Abnur Tharn and the character dont know each other at all?

Aertew · March 2019

So Im going the prologue for the Elswheyr expansion, and I didnt know it came out today, so i got talk to Abnur Tharn and there isn't any Reunion or anything like we had with Darius in Summerset, there is even a option to ask who he is. I don't understand. Why did Abnur Tharn and the character completely miss the entire Fight against molag bal and going into cold harbor?

dazee · March 2019

If you've completed the main storyline on that character he addresses you as "Vestige" and knows you. the option to ask who he is is still there but you're probably just trying to *** him off by asking since he's so self absorbed "what he/she doesnt know who I am?"

VaranisArano · March 2019

He vaguely acknowledged me as the Vestige, and then was like "You should escape notice, given your relative unimportance" or something like that...even to my Hero of the Daggerfall Covenant, who is standing in Daggerfall Castle and who promptly was saluted by a guard for saving King Casimir...

I was extremely disappointed that we didn't even get the chance to ask "Why should I work with you, given that the last time we saw each other, you

stole the Amulet of Kings?"

ArchMikem · March 2019

When compared to how Tharn sees himself, of course he considers you as unimportant.

VaranisArano · March 2019

ArchMikem wrote: »

When compared to how Tharn sees himself, of course he considers you as unimportant.

Yeah, I get that he's arrogant and full of his own magnificence. I generally find that amusing about Tharn.

I am, however, rather annoyed that ZOS brought back this iconic character and then chose not to acknowledge our previous interactions, and especially if we'd finished the Main Quest. After Darien where they did a good job, this was really disappointing.

Hippie4927 · March 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

When compared to how Tharn sees himself, of course he considers you as unimportant.

Yeah, I get that he's arrogant and full of his own magnificence. I generally find that amusing about Tharn.

I am, however, rather annoyed that ZOS brought back this iconic character and then chose not to acknowledge our previous interactions, and especially if we'd finished the Main Quest. After Darien where they did a good job, this was really disappointing.

I see it as.....Tharn knows you are not unimportant. That's why he asked for your help. It's just that his ego won't allow him to verbalize your importance. He can only verbalize his own.

RebornV3x · March 2019

There should have been a "Why should i help you after you...." option Tharn is a total POS and at the very least has some things to answer for if you beat the main quest but the Vestige and Tharn act like two best friends that haven't met in a decade. there should be some animosity between the two but eh whaterver.

Aertew · March 2019

dazee wrote: »

If you've completed the main storyline on that character he addresses you as "Vestige" and knows you. the option to ask who he is is still there but you're probably just trying to *** him off by asking since he's so self absorbed "what he/she doesnt know who I am?"

Completed the main storyline and I'm pretty sure he didnt call me the vestige, even then. The character and Abnur dont even interact alot. Abnur Tharn could be a at least started out with a reference to the previous adventure. Anyway my main point is his character feels empty, like they just dumped out everything we did, including sacrificing one of our companians, he just seems to forget.

RaddlemanNumber7 · March 2019

I'm not sure what transgressions people think Abnur Tharn committed during the Main Quest. I don't remember any. He was pragmatic while always remaining true to the noble cause to which he has dedicated his life. He was never deceitful or treacherous.

At the end of the quest Tharn took responsibility for the Amulet of Kings and carried it away to a place of safety. The Amulet is of central importance in re-establishing the Empire, and he was the one holding it when it was last used. So why would he give it to one of those two remaining dim wits to look after? Or maybe just leave it lying around in Cold Harbour?

It was Meridia alone who suggested that Tharn had maliciously absconded with the Amulet - since when has any Daedric Prince ever been a disinterested witness? Seems more likely that Meridia would still be hostile to the Empire of Men, and be spreading lies about Tharn to tarnish his reputation.

I did the Elsweyr prologue with a character that had completed the Main Quest. That was acknowledged by Tharn, as was his estimation of our continuing usefulness. That is all I was expecting from him. After that, it was straight down to business, as I was expecting. That's the kind of man he is.

You think The Tharn should treat us like an old friend? He doesn't have any friends. You think he should invite us to go to the nearest inn, so that we can swing the lantern and reminisce about old times? Risible.

If you don't like that, too bad. All dialogues have a "Goodbye" option.

luizhd · March 2019

Wait the dude In the trailer is Tharn? I didn't recognize him at all haha. He looks so strong and big in the cgi. I remember him being the same height as my wood elf who is already in the short side of the slider.

VaranisArano · March 2019

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I'm not sure what transgressions people think Abnur Tharn committed during the Main Quest. I don't remember any. He was pragmatic while always remaining true to the noble cause to which he has dedicated his life. He was never deceitful or treacherous.
At the end of the quest Tharn took responsibility for the Amulet of Kings and carried it away to a place of safety. The Amulet is of central importance in re-establishing the Empire, and he was the one holding it when it was last used. So why would he give it to one of those two remaining dim wits to look after? Or maybe just leave it lying around in Cold Harbour?

It was Meridia alone who suggested that Tharn had maliciously absconded with the Amulet - since when has any Daedric Prince ever been a disinterested witness? Seems more likely that Meridia would still be hostile to the Empire of Men, and be spreading lies about Tharn to tarnish his reputation.

I did the Elsweyr prologue with a character that had completed the Main Quest. That was acknowledged by Tharn, as was his estimation of our continuing usefulness. That is all I was expecting from him. After that, it was straight down to business, as I was expecting. That's the kind of man he is.

You think The Tharn should treat us like an old friend? He doesn't have any friends. You think he should invite us to go to the nearest inn, so that we can swing the lantern and reminisce about old times? Risible.

If you don't like that, too bad. All dialogues have a "Goodbye" option.

Well, my Vestige has a much less kind view of anImperial Chancellor who obviously enjoys being the power behind the throne, and who swapped sides to work with Mannimarco after the Planemeld up until he realized he couldn't possibly get the upper hand, and then swapped sides again to work with us, and capped it all off by running off with the Amulet of Kings.

He's very much an "the enemy of my enemy is not my friend" type of character to my Vestige. Varanis Arano might laugh at his quips but she doesn't trust him as far as she can throw him. She's never been given any reason to actually trust him, other than that his own ambition temporarily aligns with her own goals.

Which is why I did the Prologue on a different character than my Vestige.

Because Varanis would have asked "Why should I trust you at all after you ran off with the Amulet of Kings without so much as by-your-leave?" And since the Devs didn't give him an answer, she has no reason to trust him, every reason to assume that his idea is stupid and would never work in the first place, and choose that [Goodbye] option.

And a few weeks later when she hears about dragons rampaging in Elsweyr...

*facepalm* "THARN!!!!"

WhiteCoatSyndrome · March 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

Well, my Vestige has a much less kind view of anImperial Chancellor who obviously enjoys being the power behind the throne, and who swapped sides to work with Mannimarco after the Planemeld up until he realized he couldn't possibly get the upper hand, and then swapped sides again to work with us, and capped it all off by running off with the Amulet of Kings.

He's very much an "the enemy of my enemy is not my friend" type of character to my Vestige. Varanis Arano might laugh at his quips but she doesn't trust him as far as she can throw him. She's never been given any reason to actually trust him, other than that his own ambition temporarily aligns with her own goals.

Which is why I did the Prologue on a different character than my Vestige.

Because Varanis would have asked "Why should I trust you at all after you ran off with the Amulet of Kings without so much as by-your-leave?" And since the Devs didn't give him an answer, she has no reason to trust him, every reason to assume that his idea is stupid and would never work in the first place, and choose that [Goodbye] option.

And a few weeks later when she hears about dragons rampaging in Elsweyr...

*facepalm* "THARN!!!!"

I regret that I can only give you an Agree or an Awesome but not both.

My Vestige is a loyal subject of Queen Ayrenn and will be scratching her head over Tharn picking her over...basically anyone who actually wants the Empire to win. She has no reason to help Tharn get a weapon he can threaten the Dominion with, regardless of the Amulet, but she might go along with it so she can steal it at the last minute...maybe, I'm kind of tired of being the one to sign Nirn up for more trouble later down the line. -_-

Ysbriel · March 2019

When has the Tharn lineage been related to anything good anyways?

Derbforgaill · March 2019

That is very disappointing indeed. I wish ZOS paid more mind to character progression & "backstory" in quest NPC dialogues...

VaranisArano wrote: »

He vaguely acknowledged me as the Vestige, and then was like "You should escape notice, given your relative unimportance" or something like that...even to my Hero of the Daggerfall Covenant, who is standing in Daggerfall Castle and who promptly was saluted by a guard for saving King Casimir...

I was extremely disappointed that we didn't even get the chance to ask "Why should I work with you, given that the last time we saw each other, you
stole the Amulet of Kings?"

karthrag_inak · March 2019

You know how many vestiges he's worked with? I would be surprised if he remembered anyone - seems like it'd be a big blur by now.

Korah_Eaglecry · March 2019

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I'm not sure what transgressions people think Abnur Tharn committed during the Main Quest. I don't remember any. He was pragmatic while always remaining true to the noble cause to which he has dedicated his life. He was never deceitful or treacherous.
At the end of the quest Tharn took responsibility for the Amulet of Kings and carried it away to a place of safety. The Amulet is of central importance in re-establishing the Empire, and he was the one holding it when it was last used. So why would he give it to one of those two remaining dim wits to look after? Or maybe just leave it lying around in Cold Harbour?

It was Meridia alone who suggested that Tharn had maliciously absconded with the Amulet - since when has any Daedric Prince ever been a disinterested witness? Seems more likely that Meridia would still be hostile to the Empire of Men, and be spreading lies about Tharn to tarnish his reputation.

I did the Elsweyr prologue with a character that had completed the Main Quest. That was acknowledged by Tharn, as was his estimation of our continuing usefulness. That is all I was expecting from him. After that, it was straight down to business, as I was expecting. That's the kind of man he is.

You think The Tharn should treat us like an old friend? He doesn't have any friends. You think he should invite us to go to the nearest inn, so that we can swing the lantern and reminisce about old times? Risible.

If you don't like that, too bad. All dialogues have a "Goodbye" option.

Tharn openly admits hes a Necromancer and worked with Mannimarco, and was only interested in reaching out to the Vestige once he was no longer useful to the King of Worms. Its been spun since then that Tharn was a good guy that was forced to work with Mannimarco and he was just waiting for the right moment to do... something. Run, like he did in the MQ I guess.

Its really not hard to understand why Lyris and Sai dont like the guy. They treat him as hostile from the start and assume hes up to something through out the MQ. Sure a bit of that can be choked up to his attitude towards others, but his arrogance wouldnt be the reason they think hes not trustworthy. His service to the Order of the Black Worm would. And being that the Tharn Family in general seems to be filled with some really shady and morally bankrupt characters. Its not hard to imagine that Abnur, while now on a path to fix things, is just as morally bankrupt as his kin.

JD2013 · March 2019

Oh he knows us. He even knows how powerful we are and also likely knows that we have saved half of Tamriel before now. He also acknowledges (briefly, if you have done the Wrathstone dungeons) that we helped get the tablets.

But he is such a narcissistic, ego wrapped idiot that he would never, ever acknowledge our importance, or the fact that he actually needs us and will continue to do so to clear up the spectacular mess that we helped him make.

I was however disappointed that there was no opportunity to *ahem* have "words" with him about running off with the Amulet of Kings like a big coward.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · March 2019

JD2013 wrote: »

But he is such a narcissistic, ego wrapped idiot that he would never, ever acknowledge our importance, or the fact that he actually needs us and will continue to do so to clear up the spectacular mess that we helped him make.

I was however disappointed that there was no opportunity to *ahem* have "words" with him about running off with the Amulet of Kings like a big coward.

I think this here is the core of the problem. Tharn not acknowledging our past deeds can be hand-waved, but us not being able to acknowledge his past deeds, not so much.

JD2013 · March 2019

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

But he is such a narcissistic, ego wrapped idiot that he would never, ever acknowledge our importance, or the fact that he actually needs us and will continue to do so to clear up the spectacular mess that we helped him make.

I was however disappointed that there was no opportunity to *ahem* have "words" with him about running off with the Amulet of Kings like a big coward.

I think this here is the core of the problem. Tharn not acknowledging our past deeds can be hand-waved, but us not being able to acknowledge his past deeds, not so much.

Oh I absolutely agree with that. Tharn really deserves slapping around a bit for what he did. That did disappoint me that we could not even acknowledge his transgressions.

RaddlemanNumber7 · March 2019

I shake my head. So many players on this thread have misread Tharn. These players have mistakenly assumed that Tharn is a transgressor, or a necromancer, or even an antagonist. But a new part of the game has appeared which treats Tharn as if he is none of those things. Now these players are saying that the Devs have made a mistake, that the game's writers have written the dialogue of the Elsweyr Prologue wrong. And these players fault Tharn for his arrogance. I shake my head.

VaranisArano · March 2019

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I shake my head. So many players on this thread have misread Tharn. These players have mistakenly assumed that Tharn is a transgressor, or a necromancer, or even an antagonist. But a new part of the game has appeared which treats Tharn as if he is none of those things. Now these players are saying that the Devs have made a mistake, that the game's writers have written the dialogue of the Elsweyr Prologue wrong. And these players fault Tharn for his arrogance. I shake my head.

So very tempted to shake my head back at you.

But you know what?

Its a roleplaying game. We can all have different interpretations, and the Devs don't get to mandate whether our characters liked Tharn or not. I have a character who I role play as a former Imperial legionnaire who now works for Tharn and she absolutely agrees with you that Tharn is the best person to hold onto the Amulet. My Vestige thinks it ought to go to the Drake of Blades, who's done far more to safeguard the return of a Dragonborn Emperor than Tharn.

It's a roleplaying game. Neither of us get to mandate an interpretation of Tharn and call each other "wrong", even as we obviously have alternate interpretations of him.

I would have been happy with Tharn having a simple answer to the relatively neutral "Why should I trust you? Meridia told me you ran off with the Amulet of Kings."

Because that happened. And the devs dropped it like a hot potato, leaving that question unanswered, and I'm disappointed by their decision.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · March 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

I would have been happy with Tharn having a simple answer to the relatively neutral "Why should I trust you? Meridia told me you ran off with the Amulet of Kings."

Because that happened. And the devs dropped it like a hot potato, leaving that question unanswered, and I'm disappointed by their decision.

I'm going to chime in and add that there isn't much point in having recurring characters if they're not going to acknowledge the previous occurrences.

They might as well just make up new characters.

RaddlemanNumber7 · March 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I shake my head. So many players on this thread have misread Tharn. These players have mistakenly assumed that Tharn is a transgressor, or a necromancer, or even an antagonist. But a new part of the game has appeared which treats Tharn as if he is none of those things. Now these players are saying that the Devs have made a mistake, that the game's writers have written the dialogue of the Elsweyr Prologue wrong. And these players fault Tharn for his arrogance. I shake my head.

So very tempted to shake my head back at you.

But you know what?

Its a roleplaying game. We can all have different interpretations, and the Devs don't get to mandate whether our characters liked Tharn or not. I have a character who I role play as a former Imperial legionnaire who now works for Tharn and she absolutely agrees with you that Tharn is the best person to hold onto the Amulet. My Vestige thinks it ought to go to the Drake of Blades, who's done far more to safeguard the return of a Dragonborn Emperor than Tharn.

It's a roleplaying game. Neither of us get to mandate an interpretation of Tharn and call each other "wrong", even as we obviously have alternate interpretations of him.

I would have been happy with Tharn having a simple answer to the relatively neutral "Why should I trust you? Meridia told me you ran off with the Amulet of Kings."

Because that happened. And the devs dropped it like a hot potato, leaving that question unanswered, and I'm disappointed by their decision.

I do not disagree with anything you are saying about roleplay. I would not attempt to correct another player's roleplay or headcanon. But this is a "Lore" thread, not a "Fiction and Roleplaying" thread. Comments made about Lore can be wrong.

Posters are coming on this Lore thread and saying that Tharn has transgressed, that Tharn is a necromancer, that Tharn nefariously absconded with the Amulet of Kings (as if it is somehow the property of Vestige). That the game's writers have made a mistake in ignoring these things.

I have seen no evidence of any of these supposed wrongdoings by Tharn. Where in Lore or in game dialogue does it say any of this about Tharn? Where are the citations and screen shots to back up these claims about Tharn? I see none. It is my opinion that these claims about Tharn are wrong in this thread because they are against Lore.

ruff · March 2019

There just must be an option to ask/confront him about his past wrongdoings, and his reply to shove it off, and your option - to either abandon the quest or bend to his will and continue the quest with him. That way you kind of willingly accept him as he is, or keep your line and just don't do the ass's quest.

VaranisArano · March 2019

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I shake my head. So many players on this thread have misread Tharn. These players have mistakenly assumed that Tharn is a transgressor, or a necromancer, or even an antagonist. But a new part of the game has appeared which treats Tharn as if he is none of those things. Now these players are saying that the Devs have made a mistake, that the game's writers have written the dialogue of the Elsweyr Prologue wrong. And these players fault Tharn for his arrogance. I shake my head.

So very tempted to shake my head back at you.

But you know what?

Its a roleplaying game. We can all have different interpretations, and the Devs don't get to mandate whether our characters liked Tharn or not. I have a character who I role play as a former Imperial legionnaire who now works for Tharn and she absolutely agrees with you that Tharn is the best person to hold onto the Amulet. My Vestige thinks it ought to go to the Drake of Blades, who's done far more to safeguard the return of a Dragonborn Emperor than Tharn.

It's a roleplaying game. Neither of us get to mandate an interpretation of Tharn and call each other "wrong", even as we obviously have alternate interpretations of him.

I would have been happy with Tharn having a simple answer to the relatively neutral "Why should I trust you? Meridia told me you ran off with the Amulet of Kings."

Because that happened. And the devs dropped it like a hot potato, leaving that question unanswered, and I'm disappointed by their decision.

I do not disagree with anything you are saying about roleplay. I would not attempt to correct another player's roleplay or headcanon. But this is a "Lore" thread, not a "Fiction and Roleplaying" thread. Comments made about Lore can be wrong.

Posters are coming on this Lore thread and saying that Tharn has transgressed, that Tharn is a necromancer, that Tharn nefariously absconded with the Amulet of Kings (as if it is somehow the property of Vestige). That the game's writers have made a mistake in ignoring these things.

I have seen no evidence of any of these supposed wrongdoings by Tharn. Where in Lore or in game dialogue does it say any of this about Tharn? Where are the citations and screen shots to back up these claims about Tharn? I see none. It is my opinion that these claims about Tharn are wrong in this thread because they are against Lore.

Tharn is a necromancer. In the Main Quest, he tells you how to make a flesh atronach and comments "We'll make a necromancer of you yet." Yes, the Devs are aware of this.

https://twitter.com/TESOnline/status/1110206214858784768

In his own words, he gave an oath of loyalty to Mannimarco so he wouldn't be killed. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chronicles_of_the_Five_Companions_4

At the end of the Main Quest, Meridia tells the Vestige (I'm quoting from the screenshots I have saved, you can go look up a youtube video yourself if you actually want evidence)
Vestige: Where is the Amulet of Kings?
Meridia: As your enemy fell, the one you call Abnur Tharn took Chim-el Adabal and fled. He returns to the land from whence he came, the place you call Cyrodiil.
Vestige: He took the Amulet with him?
Meridia: The Amulet's power has been expended for a generation or more. The Imperial will not be able to use it, nor will he profit from it, though he will spend many frustrated years in the attempt.

Later, in the Harborage (possibly subject to change depending on who you sacrifice:
Sai Sahan: Wait, where is Tharn? Did he survive?
Cadwell: He vanished. Ran off, I think. And he took the amulet you chaps found, with him.
Then, in conversation with Sai Sahan:
Vestige: Aren't you going to chase after Tharn?
Sai Sahan: To what end? No, let him return to his Imperial City. He played his role and that is enough. Grudges are like poison to the spirit.

So whether or not you think its nefarious that Tharn ran off with it (that being up to player interpretation), it is true that we've been told that he took it, which makes it a logical point of conversation for the next time he shows up out of the blue wanting our help.

I think the Devs missed an excellent chance to ask the eternal question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2Dre-ZaEaQ

Korah_Eaglecry · March 2019

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I shake my head. So many players on this thread have misread Tharn. These players have mistakenly assumed that Tharn is a transgressor, or a necromancer, or even an antagonist. But a new part of the game has appeared which treats Tharn as if he is none of those things. Now these players are saying that the Devs have made a mistake, that the game's writers have written the dialogue of the Elsweyr Prologue wrong. And these players fault Tharn for his arrogance. I shake my head.

So very tempted to shake my head back at you.

But you know what?

Its a roleplaying game. We can all have different interpretations, and the Devs don't get to mandate whether our characters liked Tharn or not. I have a character who I role play as a former Imperial legionnaire who now works for Tharn and she absolutely agrees with you that Tharn is the best person to hold onto the Amulet. My Vestige thinks it ought to go to the Drake of Blades, who's done far more to safeguard the return of a Dragonborn Emperor than Tharn.

It's a roleplaying game. Neither of us get to mandate an interpretation of Tharn and call each other "wrong", even as we obviously have alternate interpretations of him.

I would have been happy with Tharn having a simple answer to the relatively neutral "Why should I trust you? Meridia told me you ran off with the Amulet of Kings."

Because that happened. And the devs dropped it like a hot potato, leaving that question unanswered, and I'm disappointed by their decision.

I do not disagree with anything you are saying about roleplay. I would not attempt to correct another player's roleplay or headcanon. But this is a "Lore" thread, not a "Fiction and Roleplaying" thread. Comments made about Lore can be wrong.

Posters are coming on this Lore thread and saying that Tharn has transgressed, that Tharn is a necromancer, that Tharn nefariously absconded with the Amulet of Kings (as if it is somehow the property of Vestige). That the game's writers have made a mistake in ignoring these things.

I have seen no evidence of any of these supposed wrongdoings by Tharn. Where in Lore or in game dialogue does it say any of this about Tharn? Where are the citations and screen shots to back up these claims about Tharn? I see none. It is my opinion that these claims about Tharn are wrong in this thread because they are against Lore.

My opinion is most definitely backed up by the lore. Its my opinion that Tharn is not a good guy or someone to trust. Ive played the MQ numerous times over many characters. Tharn most definitely went to work for Mannimarco, claiming he would have been killed if he didnt. But this is coming from Tharn once Mannimarco has locked him up in Coldharbor and no longer has a use for him. Tharn has every reason in Mundus to lie about his relationship with the King of Worms because of his circumstances. The Vestige and Prophet are his only hope of staying alive at that point and coloring his time in the Order as being under duress makes him more sympathetic to the people rescuing him. Not only does Tharn proclaim that he will "make a Necromancer of you yet" but prior to the games launch Tharn and his family was called secret necromancers in material ZOS dropped leading up to the release of the game. Tharn was always supposed to be a sleazy character that the Vestige and the Companions had no choice in saving and working with. Now you can disagree with me about whether he was lying or not about his time in the Order. But there is no way you can claim the lore backs up your opinion about Tharn not being a Necromancer, working for the Order or that he didnt do terrible things while in the Order.

And while there is no insight into why he took the Amulet and it is Meridia that offers up the idea that he might use it for his own interests (are we really questioning this considering the type of person Tharn is?). Tharn took it and left without so much as a goodbye. We're left with no real answer as to why he thought he should have it in his possession. And so far I havent seen anyone claim the Amulet should be the Vestiges. But they are free to voice their opinion on what should have happened to it once it was used to stop Molag Bal.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

He vaguely acknowledged me as the Vestige, and then was like "You should escape notice, given your relative unimportance" or something like that...even to my Hero of the Daggerfall Covenant, who is standing in Daggerfall Castle and who promptly was saluted by a guard for saving King Casimir...

I was extremely disappointed that we didn't even get the chance to ask "Why should I work with you, given that the last time we saw each other, you
stole the Amulet of Kings?"

I found the meeting with Abnur Tharn extremely disappointing. I like the fact that we can access prologues in a more intelligent way than previous updates to the game but the writers (or their managers) really should have done something better here. As I approach Abnur Tharn, a member of the Elder Council, he should recognize a few things. The most important is that as the Vestige I've regained my soul yet retain the power to hop through planes and wield some aedric/daedric powers. I have the power to handle the chim el adabal. I have been Emperor. I have conquered Molag Bal. We went through adventures together as the five companions. I'm a hero of Tamriel…. and many more things. Abnur acknowledges none of this. The thing that makes this approach so disgusting is that he took off with one of the most powerful artifacts in Tamriel when last we met. He doesn't strike me as a trustworthy individual. The approach the writers took makes me feel like my character is a complete moron with words crammed into his mouth. They could have done better. I will probably enjoy Elsweyr but I did not enjoy this introduction.

Ogou · April 2019

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

He vaguely acknowledged me as the Vestige, and then was like "You should escape notice, given your relative unimportance" or something like that...even to my Hero of the Daggerfall Covenant, who is standing in Daggerfall Castle and who promptly was saluted by a guard for saving King Casimir...

I was extremely disappointed that we didn't even get the chance to ask "Why should I work with you, given that the last time we saw each other, you
stole the Amulet of Kings?"

I found the meeting with Abnur Tharn extremely disappointing. I like the fact that we can access prologues in a more intelligent way than previous updates to the game but the writers (or their managers) really should have done something better here. As I approach Abnur Tharn, a member of the Elder Council, he should recognize a few things. The most important is that as the Vestige I've regained my soul yet retain the power to hop through planes and wield some aedric/daedric powers. I have the power to handle the chim el adabal. I have been Emperor. I have conquered Molag Bal. We went through adventures together as the five companions. I'm a hero of Tamriel…. and many more things. Abnur acknowledges none of this. The thing that makes this approach so disgusting is that he took off with one of the most powerful artifacts in Tamriel when last we met. He doesn't strike me as a trustworthy individual. The approach the writers took makes me feel like my character is a complete moron with words crammed into his mouth. They could have done better. I will probably enjoy Elsweyr but I did not enjoy this introduction.

Meanwhile, Abnur Tharn:

https://m.soundcloud.com/bethesda-softworks/abnur-tharn-en/s-tFN1d

Number_51 · April 2019

Not really coming down on either side of the overall question, but as Grand Chancellor and the head of the Elder Council, in a empire without an emperor (or a stabilizing one at any rate), wouldn't it sorta be Tharn's duty to take/protect The Amulet for The Empire? Not that he couldn't or wouldn't have his own interests in mind in doing so.

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2019

Number_51 wrote: »

Not really coming down on either side of the overall question, but as Grand Chancellor and the head of the Elder Council, in a empire without an emperor (or a stabilizing one at any rate), wouldn't it sorta be Tharn's duty to take/protect The Amulet for The Empire? Not that he couldn't or wouldn't have his own interests in mind in doing so.

This might very well be. Don't you think our character would have words about how things were handled? Don't you think Abnur Tharn would have found better words for approaching the Vestige-Hero-Protagonist? The way this story was written the words seem to be crammed down Abnur Tharns' throat as much as the Protagonists'. I think they could have done a better job and maintained the same storyline if they had done a better job conveying Tharn's apologies or excuses to the player character. I believe this is the crux of my complaint and apparently the complaints of other players.

RaddlemanNumber7 · April 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I shake my head. So many players on this thread have misread Tharn. These players have mistakenly assumed that Tharn is a transgressor, or a necromancer, or even an antagonist. But a new part of the game has appeared which treats Tharn as if he is none of those things. Now these players are saying that the Devs have made a mistake, that the game's writers have written the dialogue of the Elsweyr Prologue wrong. And these players fault Tharn for his arrogance. I shake my head.

So very tempted to shake my head back at you.

But you know what?

Its a roleplaying game. We can all have different interpretations, and the Devs don't get to mandate whether our characters liked Tharn or not. I have a character who I role play as a former Imperial legionnaire who now works for Tharn and she absolutely agrees with you that Tharn is the best person to hold onto the Amulet. My Vestige thinks it ought to go to the Drake of Blades, who's done far more to safeguard the return of a Dragonborn Emperor than Tharn.

It's a roleplaying game. Neither of us get to mandate an interpretation of Tharn and call each other "wrong", even as we obviously have alternate interpretations of him.

I would have been happy with Tharn having a simple answer to the relatively neutral "Why should I trust you? Meridia told me you ran off with the Amulet of Kings."

Because that happened. And the devs dropped it like a hot potato, leaving that question unanswered, and I'm disappointed by their decision.

I do not disagree with anything you are saying about roleplay. I would not attempt to correct another player's roleplay or headcanon. But this is a "Lore" thread, not a "Fiction and Roleplaying" thread. Comments made about Lore can be wrong.

Posters are coming on this Lore thread and saying that Tharn has transgressed, that Tharn is a necromancer, that Tharn nefariously absconded with the Amulet of Kings (as if it is somehow the property of Vestige). That the game's writers have made a mistake in ignoring these things.

I have seen no evidence of any of these supposed wrongdoings by Tharn. Where in Lore or in game dialogue does it say any of this about Tharn? Where are the citations and screen shots to back up these claims about Tharn? I see none. It is my opinion that these claims about Tharn are wrong in this thread because they are against Lore.

Tharn is a necromancer. In the Main Quest, he tells you how to make a flesh atronach and comments "We'll make a necromancer of you yet." Yes, the Devs are aware of this.

https://twitter.com/TESOnline/status/1110206214858784768

In his own words, he gave an oath of loyalty to Mannimarco so he wouldn't be killed. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chronicles_of_the_Five_Companions_4

At the end of the Main Quest, Meridia tells the Vestige (I'm quoting from the screenshots I have saved, you can go look up a youtube video yourself if you actually want evidence)
Vestige: Where is the Amulet of Kings?
Meridia: As your enemy fell, the one you call Abnur Tharn took Chim-el Adabal and fled. He returns to the land from whence he came, the place you call Cyrodiil.
Vestige: He took the Amulet with him?
Meridia: The Amulet's power has been expended for a generation or more. The Imperial will not be able to use it, nor will he profit from it, though he will spend many frustrated years in the attempt.

Later, in the Harborage (possibly subject to change depending on who you sacrifice:
Sai Sahan: Wait, where is Tharn? Did he survive?
Cadwell: He vanished. Ran off, I think. And he took the amulet you chaps found, with him.
Then, in conversation with Sai Sahan:
Vestige: Aren't you going to chase after Tharn?
Sai Sahan: To what end? No, let him return to his Imperial City. He played his role and that is enough. Grudges are like poison to the spirit.

So whether or not you think its nefarious that Tharn ran off with it (that being up to player interpretation), it is true that we've been told that he took it, which makes it a logical point of conversation for the next time he shows up out of the blue wanting our help.

I think the Devs missed an excellent chance to ask the eternal question.

Tharn asks the Vestige to conjure a flesh atro using the necro equipment in "The Tower of The Worm". This tells us nothing about Tharn's own skills with Necromancy unless you make a false inference or make your own assumptions about the situation. Let me try to clarify this using an analogy:

We are in a concert hall. Tharn points the Vestige at a piano and some sheet music, then asks us to play the tune. What does this request tell us about Tharn's own ability to play the piano? It tells us nothing one way or the other.

Regarding "We'll make a Necromancer of you yet," you misunderstand the English. The set phrase "We'll make a [...] of you yet" is an idiom. The [...] is always a competency of some kind. This idiom has as much literal meaning as the idiom "It's raining cats and dogs". The idiom "We'll make a [...] of you yet" is a patronising joke aimed at a junior by a senior, helpfully pointing out that the a piece of work the junior has just completed is a mere parody of what a competent person would have done. Going back to the piano analogy, if the task was completed when the Vestige had managed to noobishly plinky-plonk their way through a small bit of music, Tharn might say "We'll make a concert pianist of you yet." That is how the idiom used. The General usage of this idiom and the particular circumstances in which Tharn uses it in the Tower of the Worm entirely preclude any possibility of it being a literal statement of intent. It is just another snarky Tharnish put down.

So, that part of the game provides no evidence one way or another regarding Tharn's status as a Necromancer.

In the Chronicles of the Five Companions volume that you linked Tharn says he is a Sorcerer. Sorcery is not Necromancy.

To conclude on the evidence above that Tharn is a Necromancer is at best unfounded headcanon.

Regarding Tharn's involvement with Mannimarco: In dialogue, when Tharn first arrives in the Harborage, just after the lying, hypocritical, brutish, axe-killer Lyris Titanborn has punched this little 164-year-old man to the ground, Tharn says, "Mannimarco wants me dead! Did I pretend to capitulate to him? Yes, I did. Do you have any idea how many lives I saved by doing so?" Would those many lives saved not be sufficient to explain Tharn's actions? To dismiss Tharn's explanation of his actions is to make an arbitrary assumption about the game, more headcanon.

The Amulet of Kings: You quote Sai Sahan after the main quest. After all that Sai Sahan went through to protect the Amulet he doesn't even mention it. He clearly believes it has no further value. If you take Meridia at her word the Amulet is spent and useless for a generation. The amulet is clearly irrelevant to the Elsweyr Prologue. If it is useless, if it is irrelevant, if even Sai Sahan can't be bothered to mention it, why should the Devs have the Vestige mention it?

It seems to me that you, and others in this thread, are criticising the Devs for not pandering to your mistaken and arbitrary headcanon. That is why I have taken the time to correct you. Nothing personal.