what are tanks supposed to be doing

Myrkgrav · March 2019

You forgot the most important part of being a tank, which is being a punching bag for the DDs who are apparently so good at tanking that they're queueing for DD instead and love telling you how to do your job, and GOD FORBID if you're not taunting every single add and trash mob. :')

Also I do not think as tank you are supposed to be rezzing unless the situation is dire, as you're supposed to be holding taunt and facing away. If you move to rezz you're just going to draw boss ontop of everyone else.

shack80 · March 2019

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

Another utility for a tank: location location location.
Both for tightly packing mobs (aka trash compactor) as keeping the boss on the ground aoe's that your allies set up, or taking them to AoE for some mechanic (like shock warden in Moon Hunter Keep, bring the enraged boss to the shock warden aoe or die).

If you want a fight that is a tank test, there are 3 I can think of from the top of my head:

Rizzuk and Avalanche on Frostvaul vet: Avalanche is brutal and must be taken 1 on 1 by the tank in a kind of ice arena, no one can eat such huge damage.

Hiath the Battlemaster on vDSA: this boss will spawn arena's other previous bosses and the tank must take them all away from the dps while they continue to beat on the boss.

Negatrix and Positrix fight on Halls of Fabrication: this requires 2 well coordinated tanks to spin around the bosses while creating a beam to short circuit dangerous adds, otherwise they deal too much damage and wipe the group.

There are certainly more tank intensive fights in the game, but these are IMO fights that are neither boring or easy for tanks.

For the groupdungeons the best test for the tank are: (these are without the healer or support)
And this is how I feel about them. I really cant find any other older DLC dungeon to be hard except the HM on BRF.

Frostvault (boss with lasers is a nice challenge for all and the last boss can do some damage) challenge level 3/5
Hiath vDSA challenge level 3/5
Fanglair and scalercaller HM challenge level 3½/5
Bloodroot hardmode (boss and the copies hit like a truck and quite often when three of them) challenge level 4½/5
Moonhunter keep and moonhunter HM (those ads hit hard and leave nasty dot) challenge level 5/5 (for me the HM is the biggest challenge without the healer and support) It can be done easily if rest of the group ocordinated but if 1 or 2 doing 1st time it can be a pain.

For the trials I would say:

vSanctum and Sanctum HM challenge level 3/5
Helra Hardmode challenge level 3/5

These I havent tanked myself but would assume that they are pretty hard.
vMol challenge level 4/5
vHoF challenge level 4/5
Asylym Hardmode challenge level 4/5 without HM challenge level 2/5 (done it)
Cloudrest challenge level 5/5 and HM 6/5. I really dont know, but been there as DPS and as we are progressing +1 it has been a challenge but we've been able todo it couple of times. Nice stress test for tanks and healers.

shack80 · March 2019

Myrkgrav wrote: »

Also I do not think as tank you are supposed to be rezzing unless the situation is dire, as you're supposed to be holding taunt and facing away. If you move to rezz you're just going to draw boss ontop of everyone else.

Agreed but also very situational. Popping up magma shell gives you enough time to res, but should be used only if must.
On the DLC dungeons there are some occasions that its quite hard for the tank to res, but on the older ones its pretty easy so let your dd's do the work while you res as on those dungeons theres basically nothing that kills you.

Flameheart · March 2019

shack80 wrote: »

Honestly would it not be quite boring if when taunted the bosses only hit the tank. That would basically be the same than you hitting the dummy. There's no point in that so it is good they have mechanics that every role need to be aware of.

This.

...and therefore ESO bosses have so called "scripted" special attacks. They happen besides the normal taunt and aggro system and are based on time or boss health or else and often aiming for a random target or even the whole group. Some can be ignored when the boss is positioned correctly or healed through, some are deadly onehit attacks and can better be anticipated and then migated by DDs or healer by a block or a dodge roll if the boss is positioned correctly, because you can watch the special attack's animation better (for example, the boss turns around to a player).

Those attacks are the salt in the soup of ESO's combat system. They make hardmodes hard and some strange looking guy to an actual boss.

Besides that, if you think you don't have much to do as a tank when played correctly you are wrong. Besides taunting and keeping aggro for non scripted boss attacks and mob positioning, your task is to support your group with ressources, healing (if possible), buffs and debuffs as warhorn for example, while managing your own ressources as a tank (the later one you might find quite challenging here and there, especially when your DDs aren't the best and fights last long). Who ever finds that easy, never tanked trials or harder veteran 4-man-content.

RebornV3x · March 2019

Not dying

lolli42 · March 2019

I want to mention what i noticed lately
Ppl are like: tanks have to run in first so they get the agro

So im like running ahead into the next train like "helloo im the taannkk hit me fiirsstt"

And the enemies are like "nooo *** you,
we gonna chase your group that is still in the other roooooom" and just run through me xD

idk · March 2019

Turelus wrote: »

lolli42 wrote: »

I know all this
Its just as u said
Almost any boss got those engages
And weak DDs just get 1 hitted
Thats well...yea vet mod should deserve its name
Still i feel fooled, when im the only one, who doesnt get the heavy attacks xD

Most DD are expected to have somewhere between 16-18k health, most common these days is 17k with 1k bonus from Ebon Armour.

DD are also expected to move/dodge/block/shield incoming attacks, if they're dying it's probably due to not understanding mechanics or lack of attention to what's happening.

As said previously, this isn't a tank and spank MMO. Every player in the group needs to be aware and move at times not just stack and do rotations, at least not in later content (some earlier stuff this is possible).
This is so the gameplay remains engaging, as tank as spank becomes dull and the normal solution to it is "threat levels" for DD characters who are too efficient.

Pretty much this. Not only is there AoE damage that goes out that the DD and healer must contend with, but there are fights with single target damage that will go to random people and they have to actively avoid or mitigate that damage. The tank has no control over this damage that targets random people.

This is not like older games where DDs do not have to move unless they are standing in read and rely solely on the healer to keep you alive. What Turelus said about everyone has a great deal of responsibility for their own survival. If someone in a raiding guild dies often the first person they look at is that player who dies a lot. Of course they try to help them improve on their survival but if they die often it is usually something they can actively improve on.

shack80 · March 2019

lolli42 wrote: »

I want to mention what i noticed lately
Ppl are like: tanks have to run in first so they get the agro

So im like running ahead into the next train like "helloo im the taannkk hit me fiirsstt"

And the enemies are like "nooo *** you,
we gonna chase your group that is still in the other roooooom" and just run through me xD

Thats how it goes. You just need to taunt the ads that can oneshot dds, the rest you can worry later. If team is dedicated they will lead rest of the ads to tank, but usually ppl just start running around like headless chicken and it makes tanks job harder to chain the ads when they are on the other side of the map with the one dd that is afraid like hell...

BejaProphet · March 2019

lolli42 wrote: »

I want to mention what i noticed lately
Ppl are like: tanks have to run in first so they get the agro

So im like running ahead into the next train like "helloo im the taannkk hit me fiirsstt"

And the enemies are like "nooo *** you,
we gonna chase your group that is still in the other roooooom" and just run through me xD

That’s why you open with a massive aoe dot like caltrops to begin your aggro pile, then you begin chaining/leashing extras onto the pile.

Silver_Strider · March 2019

BejaProphet wrote: »

lolli42 wrote: »

I want to mention what i noticed lately
Ppl are like: tanks have to run in first so they get the agro

So im like running ahead into the next train like "helloo im the taannkk hit me fiirsstt"

And the enemies are like "nooo *** you,
we gonna chase your group that is still in the other roooooom" and just run through me xD

That’s why you open with a massive aoe dot like caltrops to begin your aggro pile, then you begin chaining/leashing extras onto the pile.

See, I do this and adds still run right past me. I have better luck just Light Attacking them then I do dropping Caltrops, Volley or WoE.

BejaProphet · March 2019

The adds hit by the aoe run past you or others outside the aoe?

The way initial aggro works in this game is that the first person to hit gets seven seconds of the creatures attention, assuming no taunt steals it.

However, the catch is it doesn’t work 100% of the time. I have no idea why. It especially seems dodgy on the more powerful trash that can one shot. But if you open with an aoe (before your team mates!) then you are going to have the attention of most of what you hit. I find best practice is the opening aoe plus inner fire on the primary threat as you rush in.

There is a lot of finesse beyond that but that is the center piece of initial aggro grab. After that you are primarily chaining others onto the pile and using you preferred method of holding them there, talons for me. Occasionally refreshing taunt on primary threat.

VaranisArano · March 2019

lolli42 wrote: »

I want to mention what i noticed lately
Ppl are like: tanks have to run in first so they get the agro

So im like running ahead into the next train like "helloo im the taannkk hit me fiirsstt"

And the enemies are like "nooo *** you,
we gonna chase your group that is still in the other roooooom" and just run through me xD

That's because "tanks go first" actually means "Tanks hit everything first with an AOE attack to grab the initial aggro until they can taunt priority adds" because mobs have a really short attention span.

How aggro works: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/391895/a-guide-to-aggro/

Flameheart · March 2019

Silver_Strider wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

lolli42 wrote: »

I want to mention what i noticed lately
Ppl are like: tanks have to run in first so they get the agro

So im like running ahead into the next train like "helloo im the taannkk hit me fiirsstt"

And the enemies are like "nooo *** you,
we gonna chase your group that is still in the other roooooom" and just run through me xD

That’s why you open with a massive aoe dot like caltrops to begin your aggro pile, then you begin chaining/leashing extras onto the pile.

See, I do this and adds still run right past me. I have better luck just Light Attacking them then I do dropping Caltrops, Volley or WoE.

As a tank my task is to grab initial aggro by some AoE damage abilities (every class has that and can do that when tanking). Usually I even do some single target taunts especially for larger adds (those with a twohanded weapon are often the dangerous ones). In addition I use chains as a DK or Swarm Mother to pile them up, aka pulling ranged adds. In addition there are abilities to slow or immobilize a whole bunch of mobs.

Usually melees and even the healer won't stand that far away from the tank concerning trash mobs so that the mobs won't spread out too far and if your DDs are good (which means up to 100k and more AoE dps which depends on the size of the group of trash mobs of course), the life span of trash mob groups is usually measured in seconds.

In addition, if a DD likes to pull / do damage before the tank or to stand on max range and pulling mobs out of the pile, he is responsible for killing them. No taunt for you my boy.

Savos_Saren · March 2019

dazee wrote: »

Tanking in FFXIV: Oh hey cool I'm doing almost as much damage as that dps over there WHILE holding aggro and mitigating damage and positioning the boss correctly!

Tanking in ESO: Oh hey cool I can hold block and never be able to kill anything on my own!

As long as you're not competitively running vet trials for high scores- you can wear sets that provide damage and self-heals in order to make tanking more enjoyable (and will help you in overland content).

My Argonian DK tank wears: Leeching Plate, Bahraha's Curse, and Malubeth (I swap it for Valkyn Skoria when I want to do more damage). All three of these sets provide damage, self-heals, and make you more survivable as a tank. I've run VDSA many times with these sets- and it allows my group to do the "fast burn" while I maintain aggro of four sub-bosses.

As long as you can hold aggro, crowd control, and provide group buffs (or add enemy debuffs)- you're doing your job as a tank. You don't have to wear Ebon to buff a random PUG that is light attacking their way to victory while they wear heavy armor on a bow/bow build.

You can also toss in some secondary sets that will add interesting debuffs (ie: Roar of Alkosh) while doing damage. But make sure you're focused on your survival and maintaining aggro first and foremost.

Tanking doesn't have to be boring!

Ysbriel · March 2019

lolli42 wrote: »

i mean, i know but rlly^^
the thing i can do as a tank, is holding the boss at a spot for the ground attacks, and ccing some adds
but rlly almost every boss doesnt care at all and just rages out with his special attacks at random group members, 1 hitting them with jumps, magic attacks, etc.
just to return to me and hit me with useless basic attacks
whats the point of this?'
i am supposed to eat the damage, not the DDs xD
the most important part of being a tank, i feel, is ressing teammembers^^

If content ware all like that where there is no sudden chaos, there would't be any fun at all, even now with the new dlc dungeons you cant just simply sit there and hold block unless you want to be sliced by lasers.