Why not make Skyshards and Mages Books account bound.

Androconium · March 2019

I think I'll go for a walk...

Miswar · March 2019

There is 0 need to have the mage guild books not account wide. If one character has collected the books than you should have option to learn them via ingame. Make those "books" appear in your collection with the option to learn them. Or is the character that "learned" them so dumb he can't teach those...? It just the dumb and lazy skill line leveling by the authors.

Psijic skill line leveling is just another brain dead developer leveling idea that makes no sense. This should be upped by fighters skill line leveling once you open up the then gained xp will up the levels.

Both of the above requires no skill, it has nothing to do with you don't "work hard enough" since you just doing same old boring stuff.... both are just dumb designs within the game.

As for skyshards well you optional ways to collect skill points for alts so not that fuzzed about that. However having said that it would not hurt to have these account wide either.

There is an grind and than there is just brain dead grinding with poor and lazy game design. These are the 2nd option...

...also if the development team really enjoy their grinding please to reset what it takes to ie. gain vigor and calltrops like it was. That would than in level with these mage books and psijic crap.

None of these changes takes nothing away from these "lets play eso roleplay warriors with their overland trash content" so no need to feel salty if by any miracle developers actually start improving their product.

corpseblade · March 2019

Serious question for those supporting OP: is this the first mmorpg you have ever played? These games are character-driven. I've never played an mmorpg where character skills are shared b/c each one earns its own way. (SWTOR has legacies, but you don't just earn skills one time, do you?)

As someone earlier mentioned, it sounds like you want to rush to endgame. I can't imagine this will ever be free. Perhaps someday the game will let you PAY to speed up collection of skyshards and lorebooks just like they do mount training and leveling. Maybe suggest the price you would be willing to pay.

As for console players and the argument that they do not have addons to assist locating skyshards and lorebooks, believe it or not a lot of people on PC do not use them. Google the location on your phone. There are lots of sites to help if you get desperate.

Miswar · March 2019

corpseblade wrote: »

Serious question for those supporting OP: is this the first mmorpg you have ever played? These games are character-driven. I've never played an mmorpg where character skills are shared b/c each one earns its own way. (SWTOR has legacies, but you don't just earn skills one time, do you?)

As someone earlier mentioned, it sounds like you want to rush to endgame. I can't imagine this will ever be free. Perhaps someday the game will let you PAY to speed up collection of skyshards and lorebooks just like they do mount training and leveling. Maybe suggest the price you would be willing to pay.

As for console players and the argument that they do not have addons to assist locating skyshards and lorebooks, believe it or not a lot of people on PC do not use them. Google the location on your phone. There are lots of sites to help if you get desperate.

You propably have hard times to understand what people are saying but since you typed a lot...

Not 1st mmorpg... and juding by reading your favour thr "rpg" part of as roleplaying mindless content all over and over again.

I have news for you. That is not "endgame" it is mindless grind due to bad game design.

Also you apparently have failed read or see that people have not said you don't need to that. Sure you do... just when you are on your 12th character it might be a bit of an wake up call... do it once... make a system that you can "teach" those fine lorebooks via end game NOT via rl wallet. How hard is that do understand and hardly it will affect your "roleplaying" of overland content?

...or is the roleplaying guide that states that 1st character cannot teach the content to your other ie. magic characters? Is the chracter too dumb to it or what is it? Enlighten us please.

If the mindless grinds over and over again are the focus than please revert calltrops / vigor etc changes back to original levels... they were nerfed to dust. They are no diffrent or is that to "rush to endgame" too nowdays?

Before you start you likely excuse that you were here from Beta than newsflash I did the old veteran ranks etc.

Defending poor desing and out dated system is not that many look for the games. Leave the skyshard system as it is since other ways to gaining skill points decent speed but stop the crap with lorebooks etc... or if you want to enhance the enjoyment than make those spawn locations random. That would boost the roleplaying aspects don't you think?

Nothing personal though.. enjoy your roleplaying experience

Siohwenoeht · March 2019

Miswar wrote: »

corpseblade wrote: »

Serious question for those supporting OP: is this the first mmorpg you have ever played? These games are character-driven. I've never played an mmorpg where character skills are shared b/c each one earns its own way. (SWTOR has legacies, but you don't just earn skills one time, do you?)

As someone earlier mentioned, it sounds like you want to rush to endgame. I can't imagine this will ever be free. Perhaps someday the game will let you PAY to speed up collection of skyshards and lorebooks just like they do mount training and leveling. Maybe suggest the price you would be willing to pay.

As for console players and the argument that they do not have addons to assist locating skyshards and lorebooks, believe it or not a lot of people on PC do not use them. Google the location on your phone. There are lots of sites to help if you get desperate.

You propably have hard times to understand what people are saying but since you typed a lot...

He's PROBABLY only having a difficult time understanding you, but I think I get the gist of your comments which are quite combative and derogatory coming from someone espousing that one playstyle shouldn't affect another.

JUDGING by your comments though, something along the lines of fortnite or perhaps a "eastern" p2w MMO might be better suited to your tastes.

Miswar · March 2019

No. There was nothing personal about it and stating the facts only.

I do not play p2w games nor should they be condoned. There is nothing p2w here either if you bothered to actually read what has been said.

Also people can still "roleplay" their fantasies by cruising the overland point A, B, C, D etc if that what makes them feeling good. They can have weddings, funerals or whatever makes them tick.

...but the above should not be reason why developers cannot fix the old dated and flawed mechanics.

Collecting lorebooks +10th times has nothing to do with endgame content. None whatsoever... if that is the case revert the pvp nerfs regarding caltrops, vigors and you have 3 campaign population locked for longtime too. Fair is fair isn't it?

If you feel againts that than don't make it double standard by collecting ie. lorebooks " roleplaying element"... and why not make those books spawn at random locations if it is working as intended?

Siohwenoeht · March 2019

Lorebooks have several locations they can be at already, not totally random though. Personally, if zos makes a change, they would need to divorce skill points from skyshards completely and lorebooks from mages guild reputation.

Their needs to be some mechanic to gaining skill points, period. Whether that is skyshards or questlines doesn't matter, but in no way should they be "granted" to alts. This puts new players at a distinct disadvantage.

Up the mages guild reputation gain on their dailies to reasonable levels then leave the lorebooks as flavor and skill line bonus experience as they are now.

Or keep the system as is and add a glowing compass marker when you're near one and/or a waypoint if your "main" collected it already.

My gripe is not from a "roleplay" or immersion point of view, but a "you need to do something, anything, to gain skill points/guild rep/skill line experience" point of view.

And your comment: "lets play eso roleplay warriors with their overland trash content" is quite derogatory and combative.

Apox · March 2019

Was discussing this with my buddy, an idea we came up with that I liked is, if you collect every skyshard in the game and every lorebook in the game, you unlock a home furnishing that your other characters can interact with to gain the benefits of all that stuff.

Every skyshard and every lorebook is a monumental task even with addons. Not having some way to transfer tem between characters is quite tedious. As other mentioned when i make new characters Id like to focus on playing the character, whether its questing or dungeoning, and not worry about a grind I've done many times before. Inb4 "well you did it that many times so it shouldnt be a problem to do it again."

Expanding, at the very least mount speed training should have some sort of account shareability. Ill grind through the months of upgrading bag capacity and stamina, but one thing that outright prevents me from making and playing more characters is slow mount speed.

Lastly, professions that every character will want. Namely, provisioning and alchemy. Why cant my main write a book that I can send to my alts teaching them everything he has learned about alchemy and provisioning?

pieratsos · March 2019

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

My gripe is not from a "roleplay" or immersion point of view, but a "you need to do something, anything, to gain skill points/guild rep/skill line experience" point of view.

Sure you need to do something. As long as that something is at least something engaging and fun. When you are talking about a braindead grind that doesnt teach you anything other than "how to waste your time" then you are not actually doing anything. It just turns people off when they want to make a new alt cause of all the boring stuff you have to do that basically have nothing to do with actually playing the game.

tldr, walking around for hours reading books and actively trying to avoid any fight so you wont waste any more time than you have to isnt what i would call "doing something" and at that point, you may as well give it to everyone for free.

eso_lags · March 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

In a lot of ways, skyshards really are one shot. Coming back later will never provoke exactly the same kind of reaction as your first trip there. (This is ignoring a few shards that are very poorly positioned.) Sometimes you have to poke around an old ruin, other times, there's a vista in front of you as you consume the shard. But, once you've seen that once, it'll be familiar the next. Encouraging players to chase the shards repeatedly does a disservice to the system. Not a huge one, but in small ways.

Should skill points be account wide? I don't think so.

Should skyshards? Maybe.

Should lorebooks? Probably not. Because that's a skill line unlock you're forcing. Though I do understand, and am sympathetic to the people who want all the guild lines to be account wide. I just don't agree with them.

I do somewhat agree with you here, @starkerealm.

Unfortunately, skillpoints are tied to skyshards, at least 143 of them. There could always be a game update to decouple skyshards from skillpoints, where shards are only an exploration achievement (akin to the Lightbringer, I like M'aiq, etc achievements) but those skillpoints would have to go somewhere and I doubt that the people that want the associated skillpoints made accountwide would prefer a different method of acquiring them.

That's the thing. Skill points as a whole? No. I think the 143 from Skyshards is a middle ground. It's enough to significantly accelerate character advancement, without completely breaking advancement.

I'm not sure if you saw the furnishing suggestion above, but that would 108 Skill Points for the base game map (I think), with a significantly higher TV/voucher costs per point after that, also requiring that you'd completed the related Skyshard hunter achievements. So, that might be a more viable option than just going, "okay, here, have it, go wild."

The furnishing option could be a possible solution. At the very least, I DO think that skyshards/lore books should appear on the map for everyone without the use of addons.

Interesting note about Lorebooks: There's three or four locations for each. So, puting those on the map gets pretty cluttered. That said, the addon does have a feature where lorebooks (and/or skyshards) will only show up once certain prerequisites are met. Like clearing the adventurer achievement, the explorer achievement, or finishing the zone's main quest. I could see some system where lorebooks are highlighted on the map based on some prerequisite, or if they're on the compass (which is also an option in the addon.)

Here's a screenshot:

It's a little messy, and I am cheating a little bit, because I have Editic Memory turned on as well, there. Even just activating the compass markers for undiscovered books would be a huge help to the console crowd, though.

heaven13 wrote: »

However, I think if ZoS ever came out with a skyshard catch-up type mechanic like this, it would likely be crown store only similar to riding lessons. Either you collect them as intended, or you pay x amount of crowns for all skyshards in a single zone for a single character. Probably wouldn't include Cyro as an option, or DLC zones (because that would probably be more coding work to run check if person owns DLC or is ESO+ and therefore should have access to those skyshards in the first place).

If it's tied directly to the achievements, then it wouldn't really matter if either owning the DLC or having ESO+, it will indicate that at some point the player did have access to the zone. Ironically, I would be a little surprised if this made it into the crown store.

That said, and this is backend stuff I'm not really sure of. But it might be possible to have the furniture set a flag if you log in on a character with the achievement, unlocking that furnishing's ability to grant you the shards, and if that flag hadn't been set simply marking the unknown shards on the map.

There could easily be an option to turn the lorebooks and skyshards off. The map is fine for me when using the add on for lorebooks/skyshards. The problem is console players are screwed. Most players would use this if they had the option. I play on both platforms and it makes grinding these a million times easier. It just shows what zos thinks of its console community.

CassandraGemini · March 2019

Apox wrote: »

Was discussing this with my buddy, an idea we came up with that I liked is, if you collect every skyshard in the game and every lorebook in the game, you unlock a home furnishing that your other characters can interact with to gain the benefits of all that stuff.

We were actually discussing something pretty much exactly like that here yesterday, too, and I still think it's a really good idea. I absolutely don't get what makes the people who are against OPs proposition say that you should have to "work" for the things we're talking about here on every new character you create, since, really, they don't have anything to do with that specific character. It's a grind that consists of walking around and collecting certain things. Everyone can do that just the same, no matter if I have a stam/mag dd, a tank, a healer, a templar, a nightblade, a khajiit, a breton or whatever. It doesn't make any difference at all. If this was about some sort of character specific test or something where you have to prove that you have mastered your class/role, I could totally understand people not wanting this to be handed to new characters, since it wouldn't make any sense. But this?

So if you've done the whole collecting process once with one character, shouldn't that be enough? Since this is really what we're saying here all the time, it's not that we want the "power for free" or something. It's just that we don't want to go through the meaningless collection process again and again, because it never changes no matter what. It's always the same, there's no replay value just because you have a different toon now. @Siohwenoeht suggested to divorce the lorebooks from the Mages Guild leveling and instead give the dailies a higher point output. That would be totally okay for me as well. Just let us get the points needed to further a skill line from something else than a completely tedious process of "running from x to y to collect z". This just gets too old too fast.

srfrogg23 · March 2019

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

It's not enough to have CP be account wide? That was specifically designed to make the game more alt friendly as a player reward for playing the game.

It's an outlook question. What does your game value? The sanctity of the character as a role-playing tool, or the player as someone who controls their character.

This isn't a binary thing either. There were account wide unlocks before Champion Points were a thing. The first ones were a little harder to see. Like the Palomino and Imperial Horses, which were still sold to the player, but only cost one gold. Then the Dye System was added.

Champion points are an awkward concession. It's a bend of the idea that, as an MMO, the game needs a long form character advancement system. Many players, if they get to "the end," will get bored and wander off. Veteran Ranks were designed to alleviate that, but it was still finite. CP was an attempt to skirt around that, still providing a long term advancement ladder, but also providing concessions to the idea that grinding endlessly wouldn't be fun.

I mean, there were problems. Without a spending cap, some people rocketed away to the point that there were several players with over 1k CP before the spending caps were implemented.

Once the caps did come in, that became the new, "level cap," that a lot of people viewed as mandatory for "true endgame," even though the entire system was designed to subvert that.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Skill points are specific to a character. If EVERYTHING that SOMEONE thinks is boring is made account wide, then why bother with a leveling system?

Except, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about specific systems that are... let's say, "without repetitive entertainment value." It's not that collecting skyshards is boring, it's that once you've done it a couple times, (and I do mean collect them all), the novelty factor starts to wear out.

At least with Lorebooks, they do have multiple potential locations, so you can stumble across one in the wrong place as a nice surprise. You don't get that if you're using an addon, or looking up guide, but an attempt was made.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Why bother with progression systems at all?

At that point, the important question to ask is, "which systems improve the player's experience, and which do not?"

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Just make a lobby based adventure game with character archetypes like Team Fortress 2.

Amusingly, DCUO has this as an optional mode. So, someone did. And... it's not that great.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I wonder why they dont make a PvE version of Overwatch? Maybe because it would be boring as hell?

Blizarrd did. Apparently the dayjob element was what dragged down the experience. You were creating your own superhero, but you also were expected to do stuff as your alter ego.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

This is an RPG.

In 2019, that classification has become so vague as to be meaningless. Dark Souls is an RPG. Far Cry 5 has RPG-elements. Destiny is an RPG. The Division is an RPG. The XCOM reboot and XCOM 2 could be called Tactical RPGs. Everything in the Immersive Sim sub-genre is an RPG.

ESO is an RPG, but everything after having a basic progression system, is up in the air.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Progression systems and character specialization are important aspects of the RPG genre.

And yet, the last two single player games from Bethesda Game Studios eschewed this entire concept, in favor of temporary focuses that could eventually be leveled past.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Skill points, skyshards, lorebooks, and yes, some grinding are the ways that this game facilitates those mechanisms.

Currently. Sort of. Skyshards and Lorebooks are collectibles. There's compelling reasons for Lorebooks to be per character (again, fresh characters with Meteor would be a bad situation.)

However, the actual purpose of skyshards is to get you to explore the world. Look at the cryptic hints in the achievement. They're out there, and the team wants you to poke around looking for them. They're there to encourage you to take in the sights.

In a lot of ways, skyshards really are one shot. Coming back later will never provoke exactly the same kind of reaction as your first trip there. (This is ignoring a few shards that are very poorly positioned.) Sometimes you have to poke around an old ruin, other times, there's a vista in front of you as you consume the shard. But, once you've seen that once, it'll be familiar the next. Encouraging players to chase the shards repeatedly does a disservice to the system. Not a huge one, but in small ways.

Should skill points be account wide? I don't think so.

Should skyshards? Maybe.

Should lorebooks? Probably not. Because that's a skill line unlock you're forcing. Though I do understand, and am sympathetic to the people who want all the guild lines to be account wide. I just don't agree with them.

Just because you think it is boring or pointless doesn't mean that the alternative you are presenting is better. First, you're arguing for this change based of the mistaken belief that everyone needs all of them to play the game. It has been established that as long as you're not sitting in one place grinding mobs to 50, you should have enough books and skyshards at max level to be viable for end game with minimal preparation.

Second, you are focusing too intently on skyshards. I'm certain the intent was NOT for players to use a 3rd party guide to go on a personal quest to pick up all skyshards one after another. Yeah - that's going to be boring as hell just running from one skyshard to the next. You're supposed to pick them up while you're doing the quest content and zone exploration.

No. The development team does not need to bend over backwards to implement a change like this because you and some others insist on trying to play "efficiently" by powering through 50 levels as quickly as possible then opening a guide and doing nothing else other than hunting down 143 skyshards over the span of a few hours.

The game is fine. If anything, it rewards people effectively for playing the open world content and punishes people for ignoring that content for the sake of "efficiency".

Okay so you are basically saying there is only 1 way to play this game and it is your way, glad we established that.

Now let's talk about all the different ways to actually play the game. (And you can't say people shouldn't play these ways why you ask? Because zos hasn't removed them as options from the game to gain experience from. If they didn't want it as a way to xp they would have removed xp gain from places and forced xp only through quests like you are insisting here.)

Quests- after the first play through some people really could care less and press skip as fast as possible to get through it. And on top of that it gives very small amounts of experience.

Cyrodil- some people only like open world pvp and you gain experience in there.

Battlegrounds- you can spam them to level up and you even get a daily random that gives a nice chunk of xp.

Dungeons- you can spam them or you can que for the random daily for a huge xp reward.

Dolmains- you can play with as many people as you want here and you gain decent experience.

Grinding- you can play with 1 other person for maximum results and it is by far the fastest way to gain xp.

Xp scrolls/events- right now people are getting 100% xp for free. If the event isn't up they sell scrolls in the crown store.

So in fact you are wrong that your way is the correct way to play the game. People that only like pvp are forced to run pve for gear and monster sets. Pve players have to run some form of pvp to get moves.

I don't get why you want people that enjoy things not to play them because you don't think it is correct? Did you make the game or did zos? Because last I checked if zos wanted the game to strikly be quest based then they would remove all other xp options from the game.

All people want are quality of life changes in some form so they don't have to spend hours grinding things they have no interest in after ready doing it once.

Pve players use to cry about how hard it was to get vigor and caltrops because it was "to much of a grind in content they hated" and the xp for the skill lines got nerfed making it so you can have it in 3 hours if you join a Zerg. And that is actual content.......

What people want is to not go to place x hit button rinse and repeat. It is not hard content but it will surely put you to sleep trying to do it. Zos cares about $$$$ and they lose money when people don't make new toons because that's less stuff bought from their crown store (toon slot and xp scrolls). In the end that means less money for zos to create new content and keep the game alive meaning it dies eventually, quality of life stuff only helps the game keep running

I never said there was only my way to play, or that there is only 1 way to play. I said that focusing your time specifically on collecting skyshards is incredibly boring and you deserve to bored if you're doing that.

Whatever silly excuses you use to justify that behavior are on you. It especially does not mean that the game needs to be streamlined, dumbed down, made more accessible, or otherwise changed to cater to your proclivities.

Ri_Khan · March 2019

I don't think this needs to be changed at all. If you want 15 fully decked out characters, that's on you.

Edziu · March 2019

Ri_Khan wrote: »

I don't think this needs to be changed at all. If you want 15 fully decked out characters, that's on you.

I would want to have just 5 as 1 each class..but have problem to do this with just 2nd char....so?
so I dont play this game that much as I could if I could play with more than 1 character at once as I dont have any fun of repeating this headless chicken running so I dont have more characters to play this game to play this game much more at all

thehilanderb14a_ESO · March 2019

What they need to do is just give console players access to the same resources that PC users have through the Skyshards and Lorebooks mods.

MikaHR · March 2019

ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »

Mages guild books is how you level the mages guild skill line. If you're going to make that account wide and make every character start off with the same amount of books/level, then do the same for fighters guild/daedra and undead killed. In fact, do the same for dark brotherhood and thieves guild because who wants to to grind through contracts and heists and sacraments to level those? And also, why not max out the psijic skill line too so we don't have to hunt down rifts again and again and again? In fact, once you've done everything on one character just make EVERYTHING available on all future characters. Titles. Achievements. Remove pvp alliances because why not? Max those out once we've maxed all the pvp skill lines out for one character. Remove any and all challenge or grind from the game because that's what mmo's are all about. This is a game. We shouldn't have to WORK to become the best there ever was at any given thing on any given class or build.
</sarcasm>

Not our fault skyhards/lorebooks/psijic are anti-gamplay braindead mechanics....that dont involve any gameplay.

Once you finally figure that out....maybe youll have somethign wortwhile to say, shyshards should have ALWAYS been account wide and mage guild/psijic tied to questlines just like "world" skill line with main quest.

Achievements too should have ALWAYS been account wide.

Androconium · March 2019

Ri_Khan wrote: »

I don't think this needs to be changed at all. If you want 15 fully decked out characters, that's on you.

This.
It doesn't get any simpler than this.

starkerealm · March 2019

eso_lags wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

In a lot of ways, skyshards really are one shot. Coming back later will never provoke exactly the same kind of reaction as your first trip there. (This is ignoring a few shards that are very poorly positioned.) Sometimes you have to poke around an old ruin, other times, there's a vista in front of you as you consume the shard. But, once you've seen that once, it'll be familiar the next. Encouraging players to chase the shards repeatedly does a disservice to the system. Not a huge one, but in small ways.

Should skill points be account wide? I don't think so.

Should skyshards? Maybe.

Should lorebooks? Probably not. Because that's a skill line unlock you're forcing. Though I do understand, and am sympathetic to the people who want all the guild lines to be account wide. I just don't agree with them.

I do somewhat agree with you here, @starkerealm.

Unfortunately, skillpoints are tied to skyshards, at least 143 of them. There could always be a game update to decouple skyshards from skillpoints, where shards are only an exploration achievement (akin to the Lightbringer, I like M'aiq, etc achievements) but those skillpoints would have to go somewhere and I doubt that the people that want the associated skillpoints made accountwide would prefer a different method of acquiring them.

That's the thing. Skill points as a whole? No. I think the 143 from Skyshards is a middle ground. It's enough to significantly accelerate character advancement, without completely breaking advancement.

I'm not sure if you saw the furnishing suggestion above, but that would 108 Skill Points for the base game map (I think), with a significantly higher TV/voucher costs per point after that, also requiring that you'd completed the related Skyshard hunter achievements. So, that might be a more viable option than just going, "okay, here, have it, go wild."

The furnishing option could be a possible solution. At the very least, I DO think that skyshards/lore books should appear on the map for everyone without the use of addons.

Interesting note about Lorebooks: There's three or four locations for each. So, puting those on the map gets pretty cluttered. That said, the addon does have a feature where lorebooks (and/or skyshards) will only show up once certain prerequisites are met. Like clearing the adventurer achievement, the explorer achievement, or finishing the zone's main quest. I could see some system where lorebooks are highlighted on the map based on some prerequisite, or if they're on the compass (which is also an option in the addon.)

Here's a screenshot:

It's a little messy, and I am cheating a little bit, because I have Editic Memory turned on as well, there. Even just activating the compass markers for undiscovered books would be a huge help to the console crowd, though.

heaven13 wrote: »

However, I think if ZoS ever came out with a skyshard catch-up type mechanic like this, it would likely be crown store only similar to riding lessons. Either you collect them as intended, or you pay x amount of crowns for all skyshards in a single zone for a single character. Probably wouldn't include Cyro as an option, or DLC zones (because that would probably be more coding work to run check if person owns DLC or is ESO+ and therefore should have access to those skyshards in the first place).

If it's tied directly to the achievements, then it wouldn't really matter if either owning the DLC or having ESO+, it will indicate that at some point the player did have access to the zone. Ironically, I would be a little surprised if this made it into the crown store.

That said, and this is backend stuff I'm not really sure of. But it might be possible to have the furniture set a flag if you log in on a character with the achievement, unlocking that furnishing's ability to grant you the shards, and if that flag hadn't been set simply marking the unknown shards on the map.

There could easily be an option to turn the lorebooks and skyshards off. The map is fine for me when using the add on for lorebooks/skyshards. The problem is console players are screwed. Most players would use this if they had the option. I play on both platforms and it makes grinding these a million times easier. It just shows what zos thinks of its console community.

Note the check boxes down the right side of the screen. That's not an addon... I mean, some of the options available are put there by addons, and most of my UI is reformated by an addon to allow my inventory and menus to display more stuff. But, the filters are base game functionality. In fact, you get even more options in Cyrodiil, and can enable things like discovered town locations, (which is filtered out by default.) No idea if that's there for you on the controller UI, though.

starkerealm · March 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I never said there was only my way to play, or that there is only 1 way to play. I said that focusing your time specifically on collecting skyshards is incredibly boring and you deserve to bored if you're doing that.

Well, that's a mistake. As a game designer you should never seek to bore your player. You may attempt to restrict what a player does by making a process more tedious, but a bored player will look for other ways to entertain themselves. At that point, the best you can hope is that they'll only be looking at websites while waiting for load screens. At worst, they will simply fire up a different game and never return. Actively punishing a player with tedious activities is behavior that should be considered very carefully.

Also worth remembering, the Skyshards grind is supposed to be even more punishing than it is in practice. We're not supposed to have maps on hand that point us to the right locations, or addons that plant the shards on our map. Now, those are acceptable, but we are supposed to wander around aimlessly, interpreting cryptic riddles, looking for the things. Some of the boredom has already been alleviated. It was supposed to be even more punishing in its original iteration.

As with a number of mechanics in the game, it reflects another era of the game's design. One that doesn't fit as well with the game that exists today.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Whatever silly excuses you use to justify that behavior are on you. It especially does not mean that the game needs to be streamlined, dumbed down, made more accessible, or otherwise changed to cater to your proclivities.

Wow, you broke out the dictionary for this. It would have been nice if you'd picked some appropriate arguments.

So, let's take these in no particular order:

If the game is not accessible, that's a problem. Full stop. If you're making a game, your primary source of income is from selling that game to players. Making a game obtuse or inaccessible is an option, but it's a risky one. In the case of a game that also serves as a recurring revenue stream, an inaccessible game is a poorly design choice.

ZOS has expressed interest in making the game more accessible over the years. The guild trader system, the group finder... hell, One Tamriel stands as a monument to increased accessibility.

For ESO to thrive, it does need to be as accessible as reasonably possible. At that point, picking a random collectible and screaming, "THIS IS THE HILL I WILL DIE ON!" is a little peculiar.

Dumbing a game down is when the intricacies of the game are stripped out in the name of making the game more accessible. For example, the removal of a player inventory in Bioshock was considered "dumbing it down" from System Shock 2's system.

There is no real example of ESO being dumbed down. You might be able to point to the overhaul of the Provisioning system, or the introduction of One Tamriel as examples of this, but those didn't really dumb down the experience, they simply took pain points and dealt with them.

Which is the other term you chucked out as a pejorative: Streamlining. Streamlining is where you look at issues with a game, things that interfere with the flow of the experience, and you identify and implement ways to improve it. You deal with issues that disrupt the experience.

In point of fact, "streamlining," is improving a game. Now, I know, a lot of developers do say, "we streamlined this," as code for taking out choices or options. That can happen. If ESO chose to do away with skill points, attribute points, and skill lines entirely, then locking you to specific skills on your bar based on your equipped gear, that would streamline builds, but it would also dumb down the experience.

As mentioned above, ESO has undergone some significant streamlining. The huge example is One Tamriel. Before that, if you were in different alliances and wanted to do PvE content together, you needed to either group into the same dungeon, or make sure your characters were roughly the same level, roughly in range for the content you wanted to do, and were both the same Alliance. Now, if my friend picks up the game, I can jump over there, regardless of character, and give them a hand. That's streamlining.

Collecting Skyshards is a pain point. There's no engaging gameplay decision involved in locating or using them. Certainly not after you've found them the first time. It's simply busywork. So, within that perspective, changing that system radically would be a QoL improvement.

Also, I realize you may have missed this, but, a "proclivity" is an innate impulse. You're probably familiar with it from people referring to someone's "sexual proclivities," which is a clever(ish) way to say that someone's sexual drive is unnatural and perverse. All of this is, not exactly, relevant to a discussion on ESO, (or, at least, I dearly hope it's not applicable.)

Tandor · March 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »

Mages guild books is how you level the mages guild skill line. If you're going to make that account wide and make every character start off with the same amount of books/level, then do the same for fighters guild/daedra and undead killed. In fact, do the same for dark brotherhood and thieves guild because who wants to to grind through contracts and heists and sacraments to level those? And also, why not max out the psijic skill line too so we don't have to hunt down rifts again and again and again? In fact, once you've done everything on one character just make EVERYTHING available on all future characters. Titles. Achievements. Remove pvp alliances because why not? Max those out once we've maxed all the pvp skill lines out for one character. Remove any and all challenge or grind from the game because that's what mmo's are all about. This is a game. We shouldn't have to WORK to become the best there ever was at any given thing on any given class or build.
</sarcasm>

Not our fault skyhards/lorebooks/psijic are anti-gamplay braindead mechanics....that dont involve any gameplay.

Once you finally figure that out....maybe youll have somethign wortwhile to say, shyshards should have ALWAYS been account wide and mage guild/psijic tied to questlines just like "world" skill line with main quest.

Achievements too should have ALWAYS been account wide.

Skyshards and lorebooks are only anti-gameplay braindead mechanics to those who choose to develop characters through anti-gameplay braindead mechanics. If they're picked up as you play through a zone in the way it was intended to be played then they fall into place as an integral part of that gameplay.

ArenGesus · March 2019

Tandor wrote: »

Skyshards and lorebooks are only anti-gameplay braindead mechanics to those who choose to develop characters through anti-gameplay braindead mechanics. If they're picked up as you play through a zone in the way it was intended to be played then they fall into place as an integral part of that gameplay.

PVP is a thing. I'm sure you do actually consider it braindead, but the fact remains that it's a type of play ESO supports. A pvp-er isn't going to play through the zone's - and that is still a way of playing that is intended. Even still, argument doesn't provide any actual justification for not changing it, you're just being hard-headed for the sake of hard-headedness. You lose nothing, you just don't want to see anyone else gain something.

Anyway, do you really play through each and every zone on each and every character you have? Good on you, if you do, but that just sounds crazily brain-dead to me. Like reading the same book 15 times in a row. I guess whether or not something is brain-dead is subjective. What's different is that how I would change the game if were up to me wouldn't impact you whatsoever, while I'm willing to bet your perfect game would have driven me away ages ago.

Miswar · March 2019

Tandor wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »

Mages guild books is how you level the mages guild skill line. If you're going to make that account wide and make every character start off with the same amount of books/level, then do the same for fighters guild/daedra and undead killed. In fact, do the same for dark brotherhood and thieves guild because who wants to to grind through contracts and heists and sacraments to level those? And also, why not max out the psijic skill line too so we don't have to hunt down rifts again and again and again? In fact, once you've done everything on one character just make EVERYTHING available on all future characters. Titles. Achievements. Remove pvp alliances because why not? Max those out once we've maxed all the pvp skill lines out for one character. Remove any and all challenge or grind from the game because that's what mmo's are all about. This is a game. We shouldn't have to WORK to become the best there ever was at any given thing on any given class or build.
</sarcasm>

Not our fault skyhards/lorebooks/psijic are anti-gamplay braindead mechanics....that dont involve any gameplay.

Once you finally figure that out....maybe youll have somethign wortwhile to say, shyshards should have ALWAYS been account wide and mage guild/psijic tied to questlines just like "world" skill line with main quest.

Achievements too should have ALWAYS been account wide.

Skyshards and lorebooks are only anti-gameplay braindead mechanics to those who choose to develop characters through anti-gameplay braindead mechanics. If they're picked up as you play through a zone in the way it was intended to be played then they fall into place as an integral part of that gameplay.

Hmmmm... you really call obtaining lorebooks etc "integral part of gameplay" when you doing the same thing for the +10th time around?

That is far from what I would call "integral part" of anything. It just does not make any sense. Maybe if the overland system actually would be challenging which it is definately NOT. The whole overland content is 99% click click everything is dead grind....

It is a bad game design which takes time from the players that woud otherwise do something useful. It simply does not make 0% sense simple as that.

Kidgangster101 · March 2019

corpseblade wrote: »

Serious question for those supporting OP: is this the first mmorpg you have ever played? These games are character-driven. I've never played an mmorpg where character skills are shared b/c each one earns its own way. (SWTOR has legacies, but you don't just earn skills one time, do you?)

As someone earlier mentioned, it sounds like you want to rush to endgame. I can't imagine this will ever be free. Perhaps someday the game will let you PAY to speed up collection of skyshards and lorebooks just like they do mount training and leveling. Maybe suggest the price you would be willing to pay.

As for console players and the argument that they do not have addons to assist locating skyshards and lorebooks, believe it or not a lot of people on PC do not use them. Google the location on your phone. There are lots of sites to help if you get desperate.

You clearly skip stuff said in this thread my friend. Before you say "is this your first MMORPG you ever played?" Do some research here my friend or you just open your mouth and insert foot. Other games do have a progression system together.

Ff11 and ff14 your toon was able to switch roles so you could play any class/role in any.content without recreating it. Ff11 even had a Merritt point system like ESO and your level 1 ninja got the buffs you earned on your 75 warrior.

DC universe online allowed you to earn skill points on any toon and unlock those skill points on your other toons.

You do understand not everyone does trials right? Some people's end game is cyrodil and battlegrounds only. You do know a pvp player that only does pvp hates being in pve content as much as a person that only like pve hates doing pvp right? Again there is so many ways to play this game and collecting skyshards definitely isn't playing the game because for some people it is a deterrent and makes them rather do something else.

Kidgangster101 · March 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

It's not enough to have CP be account wide? That was specifically designed to make the game more alt friendly as a player reward for playing the game.

It's an outlook question. What does your game value? The sanctity of the character as a role-playing tool, or the player as someone who controls their character.

This isn't a binary thing either. There were account wide unlocks before Champion Points were a thing. The first ones were a little harder to see. Like the Palomino and Imperial Horses, which were still sold to the player, but only cost one gold. Then the Dye System was added.

Champion points are an awkward concession. It's a bend of the idea that, as an MMO, the game needs a long form character advancement system. Many players, if they get to "the end," will get bored and wander off. Veteran Ranks were designed to alleviate that, but it was still finite. CP was an attempt to skirt around that, still providing a long term advancement ladder, but also providing concessions to the idea that grinding endlessly wouldn't be fun.

I mean, there were problems. Without a spending cap, some people rocketed away to the point that there were several players with over 1k CP before the spending caps were implemented.

Once the caps did come in, that became the new, "level cap," that a lot of people viewed as mandatory for "true endgame," even though the entire system was designed to subvert that.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Skill points are specific to a character. If EVERYTHING that SOMEONE thinks is boring is made account wide, then why bother with a leveling system?

Except, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about specific systems that are... let's say, "without repetitive entertainment value." It's not that collecting skyshards is boring, it's that once you've done it a couple times, (and I do mean collect them all), the novelty factor starts to wear out.

At least with Lorebooks, they do have multiple potential locations, so you can stumble across one in the wrong place as a nice surprise. You don't get that if you're using an addon, or looking up guide, but an attempt was made.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Why bother with progression systems at all?

At that point, the important question to ask is, "which systems improve the player's experience, and which do not?"

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Just make a lobby based adventure game with character archetypes like Team Fortress 2.

Amusingly, DCUO has this as an optional mode. So, someone did. And... it's not that great.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I wonder why they dont make a PvE version of Overwatch? Maybe because it would be boring as hell?

Blizarrd did. Apparently the dayjob element was what dragged down the experience. You were creating your own superhero, but you also were expected to do stuff as your alter ego.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

This is an RPG.

In 2019, that classification has become so vague as to be meaningless. Dark Souls is an RPG. Far Cry 5 has RPG-elements. Destiny is an RPG. The Division is an RPG. The XCOM reboot and XCOM 2 could be called Tactical RPGs. Everything in the Immersive Sim sub-genre is an RPG.

ESO is an RPG, but everything after having a basic progression system, is up in the air.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Progression systems and character specialization are important aspects of the RPG genre.

And yet, the last two single player games from Bethesda Game Studios eschewed this entire concept, in favor of temporary focuses that could eventually be leveled past.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Skill points, skyshards, lorebooks, and yes, some grinding are the ways that this game facilitates those mechanisms.

Currently. Sort of. Skyshards and Lorebooks are collectibles. There's compelling reasons for Lorebooks to be per character (again, fresh characters with Meteor would be a bad situation.)

However, the actual purpose of skyshards is to get you to explore the world. Look at the cryptic hints in the achievement. They're out there, and the team wants you to poke around looking for them. They're there to encourage you to take in the sights.

In a lot of ways, skyshards really are one shot. Coming back later will never provoke exactly the same kind of reaction as your first trip there. (This is ignoring a few shards that are very poorly positioned.) Sometimes you have to poke around an old ruin, other times, there's a vista in front of you as you consume the shard. But, once you've seen that once, it'll be familiar the next. Encouraging players to chase the shards repeatedly does a disservice to the system. Not a huge one, but in small ways.

Should skill points be account wide? I don't think so.

Should skyshards? Maybe.

Should lorebooks? Probably not. Because that's a skill line unlock you're forcing. Though I do understand, and am sympathetic to the people who want all the guild lines to be account wide. I just don't agree with them.

Just because you think it is boring or pointless doesn't mean that the alternative you are presenting is better. First, you're arguing for this change based of the mistaken belief that everyone needs all of them to play the game. It has been established that as long as you're not sitting in one place grinding mobs to 50, you should have enough books and skyshards at max level to be viable for end game with minimal preparation.

Second, you are focusing too intently on skyshards. I'm certain the intent was NOT for players to use a 3rd party guide to go on a personal quest to pick up all skyshards one after another. Yeah - that's going to be boring as hell just running from one skyshard to the next. You're supposed to pick them up while you're doing the quest content and zone exploration.

No. The development team does not need to bend over backwards to implement a change like this because you and some others insist on trying to play "efficiently" by powering through 50 levels as quickly as possible then opening a guide and doing nothing else other than hunting down 143 skyshards over the span of a few hours.

The game is fine. If anything, it rewards people effectively for playing the open world content and punishes people for ignoring that content for the sake of "efficiency".

Okay so you are basically saying there is only 1 way to play this game and it is your way, glad we established that.

Now let's talk about all the different ways to actually play the game. (And you can't say people shouldn't play these ways why you ask? Because zos hasn't removed them as options from the game to gain experience from. If they didn't want it as a way to xp they would have removed xp gain from places and forced xp only through quests like you are insisting here.)

Quests- after the first play through some people really could care less and press skip as fast as possible to get through it. And on top of that it gives very small amounts of experience.

Cyrodil- some people only like open world pvp and you gain experience in there.

Battlegrounds- you can spam them to level up and you even get a daily random that gives a nice chunk of xp.

Dungeons- you can spam them or you can que for the random daily for a huge xp reward.

Dolmains- you can play with as many people as you want here and you gain decent experience.

Grinding- you can play with 1 other person for maximum results and it is by far the fastest way to gain xp.

Xp scrolls/events- right now people are getting 100% xp for free. If the event isn't up they sell scrolls in the crown store.

So in fact you are wrong that your way is the correct way to play the game. People that only like pvp are forced to run pve for gear and monster sets. Pve players have to run some form of pvp to get moves.

I don't get why you want people that enjoy things not to play them because you don't think it is correct? Did you make the game or did zos? Because last I checked if zos wanted the game to strikly be quest based then they would remove all other xp options from the game.

All people want are quality of life changes in some form so they don't have to spend hours grinding things they have no interest in after ready doing it once.

Pve players use to cry about how hard it was to get vigor and caltrops because it was "to much of a grind in content they hated" and the xp for the skill lines got nerfed making it so you can have it in 3 hours if you join a Zerg. And that is actual content.......

What people want is to not go to place x hit button rinse and repeat. It is not hard content but it will surely put you to sleep trying to do it. Zos cares about $$$$ and they lose money when people don't make new toons because that's less stuff bought from their crown store (toon slot and xp scrolls). In the end that means less money for zos to create new content and keep the game alive meaning it dies eventually, quality of life stuff only helps the game keep running

I never said there was only my way to play, or that there is only 1 way to play. I said that focusing your time specifically on collecting skyshards is incredibly boring and you deserve to bored if you're doing that.

Whatever silly excuses you use to justify that behavior are on you. It especially does not mean that the game needs to be streamlined, dumbed down, made more accessible, or otherwise changed to cater to your proclivities.

I have pretty much everything I need in this game lol. You do know that after doing tedious boring stuff on my 8 toons is the reason I won't pay for another even though I want more. You know who that ultimately hurts? Zos because that's money they are missing. Guess who else? Every player that plays this game. You want less lag? You want more content? You want more quests? More skins? You see less money zos has the less they put into the game it is how a business works my friend.

You also do know if skyshards were account bound maybe just maybe you would have more people that want to try to tank, or heal right? You ever been in a group making a trial where they are having trouble getting people? Well if the game was more alt friendly then this problem wouldn't exist as easily. Each alt needs gear meaning they run more content to make the mmo aspect of pve run faster and better. The way it's set up now is no wonder why people can't form a group fast and yet people sit here and say this would break the game. CP broke low level gameplay long ago and you get 810 CP right at level 1.........

pieratsos · March 2019

Tandor wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »

Mages guild books is how you level the mages guild skill line. If you're going to make that account wide and make every character start off with the same amount of books/level, then do the same for fighters guild/daedra and undead killed. In fact, do the same for dark brotherhood and thieves guild because who wants to to grind through contracts and heists and sacraments to level those? And also, why not max out the psijic skill line too so we don't have to hunt down rifts again and again and again? In fact, once you've done everything on one character just make EVERYTHING available on all future characters. Titles. Achievements. Remove pvp alliances because why not? Max those out once we've maxed all the pvp skill lines out for one character. Remove any and all challenge or grind from the game because that's what mmo's are all about. This is a game. We shouldn't have to WORK to become the best there ever was at any given thing on any given class or build.
</sarcasm>

Not our fault skyhards/lorebooks/psijic are anti-gamplay braindead mechanics....that dont involve any gameplay.

Once you finally figure that out....maybe youll have somethign wortwhile to say, shyshards should have ALWAYS been account wide and mage guild/psijic tied to questlines just like "world" skill line with main quest.

Achievements too should have ALWAYS been account wide.

Skyshards and lorebooks are only anti-gameplay braindead mechanics to those who choose to develop characters through anti-gameplay braindead mechanics. If they're picked up as you play through a zone in the way it was intended to be played then they fall into place as an integral part of that gameplay.

So PVP, dungeons, trials or whatever are not intended ways to play the game. Only running around in zones doing the same quests for the tenth time is the intended way to play the game and integral part of gameplay. Wow just wow. Any other dumb argument to make? lol

Kidgangster101 · March 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »

Mages guild books is how you level the mages guild skill line. If you're going to make that account wide and make every character start off with the same amount of books/level, then do the same for fighters guild/daedra and undead killed. In fact, do the same for dark brotherhood and thieves guild because who wants to to grind through contracts and heists and sacraments to level those? And also, why not max out the psijic skill line too so we don't have to hunt down rifts again and again and again? In fact, once you've done everything on one character just make EVERYTHING available on all future characters. Titles. Achievements. Remove pvp alliances because why not? Max those out once we've maxed all the pvp skill lines out for one character. Remove any and all challenge or grind from the game because that's what mmo's are all about. This is a game. We shouldn't have to WORK to become the best there ever was at any given thing on any given class or build.
</sarcasm>

Not our fault skyhards/lorebooks/psijic are anti-gamplay braindead mechanics....that dont involve any gameplay.

Once you finally figure that out....maybe youll have somethign wortwhile to say, shyshards should have ALWAYS been account wide and mage guild/psijic tied to questlines just like "world" skill line with main quest.

Achievements too should have ALWAYS been account wide.

Skyshards and lorebooks are only anti-gameplay braindead mechanics to those who choose to develop characters through anti-gameplay braindead mechanics. If they're picked up as you play through a zone in the way it was intended to be played then they fall into place as an integral part of that gameplay.

So PVP, dungeons, trials or whatever are not intended ways to play the game. Only running around in zones doing the same quests for the tenth time is the intended way to play the game and integral part of gameplay. Wow just wow. Any other dumb argument to make? lol

Yep this is not a single player game. It's actual intentions are to get you in a group to play with others because it is a MMMORPG if you want to play alone doing the same quests over and over and over again then maybe you should play any other elder scrolls and stay away from the online version?

MikaHR · March 2019

Tandor wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »

Mages guild books is how you level the mages guild skill line. If you're going to make that account wide and make every character start off with the same amount of books/level, then do the same for fighters guild/daedra and undead killed. In fact, do the same for dark brotherhood and thieves guild because who wants to to grind through contracts and heists and sacraments to level those? And also, why not max out the psijic skill line too so we don't have to hunt down rifts again and again and again? In fact, once you've done everything on one character just make EVERYTHING available on all future characters. Titles. Achievements. Remove pvp alliances because why not? Max those out once we've maxed all the pvp skill lines out for one character. Remove any and all challenge or grind from the game because that's what mmo's are all about. This is a game. We shouldn't have to WORK to become the best there ever was at any given thing on any given class or build.
</sarcasm>

Not our fault skyhards/lorebooks/psijic are anti-gamplay braindead mechanics....that dont involve any gameplay.

Once you finally figure that out....maybe youll have somethign wortwhile to say, shyshards should have ALWAYS been account wide and mage guild/psijic tied to questlines just like "world" skill line with main quest.

Achievements too should have ALWAYS been account wide.

Skyshards and lorebooks are only anti-gameplay braindead mechanics to those who choose to develop characters through anti-gameplay braindead mechanics. If they're picked up as you play through a zone in the way it was intended to be played then they fall into place as an integral part of that gameplay.

Wut? Do explain to us in great detail how going to spot x and pressing "Interact" button is not anti-gameplay and braindead. It is not integral to anything it is as braindead as it gets.

And ESOs sales pitch was "play how you WANT", not "play how random Tandor wants to play"

srfrogg23 · March 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I never said there was only my way to play, or that there is only 1 way to play. I said that focusing your time specifically on collecting skyshards is incredibly boring and you deserve to bored if you're doing that.

Well, that's a mistake. As a game designer you should never seek to bore your player. You may attempt to restrict what a player does by making a process more tedious, but a bored player will look for other ways to entertain themselves. At that point, the best you can hope is that they'll only be looking at websites while waiting for load screens. At worst, they will simply fire up a different game and never return. Actively punishing a player with tedious activities is behavior that should be considered very carefully.

Also worth remembering, the Skyshards grind is supposed to be even more punishing than it is in practice. We're not supposed to have maps on hand that point us to the right locations, or addons that plant the shards on our map. Now, those are acceptable, but we are supposed to wander around aimlessly, interpreting cryptic riddles, looking for the things. Some of the boredom has already been alleviated. It was supposed to be even more punishing in its original iteration.

As with a number of mechanics in the game, it reflects another era of the game's design. One that doesn't fit as well with the game that exists today.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Whatever silly excuses you use to justify that behavior are on you. It especially does not mean that the game needs to be streamlined, dumbed down, made more accessible, or otherwise changed to cater to your proclivities.

Wow, you broke out the dictionary for this. It would have been nice if you'd picked some appropriate arguments.

So, let's take these in no particular order:

If the game is not accessible, that's a problem. Full stop. If you're making a game, your primary source of income is from selling that game to players. Making a game obtuse or inaccessible is an option, but it's a risky one. In the case of a game that also serves as a recurring revenue stream, an inaccessible game is a poorly design choice.

ZOS has expressed interest in making the game more accessible over the years. The guild trader system, the group finder... hell, One Tamriel stands as a monument to increased accessibility.

For ESO to thrive, it does need to be as accessible as reasonably possible. At that point, picking a random collectible and screaming, "THIS IS THE HILL I WILL DIE ON!" is a little peculiar.

Dumbing a game down is when the intricacies of the game are stripped out in the name of making the game more accessible. For example, the removal of a player inventory in Bioshock was considered "dumbing it down" from System Shock 2's system.

There is no real example of ESO being dumbed down. You might be able to point to the overhaul of the Provisioning system, or the introduction of One Tamriel as examples of this, but those didn't really dumb down the experience, they simply took pain points and dealt with them.

Which is the other term you chucked out as a pejorative: Streamlining. Streamlining is where you look at issues with a game, things that interfere with the flow of the experience, and you identify and implement ways to improve it. You deal with issues that disrupt the experience.

In point of fact, "streamlining," is improving a game. Now, I know, a lot of developers do say, "we streamlined this," as code for taking out choices or options. That can happen. If ESO chose to do away with skill points, attribute points, and skill lines entirely, then locking you to specific skills on your bar based on your equipped gear, that would streamline builds, but it would also dumb down the experience.

As mentioned above, ESO has undergone some significant streamlining. The huge example is One Tamriel. Before that, if you were in different alliances and wanted to do PvE content together, you needed to either group into the same dungeon, or make sure your characters were roughly the same level, roughly in range for the content you wanted to do, and were both the same Alliance. Now, if my friend picks up the game, I can jump over there, regardless of character, and give them a hand. That's streamlining.

Collecting Skyshards is a pain point. There's no engaging gameplay decision involved in locating or using them. Certainly not after you've found them the first time. It's simply busywork. So, within that perspective, changing that system radically would be a QoL improvement.

Also, I realize you may have missed this, but, a "proclivity" is an innate impulse. You're probably familiar with it from people referring to someone's "sexual proclivities," which is a clever(ish) way to say that someone's sexual drive is unnatural and perverse. All of this is, not exactly, relevant to a discussion on ESO, (or, at least, I dearly hope it's not applicable.)

I think pvp is boring. I have caltrops on one of my characters. I want caltrops on all of my characters, though. The alliance war skill lines need to be account wide so I can have caltrops on every new character without ever having to pvp ever again.

This needs to happen because I dont like pvp and if Zos doesn't do it they will lose money because I said so.

I don't want to level legerdemain anymore either. Maybe we should add that to the list, because I think it's boring...

Kidgangster101 · March 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I never said there was only my way to play, or that there is only 1 way to play. I said that focusing your time specifically on collecting skyshards is incredibly boring and you deserve to bored if you're doing that.

Well, that's a mistake. As a game designer you should never seek to bore your player. You may attempt to restrict what a player does by making a process more tedious, but a bored player will look for other ways to entertain themselves. At that point, the best you can hope is that they'll only be looking at websites while waiting for load screens. At worst, they will simply fire up a different game and never return. Actively punishing a player with tedious activities is behavior that should be considered very carefully.

Also worth remembering, the Skyshards grind is supposed to be even more punishing than it is in practice. We're not supposed to have maps on hand that point us to the right locations, or addons that plant the shards on our map. Now, those are acceptable, but we are supposed to wander around aimlessly, interpreting cryptic riddles, looking for the things. Some of the boredom has already been alleviated. It was supposed to be even more punishing in its original iteration.

As with a number of mechanics in the game, it reflects another era of the game's design. One that doesn't fit as well with the game that exists today.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Whatever silly excuses you use to justify that behavior are on you. It especially does not mean that the game needs to be streamlined, dumbed down, made more accessible, or otherwise changed to cater to your proclivities.

Wow, you broke out the dictionary for this. It would have been nice if you'd picked some appropriate arguments.

So, let's take these in no particular order:

If the game is not accessible, that's a problem. Full stop. If you're making a game, your primary source of income is from selling that game to players. Making a game obtuse or inaccessible is an option, but it's a risky one. In the case of a game that also serves as a recurring revenue stream, an inaccessible game is a poorly design choice.

ZOS has expressed interest in making the game more accessible over the years. The guild trader system, the group finder... hell, One Tamriel stands as a monument to increased accessibility.

For ESO to thrive, it does need to be as accessible as reasonably possible. At that point, picking a random collectible and screaming, "THIS IS THE HILL I WILL DIE ON!" is a little peculiar.

Dumbing a game down is when the intricacies of the game are stripped out in the name of making the game more accessible. For example, the removal of a player inventory in Bioshock was considered "dumbing it down" from System Shock 2's system.

There is no real example of ESO being dumbed down. You might be able to point to the overhaul of the Provisioning system, or the introduction of One Tamriel as examples of this, but those didn't really dumb down the experience, they simply took pain points and dealt with them.

Which is the other term you chucked out as a pejorative: Streamlining. Streamlining is where you look at issues with a game, things that interfere with the flow of the experience, and you identify and implement ways to improve it. You deal with issues that disrupt the experience.

In point of fact, "streamlining," is improving a game. Now, I know, a lot of developers do say, "we streamlined this," as code for taking out choices or options. That can happen. If ESO chose to do away with skill points, attribute points, and skill lines entirely, then locking you to specific skills on your bar based on your equipped gear, that would streamline builds, but it would also dumb down the experience.

As mentioned above, ESO has undergone some significant streamlining. The huge example is One Tamriel. Before that, if you were in different alliances and wanted to do PvE content together, you needed to either group into the same dungeon, or make sure your characters were roughly the same level, roughly in range for the content you wanted to do, and were both the same Alliance. Now, if my friend picks up the game, I can jump over there, regardless of character, and give them a hand. That's streamlining.

Collecting Skyshards is a pain point. There's no engaging gameplay decision involved in locating or using them. Certainly not after you've found them the first time. It's simply busywork. So, within that perspective, changing that system radically would be a QoL improvement.

Also, I realize you may have missed this, but, a "proclivity" is an innate impulse. You're probably familiar with it from people referring to someone's "sexual proclivities," which is a clever(ish) way to say that someone's sexual drive is unnatural and perverse. All of this is, not exactly, relevant to a discussion on ESO, (or, at least, I dearly hope it's not applicable.)

I think pvp is boring. I have caltrops on one of my characters. I want caltrops on all of my characters, though. The alliance war skill lines need to be account wide so I can have caltrops on every new character without ever having to pvp ever again.

This needs to happen because I dont like pvp and if Zos doesn't do it they will lose money because I said so.

I don't want to level legerdemain anymore either. Maybe we should add that to the list, because I think it's boring...

Lololol be glad they nerfed the skill lines in pvp for you because it only takes 2-3 hours to get now compared to what it use to be

maybe they should bring it back up to make people have to pvp more!

There is a huge difference between the 2-3 hours it takes in battlegrounds than the 25+ hours it takes to grind skyshards/mages guild/ psijic. Just saying they already nerfed pvp skill line into the ground because pve players cried non stop about the grind.

eso_lags · March 2019

Tandor wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

Zos should just stop being lazy and give console players a lorebook and skyshard map in the base game. But zos is out of touch with the game, community, and especially the console community.

And PC players shouldn't even comment negatively on this because they have the add ons, which make it 10000 times easier, so they could never understand. .

This PC player is perfectly entitled to comment negatively on this. I have never had a single addon installed, and I never will as I have no need for them. Like console players, however, I do have access to the clues in the journal as to the locations involved so far as the skyshards are concerned, and as the clear intention of the developers is presumably that people should play the game rather than jump to the endgame (otherwise they would already have provided that option including especially for additional characters) the fact remains that players will come across the skyshards and lorebooks as they play the game - always assuming that after "X" number of characters they don't recall where they are anyway.

You are entitled to do as you like, I just said you shouldnt. Its ignorant. Its not matter of if you use them or not its a matter of one platform having the option and another platform not having the option. In the same exact game. PC has many advantages over console and if zos wanted to make money off of console then they should have been prepared to try to make things as even as possible. The lorebook and skyshard map, or at least compass, is huge.

If you dont use it then maybe you can understand it a bit, cool. But again you still have the option. People shouldnt judge others when they arent in their position. PC players have these options so they should understand why console players want these things account bound.

And its not easy to remember every skyshard and lorebook, but thats not even the issue here. I have 12 characters on console and 2 on PC i understand the difference in getting these things. Getting lorebooks and skyshards with the add on is a million times easier, no question. Its just something that should be available on all platforms. PC will always have advantages that cant be given to console but with something like this zos should have fixed it long ago. A map that can be toggled on and off would solve the issue. There are a thousand other add ons that greatly improve the QOL for PC players and most console players dont ask for those to be in the base game.