Euraxia: Some lore problems

Lyserus · March 2019

1.Euraxia is suppose to be younger than Clivia, which in this trailer she looks as old as Abnur Tharn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWuJroAF2mA

2.Euraxia knew she is going to be queen of Rimmen since she is a child, how comes in the story now she obtained the throne through a coup? It's not like she knew she is gonna overthrown rimmen's original government since she is six

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25429
^This is where it indicates the compare age of Euraxia and Clivia, and Euraxia already knew she is gonna be a queen since six
(Also there is the problem with Septima, Clivia and Euraxia's relation, they can't be sisters tho Septima refer them as sisters in the letter and mentioned "father" like they share one, which they can't actually share one since Euraxia is Clivia's young aunt)

@ZOS_LeamonTuttle

Tib · March 2019

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Euraxia is suppose to be younger than Clivia, which in this trailer she looks as old as Abnur Tharn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWuJroAF2mA

2.Euraxia knew she is going to be queen of Rimmen since she is a child, how comes in the story now she obtained the throne through a coup? It's not like she knew she is gonna overthrown rimmen's original government since she is six

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25429
^This is where it indicates the compare age of Euraxia and Clivia, and Euraxia already knew she is gonna be a queen since six

@ZOS_LeamonTuttle

Hm, are you saying Euraxia is both Abnur Tharn's daughter and half-sister?

That sounds complicated

starkerealm · March 2019

I keep having Chinatown flashbacks, every time this comes up.

therift · March 2019

1) Clivia could be using a magical process to appear younger. There is insufficient data about Clivia and Euraxia to claim the trailer is inaccurate.

2) Just because Euraxia was raised to be Queen of Rimmen does not mean that the people of Rimmen will accept her as Queen.

Relax. It's all good

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

Nice find!

Jaimeh · March 2019

Since they were playing a game, and Clivia was winning over the Rimmen territory, you could interpret Euraxia's claim as a child's tantrum, and not a literal thing. She didn't know she would become Queen of that area but she said it in a 'Oh yeah? Well when I become so and so, I will show you!' way. The fact that she did take over Rimmen may be coincidental or born from a childhood trauma dating back to that day (that's often the case with fictional super-villains ^^;). Anyway, that's one way you can think about it--as for the daughter/half-sister thing, well maybe she was Abnur's much younger half-sister, that he ended up adopting, who knows?

starkerealm · March 2019

therift wrote: »

2) Just because Euraxia was raised to be Queen of Rimmen does not mean that the people of Rimmen will accept her as Queen.

A couple possibilities here.

Her claim to the throne may be hereditary, from a time when Rimmen was under Imperial rule. (This would also make sense if that claim is from the parent she does not share with Abnur.) She would have been raised with the perspective that she was the rightful ruler, which the Khajiit would not agree with.

Her claim may be fraudulent, and date back to the aspirations of the Tharn dynasty before the Soulburst. This is a bit more speculative, because we don't have hard information on exactly what the Tharn family was up to before they sidded with Mannimarco. Though, it's possible they'd already drawn up plans to carve Tamriel apart among themselves after some power play. Probably via conspiracy with Mannimarco, before Abnur realized the King of Worms would betray them. The timing is dicey, but it's possible that these plans were being hatched while Euraxia was still a child.

Also worth remembering, even in the real world it's entirely possible to have huge gaps in age between siblings. As a personal example, my oldest brother is more than 20 years my senior. Given the Tharn family prolongs their lives with magic, it's not unreasonable that Tharn's half-sister is, in fact, the same age as his daughters.

Tib · March 2019

Jaimeh wrote: »

Since they were playing a game, and Clivia was winning over the Rimmen territory, you could interpret Euraxia's claim as a child's tantrum, and not a literal thing. She didn't know she would become Queen of that area but she said it in a 'Oh yeah? Well when I become so and so, I will show you!' way. The fact that she did take over Rimmen may be coincidental or born from a childhood trauma dating back to that day (that's often the case with fictional super-villains ^^;). Anyway, that's one way you can think about it--as for the daughter/half-sister thing, well maybe she was Abnur's much younger half-sister, that he ended up adopting, who knows?

starkerealm wrote: »

therift wrote: »

2) Just because Euraxia was raised to be Queen of Rimmen does not mean that the people of Rimmen will accept her as Queen.

A couple possibilities here.

Her claim to the throne may be hereditary, from a time when Rimmen was under Imperial rule. (This would also make sense if that claim is from the parent she does not share with Abnur.) She would have been raised with the perspective that she was the rightful ruler, which the Khajiit would not agree with.

Her claim may be fraudulent, and date back to the aspirations of the Tharn dynasty before the Soulburst. This is a bit more speculative, because we don't have hard information on exactly what the Tharn family was up to before they sidded with Mannimarco. Though, it's possible they'd already drawn up plans to carve Tamriel apart among themselves after some power play. Probably via conspiracy with Mannimarco, before Abnur realized the King of Worms would betray them. The timing is dicey, but it's possible that these plans were being hatched while Euraxia was still a child.

Also worth remembering, even in the real world it's entirely possible to have huge gaps in age between siblings. As a personal example, my oldest brother is more than 20 years my senior. Given the Tharn family prolongs their lives with magic, it's not unreasonable that Tharn's half-sister is, in fact, the same age as his daughters.

None of it explains why she would then look considerably older though (which was Lyserus' question)

Jaimeh · March 2019

Tib wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Since they were playing a game, and Clivia was winning over the Rimmen territory, you could interpret Euraxia's claim as a child's tantrum, and not a literal thing. She didn't know she would become Queen of that area but she said it in a 'Oh yeah? Well when I become so and so, I will show you!' way. The fact that she did take over Rimmen may be coincidental or born from a childhood trauma dating back to that day (that's often the case with fictional super-villains ^^;). Anyway, that's one way you can think about it--as for the daughter/half-sister thing, well maybe she was Abnur's much younger half-sister, that he ended up adopting, who knows?

starkerealm wrote: »

therift wrote: »

2) Just because Euraxia was raised to be Queen of Rimmen does not mean that the people of Rimmen will accept her as Queen.

A couple possibilities here.

Her claim to the throne may be hereditary, from a time when Rimmen was under Imperial rule. (This would also make sense if that claim is from the parent she does not share with Abnur.) She would have been raised with the perspective that she was the rightful ruler, which the Khajiit would not agree with.

Her claim may be fraudulent, and date back to the aspirations of the Tharn dynasty before the Soulburst. This is a bit more speculative, because we don't have hard information on exactly what the Tharn family was up to before they sidded with Mannimarco. Though, it's possible they'd already drawn up plans to carve Tamriel apart among themselves after some power play. Probably via conspiracy with Mannimarco, before Abnur realized the King of Worms would betray them. The timing is dicey, but it's possible that these plans were being hatched while Euraxia was still a child.

Also worth remembering, even in the real world it's entirely possible to have huge gaps in age between siblings. As a personal example, my oldest brother is more than 20 years my senior. Given the Tharn family prolongs their lives with magic, it's not unreasonable that Tharn's half-sister is, in fact, the same age as his daughters.

None of it explains why she would then look considerably older though (which was Lyserus' question)

Actually, if you take out the white hair (which can happen regardless of age), her face doesn't look much different than Clivia's from that photo in the article. It could be that Clivia took better care of her appearance/health? For me, they look comparable, which falls in line with their small age difference...

Lyserus · March 2019

Tib wrote: »

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Euraxia is suppose to be younger than Clivia, which in this trailer she looks as old as Abnur Tharn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWuJroAF2mA

2.Euraxia knew she is going to be queen of Rimmen since she is a child, how comes in the story now she obtained the throne through a coup? It's not like she knew she is gonna overthrown rimmen's original government since she is six

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25429
^This is where it indicates the compare age of Euraxia and Clivia, and Euraxia already knew she is gonna be a queen since six

@ZOS_LeamonTuttle

Hm, are you saying Euraxia is both Abnur Tharn's daughter and half-sister? That sounds complicated

Yeah that's another problem....Septima refer Clivia and Euraxia as sisters (you can say that's only because they are similar age, but she mentioned "father" in a tongue like they share a father, which contradict greatly with in game lore), while in game Euraxia is Clivia's young aunt, and Septima has unknown relationship with Abnur's branch, but either way, she can't be both Euraxia and Clivia's sister

gepe87 · March 2019

Is AD completely absent? Dragons in Elsweyr and elves do not mind and send an agent to deal with a problem? The Mane himself should appear to combat this threat ... Is Veiled Queen more dangerous than dragons or an imperial occupation, a strike at heart of the alliance? They may ignore some lore highlights, but at least maintain some coherence.

starkerealm · March 2019

Lyserus wrote: »

Tib wrote: »

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Euraxia is suppose to be younger than Clivia, which in this trailer she looks as old as Abnur Tharn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWuJroAF2mA

2.Euraxia knew she is going to be queen of Rimmen since she is a child, how comes in the story now she obtained the throne through a coup? It's not like she knew she is gonna overthrown rimmen's original government since she is six

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25429
^This is where it indicates the compare age of Euraxia and Clivia, and Euraxia already knew she is gonna be a queen since six

@ZOS_LeamonTuttle

Hm, are you saying Euraxia is both Abnur Tharn's daughter and half-sister? That sounds complicated

Yeah that's another problem....Septima refer Clivia and Euraxia as sisters (you can say that's only because they are similar age, but she mentioned "father" in a tongue like they share a father, which contradict greatly with in game lore), while in game Euraxia is Clivia's young aunt, and Septima has unknown relationship with Abnur's branch, but either way, she can't be both Euraxia and Clivia's sister

Could be they were raised, "as sisters," together. Or it could indicate that the Tharn family tree is more tangled than we want to think about.

MLGProPlayer · March 2019

gepe87 wrote: »

Is AD completely absent? Dragons in Elsweyr and elves do not mind and send an agent to deal with a problem? The Mane himself should appear to combat this threat ... Is Veiled Queen more dangerous than dragons or an imperial occupation, a strike at heart of the alliance? They may ignore some lore highlights, but at least maintain some coherence.

Cat people and humans getting eaten by dragons in an empty desert. Big deal. Nobody in AD leadership cares. They'll come clean up the mess when the dust settles.

JD2013 · March 2019

I wonder what actually happened to Clivia? Hmmmm.

starkerealm · March 2019

JD2013 wrote: »

I wonder what actually happened to Clivia? Hmmmm.

My impression was, either she was possessed by Molag Kena (we've seen Sheogorath do this, but that's the only example I can think of, so it might not be possible.) Or, Kena killed and replaced her as a doppleganger at some point. Possibly around the same time that Abnur was exiled to Coldharbour.

Skwor · March 2019

Lore is whatever they want it to be. Have you never seen a history fact to be found incorrect later as more was discovered?

Get over it.

Lore serves the game, the game does not serve lore.

dazee · March 2019

Molag Kena has a line of dialouge which says "She is as lost to you as the White Gold Tower" referencing Clivia Tharn.

BahometZ · March 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

I keep having Chinatown flashbacks, every time this comes up.

Forget it, Jake.

Also, I simply don't see anything that troubling here. When you've been alive for 160+ years, family trees get messy. Plenty of families in real life have these sorts of issues, being raised as a sister/cousin to someone who is actually their mother, due to unwanted pregnancy in youth as an example. Or people referring to each other as sister because they're about the same age. You simply can not get too literal with these matters. Any scenario you care to name has occurred in real life, so in a fictional lore, it's all on.

Euraxia saying "When I'm Queen you'll see" is just a 6 year old tantrum, it's not a statement of certainty.

As to Euraxia looking older than Clivia. Dude, there are dragons, there is teleportation, just chalk it off to magic and move on.

starkerealm · March 2019

BahometZ wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

I keep having Chinatown flashbacks, every time this comes up.

Forget it, Jake.

Also, I simply don't see anything that troubling here. When you've been alive for 160+ years, family trees get messy. Plenty of families in real life have these sorts of issues, being raised as a sister/cousin to someone who is actually their mother, due to unwanted pregnancy in youth as an example. Or people referring to each other as sister because they're about the same age. You simply can not get too literal with these matters. Any scenario you care to name has occurred in real life, so in a fictional lore, it's all on.

Euraxia saying "When I'm Queen you'll see" is just a 6 year old tantrum, it's not a statement of certainty.

As to Euraxia looking older than Clivia. Dude, there are dragons, there is teleportation, just chalk it off to magic and move on.

Amusingly, one example of that is Jack Nicholson. He was the product of a teenage pregnancy, so his grandparents claimed he was their child. From what I remember, he didn't learn about this until years after Chinatown, during an interview. But, I can't find the details on short notice.

Vizikul · March 2019

Lyserus wrote: »

Tib wrote: »

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Euraxia is suppose to be younger than Clivia, which in this trailer she looks as old as Abnur Tharn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWuJroAF2mA

2.Euraxia knew she is going to be queen of Rimmen since she is a child, how comes in the story now she obtained the throne through a coup? It's not like she knew she is gonna overthrown rimmen's original government since she is six

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25429
^This is where it indicates the compare age of Euraxia and Clivia, and Euraxia already knew she is gonna be a queen since six

@ZOS_LeamonTuttle

Hm, are you saying Euraxia is both Abnur Tharn's daughter and half-sister? That sounds complicated

Yeah that's another problem....Septima refer Clivia and Euraxia as sisters (you can say that's only because they are similar age, but she mentioned "father" in a tongue like they share a father, which contradict greatly with in game lore), while in game Euraxia is Clivia's young aunt, and Septima has unknown relationship with Abnur's branch, but either way, she can't be both Euraxia and Clivia's sister

There could still be a second Euraxia Tharn. She could be Abnur's half-sister and have a daughter of the same name. Then, Septima could have pledged a blood pact with Clivia and Euraxia junior to become blood siblings.

If I recall correctly, Septima is a cousin of Abnur. When you are going to face Molag Bal after you completed the Bangkorai Questline, and talk to Septima Tharn in the God of Schemes quest, Abnur makes a statement about his relation to her.

Skwor wrote: »

Lore serves the game, the game does not serve lore.

That's not entirely true, otherwise they wouldn't have a lore master.

DarcyMardin · March 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Also worth remembering, even in the real world it's entirely possible to have huge gaps in age between siblings. As a personal example, my oldest brother is more than 20 years my senior. Given the Tharn family prolongs their lives with magic, it's not unreasonable that Tharn's half-sister is, in fact, the same age as his daughters.

True—here’s another real world example: my older sister was two years older than the youngest of our aunts. My mother and my grandmother were having children at the same time. My mum was in her early 20s and my gran was in her early 40s.

So in a population with longer lifespans and reproductive years, things could indeed get very confusing.

Lyserus · March 2019

Skwor wrote: »

Lore is whatever they want it to be. Have you never seen a history fact to be found incorrect later as more was discovered?

Get over it.

Lore serves the game, the game does not serve lore.

don't be edgy teen plz

This is a logic contradiction in game, and such mistakes serve literally nothing to the game

Dracan_Fontom · March 2019

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Euraxia is suppose to be younger than Clivia, which in this trailer she looks as old as Abnur Tharn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWuJroAF2mA

2.Euraxia knew she is going to be queen of Rimmen since she is a child, how comes in the story now she obtained the throne through a coup? It's not like she knew she is gonna overthrown rimmen's original government since she is six

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25429
^This is where it indicates the compare age of Euraxia and Clivia, and Euraxia already knew she is gonna be a queen since six
(Also there is the problem with Septima, Clivia and Euraxia's relation, they can't be sisters tho Septima refer them as sisters in the letter and mentioned "father" like they share one, which they can't actually share one since Euraxia is Clivia's young aunt)

@ZOS_LeamonTuttle

Just cause Euraxia is younger doesn't mean she'll age in a certain way. There are people are in their 50s and look like they are 30. And vice versa