guys should get some fresh air xD

There is a difference between cheesing and cheating.

Passerbye · March 2019

polgarah wrote: »

You people are amazing. (Ironic mode off).
. but, suddenly, because I've decided play with a werewolf, I'm a cheater or whatever you guys want to think.

You guys should get some fresh air xD

Not a cheater my friend, also you aren't the issue, the people who keep making werewolf alts with twinked out gear are.

Stomping feels good short term and there is no way of stopping various forms of it, take pet sorc for instance it is also way overperforming in pre 50s after it gets most of its skills, but unlike werewolf, it is limited by how many times you can actually dominate a BG due to needing somewhat of a higher level before getting there, instead of just needing someone to bite into you to get an unfair advantage( and I mean this only pre 50s since I truly think they get obliterated after 50s with fighter guild passives etc.)

Passerbye · March 2019

bongtokin420insd16 wrote: »

lol you guys are poo-pooing a legit way to grind AP.

Should i not be allowed to tank a BG with a leveling alt in low MMR because my Main (non tank) is high MMR awesomeness? Its two different roles and the practice i get with low MMR helps me learn the playstyle.

On the other side of it, if i roll a new character that has the same class as my main am i not allowed to do a BG until 50 because i am going to rock at it? It is very common to have 2 same-classed toons for different activities after all.

Not griefing here and a bit all over the board i know just looking at other possible scenarios.

They could simply implement an accountwide MMR for low level battlegrounds, this would mean that your 50 level awesome main wouldn't hamper your new pvp career on alts, but also seperate low level BG stompers because your alts will also lose bunch of games before you get your required skills etc, normalizing your mmr.

Undefwun · March 2019

polgarah wrote: »

You people are amazing. (Ironic mode off).
I'm stunned with your line of argument: everyone who's playing with a werewolf in Bg's are the worst. Prior. xD

I did low level bg's yesterday with my new werewolf, maybe this is going to surprise you but...I need vigor, ap's and it's fun play bg's in order to level a char and you know what? I've done it with all my chars, not just with my werewolf, and I've tried to gear my chars in the best way possible while was leveling.. but, suddenly, because I've decided play with a werewolf, I'm a cheater or whatever you guys want to think.

You guys should get some fresh air xD

lol... pick the guy playing broken build and defending it...

Solariken · March 2019

BGs are a savage and unholy realm, not fit for the faint of heart.

Thogard · March 2019

There are no werewolves in the high MMR BGs for the same reason there are no stamblades - it’s a single target dmg class.

It works well against unorganized opponents, but does poorly against organized opponents. High MMR BG solo queuers all know how to work well and play together... hence no WWs

I do think that WWs are particularly brutal in the lowbie BGs for two reasons:
1. Battle Scaling. WWs benefit from this more than anyone else, and they get all skills pretty quickly rather than having to hit 40something to unlock
2. Quality of teammates. In the lowbie BGs, your teammates will probably be pretty terrible if you solo queue.

SacredEarth · March 2019

Passerbye wrote: »

Accountwide MMR would solve a good portion of the issue, at least these people would be matched against similiar griefers or people who can actually counter them.

^^^ This!

I really want to get into BGs and sometimes when I am matched against players with similar skill (or even slightly better than me) I really enjoy them/ Lately I have been encountering too many WW builds and really good players that stomp me before I can do anything.
If a player is consistently getting 10-1 or 25-1 scores they should be skyrocketing up the ranks to be matched against other players of their skill. I keep going back in and trying to get better, but it is so frustrating with the current burst meta. I have sworn off BGs altogether recently as it just isn't worth the frustration.

jcm2606 · March 2019

SacredEarth wrote: »

Passerbye wrote: »

Accountwide MMR would solve a good portion of the issue, at least these people would be matched against similiar griefers or people who can actually counter them.

^^^ This!

I really want to get into BGs and sometimes when I am matched against players with similar skill (or even slightly better than me) I really enjoy them/ Lately I have been encountering too many WW builds and really good players that stomp me before I can do anything.
If a player is consistently getting 10-1 or 25-1 scores they should be skyrocketing up the ranks to be matched against other players of their skill. I keep going back in and trying to get better, but it is so frustrating with the current burst meta. I have sworn off BGs altogether recently as it just isn't worth the frustration.

And deal with the accompanying insanely long queue times (we're talking anywhere between 10 minutes and several hours) and constant matching against premades? No thanks.

I can guarantee that most good players who roll alts are doing it specifically to get away from the high MMR experience.

Qbiken · March 2019

Just get rid of the ridiculous battle-scaling for below 50 battlegrounds (and for PvP in general)

RedTalon · March 2019

I give out ww bites and vampire bites weekly on NA pc soi if you want a ww to stomp other people always a way to get it, my advice is loud up on crafted poisons to deal with wws, draining health, damaging stamina and throw in a weakness like reducing armor or whatever suits your build normally solves the ww problem, Alchjmey is one of the most useful ccrafting skills for none champ bgs, since there is no way for wws to counter the right poisons

Just my view on the matter

Moonsorrow · March 2019

Having 1 or even 2 ww on enemy team at low lvl bg is not so bad and easily manageable (for many). But.. and yes, there are those who do it.. the 4 ww teams or 3 x ww + healbot is seriously cheese at under 50 lvl bgs.

And i do not consider that many things as cheese, but yesterday at PC EU at under lvl 50 there were full teams of WW that had WW done also ready before fight so they all changed to WW form in the start at same time, with max amount of baby dire wolves.

What happened? All enemies just stayed at their bases when realised what kind of cheesewolf group they were against, saw most just leave, my team mate said they were just gonna AFK the fight and not go down farmed, people joined and saw the cheeswolves and left.

I kept going down there to fight them, atleast knowing it gonna end sooner and to get get some kills just to go into Sneak over a wolf corpse. One must go into Sneak in such battles.

And happened several times. Imagine the new players against those groups? Think they will stay in game? Hope they go try Cyrodiil atleast and it is not laggy enough for them to abandon that also and just leave game after such a bad pvp first experiences.

First time ever i actually thought that maybe at under lvl 50 pvp Ultimates should be disabled.

At regular bgs WW or any ultimate is not a problem, but under lvl 50 it is a big problem when some go full team cheesing it. I guess they do not realize that then even less people gonna queue so they can /sitchair hour between every fight and wonder where are all the people.

Canned_Apples · March 2019

I honestly stopped playing sub-50 BGs because I know how broken they are and it's not just because of the abundance of WWs. -Higher level players have access to more passives and abilities/morphs that put low levels/newbies at a great disadvantage. Although it's not exclusive to this game- It's common in every game that has massive x-y level gaps in pvp matches.

I do my daily then call it a day.

StormeReigns · March 2019

Remove Specific Battlegrounds from level 10-49 queue, make it available only at level 50 CP 0-160+
Granted, It wont take away premades with their Zoo/Packleader WW premades - but it'll stop them from Queue Spamming Deathmatch and get them their EXP they been avoiding, but it will remove their ghetto twink mentality.

While many of their arguments are that they are looking for "similar" and high skilled/Well geared twink groups in their matches, just suggest their own specific queue that allows them to not gather any EXP and AP, and let them fight each other as they so "intend."

They don't need AP, cause obviously they main gathered what their twink alt already needed, and though it isn't a fix; it is a start in the right direction to remove a large chunk of the grieving - and giving them what "they want" as well, other skilled groups to fight.

FYI, WoW did this as well, cause their twinks claimed they we're only in it for the fighting, looking for skilled players to battle. That they alone could keep up their own specific queue style with out bothering those leveling through BGs.
WoW Twink PvP queues sit around on average solo, 2hr and premade queues are at 3hr-5hr wait time.

Rikkadir · March 2019

Just completed my first Deathmatch Battleground today, to complete the 'For Glory' quest. Hadn't got a clue what I was doing, I'm a High Elf Sorcerer (CP615) wearing light armour. First time playing PvP, and died a lot. lol
Are you supposed to wear heavy armour for PvP?

ChunkyCat · March 2019

Rikkadir wrote: »

Are you supposed to wear heavy armour for PvP?

Only if you’re on my team.

wheem_ESO · March 2019

Rikkadir wrote: »

Just completed my first Deathmatch Battleground today, to complete the 'For Glory' quest. Hadn't got a clue what I was doing, I'm a High Elf Sorcerer (CP615) wearing light armour. First time playing PvP, and died a lot. lol
Are you supposed to wear heavy armour for PvP?

You'll want the Impenetrable trait on all your armor, and I think that 5 light, 2 heavy is generally the way to go for offensive Magicka builds right now. Other than that, make sure you have at least 10k total Stamina, and be ready to use Streak/Dodge Roll/etc...to get distance and/or line of sight as necessary.

If you don't want to run Lightning Form for the Major Resolve and Major Ward, you might want to look into the Mighty Chudan set. There are times that you're going to have to tank some damage if you want to be an effective team player and not just streak all over the map, and resists are really important.

Rikkadir · March 2019

wheem_ESO wrote: »

You'll want the Impenetrable trait on all your armor, and I think that 5 light, 2 heavy is generally the way to go for offensive Magicka builds right now. Other than that, make sure you have at least 10k total Stamina, and be ready to use Streak/Dodge Roll/etc...to get distance and/or line of sight as necessary.

If you don't want to run Lightning Form for the Major Resolve and Major Ward, you might want to look into the Mighty Chudan set. There are times that you're going to have to tank some damage if you want to be an effective team player and not just streak all over the map, and resists are really important.

Thanks for the info/advice, wheem_ESO.
Don't really do PvP, probably should have a dedicated toon.
But I did get some transmute crystals.

Iskiab · April 2019

Yea, pvp can be rough at low levels just because you don’t have access to counters. I started off dw and decided to change to 2 hander later on, resulting in me not getting forward momentum until I was almost 50. Then again the level scaling is crazy good, you’re almost overpowered at level 15 or so.

When I leveled alts in pvp I did crafted sets for level 15, 30, and 42 and used all training traits with infused chest, helmet and legs. I almost felt bad for new players though because pvp in general has a steep learning curve. I’d regularly go 20-2 or so in a BG.

I think there are usually enough players leveling alts to make it even. What I didn’t like was seeing lowby premades just for griefing new players.

Newer players have it rough. Even not knowing little things like you can buy level appropriate food and pots from the BG vendor make a big difference, I made sure to tell my teammates at the starting of every BG.