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Why the addition of Rated arenas would be extremely healthy for PvP.
templesus
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First off I would like to take everyone for taking the time to read this, as it will likely be my last forum post for a long while. Before I step away from the game I want to make one last effort to add something to PvP that nearly all successful MMORPGs have in their games, and that is Arenas.
When looking at a game like Blade and Soul, or Guild Wars 2, or even WoW, one thing that stands out is their competitive e-sports scene that exists because of ranked Arenas. They add a level of competitiveness to the PvP scene as a whole that is unmatched due to things like equalization (people do not have to farm end-game loot to be competitive), low queue times (arena matches are shorter with less people by nature, this directly results in shorter Queues) and consistent regulation (that is, the banning of certain abilities for Arena's only to keep it balanced and primarily skill or comp based).
I believe the addition of 2v2 and 3v3 arenas would be the most beneficial to the game. That is both 1/3 and 1/2 of the people required for current battleground queues(shorter queues!!), and is also a staple in most MMOs as anything beyond that tends to get more difficult to balance. Additionally, non-ranked solo Queues can also be added so new players and inexperienced players can get their feet wet without having to face people on a premade team. How would these arenas be balanced you ask? Well I have prepared a proposed ruleset for such.
Taking from WoW, they ban several abilities that have been deemed *unhealthy* for arena play, these could be due to the OP nature of said abilities, or the fact that they may just not be suited for an arena setting. I believe Legend's ruleset is a great place to start, with a few minor tweaks.
We have decided that you may only choose between the potions mentioned below, to make it as fair as possible. Those are the following:
- Essence of Health - Also known as tri-stat potion
- Essence of Weapon Power - Gives you stamina, weapon damage/crit
- Essence of Spell Power - Gives you magicka, spell damage/crit
- Essence of Weapon Crit - Gives you health, stamina and weapon crit
- Essence of Spell Crit - Gives you health, magicka and spell crit
- Essence of Detection - Gives you magicka, detection and spell dmg/or crit
When it comes to poisons we have decided to only allow three different poisons:
- Damage Health Poison IX - Also known as double dot poison. (Not to be confused with the draining health poison)
- Stealth Draining Poison IX - Prevents enemy to go stealth for 5.5 seconds
- Conspicuous Posion IX - Allows you to see stealthed enemies for 11.5 seconds
Abilities
- Meditate and all its morphs are banned
- No Bolstering Darkness allowed, the damage morph is allowed (Veil of Blades)
- No Sword & Board ultimate allowed, none of its morphs
- No Restoration ultimate allowed, none of its morphs
- Alliance War barrier ultimate is banned, both of its morphs
- Harness Magicka morph is banned, Dampen Magicka however, is allowed
- Daedric Minefield is not allowed, Daedric Tomb is allowed
- Ball of Lightning is not allowed, Streak however is allowed
- No Corossive Armor allowed, None of its morphs
- No Elemental storm allowed, none of its morphs
- ***NO WEAPON SKILL LINE GROUND BASED AOES ALLOWED*** - this one is to keep the integrity of arenas so they are not just AOE stacking, instead each class has access to 1 good damage dealing ground based AOE in their skill trees, and Stamina has access to Caltrops, so those are the allowed options.
- Rite of Passage and all its morphs are banned
- Warden's Tree healing ultimate and all its morphs are banned
- Daedric Prey is not allowed. Haunting Curse is allowed
- Werewolf Transformation and all its morphs are banned
- Pets! We have a special rule when it comes to pets. You are only allowed to use a maximum of (1) pet. If you decide to use Atronach, Bear, Twilight or Scamp for example, then you may only use that and no other pet & no Monster set that gives you a pet, such as Engine Guardian or Maw of Infernal
In addition to these ability rules, it is standard that only 1 of each class may be a part of a team. ZOS would need to code it such that Stamina and Magicka versions of a class can be identified as separate, thus allowing for 10 (soon to be 12) different classes to choose from for a comp. If this is not possible that's unfortunate, but with Necro coming that is still 6 classes to choose from for your comp which is more then enough.
As for gear, I propose it to be simple, you have a choice of the following sets(ran in heavy, medium, or light):
-Seducer
-Julianos
-Shacklebreaker
-A crafted version of stamina seducer to be added to the game (acrobat is not stamina seducer, it is stamina alteration mastery)
-Hundings
-Agility
-Willpower
-Bloodspawn
-Engine guardian
-Slimecraw
-Molag Kena
-1pc Domihaus
-1pc Balorgh
-1pc Shadowrend
-1pc Selenes
-1pc Grothdarr
These will allow for roughly equalized stats, but still give some build diversity to a game that is heavily fun because of the theory crafting and build diversity in it.
As for Champion Points, I propose that every player be allotted 300 champion points to set for Arena matches, why 300 you ask? Because this is the breaking points where it numerically effects your stat pools, and 300 is a good base that prevents from stacking too heavily into one tree or stat without significantly sacrificing elsewhere. For example if someone wants to be a healer, they can sure stack 100 in blessed, but as such will have 0 champion points for damage, thus they cannot succeed in both.
That is my rough proposal for what Arenas would look like. Each win in ranked will raise your ranking based off of the ranking of the other team, with month long seasons that reward players on top of the leaderboards some nice loot/rewards at the end. Each match win would reward 15k ap, and a a loss would award 5k.
I hope that anyone who took the time to read this felt they got their fill and I thank you again, I also hope Zenimax reads this and takes it unto consideration. Appreciate everything! @ZOS_GinaBruno
Edited by templesus on March 23, 2019 3:58PM When looking at a game like Blade and Soul, or Guild Wars 2, or even WoW, one thing that stands out is their competitive e-sports scene that exists because of ranked Arenas. They add a level of competitiveness to the PvP scene as a whole that is unmatched due to things like equalization (people do not have to farm end-game loot to be competitive), low queue times (arena matches are shorter with less people by nature, this directly results in shorter Queues) and consistent regulation (that is, the banning of certain abilities for Arena's only to keep it balanced and primarily skill or comp based).
I believe the addition of 2v2 and 3v3 arenas would be the most beneficial to the game. That is both 1/3 and 1/2 of the people required for current battleground queues(shorter queues!!), and is also a staple in most MMOs as anything beyond that tends to get more difficult to balance. Additionally, non-ranked solo Queues can also be added so new players and inexperienced players can get their feet wet without having to face people on a premade team. How would these arenas be balanced you ask? Well I have prepared a proposed ruleset for such.
Taking from WoW, they ban several abilities that have been deemed *unhealthy* for arena play, these could be due to the OP nature of said abilities, or the fact that they may just not be suited for an arena setting. I believe Legend's ruleset is a great place to start, with a few minor tweaks.
We have decided that you may only choose between the potions mentioned below, to make it as fair as possible. Those are the following:
- Essence of Health - Also known as tri-stat potion
- Essence of Weapon Power - Gives you stamina, weapon damage/crit
- Essence of Spell Power - Gives you magicka, spell damage/crit
- Essence of Weapon Crit - Gives you health, stamina and weapon crit
- Essence of Spell Crit - Gives you health, magicka and spell crit
- Essence of Detection - Gives you magicka, detection and spell dmg/or crit
When it comes to poisons we have decided to only allow three different poisons:
- Damage Health Poison IX - Also known as double dot poison. (Not to be confused with the draining health poison)
- Stealth Draining Poison IX - Prevents enemy to go stealth for 5.5 seconds
- Conspicuous Posion IX - Allows you to see stealthed enemies for 11.5 seconds
Abilities
- Meditate and all its morphs are banned
- No Bolstering Darkness allowed, the damage morph is allowed (Veil of Blades)
- No Sword & Board ultimate allowed, none of its morphs
- No Restoration ultimate allowed, none of its morphs
- Alliance War barrier ultimate is banned, both of its morphs
- Harness Magicka morph is banned, Dampen Magicka however, is allowed
- Daedric Minefield is not allowed, Daedric Tomb is allowed
- Ball of Lightning is not allowed, Streak however is allowed
- No Corossive Armor allowed, None of its morphs
- No Elemental storm allowed, none of its morphs
- ***NO WEAPON SKILL LINE GROUND BASED AOES ALLOWED*** - this one is to keep the integrity of arenas so they are not just AOE stacking, instead each class has access to 1 good damage dealing ground based AOE in their skill trees, and Stamina has access to Caltrops, so those are the allowed options.
- Rite of Passage and all its morphs are banned
- Warden's Tree healing ultimate and all its morphs are banned
- Daedric Prey is not allowed. Haunting Curse is allowed
- Werewolf Transformation and all its morphs are banned
- Pets! We have a special rule when it comes to pets. You are only allowed to use a maximum of (1) pet. If you decide to use Atronach, Bear, Twilight or Scamp for example, then you may only use that and no other pet & no Monster set that gives you a pet, such as Engine Guardian or Maw of Infernal
In addition to these ability rules, it is standard that only 1 of each class may be a part of a team. ZOS would need to code it such that Stamina and Magicka versions of a class can be identified as separate, thus allowing for 10 (soon to be 12) different classes to choose from for a comp. If this is not possible that's unfortunate, but with Necro coming that is still 6 classes to choose from for your comp which is more then enough.
As for gear, I propose it to be simple, you have a choice of the following sets(ran in heavy, medium, or light):
-Seducer
-Julianos
-Shacklebreaker
-A crafted version of stamina seducer to be added to the game (acrobat is not stamina seducer, it is stamina alteration mastery)
-Hundings
-Agility
-Willpower
-Bloodspawn
-Engine guardian
-Slimecraw
-Molag Kena
-1pc Domihaus
-1pc Balorgh
-1pc Shadowrend
-1pc Selenes
-1pc Grothdarr
These will allow for roughly equalized stats, but still give some build diversity to a game that is heavily fun because of the theory crafting and build diversity in it.
As for Champion Points, I propose that every player be allotted 300 champion points to set for Arena matches, why 300 you ask? Because this is the breaking points where it numerically effects your stat pools, and 300 is a good base that prevents from stacking too heavily into one tree or stat without significantly sacrificing elsewhere. For example if someone wants to be a healer, they can sure stack 100 in blessed, but as such will have 0 champion points for damage, thus they cannot succeed in both.
That is my rough proposal for what Arenas would look like. Each win in ranked will raise your ranking based off of the ranking of the other team, with month long seasons that reward players on top of the leaderboards some nice loot/rewards at the end. Each match win would reward 15k ap, and a a loss would award 5k.
I hope that anyone who took the time to read this felt they got their fill and I thank you again, I also hope Zenimax reads this and takes it unto consideration. Appreciate everything! @ZOS_GinaBruno
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casparian✭✭✭✭✭
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This is the last thing ZOS wants. ZOS wants PVP to be something like a daily side quest players do as part of their regular rotation of event ticket grinding, motif dailies, crafting dailies, achievement hunting, and pledges. Maybe do a weekly Cyrodiil raid too, the way guilds have weekly trial raids. Everything ZOS has done with BGs in the last year suggests this is their design direction for PVP going forward. It's intended to be a casual, drop-in/drop-out activity the average player can just hop into without too much dedication.add a level of competitiveness to the PvP scene
That said, I appreciate the time you took to write this, as you've accurately hit on a number of points near the heart of PVP's issues these days. Sorry to see another quality player go.7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.12 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
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This is the last thing ZOS wants. ZOS wants PVP to be something like a daily side quest players do as part of their regular rotation of event ticket grinding, motif dailies, crafting dailies, achievement hunting, and pledges. Maybe do a weekly Cyrodiil raid too, the way guilds have weekly trial raids. Everything ZOS has done with BGs in the last year suggests this is their design direction for PVP going forward. It's intended to be a casual, drop-in/drop-out activity the average player can just hop into without too much dedication.add a level of competitiveness to the PvP scene
That said, I appreciate the time you took to write this, as you've accurately hit on a number of points near the heart of PVP's issues these days. Sorry to see another quality player go.
Thanks for reading! And I’ve got that vibe from the implementation of BGs as well.0 -
Urvoth✭✭✭✭✭
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This is the last thing ZOS wants. ZOS wants PVP to be something like a daily side quest players do as part of their regular rotation of event ticket grinding, motif dailies, crafting dailies, achievement hunting, and pledges. Maybe do a weekly Cyrodiil raid too, the way guilds have weekly trial raids. Everything ZOS has done with BGs in the last year suggests this is their design direction for PVP going forward. It's intended to be a casual, drop-in/drop-out activity the average player can just hop into without too much dedication.add a level of competitiveness to the PvP scene
That said, I appreciate the time you took to write this, as you've accurately hit on a number of points near the heart of PVP's issues these days. Sorry to see another quality player go.
It does seem like that, though I’d say the majority of the hardcore PvP players (BG ones especially) really want something more competitive.
I don’t necessarily agree with all the sets/skill bans but the general idea for an arena system is great. No cp with more set options would be the way to go imo.0 -
likecats✭✭✭✭✭Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.12 -
Urvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
I think an arena system would be good but the banning would have to be seriously looked at.3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The base of BGs would need to be remedied before Zos should work on stepping up the BG game.
Besides that, the core of ESO is not PvP and as it stands, most of PvP is in the base game so it does not drive revenue.
So unless Zos figures out a means to monetize ranked PvP it is not a wise business move.0 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.2 -
Liww✭✭✭If eso wants to create a competetive environment they'd have to overhaul literally everything, they'd have to revamp every class and balance it towards pvp, whereas rn it's almost entirely balanced towards the pve content.
I find it very unlikely to happen, and nitpicking what is and isnt allowed like the OP suggested wont solve balance issues, merely negating some cheese wont cut it.1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Except, for a game to be an e-sports title it should be built around the idea of competitive play, and ESO is built around the complete opposite idea and is being balanced to be made easier and easier with lesser and lesser counterplay each patch.
I think they want the ''Average Joe'' to join battlegrounds/cyrodiil and have some fun without getting absolutely destroyed despite how unprepared or dumb our Joe might be. Which is an unrealistic goal but they've sacrificed soooo much of the competitive side of ESO to achieve that said goal, a lot of the PvP specs only got easier to play as time went on, I'm sure you'll realize what I mean here if you take a look at meta builds for each spec.
Even if we tried to have a competitive ESO arena thing, what would be the point? It would be dominated by heavy armor bleedblades like any other ''competitive'' PvP event in this game. And make it 4v4 to avoid nightblade dominance and at that point thats basically battlegrounds anyways.5 -
likecats✭✭✭✭✭Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.
Yes, I said they are OP when everything that counters them is banned whimsically.
Edited by likecats on March 23, 2019 6:00PM3 -
JeibuKul✭✭I support the idea of a ranked battlegrounds, it would be fun.
But, there are already issues with large queues and games getting stuck on "waiting for players". I don't think there is enough of a population inside the battlegrounds to support dividing the queues into a ranked and unranked.
Unless you have reason to believe that the population of battlegrounds would skyrocket with an implementation like this. It would need a large enough population of people coming in to unranked to "practice" and ranked to make it so you aren't fighting the same people over and over.Streaming on https://www.twitch.tv/jeibukul1 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.
Yes, I said they are OP when everything that counters them is banned whimsically.
In every 2v2 and 3v3 tourney they are also banned. As long as you know what you’re doing, DB S2W is easily countered by blocking and stacking heals.0 -
likecats✭✭✭✭✭Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.
Yes, I said they are OP when everything that counters them is banned whimsically.
In every 2v2 and 3v3 tourney they are also banned. As long as you know what you’re doing, DB S2W is easily countered by blocking and stacking heals.
The fact that they are banned in some private 2v2, or 3v3 tourneys is a fallacious appeal to authority, in other words meaningless.
Additionally, its ironic that you want a competitive ESO arena, and are advocating for spin to win to not be banned.
Spin to win is literally the most mindless ability (that's also effective) available. Huge radius, decent damage, deals execute damage, can't be dodged, procs weapon enchants, can be spammed, no need to aim or anything. Theres a reason it has its name.
In any competitive ESO gameplay, spin to win should be the first ability to be banned for how much it does, and how forgiving it is.
If you don't want spin to win to be banned (in your huge list of bans), then you simply do not care about a competitive environment. Period.Edited by likecats on March 23, 2019 6:25PM4 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.
Yes, I said they are OP when everything that counters them is banned whimsically.
In every 2v2 and 3v3 tourney they are also banned. As long as you know what you’re doing, DB S2W is easily countered by blocking and stacking heals.
The fact that they are banned in some private 2v2, or 3v3 tourneys is a fallacious appeal to authority, in other words meaningless.
Additionally, its ironic that you want a competitive ESO arena, and are advocating for spin to win to not be banned.
Spin to win is literally the most mindless ability (that's also effective) available. Huge radius, decent damage, deals execute damage, can't be dodged, procs weapon enchants, can be spammed, no need to aim or anything. Theres a reason it has its name.
In any competitive ESO gameplay, spin to win should be the first ability to be banned for how much it does, and how forgiving it is.
If you don't want spin to win to be banned (in your huge list of bans), then you simply do not care about a competitive environment. Period.
Ridicilous. Against a good player spin to win would be the least of my worries.But incase you want to know, you counter the DB+spin to win combo just by block casting heals, if you're so low that ST ends up killing you that means an execute did its job.Edited by Ragnarock41 on March 23, 2019 6:33PM0 -
likecats✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.
Yes, I said they are OP when everything that counters them is banned whimsically.
In every 2v2 and 3v3 tourney they are also banned. As long as you know what you’re doing, DB S2W is easily countered by blocking and stacking heals.
The fact that they are banned in some private 2v2, or 3v3 tourneys is a fallacious appeal to authority, in other words meaningless.
Additionally, its ironic that you want a competitive ESO arena, and are advocating for spin to win to not be banned.
Spin to win is literally the most mindless ability (that's also effective) available. Huge radius, decent damage, deals execute damage, can't be dodged, procs weapon enchants, can be spammed, no need to aim or anything. Theres a reason it has its name.
In any competitive ESO gameplay, spin to win should be the first ability to be banned for how much it does, and how forgiving it is.
If you don't want spin to win to be banned (in your huge list of bans), then you simply do not care about a competitive environment. Period.
Ridicilous. Against a good player spin to win would be the least of my worries.
In 1v1, sure, in 3v3, not at all.3 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.
Yes, I said they are OP when everything that counters them is banned whimsically.
In every 2v2 and 3v3 tourney they are also banned. As long as you know what you’re doing, DB S2W is easily countered by blocking and stacking heals.
The fact that they are banned in some private 2v2, or 3v3 tourneys is a fallacious appeal to authority, in other words meaningless.
Additionally, its ironic that you want a competitive ESO arena, and are advocating for spin to win to not be banned.
Spin to win is literally the most mindless ability (that's also effective) available. Huge radius, decent damage, deals execute damage, can't be dodged, procs weapon enchants, can be spammed, no need to aim or anything. Theres a reason it has its name.
In any competitive ESO gameplay, spin to win should be the first ability to be banned for how much it does, and how forgiving it is.
If you don't want spin to win to be banned (in your huge list of bans), then you simply do not care about a competitive environment. Period.
I’ve competed in several 2v2 and 3v3 tourneys and placed first, second etc. in every single tourney the teams using S2W were eliminated rather quickly. The teams using SnB and singling people down or the magicka based teams have historically been at the top.
I wouldn’t advocate to ban it, because it isn’t really an issue imo. If the majority of the competitive scene considers it to be an issue, I would then advocate to ban it.
The great things about ranked arenas is it truly shows the top players in PvP. ZOS can then get feedback from several of these top players on further balancing.Edited by templesus on March 23, 2019 6:36PM0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.
Yes, I said they are OP when everything that counters them is banned whimsically.
In every 2v2 and 3v3 tourney they are also banned. As long as you know what you’re doing, DB S2W is easily countered by blocking and stacking heals.
The fact that they are banned in some private 2v2, or 3v3 tourneys is a fallacious appeal to authority, in other words meaningless.
Additionally, its ironic that you want a competitive ESO arena, and are advocating for spin to win to not be banned.
Spin to win is literally the most mindless ability (that's also effective) available. Huge radius, decent damage, deals execute damage, can't be dodged, procs weapon enchants, can be spammed, no need to aim or anything. Theres a reason it has its name.
In any competitive ESO gameplay, spin to win should be the first ability to be banned for how much it does, and how forgiving it is.
If you don't want spin to win to be banned (in your huge list of bans), then you simply do not care about a competitive environment. Period.
Ridicilous. Against a good player spin to win would be the least of my worries.
In 1v1, sure, in 3v3, not at all.
Once again not a problem. Only the cannon fodder die to such simple approach.0 -
likecats✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.
Yes, I said they are OP when everything that counters them is banned whimsically.
In every 2v2 and 3v3 tourney they are also banned. As long as you know what you’re doing, DB S2W is easily countered by blocking and stacking heals.
The fact that they are banned in some private 2v2, or 3v3 tourneys is a fallacious appeal to authority, in other words meaningless.
Additionally, its ironic that you want a competitive ESO arena, and are advocating for spin to win to not be banned.
Spin to win is literally the most mindless ability (that's also effective) available. Huge radius, decent damage, deals execute damage, can't be dodged, procs weapon enchants, can be spammed, no need to aim or anything. Theres a reason it has its name.
In any competitive ESO gameplay, spin to win should be the first ability to be banned for how much it does, and how forgiving it is.
If you don't want spin to win to be banned (in your huge list of bans), then you simply do not care about a competitive environment. Period.
Ridicilous. Against a good player spin to win would be the least of my worries.
In 1v1, sure, in 3v3, not at all.
Once again not a problem. Only the cannon fodder die to such simple approach.Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.
Yes, I said they are OP when everything that counters them is banned whimsically.
In every 2v2 and 3v3 tourney they are also banned. As long as you know what you’re doing, DB S2W is easily countered by blocking and stacking heals.
The fact that they are banned in some private 2v2, or 3v3 tourneys is a fallacious appeal to authority, in other words meaningless.
Additionally, its ironic that you want a competitive ESO arena, and are advocating for spin to win to not be banned.
Spin to win is literally the most mindless ability (that's also effective) available. Huge radius, decent damage, deals execute damage, can't be dodged, procs weapon enchants, can be spammed, no need to aim or anything. Theres a reason it has its name.
In any competitive ESO gameplay, spin to win should be the first ability to be banned for how much it does, and how forgiving it is.
If you don't want spin to win to be banned (in your huge list of bans), then you simply do not care about a competitive environment. Period.
I’ve competed in several 2v2 and 3v3 tourneys and placed first, second etc. in every single tourney the teams using S2W were eliminated rather quickly. The teams using SnB and singling people down or the magicka based teams have historically been at the top.
I wouldn’t advocate to ban it, because it isn’t really an issue imo. If the majority of the competitive scene considers it to be an issue, I would then advocate to ban it.
The great things about ranked arenas is it truly shows the top players in PvP. ZOS can then get feedback from several of these top players on further balancing.
Ok then, unban elemental storm and all the AOEs. Only cannon fodder dies to those as well.
At least we will have consistency, and not this "Ban anything I don't use, and don't ban anything I do, also ban anything that counters whatever I use".
If spin to win is so useless, then ban it already. Only low tier teams will be affected anyways. The competitive integrity of the tournament will stay for the arguments I presented.
But my suspicion is that you guys couldn't care less about competition, just wanna ban what you don't like.
Edited by likecats on March 23, 2019 6:44PM5 -
ezio45✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭not sure how i feel about this.
adding a more competitive scene would be nice, all that really exists rn is player hosted dueling tournaments.
something like a 1v1 bg would be cool with a weakly leader board, with scored capped at your first 50 or 100 matches for the week (so no lifers like me cant just sit there and keep running it for higher scores)
things that come to mind tho are the fact that the classes are nowhere near balanced enough to make this work. Also its kinda impossible to do this without limiting skills and gear but the selection of that is always going to hurt certain classes more than others3 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭not sure how i feel about this.
adding a more competitive scene would be nice, all that really exists rn is player hosted dueling tournaments.
something like a 1v1 bg would be cool with a weakly leader board, with scored capped at your first 50 or 100 matches for the week (so no lifers like me cant just sit there and keep running it for higher scores)
things that come to mind tho are the fact that the classes are nowhere near balanced enough to make this work. Also its kinda impossible to do this without limiting skills and gear but the selection of that is always going to hurt certain classes more than others
The given gear choices will be fine for all classes, enchants are where things will differ. And class balance is a problem all MMOs face, no matter what there will be a BiS comp, but you can still be competitive regardless of the comp if you are skilled enough.0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
WoW also has streamlined PvP sets. You can kiss a sweet goodbye to your builds if you want a competitive PvP in this game.
In addition:
All PvE sets inside PvP should be banned, including arena and monster sets.Edited by Facefister on March 23, 2019 8:04PM2 -
TriangularChicken✭✭✭✭When looking at a game like Blade and Soul, or Guild Wars 2, or even WoW, one thing that stands out is their competitive e-sports scene that exists because of ranked Arenas. They add a level of competitiveness to the PvP scene as a whole that is unmatched due to things like equalization (people do not have to farm end-game loot to be competitive), low queue times (arena matches are shorter with less people by nature, this directly results in shorter Queues) and consistent regulation (that is, the banning of certain abilities for Arena's only to keep it balanced and primarily skill or comp based).
I believe the addition of 2v2 and 3v3 arenas would be the most beneficial to the game. That is both 1/3 and 1/2 of the people required for current battleground queues(shorter queues!!), and is also a staple in most MMOs as anything beyond that tends to get more difficult to balance. Additionally, non-ranked solo Queues can also be added so new players and inexperienced players can get their feet wet without having to face people on a premade team. How would these arenas be balanced you ask? Well I have prepared a proposed ruleset for such.
That sounds awesome, reminds me of this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/461935/how-to-finally-fix-balance-battlegrounds-in-my-opinion/p1
I think you also need more and better rewards to get people to play BGs.As for Champion Points, I propose that every player be allotted 300 champion points to set for Arena matches, why 300 you ask? Because this is the breaking points where it numerically effects your stat pools, and 300 is a good base that prevents from stacking too heavily into one tree or stat without significantly sacrificing elsewhere. For example if someone wants to be a healer, they can sure stack 100 in blessed, but as such will have 0 champion points for damage, thus they cannot succeed in both.
There should be CP and no CP BGs, playing with CP is simply a problem, with the amount of rolling, blocking, heavy attacking, healing and mitigation in CP there will be 15 min matches with only few kills in CP BGs..not a fan of having only CP BGs.
Also do not agree with the skills you mentioned to be removed, removing resto ult equals killing almost every magicka class.
This is the last thing ZOS wants. ZOS wants PVP to be something like a daily side quest players do as part of their regular rotation of event ticket grinding, motif dailies, crafting dailies, achievement hunting, and pledges. Maybe do a weekly Cyrodiil raid too, the way guilds have weekly trial raids. Everything ZOS has done with BGs in the last year suggests this is their design direction for PVP going forward. It's intended to be a casual, drop-in/drop-out activity the average player can just hop into without too much dedication.add a level of competitiveness to the PvP scene
That's exactly the problem, that's why stealth and snipe exists, for people that are not that good to still be able to kill people. For casuals. Everything except HM trials/dungeons is for casuals. Every other game has PvP for both competitive players and casuals, but no, it won't happen in ESO. So much potential..
0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.
Yes, I said they are OP when everything that counters them is banned whimsically.
In every 2v2 and 3v3 tourney they are also banned. As long as you know what you’re doing, DB S2W is easily countered by blocking and stacking heals.
The fact that they are banned in some private 2v2, or 3v3 tourneys is a fallacious appeal to authority, in other words meaningless.
Additionally, its ironic that you want a competitive ESO arena, and are advocating for spin to win to not be banned.
Spin to win is literally the most mindless ability (that's also effective) available. Huge radius, decent damage, deals execute damage, can't be dodged, procs weapon enchants, can be spammed, no need to aim or anything. Theres a reason it has its name.
In any competitive ESO gameplay, spin to win should be the first ability to be banned for how much it does, and how forgiving it is.
If you don't want spin to win to be banned (in your huge list of bans), then you simply do not care about a competitive environment. Period.
I’ve competed in several 2v2 and 3v3 tourneys and placed first, second etc. in every single tourney the teams using S2W were eliminated rather quickly. The teams using SnB and singling people down or the magicka based teams have historically been at the top.
I wouldn’t advocate to ban it, because it isn’t really an issue imo. If the majority of the competitive scene considers it to be an issue, I would then advocate to ban it.
The great things about ranked arenas is it truly shows the top players in PvP. ZOS can then get feedback from several of these top players on further balancing.
Can you point me to somewhere where i can observe the standings and ladders of the player stats that of which adjectives such as "historically" could accurately be applied?
Because frankly, server side, guild pow wow boys club tournaments mean very little.
To be completely honest most of your purposed bans are ridiculous. This game is not inherently designed around a small scale arena format. Between how CC and CC breaking is handled, to how the limiting factor is resource restricted among many other things like a lack of diminishing returns. The reason arena in wow and even swtor works as decent as they do, is because of how those games handle ability cool downs and creating windows of opportunity. The fact that so much in eso would have to be rebalanced or outright banned speaks volumes for busted ESOs class / combat balance would be when put under a microscope in a tight nit pvp environment.
There is no competitive esport aspect to esos pvp design and there doesnt need to be.Edited by exeeter702 on March 23, 2019 10:46PM4 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.Banning all defensive ultis, without banning dawnbreakers/spin to win, will basically mean the team ganks first wins.
Spin to win/dawnbreaker spam is already a problem with everything enabled, without all the options to counter it, it will be the true caner.
Terrible idea, wouldn't implement any of the whimsical banning.
Not sure if you’ve competed in any 2v2 or 3v3 tourneys recently, but under no circumstances is dawnbreaker s2w op when the comp knows what they are doing.
Yes, I said they are OP when everything that counters them is banned whimsically.
In every 2v2 and 3v3 tourney they are also banned. As long as you know what you’re doing, DB S2W is easily countered by blocking and stacking heals.
The fact that they are banned in some private 2v2, or 3v3 tourneys is a fallacious appeal to authority, in other words meaningless.
Additionally, its ironic that you want a competitive ESO arena, and are advocating for spin to win to not be banned.
Spin to win is literally the most mindless ability (that's also effective) available. Huge radius, decent damage, deals execute damage, can't be dodged, procs weapon enchants, can be spammed, no need to aim or anything. Theres a reason it has its name.
In any competitive ESO gameplay, spin to win should be the first ability to be banned for how much it does, and how forgiving it is.
If you don't want spin to win to be banned (in your huge list of bans), then you simply do not care about a competitive environment. Period.
I’ve competed in several 2v2 and 3v3 tourneys and placed first, second etc. in every single tourney the teams using S2W were eliminated rather quickly. The teams using SnB and singling people down or the magicka based teams have historically been at the top.
I wouldn’t advocate to ban it, because it isn’t really an issue imo. If the majority of the competitive scene considers it to be an issue, I would then advocate to ban it.
The great things about ranked arenas is it truly shows the top players in PvP. ZOS can then get feedback from several of these top players on further balancing.
Can you point me to somewhere where i can observe the standings and ladders of the player stats that of which adjectives such as "historically" could accurately be applied?
Because frankly, server side, guild pow wow boys club tournaments mean very little.
To be completely honest most of your purposed bans are ridiculous. This game is not inherently designed around a small scale arena format. Between how CC and CC breaking is handled, to how the limiting factor is resource restricted among many other things like a lack of diminishing returns. The reason arena in wow and even swtor works as decent as they do, is because of how those games handle ability cool downs and creating windows of opportunity. The fact that so much in eso would have to be rebalanced or outright banned speaks volumes for busted ESOs class / combat balance would be when put under a microscope in a tight nit pvp environment.
There is no competitive esport aspect to esos pvp design and there doesnt need to be.
Thank you for your time and consideration in reading the post. I’m sure other share your view, as others share mine in hopes some form of skilled based gameplay can be introduced. As for the proposed bans, that is the rough outline of what Legend uses, and feel as if it is a good base to go off of. Of course nothing is set in stone, as it’s a proposal.Edited by templesus on March 23, 2019 11:02PM0 -
LeagueTroll✭✭✭✭✭Ban the scripters first. I am not talking about using macro and perfect light weave. I am talking about real scripters, always breakfree instantly, never get hit by snipe or incap.1
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lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭
This is the last thing ZOS wants. ZOS wants PVP to be something like a daily side quest players do as part of their regular rotation of event ticket grinding, motif dailies, crafting dailies, achievement hunting, and pledges. Maybe do a weekly Cyrodiil raid too, the way guilds have weekly trial raids. Everything ZOS has done with BGs in the last year suggests this is their design direction for PVP going forward. It's intended to be a casual, drop-in/drop-out activity the average player can just hop into without too much dedication.add a level of competitiveness to the PvP scene
That said, I appreciate the time you took to write this, as you've accurately hit on a number of points near the heart of PVP's issues these days. Sorry to see another quality player go.
Or two raids a day. What is sleep?William Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x20 -
Stebarnz✭✭✭✭✭
✭When you talk about banning certain sets and certain skills you must see that this game isn't designed around any kind of competitive play.
Its for casuals and RP nerds man.
This wont work for the biggest reason you haven't highlighted, servers are crap, ping inconsistencies, and delay, meaning those with best connection to server at any given time win.
This game is so bugged any mention of the word 'competitive' is a joke.
Play games, compete at sports.1 -
way to convoluted to have a huge ban list. banning morphs lol no. maybe ban food, drink, and poison, but still feels bad. needs to be balance in the first place.1
This discussion has been closed.