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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Why not make Skyshards and Mages Books account bound.
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pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Kidgangster101 wrote: »ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »Mages guild books is how you level the mages guild skill line. If you're going to make that account wide and make every character start off with the same amount of books/level, then do the same for fighters guild/daedra and undead killed. In fact, do the same for dark brotherhood and thieves guild because who wants to to grind through contracts and heists and sacraments to level those? And also, why not max out the psijic skill line too so we don't have to hunt down rifts again and again and again? In fact, once you've done everything on one character just make EVERYTHING available on all future characters. Titles. Achievements. Remove pvp alliances because why not? Max those out once we've maxed all the pvp skill lines out for one character. Remove any and all challenge or grind from the game because that's what mmo's are all about. This is a game. We shouldn't have to WORK to become the best there ever was at any given thing on any given class or build.</sarcasm>
Not our fault skyhards/lorebooks/psijic are anti-gamplay braindead mechanics....that dont involve any gameplay.
Once you finally figure that out....maybe youll have somethign wortwhile to say, shyshards should have ALWAYS been account wide and mage guild/psijic tied to questlines just like "world" skill line with main quest.
Achievements too should have ALWAYS been account wide.
Skyshards and lorebooks are only anti-gameplay braindead mechanics to those who choose to develop characters through anti-gameplay braindead mechanics. If they're picked up as you play through a zone in the way it was intended to be played then they fall into place as an integral part of that gameplay.
So PVP, dungeons, trials or whatever are not intended ways to play the game. Only running around in zones doing the same quests for the tenth time is the intended way to play the game and integral part of gameplay. Wow just wow. Any other dumb argument to make? lol
Yep this is not a single player game. It's actual intentions are to get you in a group to play with others because it is a MMMORPG if you want to play alone doing the same quests over and over and over again then maybe you should play any other elder scrolls and stay away from the online version?
Dont tell that to me. Tell it to the guy who thinks this is skyrim v2.01 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »I never said there was only my way to play, or that there is only 1 way to play. I said that focusing your time specifically on collecting skyshards is incredibly boring and you deserve to bored if you're doing that.
Well, that's a mistake. As a game designer you should never seek to bore your player. You may attempt to restrict what a player does by making a process more tedious, but a bored player will look for other ways to entertain themselves. At that point, the best you can hope is that they'll only be looking at websites while waiting for load screens. At worst, they will simply fire up a different game and never return. Actively punishing a player with tedious activities is behavior that should be considered very carefully.
Also worth remembering, the Skyshards grind is supposed to be even more punishing than it is in practice. We're not supposed to have maps on hand that point us to the right locations, or addons that plant the shards on our map. Now, those are acceptable, but we are supposed to wander around aimlessly, interpreting cryptic riddles, looking for the things. Some of the boredom has already been alleviated. It was supposed to be even more punishing in its original iteration.
As with a number of mechanics in the game, it reflects another era of the game's design. One that doesn't fit as well with the game that exists today.Whatever silly excuses you use to justify that behavior are on you. It especially does not mean that the game needs to be streamlined, dumbed down, made more accessible, or otherwise changed to cater to your proclivities.
Wow, you broke out the dictionary for this. It would have been nice if you'd picked some appropriate arguments.
So, let's take these in no particular order:
If the game is not accessible, that's a problem. Full stop. If you're making a game, your primary source of income is from selling that game to players. Making a game obtuse or inaccessible is an option, but it's a risky one. In the case of a game that also serves as a recurring revenue stream, an inaccessible game is a poorly design choice.
ZOS has expressed interest in making the game more accessible over the years. The guild trader system, the group finder... hell, One Tamriel stands as a monument to increased accessibility.
For ESO to thrive, it does need to be as accessible as reasonably possible. At that point, picking a random collectible and screaming, "THIS IS THE HILL I WILL DIE ON!" is a little peculiar.
Dumbing a game down is when the intricacies of the game are stripped out in the name of making the game more accessible. For example, the removal of a player inventory in Bioshock was considered "dumbing it down" from System Shock 2's system.
There is no real example of ESO being dumbed down. You might be able to point to the overhaul of the Provisioning system, or the introduction of One Tamriel as examples of this, but those didn't really dumb down the experience, they simply took pain points and dealt with them.
Which is the other term you chucked out as a pejorative: Streamlining. Streamlining is where you look at issues with a game, things that interfere with the flow of the experience, and you identify and implement ways to improve it. You deal with issues that disrupt the experience.
In point of fact, "streamlining," is improving a game. Now, I know, a lot of developers do say, "we streamlined this," as code for taking out choices or options. That can happen. If ESO chose to do away with skill points, attribute points, and skill lines entirely, then locking you to specific skills on your bar based on your equipped gear, that would streamline builds, but it would also dumb down the experience.
As mentioned above, ESO has undergone some significant streamlining. The huge example is One Tamriel. Before that, if you were in different alliances and wanted to do PvE content together, you needed to either group into the same dungeon, or make sure your characters were roughly the same level, roughly in range for the content you wanted to do, and were both the same Alliance. Now, if my friend picks up the game, I can jump over there, regardless of character, and give them a hand. That's streamlining.
Collecting Skyshards is a pain point. There's no engaging gameplay decision involved in locating or using them. Certainly not after you've found them the first time. It's simply busywork. So, within that perspective, changing that system radically would be a QoL improvement.
Also, I realize you may have missed this, but, a "proclivity" is an innate impulse. You're probably familiar with it from people referring to someone's "sexual proclivities," which is a clever(ish) way to say that someone's sexual drive is unnatural and perverse. All of this is, not exactly, relevant to a discussion on ESO, (or, at least, I dearly hope it's not applicable.)
I think pvp is boring. I have caltrops on one of my characters. I want caltrops on all of my characters, though. The alliance war skill lines need to be account wide so I can have caltrops on every new character without ever having to pvp ever again.
This needs to happen because I dont like pvp and if Zos doesn't do it they will lose money because I said so.
I don't want to level legerdemain anymore either. Maybe we should add that to the list, because I think it's boring...
The PVP abilities are a way to make all players try PVP. Its a way to promote their PVP content. You are actually doing something engaging to get those abilities. You try PVP for 2-3 hours, get the abilities you want while also making AP which can be converted to gold. Its easier to get the PVP abilities, there are more incentives to get them such as gold and AP events every year and the abilities are not as mandatory as other entire skill lines so your point about losing money because its a turn off for players goes out the window. This is not even remotely close to mages guild grind.
The fact that you are even comparing trying out PVP for 2 hours to get a couple of abilities that are not even mandatory for everything while also making gold to aimlessly running around reading books actively trying to avoid any engaging game mechanic for 6-7 hours shows how completely out of touch with reality you are. And thats for mages guild alone. Then you can add other stuff to the mix and end up with a 20+ hour braindead grind that promotes nothing but actually avoiding playing the game. Thats how dumb it is.
But if giving you vigor on all ur characters meant the end of torture of the stupid grind then by all means you can have it.Edited by pieratsos on March 24, 2019 7:13AM1 -
r34lian✭✭✭✭✭
✭corpseblade wrote: »It sounds like PvPers are trying to change the PvE experience.
So collecting books ,skyshard and rift for nth time is a "pve"experience?
2000 CP • 18 Maxed Characters • 6 Altmers • 7 Redguards • Necromancer Orc • Warden Dunmer • DK Nord • DK Imperial • Templar Breton4 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »Mages guild books is how you level the mages guild skill line. If you're going to make that account wide and make every character start off with the same amount of books/level, then do the same for fighters guild/daedra and undead killed. In fact, do the same for dark brotherhood and thieves guild because who wants to to grind through contracts and heists and sacraments to level those? And also, why not max out the psijic skill line too so we don't have to hunt down rifts again and again and again? In fact, once you've done everything on one character just make EVERYTHING available on all future characters. Titles. Achievements. Remove pvp alliances because why not? Max those out once we've maxed all the pvp skill lines out for one character. Remove any and all challenge or grind from the game because that's what mmo's are all about. This is a game. We shouldn't have to WORK to become the best there ever was at any given thing on any given class or build.</sarcasm>
Not our fault skyhards/lorebooks/psijic are anti-gamplay braindead mechanics....that dont involve any gameplay.
Once you finally figure that out....maybe youll have somethign wortwhile to say, shyshards should have ALWAYS been account wide and mage guild/psijic tied to questlines just like "world" skill line with main quest.
Achievements too should have ALWAYS been account wide.
Skyshards and lorebooks are only anti-gameplay braindead mechanics to those who choose to develop characters through anti-gameplay braindead mechanics. If they're picked up as you play through a zone in the way it was intended to be played then they fall into place as an integral part of that gameplay.
Wut? Do explain to us in great detail how going to spot x and pressing "Interact" button is not anti-gameplay and braindead. It is not integral to anything it is as braindead as it gets.
And ESOs sales pitch was "play how you WANT", not "play how random Tandor wants to play"
That's rich in a thread where a handful of players want to change the established structure of the game to how they want to play it
!
"Play the way you like" is one of the most misinterpreted terms about the game. If you look on the back of the box you'll see that originally it meant "Adventure alone or together with friends. The choice is yours to make." By One Tamriel this had changed to "Battle, craft, fish, steal or explore. The choice is yours to make in a persistent Elder Scrolls World."1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »Mages guild books is how you level the mages guild skill line. If you're going to make that account wide and make every character start off with the same amount of books/level, then do the same for fighters guild/daedra and undead killed. In fact, do the same for dark brotherhood and thieves guild because who wants to to grind through contracts and heists and sacraments to level those? And also, why not max out the psijic skill line too so we don't have to hunt down rifts again and again and again? In fact, once you've done everything on one character just make EVERYTHING available on all future characters. Titles. Achievements. Remove pvp alliances because why not? Max those out once we've maxed all the pvp skill lines out for one character. Remove any and all challenge or grind from the game because that's what mmo's are all about. This is a game. We shouldn't have to WORK to become the best there ever was at any given thing on any given class or build.</sarcasm>
Not our fault skyhards/lorebooks/psijic are anti-gamplay braindead mechanics....that dont involve any gameplay.
Once you finally figure that out....maybe youll have somethign wortwhile to say, shyshards should have ALWAYS been account wide and mage guild/psijic tied to questlines just like "world" skill line with main quest.
Achievements too should have ALWAYS been account wide.
Skyshards and lorebooks are only anti-gameplay braindead mechanics to those who choose to develop characters through anti-gameplay braindead mechanics. If they're picked up as you play through a zone in the way it was intended to be played then they fall into place as an integral part of that gameplay.
Wut? Do explain to us in great detail how going to spot x and pressing "Interact" button is not anti-gameplay and braindead. It is not integral to anything it is as braindead as it gets.
And ESOs sales pitch was "play how you WANT", not "play how random Tandor wants to play"
That's rich in a thread where a handful of players want to change the established structure of the game to how they want to play it !
"Play the way you like" is one of the most misinterpreted terms about the game. If you look on the back of the box you'll see that originally it meant "Adventure alone or together with friends. The choice is yours to make." By One Tamriel this had changed to "Battle, craft, fish, steal or explore. The choice is yours to make in a persistent Elder Scrolls World."
Making a dumb argument and then ignoring everything people say to you in response to that argument just so you can cherry pick one single sentence, take it out of context and make another equally dumb argument. Good one. Keep up the work.
P.S. Nice try on the "handful". I mean everybody knows that this has been a subject brought up constantly through the years because many if not the majority of people dont like the grind which was one of the reason for mages guilds quests to progress the skill line in the first place but yeah. Was a good attempt non the less.Edited by pieratsos on March 24, 2019 10:29AM2 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »Mages guild books is how you level the mages guild skill line. If you're going to make that account wide and make every character start off with the same amount of books/level, then do the same for fighters guild/daedra and undead killed. In fact, do the same for dark brotherhood and thieves guild because who wants to to grind through contracts and heists and sacraments to level those? And also, why not max out the psijic skill line too so we don't have to hunt down rifts again and again and again? In fact, once you've done everything on one character just make EVERYTHING available on all future characters. Titles. Achievements. Remove pvp alliances because why not? Max those out once we've maxed all the pvp skill lines out for one character. Remove any and all challenge or grind from the game because that's what mmo's are all about. This is a game. We shouldn't have to WORK to become the best there ever was at any given thing on any given class or build.</sarcasm>
Not our fault skyhards/lorebooks/psijic are anti-gamplay braindead mechanics....that dont involve any gameplay.
Once you finally figure that out....maybe youll have somethign wortwhile to say, shyshards should have ALWAYS been account wide and mage guild/psijic tied to questlines just like "world" skill line with main quest.
Achievements too should have ALWAYS been account wide.
Skyshards and lorebooks are only anti-gameplay braindead mechanics to those who choose to develop characters through anti-gameplay braindead mechanics. If they're picked up as you play through a zone in the way it was intended to be played then they fall into place as an integral part of that gameplay.
Wut? Do explain to us in great detail how going to spot x and pressing "Interact" button is not anti-gameplay and braindead. It is not integral to anything it is as braindead as it gets.
And ESOs sales pitch was "play how you WANT", not "play how random Tandor wants to play"
That's rich in a thread where a handful of players want to change the established structure of the game to how they want to play it !
"Play the way you like" is one of the most misinterpreted terms about the game. If you look on the back of the box you'll see that originally it meant "Adventure alone or together with friends. The choice is yours to make." By One Tamriel this had changed to "Battle, craft, fish, steal or explore. The choice is yours to make in a persistent Elder Scrolls World."
Making a dumb argument and then ignoring everything people say to you in response to that argument just so you can cherry pick one single sentence, take it out of context and make another equally dumb argument. Good one. Keep up the work.
P.S. Nice try on the "handful". I mean everybody knows that this has been a subject brought up constantly through the years because many if not the majority of people dont like the grind which was one of the reason for mages guilds quests to progress the skill line in the first place but yeah. Was a good attempt non the less.
Considering the number of players who routinely ask for this as a proportion of the number playing the game, it's definitely only a handful, as it is in simple numerical terms in this thread alone. A few players regurgitating the same tired arguments for a dozen pages doesn't indicate widespread support or add anything new to those arguments.1 -
Miswar✭✭✭✭✭Considering the that 99% are not even on the forums how can you state that it is not wide spread opinion.
I have yet to find anyone in game that enjoys, thinks that collecting some damn lorebooks is good idea, fun or as someone said "integral part of game". Maybe I have met more intelligent people in game who actually would like to play the game. There are enough of grinds already in the game without all this nonsense.
It is just boredom and yes there should a ways to collect these books when you have done them all once.
Oh... and before someone states that go grind well I have actually and personally have nothing to gain from that change.
Same goes for that psijic skill line which is just as bad design.
The game is old already and these type of bad game designs do no favours to the game itself.
I'am not fussed about skyshards that much because there are ways to gain skill points by other means as well. I'am fine either way on these and having said that collecting same skyshard for the 15th time is not exactly what people would call fun.
...also there is nothing wrong pinpointing bad game design again... no changes have been done and it is just as brain dead idea it was years ago.
Skill lines should at least update/upgrade the same ways that Fighters guild, PvP skill lines which are not just dumb run from point A to B than C. There should be more meaningful ways and if you cannot see this than you are just blind or dumb. Take your pick from that but they should focus on improving the game instead of stagnating the product.Edited by Miswar on March 24, 2019 11:13AM0 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Kidgangster101 wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »I never said there was only my way to play, or that there is only 1 way to play. I said that focusing your time specifically on collecting skyshards is incredibly boring and you deserve to bored if you're doing that.
Well, that's a mistake. As a game designer you should never seek to bore your player. You may attempt to restrict what a player does by making a process more tedious, but a bored player will look for other ways to entertain themselves. At that point, the best you can hope is that they'll only be looking at websites while waiting for load screens. At worst, they will simply fire up a different game and never return. Actively punishing a player with tedious activities is behavior that should be considered very carefully.
Also worth remembering, the Skyshards grind is supposed to be even more punishing than it is in practice. We're not supposed to have maps on hand that point us to the right locations, or addons that plant the shards on our map. Now, those are acceptable, but we are supposed to wander around aimlessly, interpreting cryptic riddles, looking for the things. Some of the boredom has already been alleviated. It was supposed to be even more punishing in its original iteration.
As with a number of mechanics in the game, it reflects another era of the game's design. One that doesn't fit as well with the game that exists today.Whatever silly excuses you use to justify that behavior are on you. It especially does not mean that the game needs to be streamlined, dumbed down, made more accessible, or otherwise changed to cater to your proclivities.
Wow, you broke out the dictionary for this. It would have been nice if you'd picked some appropriate arguments.
So, let's take these in no particular order:
If the game is not accessible, that's a problem. Full stop. If you're making a game, your primary source of income is from selling that game to players. Making a game obtuse or inaccessible is an option, but it's a risky one. In the case of a game that also serves as a recurring revenue stream, an inaccessible game is a poorly design choice.
ZOS has expressed interest in making the game more accessible over the years. The guild trader system, the group finder... hell, One Tamriel stands as a monument to increased accessibility.
For ESO to thrive, it does need to be as accessible as reasonably possible. At that point, picking a random collectible and screaming, "THIS IS THE HILL I WILL DIE ON!" is a little peculiar.
Dumbing a game down is when the intricacies of the game are stripped out in the name of making the game more accessible. For example, the removal of a player inventory in Bioshock was considered "dumbing it down" from System Shock 2's system.
There is no real example of ESO being dumbed down. You might be able to point to the overhaul of the Provisioning system, or the introduction of One Tamriel as examples of this, but those didn't really dumb down the experience, they simply took pain points and dealt with them.
Which is the other term you chucked out as a pejorative: Streamlining. Streamlining is where you look at issues with a game, things that interfere with the flow of the experience, and you identify and implement ways to improve it. You deal with issues that disrupt the experience.
In point of fact, "streamlining," is improving a game. Now, I know, a lot of developers do say, "we streamlined this," as code for taking out choices or options. That can happen. If ESO chose to do away with skill points, attribute points, and skill lines entirely, then locking you to specific skills on your bar based on your equipped gear, that would streamline builds, but it would also dumb down the experience.
As mentioned above, ESO has undergone some significant streamlining. The huge example is One Tamriel. Before that, if you were in different alliances and wanted to do PvE content together, you needed to either group into the same dungeon, or make sure your characters were roughly the same level, roughly in range for the content you wanted to do, and were both the same Alliance. Now, if my friend picks up the game, I can jump over there, regardless of character, and give them a hand. That's streamlining.
Collecting Skyshards is a pain point. There's no engaging gameplay decision involved in locating or using them. Certainly not after you've found them the first time. It's simply busywork. So, within that perspective, changing that system radically would be a QoL improvement.
Also, I realize you may have missed this, but, a "proclivity" is an innate impulse. You're probably familiar with it from people referring to someone's "sexual proclivities," which is a clever(ish) way to say that someone's sexual drive is unnatural and perverse. All of this is, not exactly, relevant to a discussion on ESO, (or, at least, I dearly hope it's not applicable.)
I think pvp is boring. I have caltrops on one of my characters. I want caltrops on all of my characters, though. The alliance war skill lines need to be account wide so I can have caltrops on every new character without ever having to pvp ever again.
This needs to happen because I dont like pvp and if Zos doesn't do it they will lose money because I said so.
I don't want to level legerdemain anymore either. Maybe we should add that to the list, because I think it's boring...
Lololol be glad they nerfed the skill lines in pvp for you because it only takes 2-3 hours to get now compared to what it use to be maybe they should bring it back up to make people have to pvp more!
There is a huge difference between the 2-3 hours it takes in battlegrounds than the 25+ hours it takes to grind skyshards/mages guild/ psijic. Just saying they already nerfed pvp skill line into the ground because pve players cried non stop about the grind.
I shouldn't have to pvp at all. It should just be account wide because I don't want to do the content associated with that reward. It's stupid and Zos isn't pandering to me enough. That pretty much means the game is going to die.
I also don't want to run the same dungeons I've already run a billion times on my other characters. It's so boring! I've memorized the dungeons already!
Undaunted needs to be account wide because I should not have to level it on every character I make.Edited by srfrogg23 on March 24, 2019 11:21AM1 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »I never said there was only my way to play, or that there is only 1 way to play. I said that focusing your time specifically on collecting skyshards is incredibly boring and you deserve to bored if you're doing that.
Well, that's a mistake. As a game designer you should never seek to bore your player. You may attempt to restrict what a player does by making a process more tedious, but a bored player will look for other ways to entertain themselves. At that point, the best you can hope is that they'll only be looking at websites while waiting for load screens. At worst, they will simply fire up a different game and never return. Actively punishing a player with tedious activities is behavior that should be considered very carefully.
Also worth remembering, the Skyshards grind is supposed to be even more punishing than it is in practice. We're not supposed to have maps on hand that point us to the right locations, or addons that plant the shards on our map. Now, those are acceptable, but we are supposed to wander around aimlessly, interpreting cryptic riddles, looking for the things. Some of the boredom has already been alleviated. It was supposed to be even more punishing in its original iteration.
As with a number of mechanics in the game, it reflects another era of the game's design. One that doesn't fit as well with the game that exists today.Whatever silly excuses you use to justify that behavior are on you. It especially does not mean that the game needs to be streamlined, dumbed down, made more accessible, or otherwise changed to cater to your proclivities.
Wow, you broke out the dictionary for this. It would have been nice if you'd picked some appropriate arguments.
So, let's take these in no particular order:
If the game is not accessible, that's a problem. Full stop. If you're making a game, your primary source of income is from selling that game to players. Making a game obtuse or inaccessible is an option, but it's a risky one. In the case of a game that also serves as a recurring revenue stream, an inaccessible game is a poorly design choice.
ZOS has expressed interest in making the game more accessible over the years. The guild trader system, the group finder... hell, One Tamriel stands as a monument to increased accessibility.
For ESO to thrive, it does need to be as accessible as reasonably possible. At that point, picking a random collectible and screaming, "THIS IS THE HILL I WILL DIE ON!" is a little peculiar.
Dumbing a game down is when the intricacies of the game are stripped out in the name of making the game more accessible. For example, the removal of a player inventory in Bioshock was considered "dumbing it down" from System Shock 2's system.
There is no real example of ESO being dumbed down. You might be able to point to the overhaul of the Provisioning system, or the introduction of One Tamriel as examples of this, but those didn't really dumb down the experience, they simply took pain points and dealt with them.
Which is the other term you chucked out as a pejorative: Streamlining. Streamlining is where you look at issues with a game, things that interfere with the flow of the experience, and you identify and implement ways to improve it. You deal with issues that disrupt the experience.
In point of fact, "streamlining," is improving a game. Now, I know, a lot of developers do say, "we streamlined this," as code for taking out choices or options. That can happen. If ESO chose to do away with skill points, attribute points, and skill lines entirely, then locking you to specific skills on your bar based on your equipped gear, that would streamline builds, but it would also dumb down the experience.
As mentioned above, ESO has undergone some significant streamlining. The huge example is One Tamriel. Before that, if you were in different alliances and wanted to do PvE content together, you needed to either group into the same dungeon, or make sure your characters were roughly the same level, roughly in range for the content you wanted to do, and were both the same Alliance. Now, if my friend picks up the game, I can jump over there, regardless of character, and give them a hand. That's streamlining.
Collecting Skyshards is a pain point. There's no engaging gameplay decision involved in locating or using them. Certainly not after you've found them the first time. It's simply busywork. So, within that perspective, changing that system radically would be a QoL improvement.
Also, I realize you may have missed this, but, a "proclivity" is an innate impulse. You're probably familiar with it from people referring to someone's "sexual proclivities," which is a clever(ish) way to say that someone's sexual drive is unnatural and perverse. All of this is, not exactly, relevant to a discussion on ESO, (or, at least, I dearly hope it's not applicable.)
I think pvp is boring. I have caltrops on one of my characters. I want caltrops on all of my characters, though. The alliance war skill lines need to be account wide so I can have caltrops on every new character without ever having to pvp ever again.
This needs to happen because I dont like pvp and if Zos doesn't do it they will lose money because I said so.
I don't want to level legerdemain anymore either. Maybe we should add that to the list, because I think it's boring...
The PVP abilities are a way to make all players try PVP. Its a way to promote their PVP content. You are actually doing something engaging to get those abilities. You try PVP for 2-3 hours, get the abilities you want while also making AP which can be converted to gold. Its easier to get the PVP abilities, there are more incentives to get them such as gold and AP events every year and the abilities are not as mandatory as other entire skill lines so your point about losing money because its a turn off for players goes out the window. This is not even remotely close to mages guild grind.
The fact that you are even comparing trying out PVP for 2 hours to get a couple of abilities that are not even mandatory for everything while also making gold to aimlessly running around reading books actively trying to avoid any engaging game mechanic for 6-7 hours shows how completely out of touch with reality you are. And thats for mages guild alone. Then you can add other stuff to the mix and end up with a 20+ hour braindead grind that promotes nothing but actually avoiding playing the game. Thats how dumb it is.
But if giving you vigor on all ur characters meant the end of torture of the stupid grind then by all means you can have it.
What??? It's more like 1000 hours!!!
That's right: 1000 HOURS just to get 2 skills from pvp! I hate pvp! I want those skills and I'm entitled to have those skills NOW because I did it on another character!1 -
Edziu✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »I never said there was only my way to play, or that there is only 1 way to play. I said that focusing your time specifically on collecting skyshards is incredibly boring and you deserve to bored if you're doing that.
Well, that's a mistake. As a game designer you should never seek to bore your player. You may attempt to restrict what a player does by making a process more tedious, but a bored player will look for other ways to entertain themselves. At that point, the best you can hope is that they'll only be looking at websites while waiting for load screens. At worst, they will simply fire up a different game and never return. Actively punishing a player with tedious activities is behavior that should be considered very carefully.
Also worth remembering, the Skyshards grind is supposed to be even more punishing than it is in practice. We're not supposed to have maps on hand that point us to the right locations, or addons that plant the shards on our map. Now, those are acceptable, but we are supposed to wander around aimlessly, interpreting cryptic riddles, looking for the things. Some of the boredom has already been alleviated. It was supposed to be even more punishing in its original iteration.
As with a number of mechanics in the game, it reflects another era of the game's design. One that doesn't fit as well with the game that exists today.Whatever silly excuses you use to justify that behavior are on you. It especially does not mean that the game needs to be streamlined, dumbed down, made more accessible, or otherwise changed to cater to your proclivities.
Wow, you broke out the dictionary for this. It would have been nice if you'd picked some appropriate arguments.
So, let's take these in no particular order:
If the game is not accessible, that's a problem. Full stop. If you're making a game, your primary source of income is from selling that game to players. Making a game obtuse or inaccessible is an option, but it's a risky one. In the case of a game that also serves as a recurring revenue stream, an inaccessible game is a poorly design choice.
ZOS has expressed interest in making the game more accessible over the years. The guild trader system, the group finder... hell, One Tamriel stands as a monument to increased accessibility.
For ESO to thrive, it does need to be as accessible as reasonably possible. At that point, picking a random collectible and screaming, "THIS IS THE HILL I WILL DIE ON!" is a little peculiar.
Dumbing a game down is when the intricacies of the game are stripped out in the name of making the game more accessible. For example, the removal of a player inventory in Bioshock was considered "dumbing it down" from System Shock 2's system.
There is no real example of ESO being dumbed down. You might be able to point to the overhaul of the Provisioning system, or the introduction of One Tamriel as examples of this, but those didn't really dumb down the experience, they simply took pain points and dealt with them.
Which is the other term you chucked out as a pejorative: Streamlining. Streamlining is where you look at issues with a game, things that interfere with the flow of the experience, and you identify and implement ways to improve it. You deal with issues that disrupt the experience.
In point of fact, "streamlining," is improving a game. Now, I know, a lot of developers do say, "we streamlined this," as code for taking out choices or options. That can happen. If ESO chose to do away with skill points, attribute points, and skill lines entirely, then locking you to specific skills on your bar based on your equipped gear, that would streamline builds, but it would also dumb down the experience.
As mentioned above, ESO has undergone some significant streamlining. The huge example is One Tamriel. Before that, if you were in different alliances and wanted to do PvE content together, you needed to either group into the same dungeon, or make sure your characters were roughly the same level, roughly in range for the content you wanted to do, and were both the same Alliance. Now, if my friend picks up the game, I can jump over there, regardless of character, and give them a hand. That's streamlining.
Collecting Skyshards is a pain point. There's no engaging gameplay decision involved in locating or using them. Certainly not after you've found them the first time. It's simply busywork. So, within that perspective, changing that system radically would be a QoL improvement.
Also, I realize you may have missed this, but, a "proclivity" is an innate impulse. You're probably familiar with it from people referring to someone's "sexual proclivities," which is a clever(ish) way to say that someone's sexual drive is unnatural and perverse. All of this is, not exactly, relevant to a discussion on ESO, (or, at least, I dearly hope it's not applicable.)
I think pvp is boring. I have caltrops on one of my characters. I want caltrops on all of my characters, though. The alliance war skill lines need to be account wide so I can have caltrops on every new character without ever having to pvp ever again.
This needs to happen because I dont like pvp and if Zos doesn't do it they will lose money because I said so.
I don't want to level legerdemain anymore either. Maybe we should add that to the list, because I think it's boring...
The PVP abilities are a way to make all players try PVP. Its a way to promote their PVP content. You are actually doing something engaging to get those abilities. You try PVP for 2-3 hours, get the abilities you want while also making AP which can be converted to gold. Its easier to get the PVP abilities, there are more incentives to get them such as gold and AP events every year and the abilities are not as mandatory as other entire skill lines so your point about losing money because its a turn off for players goes out the window. This is not even remotely close to mages guild grind.
The fact that you are even comparing trying out PVP for 2 hours to get a couple of abilities that are not even mandatory for everything while also making gold to aimlessly running around reading books actively trying to avoid any engaging game mechanic for 6-7 hours shows how completely out of touch with reality you are. And thats for mages guild alone. Then you can add other stuff to the mix and end up with a 20+ hour braindead grind that promotes nothing but actually avoiding playing the game. Thats how dumb it is.
But if giving you vigor on all ur characters meant the end of torture of the stupid grind then by all means you can have it.
What??? It's more like 1000 hours!!!
That's right: 1000 HOURS just to get 2 skills from pvp! I hate pvp! I want those skills and I'm entitled to have those skills NOW because I did it on another character!
I really miss good times where you needed 24 AR to unlock vigor and gaining AP from kills was 2x lower so what is going with it there was realy small defenese ticks and attack ticks also on resources, keeps etc and if was noone or almost noone to defend keep then was almost no ap to gain for taking this empty keep, that was jsut taking keep for you alliance instead of wanting to get as mach AP as you can, that was it! in these time your realy fighted for your alliance instead of damn stupid AP to sell them for gold!
no on pvp there is no interest to fight for your alliance that much unfortunately but just to get these damn AP...but this still have more sense than running like headless chicken on map from point to point gaining literally nothing into your playing experience while you still on pvp can experience many differnt sort of fights to learn, experience something, learn how to use your class, fight with your class0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kidgangster101 wrote: »You do understand not everyone does trials right? Some people's end game is cyrodil and battlegrounds only. You do know a pvp player that only does pvp hates being in pve content as much as a person that only like pve hates doing pvp right? Again there is so many ways to play this game and collecting skyshards definitely isn't playing the game because for some people it is a deterrent and makes them rather do something else.
The real pain starts if you enjoy doing more than just one thing at endgame. Those players who only quest are looking around saying, "what's wrong with you, the water's fine?"
If your only thing is running dungeons, that's also reasonable-ish. You might need to spend a little time bouncing around and grabbing shards, but that's still 98 skill points just from leveling and hitting your dungeons.
PvP hurts a bit. Open world less so, because there are a fair number of skyshards in Cyrodiil, but Battlegrounds? If you really enjoy those, you're going to hit level cap with less than 90 skill points, which is pretty thin for a PvP build.
However, if you do both dungeons and PvP, your active ability loadouts will be different, and you'll need to prioritize different passives. This means, without grinding, you're going to be short on skill points. Or you'll need to respec your characters depending on what you're doing right now.
I mean, if we conform to the idea that you're only allowed to pick one thing, and then do that one thing, and never step out of your lane... then I guess it makes sense. Except, we have skill lines that are designed to get you to step outside your comfort zone and explore new content for buffs and bonuses. In fact, the entire structure of the skill lines does force us to step out of one lane and, at least, sample some of the other options in the game, to see if we like them.
At that point, skyshards are less like having to "sample" exploration, and more like being asked to go out in the wilderness for a week and a half foraging for survival.
I did that. I know what I like now. And, unlike some participants in this conversation, it's not only one thing. At that point, yeah, lack of skill points to actually do those things becomes a real problem.2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »Mages guild books is how you level the mages guild skill line. If you're going to make that account wide and make every character start off with the same amount of books/level, then do the same for fighters guild/daedra and undead killed. In fact, do the same for dark brotherhood and thieves guild because who wants to to grind through contracts and heists and sacraments to level those? And also, why not max out the psijic skill line too so we don't have to hunt down rifts again and again and again? In fact, once you've done everything on one character just make EVERYTHING available on all future characters. Titles. Achievements. Remove pvp alliances because why not? Max those out once we've maxed all the pvp skill lines out for one character. Remove any and all challenge or grind from the game because that's what mmo's are all about. This is a game. We shouldn't have to WORK to become the best there ever was at any given thing on any given class or build.</sarcasm>
Not our fault skyhards/lorebooks/psijic are anti-gamplay braindead mechanics....that dont involve any gameplay.
Once you finally figure that out....maybe youll have somethign wortwhile to say, shyshards should have ALWAYS been account wide and mage guild/psijic tied to questlines just like "world" skill line with main quest.
Achievements too should have ALWAYS been account wide.
Skyshards and lorebooks are only anti-gameplay braindead mechanics to those who choose to develop characters through anti-gameplay braindead mechanics. If they're picked up as you play through a zone in the way it was intended to be played then they fall into place as an integral part of that gameplay.
Wut? Do explain to us in great detail how going to spot x and pressing "Interact" button is not anti-gameplay and braindead. It is not integral to anything it is as braindead as it gets.
And ESOs sales pitch was "play how you WANT", not "play how random Tandor wants to play"
That's rich in a thread where a handful of players want to change the established structure of the game to how they want to play it !
"Play the way you like" is one of the most misinterpreted terms about the game. If you look on the back of the box you'll see that originally it meant "Adventure alone or together with friends. The choice is yours to make." By One Tamriel this had changed to "Battle, craft, fish, steal or explore. The choice is yours to make in a persistent Elder Scrolls World."
Making a dumb argument and then ignoring everything people say to you in response to that argument just so you can cherry pick one single sentence, take it out of context and make another equally dumb argument. Good one. Keep up the work.
P.S. Nice try on the "handful". I mean everybody knows that this has been a subject brought up constantly through the years because many if not the majority of people dont like the grind which was one of the reason for mages guilds quests to progress the skill line in the first place but yeah. Was a good attempt non the less.
Considering the number of players who routinely ask for this as a proportion of the number playing the game, it's definitely only a handful, as it is in simple numerical terms in this thread alone. A few players regurgitating the same tired arguments for a dozen pages doesn't indicate widespread support or add anything new to those arguments.
Players routinely asking for this in the forums doesnt equate to the number of people not liking it and wanting it changed. Thats common sense but i guess not so common for you. Nice of you to continue ignoring the point people made. But then again what would you say.
I understand that maybe your standards for what is engaging and fun may be low and you may only like RPing exploring fishing and stuff. But some people actually prefer something more engaging and yeah, a braindead grind that actively promotes players to avoid actually playing the game and instead run around for hours is indeed a turn off and horribly designed.2 -
CassandraGemini✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »I never said there was only my way to play, or that there is only 1 way to play. I said that focusing your time specifically on collecting skyshards is incredibly boring and you deserve to bored if you're doing that.
Well, that's a mistake. As a game designer you should never seek to bore your player. You may attempt to restrict what a player does by making a process more tedious, but a bored player will look for other ways to entertain themselves. At that point, the best you can hope is that they'll only be looking at websites while waiting for load screens. At worst, they will simply fire up a different game and never return. Actively punishing a player with tedious activities is behavior that should be considered very carefully.
Also worth remembering, the Skyshards grind is supposed to be even more punishing than it is in practice. We're not supposed to have maps on hand that point us to the right locations, or addons that plant the shards on our map. Now, those are acceptable, but we are supposed to wander around aimlessly, interpreting cryptic riddles, looking for the things. Some of the boredom has already been alleviated. It was supposed to be even more punishing in its original iteration.
As with a number of mechanics in the game, it reflects another era of the game's design. One that doesn't fit as well with the game that exists today.Whatever silly excuses you use to justify that behavior are on you. It especially does not mean that the game needs to be streamlined, dumbed down, made more accessible, or otherwise changed to cater to your proclivities.
Wow, you broke out the dictionary for this. It would have been nice if you'd picked some appropriate arguments.
So, let's take these in no particular order:
If the game is not accessible, that's a problem. Full stop. If you're making a game, your primary source of income is from selling that game to players. Making a game obtuse or inaccessible is an option, but it's a risky one. In the case of a game that also serves as a recurring revenue stream, an inaccessible game is a poorly design choice.
ZOS has expressed interest in making the game more accessible over the years. The guild trader system, the group finder... hell, One Tamriel stands as a monument to increased accessibility.
For ESO to thrive, it does need to be as accessible as reasonably possible. At that point, picking a random collectible and screaming, "THIS IS THE HILL I WILL DIE ON!" is a little peculiar.
Dumbing a game down is when the intricacies of the game are stripped out in the name of making the game more accessible. For example, the removal of a player inventory in Bioshock was considered "dumbing it down" from System Shock 2's system.
There is no real example of ESO being dumbed down. You might be able to point to the overhaul of the Provisioning system, or the introduction of One Tamriel as examples of this, but those didn't really dumb down the experience, they simply took pain points and dealt with them.
Which is the other term you chucked out as a pejorative: Streamlining. Streamlining is where you look at issues with a game, things that interfere with the flow of the experience, and you identify and implement ways to improve it. You deal with issues that disrupt the experience.
In point of fact, "streamlining," is improving a game. Now, I know, a lot of developers do say, "we streamlined this," as code for taking out choices or options. That can happen. If ESO chose to do away with skill points, attribute points, and skill lines entirely, then locking you to specific skills on your bar based on your equipped gear, that would streamline builds, but it would also dumb down the experience.
As mentioned above, ESO has undergone some significant streamlining. The huge example is One Tamriel. Before that, if you were in different alliances and wanted to do PvE content together, you needed to either group into the same dungeon, or make sure your characters were roughly the same level, roughly in range for the content you wanted to do, and were both the same Alliance. Now, if my friend picks up the game, I can jump over there, regardless of character, and give them a hand. That's streamlining.
Collecting Skyshards is a pain point. There's no engaging gameplay decision involved in locating or using them. Certainly not after you've found them the first time. It's simply busywork. So, within that perspective, changing that system radically would be a QoL improvement.
Also, I realize you may have missed this, but, a "proclivity" is an innate impulse. You're probably familiar with it from people referring to someone's "sexual proclivities," which is a clever(ish) way to say that someone's sexual drive is unnatural and perverse. All of this is, not exactly, relevant to a discussion on ESO, (or, at least, I dearly hope it's not applicable.)
I think pvp is boring. I have caltrops on one of my characters. I want caltrops on all of my characters, though. The alliance war skill lines need to be account wide so I can have caltrops on every new character without ever having to pvp ever again.
This needs to happen because I dont like pvp and if Zos doesn't do it they will lose money because I said so.
I don't want to level legerdemain anymore either. Maybe we should add that to the list, because I think it's boring...
The PVP abilities are a way to make all players try PVP. Its a way to promote their PVP content. You are actually doing something engaging to get those abilities. You try PVP for 2-3 hours, get the abilities you want while also making AP which can be converted to gold. Its easier to get the PVP abilities, there are more incentives to get them such as gold and AP events every year and the abilities are not as mandatory as other entire skill lines so your point about losing money because its a turn off for players goes out the window. This is not even remotely close to mages guild grind.
The fact that you are even comparing trying out PVP for 2 hours to get a couple of abilities that are not even mandatory for everything while also making gold to aimlessly running around reading books actively trying to avoid any engaging game mechanic for 6-7 hours shows how completely out of touch with reality you are. And thats for mages guild alone. Then you can add other stuff to the mix and end up with a 20+ hour braindead grind that promotes nothing but actually avoiding playing the game. Thats how dumb it is.
But if giving you vigor on all ur characters meant the end of torture of the stupid grind then by all means you can have it.
What??? It's more like 1000 hours!!!
That's right: 1000 HOURS just to get 2 skills from pvp! I hate pvp! I want those skills and I'm entitled to have those skills NOW because I did it on another character!
Wow... you know, actually I didn't want to respond to you anymore because it hurts my head and my blood pressure, but this is getting to be beyond ridiculous. All you're doing by now is either telling people that it's their own fault if they're bored/frustrated by a game mechanic and that therefore they somehow deserve to be bored/frustrated by it, just because they don't want to run the same zones for the 10th time and by doing that "naturally" come across the skyshards and lorebooks (which is the single dumbest excuse for bad game design I have ever heard by the way), or to come up with comparisons that are completely and utterly irrelevant. Like... legerdemain? Seriously? Because legerdemain is such an integral part of all kinds of builds out there?
Honestly, if you're so bored that you have nothing better to do than spamming this thread with the same two non-arguments over and over, why don't you just go and do something else instead? Like creating a new character and collecting some skyshards and lorebooks just for the fun of it, since you seem to like that so much.This poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!4 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »Well, you can just go and craft the endgame consumables on your designated crafter, then put them in the bank and pull them out with whatever other of your characters needs them. Same with crafted gear sets. So unless you're after the master writs there's no reason whatsoever to spend skill points in the crafting skill lines of alts.
Not arguing with you on the rest of your post, though. Just thought I'd point that out.
It's absolutely true, and until about eight months ago, that's how I rolled. @Inklings finally got me to actually max out crafting on a couple alts and realize just how convenient it is to be able to simply craft the pots I need (or the ones that other team members need) on the spot, in a trial's anti-chamber.
Which gets down to this really just being a QoL thing. It doesn't make characters stronger, it just makes life easier for the player, if you can craft your consumables on the character you're currently logged in on, without having to log out, find your crafter, log in on them, do your buisness, log back out, and back in on your character.
Throne on the other hand? Oh no, that gets crafted by my provisioner and put in the bank, because holy snot is that recipe expensive. (Though, again, it would be more convenient to be able to do it on any character.)
It's the log out/log in that just kills the flow really.
But just investing in a Banker solves that whole issue. Your crafter makes a quantity of whatever you use and stores it in the Bank. ANY character you are currently running now has access to it.
Having all those skill points so that All your characters can have All those crafting skills DOES make each character stronger. They all now have the benefit of your example without losing ANY combat skills whatsoever. Otherwise, they have to choose what points to spend where and when.
In point of fact, I have the banker, and it does not solve any of this. It cuts a stage out, where you need to go to the bank after crafting, and before you can pick it up. However, it requires you constantly monitor your consumable stockpiles, and know in advance, not only that you'll be using a character, but also knowing what you'll be using them for.
Now, you could just craft everything you ever use, store it in the bank, and call it a day, except that also runs into problems because then you're clogging up your bank with a bunch of potions for your alts (food is less of an issue here, but it is still an issue.)
It also precludes the entire point about being able to make this stuff for others. So, we're back to this being a basic quality of life issue.
And, before you go and say, "well, just plan ahead," the problem with this is in trials groups. If someone else forgot what they needed, then everyone needs to sit around, twiddling their thumbs, waiting for them to get their **** in gear. Now, I've got no qualms about throwing alchemy mats at another player to get the trial moving, but it does require that I can actually make what they need.
Similarly, Tythis cannot help you when a guildie is asking if anyone can make them training gear or stuff for research. At that point it having multiple crafters is strictly about not having to log between characters to do your crafting.
It's not about making the character more powerful, but it is about making crafting more fluid.
Like I said, I have no particular issue with ranking up crafting on each character, but given how these systems get used, the per character system doesn't really reflect how they function, at least not in a live context.
Why does everything always come down to 'logging in and logging out and Zos doesn't do it fast enough' ? Your whole arguement is based solely on Inconvenience. IMHO, making a big deal out of a small issue. I have one master crafter and a banker. If a guild mate needs a training set I tell them "hang on a minute, I need to change characters". If i start a new character (which I do more often than most probably) I go make level 4 white sets to give the new character an edge starting off, throw them in the bank, and pull up the new character. Its Not all that difficult.
If you are going to trials and you have noticed that invariably someone shows up without food or potions that they Need, why would it be a horrendous burden to have some extra in your inventory so you don't Have to craft them at the Trial?
Yes. You have to log in and log out a couple of times. I don't see where that inconvenience justifies slapping 100 skill points on a character, even if you could somehow make those point Only useable on crafting. Which is something you do NOT explain "How" Zos would manage. Crafting points do not Solely go into crafting levels. They Can be used on hirelings, speed of research, etc. How are you going to regulate where those points are spent? Or are you going to allow the Alt to spend these free points in an area the main Crafter didn't spend points?
1 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭KiraTsukasa wrote: »Oh. We're trying for this again? For people that "don't like the grind", you sure do bring up this topic over and over and over and over and over and... well, you get the point. And all this time that you've spent arguing for something that hasn't happened since the game launched and won't likely ever happen, you could have been collecting the skyshards and have been done by now. And honestly, it doesn't take all that long, especially if you've got them all multiple times as you claim, so you know where they all are.
Made me chuckle. (Ha! When was the last time you heard someone use That word?) Personally, I use the map addon, makes things Somewhat simple. (The Skyshard is right in front of you. No, there is a ph*****in wall of rock in front of me 8( )
I do understand why people that do not use PCs and thus addons would have issues. I honestly would find this game to be very difficult without the addons. Even with google. I would end up with stacks of paper and hand drawn maps to document everything I found. Which would take a Loooooong time.
But it might be fun.
8D
0 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CassandraGemini wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »I never said there was only my way to play, or that there is only 1 way to play. I said that focusing your time specifically on collecting skyshards is incredibly boring and you deserve to bored if you're doing that.
Well, that's a mistake. As a game designer you should never seek to bore your player. You may attempt to restrict what a player does by making a process more tedious, but a bored player will look for other ways to entertain themselves. At that point, the best you can hope is that they'll only be looking at websites while waiting for load screens. At worst, they will simply fire up a different game and never return. Actively punishing a player with tedious activities is behavior that should be considered very carefully.
Also worth remembering, the Skyshards grind is supposed to be even more punishing than it is in practice. We're not supposed to have maps on hand that point us to the right locations, or addons that plant the shards on our map. Now, those are acceptable, but we are supposed to wander around aimlessly, interpreting cryptic riddles, looking for the things. Some of the boredom has already been alleviated. It was supposed to be even more punishing in its original iteration.
As with a number of mechanics in the game, it reflects another era of the game's design. One that doesn't fit as well with the game that exists today.Whatever silly excuses you use to justify that behavior are on you. It especially does not mean that the game needs to be streamlined, dumbed down, made more accessible, or otherwise changed to cater to your proclivities.
Wow, you broke out the dictionary for this. It would have been nice if you'd picked some appropriate arguments.
So, let's take these in no particular order:
If the game is not accessible, that's a problem. Full stop. If you're making a game, your primary source of income is from selling that game to players. Making a game obtuse or inaccessible is an option, but it's a risky one. In the case of a game that also serves as a recurring revenue stream, an inaccessible game is a poorly design choice.
ZOS has expressed interest in making the game more accessible over the years. The guild trader system, the group finder... hell, One Tamriel stands as a monument to increased accessibility.
For ESO to thrive, it does need to be as accessible as reasonably possible. At that point, picking a random collectible and screaming, "THIS IS THE HILL I WILL DIE ON!" is a little peculiar.
Dumbing a game down is when the intricacies of the game are stripped out in the name of making the game more accessible. For example, the removal of a player inventory in Bioshock was considered "dumbing it down" from System Shock 2's system.
There is no real example of ESO being dumbed down. You might be able to point to the overhaul of the Provisioning system, or the introduction of One Tamriel as examples of this, but those didn't really dumb down the experience, they simply took pain points and dealt with them.
Which is the other term you chucked out as a pejorative: Streamlining. Streamlining is where you look at issues with a game, things that interfere with the flow of the experience, and you identify and implement ways to improve it. You deal with issues that disrupt the experience.
In point of fact, "streamlining," is improving a game. Now, I know, a lot of developers do say, "we streamlined this," as code for taking out choices or options. That can happen. If ESO chose to do away with skill points, attribute points, and skill lines entirely, then locking you to specific skills on your bar based on your equipped gear, that would streamline builds, but it would also dumb down the experience.
As mentioned above, ESO has undergone some significant streamlining. The huge example is One Tamriel. Before that, if you were in different alliances and wanted to do PvE content together, you needed to either group into the same dungeon, or make sure your characters were roughly the same level, roughly in range for the content you wanted to do, and were both the same Alliance. Now, if my friend picks up the game, I can jump over there, regardless of character, and give them a hand. That's streamlining.
Collecting Skyshards is a pain point. There's no engaging gameplay decision involved in locating or using them. Certainly not after you've found them the first time. It's simply busywork. So, within that perspective, changing that system radically would be a QoL improvement.
Also, I realize you may have missed this, but, a "proclivity" is an innate impulse. You're probably familiar with it from people referring to someone's "sexual proclivities," which is a clever(ish) way to say that someone's sexual drive is unnatural and perverse. All of this is, not exactly, relevant to a discussion on ESO, (or, at least, I dearly hope it's not applicable.)
I think pvp is boring. I have caltrops on one of my characters. I want caltrops on all of my characters, though. The alliance war skill lines need to be account wide so I can have caltrops on every new character without ever having to pvp ever again.
This needs to happen because I dont like pvp and if Zos doesn't do it they will lose money because I said so.
I don't want to level legerdemain anymore either. Maybe we should add that to the list, because I think it's boring...
The PVP abilities are a way to make all players try PVP. Its a way to promote their PVP content. You are actually doing something engaging to get those abilities. You try PVP for 2-3 hours, get the abilities you want while also making AP which can be converted to gold. Its easier to get the PVP abilities, there are more incentives to get them such as gold and AP events every year and the abilities are not as mandatory as other entire skill lines so your point about losing money because its a turn off for players goes out the window. This is not even remotely close to mages guild grind.
The fact that you are even comparing trying out PVP for 2 hours to get a couple of abilities that are not even mandatory for everything while also making gold to aimlessly running around reading books actively trying to avoid any engaging game mechanic for 6-7 hours shows how completely out of touch with reality you are. And thats for mages guild alone. Then you can add other stuff to the mix and end up with a 20+ hour braindead grind that promotes nothing but actually avoiding playing the game. Thats how dumb it is.
But if giving you vigor on all ur characters meant the end of torture of the stupid grind then by all means you can have it.
What??? It's more like 1000 hours!!!
That's right: 1000 HOURS just to get 2 skills from pvp! I hate pvp! I want those skills and I'm entitled to have those skills NOW because I did it on another character!
Wow... you know, actually I didn't want to respond to you anymore because it hurts my head and my blood pressure, but this is getting to be beyond ridiculous. All you're doing by now is either telling people that it's their own fault if they're bored/frustrated by a game mechanic and that therefore they somehow deserve to be bored/frustrated by it, just because they don't want to run the same zones for the 10th time and by doing that "naturally" come across the skyshards and lorebooks (which is the single dumbest excuse for bad game design I have ever heard by the way), or to come up with comparisons that are completely and utterly irrelevant. Like... legerdemain? Seriously? Because legerdemain is such an integral part of all kinds of builds out there?
Honestly, if you're so bored that you have nothing better to do than spamming this thread with the same two non-arguments over and over, why don't you just go and do something else instead? Like creating a new character and collecting some skyshards and lorebooks just for the fun of it, since you seem to like that so much.
Whaaat??? Why the hostility? I am in total agreement with all 3 of you. If we don't want to do something in a video game because we find it boring, then we should get the rewards for free as long as we have done it at least once.
But, I think we have more than just that in common, dont we? I mean, I keep responding on this thread, you keep responding on this thread. I have better things I could be doing, you have better things you could be doing...
I mean, i could be doing the same stupid things i keep telling ya'll to quit doing so you don't have to moan about it on the forums, and you could be off agreeing with your echo chamber somewhere else.1 -
Sheezabeast✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!2 -
Kidgangster101✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kidgangster101 wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »I never said there was only my way to play, or that there is only 1 way to play. I said that focusing your time specifically on collecting skyshards is incredibly boring and you deserve to bored if you're doing that.
Well, that's a mistake. As a game designer you should never seek to bore your player. You may attempt to restrict what a player does by making a process more tedious, but a bored player will look for other ways to entertain themselves. At that point, the best you can hope is that they'll only be looking at websites while waiting for load screens. At worst, they will simply fire up a different game and never return. Actively punishing a player with tedious activities is behavior that should be considered very carefully.
Also worth remembering, the Skyshards grind is supposed to be even more punishing than it is in practice. We're not supposed to have maps on hand that point us to the right locations, or addons that plant the shards on our map. Now, those are acceptable, but we are supposed to wander around aimlessly, interpreting cryptic riddles, looking for the things. Some of the boredom has already been alleviated. It was supposed to be even more punishing in its original iteration.
As with a number of mechanics in the game, it reflects another era of the game's design. One that doesn't fit as well with the game that exists today.Whatever silly excuses you use to justify that behavior are on you. It especially does not mean that the game needs to be streamlined, dumbed down, made more accessible, or otherwise changed to cater to your proclivities.
Wow, you broke out the dictionary for this. It would have been nice if you'd picked some appropriate arguments.
So, let's take these in no particular order:
If the game is not accessible, that's a problem. Full stop. If you're making a game, your primary source of income is from selling that game to players. Making a game obtuse or inaccessible is an option, but it's a risky one. In the case of a game that also serves as a recurring revenue stream, an inaccessible game is a poorly design choice.
ZOS has expressed interest in making the game more accessible over the years. The guild trader system, the group finder... hell, One Tamriel stands as a monument to increased accessibility.
For ESO to thrive, it does need to be as accessible as reasonably possible. At that point, picking a random collectible and screaming, "THIS IS THE HILL I WILL DIE ON!" is a little peculiar.
Dumbing a game down is when the intricacies of the game are stripped out in the name of making the game more accessible. For example, the removal of a player inventory in Bioshock was considered "dumbing it down" from System Shock 2's system.
There is no real example of ESO being dumbed down. You might be able to point to the overhaul of the Provisioning system, or the introduction of One Tamriel as examples of this, but those didn't really dumb down the experience, they simply took pain points and dealt with them.
Which is the other term you chucked out as a pejorative: Streamlining. Streamlining is where you look at issues with a game, things that interfere with the flow of the experience, and you identify and implement ways to improve it. You deal with issues that disrupt the experience.
In point of fact, "streamlining," is improving a game. Now, I know, a lot of developers do say, "we streamlined this," as code for taking out choices or options. That can happen. If ESO chose to do away with skill points, attribute points, and skill lines entirely, then locking you to specific skills on your bar based on your equipped gear, that would streamline builds, but it would also dumb down the experience.
As mentioned above, ESO has undergone some significant streamlining. The huge example is One Tamriel. Before that, if you were in different alliances and wanted to do PvE content together, you needed to either group into the same dungeon, or make sure your characters were roughly the same level, roughly in range for the content you wanted to do, and were both the same Alliance. Now, if my friend picks up the game, I can jump over there, regardless of character, and give them a hand. That's streamlining.
Collecting Skyshards is a pain point. There's no engaging gameplay decision involved in locating or using them. Certainly not after you've found them the first time. It's simply busywork. So, within that perspective, changing that system radically would be a QoL improvement.
Also, I realize you may have missed this, but, a "proclivity" is an innate impulse. You're probably familiar with it from people referring to someone's "sexual proclivities," which is a clever(ish) way to say that someone's sexual drive is unnatural and perverse. All of this is, not exactly, relevant to a discussion on ESO, (or, at least, I dearly hope it's not applicable.)
I think pvp is boring. I have caltrops on one of my characters. I want caltrops on all of my characters, though. The alliance war skill lines need to be account wide so I can have caltrops on every new character without ever having to pvp ever again.
This needs to happen because I dont like pvp and if Zos doesn't do it they will lose money because I said so.
I don't want to level legerdemain anymore either. Maybe we should add that to the list, because I think it's boring...
Lololol be glad they nerfed the skill lines in pvp for you because it only takes 2-3 hours to get now compared to what it use to be maybe they should bring it back up to make people have to pvp more!
There is a huge difference between the 2-3 hours it takes in battlegrounds than the 25+ hours it takes to grind skyshards/mages guild/ psijic. Just saying they already nerfed pvp skill line into the ground because pve players cried non stop about the grind.
I shouldn't have to pvp at all. It should just be account wide because I don't want to do the content associated with that reward. It's stupid and Zos isn't pandering to me enough. That pretty much means the game is going to die.
I also don't want to run the same dungeons I've already run a billion times on my other characters. It's so boring! I've memorized the dungeons already!
Undaunted needs to be account wide because I should not have to level it on every character I make.
Lolol all those things you want for free are engaging activities that can change Everytime you run them. It takes skill and keeps you on your feet with mechanics and can be easy or hard depending on your group you are with at that time.
If you run a vet dungeon through daily random you might have a templar healer for one run and some good players with you where you beat it no problem, or another time you might have a dk healer and a DPS that does nothing but spam snipe. Now with this group you struggle meaning you have to try to pin point what the problem is and communicate with your group to fix the problem.
Pvp no fight is really ever the same so you.always have to be quick on your feet and adapt depending on the situation at hand.
So now tell me what do you alter or how is gameplay any different when you run up to point A touch point A then travel to point B and touch ponlint B then go to point C and touch point C? Nothing ever changes no matter what type of too you are running making it boring and content that is not needed for someone that has already explored the map as that is what it is designed to do. After exploring 5 times I'm pretty sure you know the locations of things just saying.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sheezabeast wrote: »
Because it keeps twitching in entertaining ways.
I mean, there's also, still, a conversation going on.1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »I never said there was only my way to play, or that there is only 1 way to play. I said that focusing your time specifically on collecting skyshards is incredibly boring and you deserve to bored if you're doing that.
Well, that's a mistake. As a game designer you should never seek to bore your player. You may attempt to restrict what a player does by making a process more tedious, but a bored player will look for other ways to entertain themselves. At that point, the best you can hope is that they'll only be looking at websites while waiting for load screens. At worst, they will simply fire up a different game and never return. Actively punishing a player with tedious activities is behavior that should be considered very carefully.
Also worth remembering, the Skyshards grind is supposed to be even more punishing than it is in practice. We're not supposed to have maps on hand that point us to the right locations, or addons that plant the shards on our map. Now, those are acceptable, but we are supposed to wander around aimlessly, interpreting cryptic riddles, looking for the things. Some of the boredom has already been alleviated. It was supposed to be even more punishing in its original iteration.
As with a number of mechanics in the game, it reflects another era of the game's design. One that doesn't fit as well with the game that exists today.Whatever silly excuses you use to justify that behavior are on you. It especially does not mean that the game needs to be streamlined, dumbed down, made more accessible, or otherwise changed to cater to your proclivities.
Wow, you broke out the dictionary for this. It would have been nice if you'd picked some appropriate arguments.
So, let's take these in no particular order:
If the game is not accessible, that's a problem. Full stop. If you're making a game, your primary source of income is from selling that game to players. Making a game obtuse or inaccessible is an option, but it's a risky one. In the case of a game that also serves as a recurring revenue stream, an inaccessible game is a poorly design choice.
ZOS has expressed interest in making the game more accessible over the years. The guild trader system, the group finder... hell, One Tamriel stands as a monument to increased accessibility.
For ESO to thrive, it does need to be as accessible as reasonably possible. At that point, picking a random collectible and screaming, "THIS IS THE HILL I WILL DIE ON!" is a little peculiar.
Dumbing a game down is when the intricacies of the game are stripped out in the name of making the game more accessible. For example, the removal of a player inventory in Bioshock was considered "dumbing it down" from System Shock 2's system.
There is no real example of ESO being dumbed down. You might be able to point to the overhaul of the Provisioning system, or the introduction of One Tamriel as examples of this, but those didn't really dumb down the experience, they simply took pain points and dealt with them.
Which is the other term you chucked out as a pejorative: Streamlining. Streamlining is where you look at issues with a game, things that interfere with the flow of the experience, and you identify and implement ways to improve it. You deal with issues that disrupt the experience.
In point of fact, "streamlining," is improving a game. Now, I know, a lot of developers do say, "we streamlined this," as code for taking out choices or options. That can happen. If ESO chose to do away with skill points, attribute points, and skill lines entirely, then locking you to specific skills on your bar based on your equipped gear, that would streamline builds, but it would also dumb down the experience.
As mentioned above, ESO has undergone some significant streamlining. The huge example is One Tamriel. Before that, if you were in different alliances and wanted to do PvE content together, you needed to either group into the same dungeon, or make sure your characters were roughly the same level, roughly in range for the content you wanted to do, and were both the same Alliance. Now, if my friend picks up the game, I can jump over there, regardless of character, and give them a hand. That's streamlining.
Collecting Skyshards is a pain point. There's no engaging gameplay decision involved in locating or using them. Certainly not after you've found them the first time. It's simply busywork. So, within that perspective, changing that system radically would be a QoL improvement.
Also, I realize you may have missed this, but, a "proclivity" is an innate impulse. You're probably familiar with it from people referring to someone's "sexual proclivities," which is a clever(ish) way to say that someone's sexual drive is unnatural and perverse. All of this is, not exactly, relevant to a discussion on ESO, (or, at least, I dearly hope it's not applicable.)
I think pvp is boring. I have caltrops on one of my characters. I want caltrops on all of my characters, though. The alliance war skill lines need to be account wide so I can have caltrops on every new character without ever having to pvp ever again.
This needs to happen because I dont like pvp and if Zos doesn't do it they will lose money because I said so.
I don't want to level legerdemain anymore either. Maybe we should add that to the list, because I think it's boring...
The PVP abilities are a way to make all players try PVP. Its a way to promote their PVP content. You are actually doing something engaging to get those abilities. You try PVP for 2-3 hours, get the abilities you want while also making AP which can be converted to gold. Its easier to get the PVP abilities, there are more incentives to get them such as gold and AP events every year and the abilities are not as mandatory as other entire skill lines so your point about losing money because its a turn off for players goes out the window. This is not even remotely close to mages guild grind.
The fact that you are even comparing trying out PVP for 2 hours to get a couple of abilities that are not even mandatory for everything while also making gold to aimlessly running around reading books actively trying to avoid any engaging game mechanic for 6-7 hours shows how completely out of touch with reality you are. And thats for mages guild alone. Then you can add other stuff to the mix and end up with a 20+ hour braindead grind that promotes nothing but actually avoiding playing the game. Thats how dumb it is.
But if giving you vigor on all ur characters meant the end of torture of the stupid grind then by all means you can have it.
What??? It's more like 1000 hours!!!
That's right: 1000 HOURS just to get 2 skills from pvp! I hate pvp! I want those skills and I'm entitled to have those skills NOW because I did it on another character!
Its literally 2-3 hours by casually doing BGs.2 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »The argument against this is: "I don't want this or see any need for it so you are not allowed to have it even if you see it as an annoying grind. You are just an idiot because you don't see it my way."
I wonder how many who oppose this do not allocate any CP for a new character since that is an unfair boost for new alts.
There are many valid arguments against this and you could say the same for your perspective. There is a middle ground and that is to make it easier to locate skyshards/lorebooks for alts without removing the need to physically pick them up.
True, but that is not most of the replies against the idea. Most are "no, just no" or "this is a stupid idea and you just want everything handed to you".PC
PS4/PS51 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Zos should just stop being lazy and give console players a lorebook and skyshard map in the base game. But zos is out of touch with the game, community, and especially the console community.
And PC players shouldn't even comment negatively on this because they have the add ons, which make it 10000 times easier, so they could never understand. .
I will say that the new map functionality on the PS4 is much better than it used to be. Much easier to find the things I need in a zone, as long as they are listed.
I do wish it had quests now, but I can live with only the main story quests and hunting the others down for completionist purposes. (Though they would be a great addition.)
PC
PS4/PS51 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »Again, my example was to show how easy it is to actually pick up skyshards and books without grinding for them but you think that is selfish and petty.
ANY grind is only a grind because the player makes it one. Tell you what, eliminate skyshards as a mechanism for skill points. Make them the "points of interest." I'll bet those skill points are put behind some other mechanic that some players won't enjoy either. It's a never ending cycle.
Make a shared way point account wide after picking them up. Then alts can go straight for them.
I live with some grinds, like repeating the same quests on 10 characters (8 NA, 2 EU). That is expected. Running around for SkyShards is necessary if I want to level crafting on all my characters. Yes, this is my choice, but that doesn't make it any less annoying.
PC
PS4/PS50 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »Mages guild books is how you level the mages guild skill line. If you're going to make that account wide and make every character start off with the same amount of books/level, then do the same for fighters guild/daedra and undead killed. In fact, do the same for dark brotherhood and thieves guild because who wants to to grind through contracts and heists and sacraments to level those? And also, why not max out the psijic skill line too so we don't have to hunt down rifts again and again and again? In fact, once you've done everything on one character just make EVERYTHING available on all future characters. Titles. Achievements. Remove pvp alliances because why not? Max those out once we've maxed all the pvp skill lines out for one character. Remove any and all challenge or grind from the game because that's what mmo's are all about. This is a game. We shouldn't have to WORK to become the best there ever was at any given thing on any given class or build.</sarcasm>
Idiocy.
Grinding mobs is one thing. Running around looking for books on the ground is completely different. I get XP and participate in the game content in an interactive fashion with grinding mobs. You could sway me on the DB/TG stuff though as I am despising that and I am not sure I can handle pickpocketing all over the place much more, but I live with that. Running around with my PC on a proper web page just to find a book/shard is not engagement. It is tedium. Finding waypoints is also a bit of a pain, but those are usually not hidden away.
(Why can't one of my characters tell the other where the waypoints are?)PC
PS4/PS52 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »Or keep the system as is and add a glowing compass marker when you're near one and/or a waypoint if your "main" collected it already.
I would even be happy with this. Make it easier to find the books (especially) and even the SkyShards. Mark them on the dungeon maps also so finding them doesn't require having a browser window open.PC
PS4/PS50 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »I never said there was only my way to play, or that there is only 1 way to play. I said that focusing your time specifically on collecting skyshards is incredibly boring and you deserve to bored if you're doing that.
Well, that's a mistake. As a game designer you should never seek to bore your player. You may attempt to restrict what a player does by making a process more tedious, but a bored player will look for other ways to entertain themselves. At that point, the best you can hope is that they'll only be looking at websites while waiting for load screens. At worst, they will simply fire up a different game and never return. Actively punishing a player with tedious activities is behavior that should be considered very carefully.
Also worth remembering, the Skyshards grind is supposed to be even more punishing than it is in practice. We're not supposed to have maps on hand that point us to the right locations, or addons that plant the shards on our map. Now, those are acceptable, but we are supposed to wander around aimlessly, interpreting cryptic riddles, looking for the things. Some of the boredom has already been alleviated. It was supposed to be even more punishing in its original iteration.
As with a number of mechanics in the game, it reflects another era of the game's design. One that doesn't fit as well with the game that exists today.Whatever silly excuses you use to justify that behavior are on you. It especially does not mean that the game needs to be streamlined, dumbed down, made more accessible, or otherwise changed to cater to your proclivities.
Wow, you broke out the dictionary for this. It would have been nice if you'd picked some appropriate arguments.
So, let's take these in no particular order:
If the game is not accessible, that's a problem. Full stop. If you're making a game, your primary source of income is from selling that game to players. Making a game obtuse or inaccessible is an option, but it's a risky one. In the case of a game that also serves as a recurring revenue stream, an inaccessible game is a poorly design choice.
ZOS has expressed interest in making the game more accessible over the years. The guild trader system, the group finder... hell, One Tamriel stands as a monument to increased accessibility.
For ESO to thrive, it does need to be as accessible as reasonably possible. At that point, picking a random collectible and screaming, "THIS IS THE HILL I WILL DIE ON!" is a little peculiar.
Dumbing a game down is when the intricacies of the game are stripped out in the name of making the game more accessible. For example, the removal of a player inventory in Bioshock was considered "dumbing it down" from System Shock 2's system.
There is no real example of ESO being dumbed down. You might be able to point to the overhaul of the Provisioning system, or the introduction of One Tamriel as examples of this, but those didn't really dumb down the experience, they simply took pain points and dealt with them.
Which is the other term you chucked out as a pejorative: Streamlining. Streamlining is where you look at issues with a game, things that interfere with the flow of the experience, and you identify and implement ways to improve it. You deal with issues that disrupt the experience.
In point of fact, "streamlining," is improving a game. Now, I know, a lot of developers do say, "we streamlined this," as code for taking out choices or options. That can happen. If ESO chose to do away with skill points, attribute points, and skill lines entirely, then locking you to specific skills on your bar based on your equipped gear, that would streamline builds, but it would also dumb down the experience.
As mentioned above, ESO has undergone some significant streamlining. The huge example is One Tamriel. Before that, if you were in different alliances and wanted to do PvE content together, you needed to either group into the same dungeon, or make sure your characters were roughly the same level, roughly in range for the content you wanted to do, and were both the same Alliance. Now, if my friend picks up the game, I can jump over there, regardless of character, and give them a hand. That's streamlining.
Collecting Skyshards is a pain point. There's no engaging gameplay decision involved in locating or using them. Certainly not after you've found them the first time. It's simply busywork. So, within that perspective, changing that system radically would be a QoL improvement.
Also, I realize you may have missed this, but, a "proclivity" is an innate impulse. You're probably familiar with it from people referring to someone's "sexual proclivities," which is a clever(ish) way to say that someone's sexual drive is unnatural and perverse. All of this is, not exactly, relevant to a discussion on ESO, (or, at least, I dearly hope it's not applicable.)
I think pvp is boring. I have caltrops on one of my characters. I want caltrops on all of my characters, though. The alliance war skill lines need to be account wide so I can have caltrops on every new character without ever having to pvp ever again.
This needs to happen because I dont like pvp and if Zos doesn't do it they will lose money because I said so.
I don't want to level legerdemain anymore either. Maybe we should add that to the list, because I think it's boring...
The PVP abilities are a way to make all players try PVP. Its a way to promote their PVP content. You are actually doing something engaging to get those abilities. You try PVP for 2-3 hours, get the abilities you want while also making AP which can be converted to gold. Its easier to get the PVP abilities, there are more incentives to get them such as gold and AP events every year and the abilities are not as mandatory as other entire skill lines so your point about losing money because its a turn off for players goes out the window. This is not even remotely close to mages guild grind.
The fact that you are even comparing trying out PVP for 2 hours to get a couple of abilities that are not even mandatory for everything while also making gold to aimlessly running around reading books actively trying to avoid any engaging game mechanic for 6-7 hours shows how completely out of touch with reality you are. And thats for mages guild alone. Then you can add other stuff to the mix and end up with a 20+ hour braindead grind that promotes nothing but actually avoiding playing the game. Thats how dumb it is.
But if giving you vigor on all ur characters meant the end of torture of the stupid grind then by all means you can have it.
What??? It's more like 1000 hours!!!
That's right: 1000 HOURS just to get 2 skills from pvp! I hate pvp! I want those skills and I'm entitled to have those skills NOW because I did it on another character!
Its literally 2-3 hours by casually doing BGs.
I was going to give you flak for this and say, "no way it takes that long." But... thinking back, you're probably right. BGs do make it pretty painless now.0
This discussion has been closed.