DPS parse - standard practice?

Grianasteri · March 2019

Hi,

With regards to DPS testing, what is the communities opinion regarding the following:

-Are there generally agreed standard dps test conditions?

-Should a dps test include the use of buffed food, dinks and potions?

-Should a dps test include the use of your ultimate abilities?

-Should a dps test include debuffing the target, either from colleagues or by ones own application?

-Should a certain size of target dummy be used for a valid dps parse?

Clearly with the above variables, one can obtain very different dps test results. Are there other variables one should be aware of or make use of? I would like to know the communities thoughts on dps test conditions, because depending on who you speak with, or what content provider you listen read/watch, there seems to be some variation in practice.

I look forward to hearing everyones thoughts. Thanks.

XxCaLxX · March 2019

In most cases in my experience you either do a self buffed parse or a parse with someone rebuffing Target. Use whatever you need to to get best results. 6 mil is what I consider to be best for results in self buffed parses. I always do self buffed parses with whatever food/drink I really use so I know what I’m actually hitting plus if I hit 45k then I know with group my dps will be even higher but there’s many ways to test and that’s why ppl usually list what conditions they used when parsing to compare with others using same conditions.

Browiseth · March 2019

- more or less
- yes
- yes
- debuffs are fine, preferably they should be applied by you but depending on the nature of the dps test it's accepted to involve other players
- 3 mil hp one is pretty standard

basically, for the dps test to be as accurate as possible, you need to be at your strongest/most buffed, but those buffs should only come from you, not other players. there's lots of different builds though, so some players rely entirely on other players applying certain debuffs

that's my understanding, anyway

zaria · March 2019

Standard for raid group qualifications is target is debuffed, some give orbs or shards.
Use of ulitmates is part of rotation.
Else buff food, spell power potions is standard but don't use expensive potions if you just practice rotation.

Some tests uses full raid buffs, but this is tests to compare races and classes not standard parses.

ghastley · March 2019

There's no single standard, so quote your results as e.g. "self-buffed on 3 mil dummy"

Yes, use food etc. because you would in real combat.
Yes to the ultimate for the same reasons
Buffing is Ok if you note the situation. Some builds are buff-dependent (e.g. for sustain, or to proc a set). If it's a buff you'd commonly receive, then it's a valid part of your test. You'd probably also want to test without, to find out just how dependent you are.
Use a dummy that will actually test your sustain ability. If you get to a point of needing to do heavy attacks to restore stam/mag then that affects dps. If you test on a dummy where your stam/mag decrease over time, and you're just outlasting them, it's not the "steady state" that makes your measurement meaningful.

T3hasiangod · March 2019

-Are there generally agreed standard dps test conditions?

Generally speaking, yes. There's a "least common denominator" condition. However, for each guild doing the testing, conditions may vary. I'll be talking about a solo self-buffed parse for the remainder of the questions.

-Should a dps test include the use of buffed food, dinks and potions?

Yes. These are used in trials, and as such are expected to be used. Two notable exceptions: Ghastly Eye Bowl and Lava Foot Soup-and-Saltrice. These foods are known as "parse foods", as they provide max resources and regen without any health. These foods are considered to be acceptable for solo parses, as they closely resemble getting Orbs on cooldown with blue food. However, there is one exception to using these foods (see below)

-Should a dps test include the use of your ultimate abilities?

Yes, see above.

-Should a dps test include debuffing the target, either from colleagues or by ones own application?

This varies. Usually, it will be your own application. However, having an outside Ele Drain is usually acceptable as a "least common denominator". Orbs may or may not be provided, depending on the guild. If Orbs are provided, then there's usually an additional stipulation that you cannot use Ghastly Eye Bowl or Lava Foot Soup-and-Saltrice as your food, as that would provide unrealistically high regen.

-Should a certain size of target dummy be used for a valid dps parse?

Only 6 million dummy parses are accepted by most raiding guilds. The common consensus is that a 3 million parse is not indicative of ability to sustain.

Clearly with the above variables, one can obtain very different dps test results. Are there other variables one should be aware of or make use of? I would like to know the communities thoughts on dps test conditions, because depending on who you speak with, or what content provider you listen read/watch, there seems to be some variation in practice.

Some guilds will provide raid buffs for their DPS testing. The usual buffs and debuffs you get are those they can reliably provide in a trial scenario. Depending on the guild, this includes: Minor Berserk, Minor Vulnerability, Warhorn, Major Courage, Infused Crusher, and Orbs. Some guilds may additionally provide Minor Breach/Fracture and Alkosh, though those debuffs are usually not going to be reliable in trials (i.e. it's hard to get above 90 percent for many groups).

Some guilds may adjust parses to account for Minor Vulnerability uptime from a Shock enchant or Elemental Weapon. This can be easily done with the following formula: DPS/(1 + .08 * uptime). For example, if you do 55k on a magNB with 43 percent Minor Vulnerability uptime, your adjusted DPS would be 55000/(1 + .08 * 0.43) = 53171. However, this is relatively uncommon.

Grianasteri · March 2019

Thanks for all the help folks.

The thread responses have confirmed most of my thinking and current dps parse practice, has been correct.

I shant be visiting a 6m dummy any time soon, I have a life to get on with lol! 3m is certainly enough to test sustain, so I will stick with that.

Kind regards,
GA

Olupajmibanan · March 2019

The most accurate test you can get is on Target Centurion, Robust with 2 healers, 2 tanks and 7 other DDs.

Minor Vulnerability, Minor Berserk and other group buffs/debuffs tend to inflate solo parses a lot. That's why you should enter a scenario where every group buff/debuff is provided.

kathandira · March 2019

Grianasteri wrote: »

Hi,

With regards to DPS testing, what is the communities opinion regarding the following:

-Are there generally agreed standard dps test conditions?

-Should a dps test include the use of buffed food, dinks and potions?

-Should a dps test include the use of your ultimate abilities?

-Should a dps test include debuffing the target, either from colleagues or by ones own application?

-Should a certain size of target dummy be used for a valid dps parse?

Clearly with the above variables, one can obtain very different dps test results. Are there other variables one should be aware of or make use of? I would like to know the communities thoughts on dps test conditions, because depending on who you speak with, or what content provider you listen read/watch, there seems to be some variation in practice.

I look forward to hearing everyones thoughts. Thanks.

The way I test is as so.

Full food and potion buffs.
Preload self buffs
5x without Ultimate
5x with Ultimate

5x on Precursor
5x on 3m Skeleton

Never with another player present

Grianasteri · March 2019

kathandira wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

Hi,

With regards to DPS testing, what is the communities opinion regarding the following:

-Are there generally agreed standard dps test conditions?

-Should a dps test include the use of buffed food, dinks and potions?

-Should a dps test include the use of your ultimate abilities?

-Should a dps test include debuffing the target, either from colleagues or by ones own application?

-Should a certain size of target dummy be used for a valid dps parse?

Clearly with the above variables, one can obtain very different dps test results. Are there other variables one should be aware of or make use of? I would like to know the communities thoughts on dps test conditions, because depending on who you speak with, or what content provider you listen read/watch, there seems to be some variation in practice.

I look forward to hearing everyones thoughts. Thanks.

The way I test is as so.

Full food and potion buffs.
Preload self buffs
5x without Ultimate
5x with Ultimate

5x on Precursor
5x on 3m Skeleton

Never with another player present

Oh that is very thorough indeed! It is also interesting that you use the precursor and the 3m, I can see why because results re often quite different between the two.

kathandira · March 2019

Grianasteri wrote: »

Oh that is very thorough indeed! It is also interesting that you use the precursor and the 3m, I can see why because results re often quite different between the two.

Indeed. It lets me know the difference in rotation between a long and short durations.

I even attempted to place multiple Precursors together to get an AoE parse, but sadly on Console without mods, I get separate read outs per training dummy = /

T3hasiangod · March 2019

Grianasteri wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

Hi,

With regards to DPS testing, what is the communities opinion regarding the following:

-Are there generally agreed standard dps test conditions?

-Should a dps test include the use of buffed food, dinks and potions?

-Should a dps test include the use of your ultimate abilities?

-Should a dps test include debuffing the target, either from colleagues or by ones own application?

-Should a certain size of target dummy be used for a valid dps parse?

Clearly with the above variables, one can obtain very different dps test results. Are there other variables one should be aware of or make use of? I would like to know the communities thoughts on dps test conditions, because depending on who you speak with, or what content provider you listen read/watch, there seems to be some variation in practice.

I look forward to hearing everyones thoughts. Thanks.

The way I test is as so.

Full food and potion buffs.
Preload self buffs
5x without Ultimate
5x with Ultimate

5x on Precursor
5x on 3m Skeleton

Never with another player present

Oh that is very thorough indeed! It is also interesting that you use the precursor and the 3m, I can see why because results re often quite different between the two.

Do not use the precursor for DPS parses. It tells you literally nothing about your DPS. I can kill a precursor in less than 5 seconds. What can that tell you about my DPS? Literally nothing.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2019

Grianasteri wrote: »

Hi,

With regards to DPS testing, what is the communities opinion regarding the following:

1. -Are there generally agreed standard dps test conditions?

2. -Should a dps test include the use of buffed food, dinks and potions?

3. -Should a dps test include the use of your ultimate abilities?

4. -Should a dps test include debuffing the target, either from colleagues or by ones own application?

5. -Should a certain size of target dummy be used for a valid dps parse?

Clearly with the above variables, one can obtain very different dps test results. Are there other variables one should be aware of or make use of? I would like to know the communities thoughts on dps test conditions, because depending on who you speak with, or what content provider you listen read/watch, there seems to be some variation in practice.

I look forward to hearing everyones thoughts. Thanks.

Added numbers to make it easier.

1. Not really. The most important thing here is to be transparent on what you are doing if you are sharing your DPS with others (especially if it is some sort of guild requirement). If you say self buffed, then it should be self buffed. If you have a tank or healer giving you help, then state what they are doing. Context matters.

2. Definitely. If you are fighting anything in this game, you should be using food/drink, dummies included. You should try to use the same food you plan to use in actual content, but there is also what we call Parse food that is pretty common for parsing. Its not unreasonable to use parse food, because the reality is that your sustain will always be better in a group so nothing wrong with trying to simulate that to some degree.

3. OF course. They are part of your rotation. Never seen anybody cry foul on a test because someone used an ulti. And for some classes like NB, using really low costs ultimates effectively takes some practice and skill.

4. Similar to 1, you really should try to simulate your environment you plan to play in, and the most important thing is transparency. Major Breach and Fracture are definitely buffs you want for a realistic parse. If I run a self buffed test on a magic class, I make room for ele drain (typically goes where my shield would be). On stamina classes, some classes get major fracture while some dont. If you are playing a class without it, it becomes very hard to compare results across classes, and you will ALWAYS have fracture in a group. IMO, nothing wrong with having a tank give this to you. Taken to the extreme, people like Liko try to standardize half a dozen buffs they expect to get in a trial, so you remove any inherent advantages/disadvantages when comparing class to class. But again, I have never seen Liko post one of his ridiculous OP parses without clearly stating what he is getting from his group, so no issues with what he is doing. In fact, it's the gold standard.

5. Most people will say 6 million is the standard. There is NOTHING wrong with practicing on a 3 million if you are solo. Assuming your rotation is reasonably self sustaining and consistent, you just wont see a huge difference in DPS between 3 and 6 mil. People frown on 3 Millions parses, because they are easier to cheese (use a non realistic rotation that basically lands you tapped of resources at the moment the dummy dies). Assuming I am using a trial build and doing self buffed sustainable parses, I usually see a difference of less than 1-2k between the two.

*The precursor dummy is an absolute joke, however. This is more a measure of potential burst damage than DPS. I cant even get through a full rotation on one. If you are trying to measure DPS, nothing useful can be gained from this thing.

kathandira · March 2019

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

Hi,

With regards to DPS testing, what is the communities opinion regarding the following:

-Are there generally agreed standard dps test conditions?

-Should a dps test include the use of buffed food, dinks and potions?

-Should a dps test include the use of your ultimate abilities?

-Should a dps test include debuffing the target, either from colleagues or by ones own application?

-Should a certain size of target dummy be used for a valid dps parse?

Clearly with the above variables, one can obtain very different dps test results. Are there other variables one should be aware of or make use of? I would like to know the communities thoughts on dps test conditions, because depending on who you speak with, or what content provider you listen read/watch, there seems to be some variation in practice.

I look forward to hearing everyones thoughts. Thanks.

The way I test is as so.

Full food and potion buffs.
Preload self buffs
5x without Ultimate
5x with Ultimate

5x on Precursor
5x on 3m Skeleton

Never with another player present

Oh that is very thorough indeed! It is also interesting that you use the precursor and the 3m, I can see why because results re often quite different between the two.

Do not use the precursor for DPS parses. It tells you literally nothing about your DPS. I can kill a precursor in less than 5 seconds. What can that tell you about my DPS? Literally nothing.

Shoot, if you kill it in 5 seconds, yeah sure. At that point you should only be on the 6m or 24m.

But not everyone is in the top 1% of dps. Matter of fact, 99% of players aren't pulling those numbers.

Agenericname · March 2019

kathandira wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

Hi,

With regards to DPS testing, what is the communities opinion regarding the following:

-Are there generally agreed standard dps test conditions?

-Should a dps test include the use of buffed food, dinks and potions?

-Should a dps test include the use of your ultimate abilities?

-Should a dps test include debuffing the target, either from colleagues or by ones own application?

-Should a certain size of target dummy be used for a valid dps parse?

Clearly with the above variables, one can obtain very different dps test results. Are there other variables one should be aware of or make use of? I would like to know the communities thoughts on dps test conditions, because depending on who you speak with, or what content provider you listen read/watch, there seems to be some variation in practice.

I look forward to hearing everyones thoughts. Thanks.

The way I test is as so.

Full food and potion buffs.
Preload self buffs
5x without Ultimate
5x with Ultimate

5x on Precursor
5x on 3m Skeleton

Never with another player present

Oh that is very thorough indeed! It is also interesting that you use the precursor and the 3m, I can see why because results re often quite different between the two.

Do not use the precursor for DPS parses. It tells you literally nothing about your DPS. I can kill a precursor in less than 5 seconds. What can that tell you about my DPS? Literally nothing.

Shoot, if you kill it in 5 seconds, yeah sure. At that point you should only be on the 6m or 24m.

But not everyone is in the top 1% of dps. Matter of fact, 99% of players aren't pulling those numbers.

Probably not, but the precursor is small enough that it is drastically affected by variations in crit and won't yield consistent results. It would be much harder to use it as tool of measurement for the purpose of self improvement without consistent results.

kathandira · March 2019

Agenericname wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

Hi,

With regards to DPS testing, what is the communities opinion regarding the following:

-Are there generally agreed standard dps test conditions?

-Should a dps test include the use of buffed food, dinks and potions?

-Should a dps test include the use of your ultimate abilities?

-Should a dps test include debuffing the target, either from colleagues or by ones own application?

-Should a certain size of target dummy be used for a valid dps parse?

Clearly with the above variables, one can obtain very different dps test results. Are there other variables one should be aware of or make use of? I would like to know the communities thoughts on dps test conditions, because depending on who you speak with, or what content provider you listen read/watch, there seems to be some variation in practice.

I look forward to hearing everyones thoughts. Thanks.

The way I test is as so.

Full food and potion buffs.
Preload self buffs
5x without Ultimate
5x with Ultimate

5x on Precursor
5x on 3m Skeleton

Never with another player present

Oh that is very thorough indeed! It is also interesting that you use the precursor and the 3m, I can see why because results re often quite different between the two.

Do not use the precursor for DPS parses. It tells you literally nothing about your DPS. I can kill a precursor in less than 5 seconds. What can that tell you about my DPS? Literally nothing.

Shoot, if you kill it in 5 seconds, yeah sure. At that point you should only be on the 6m or 24m.

But not everyone is in the top 1% of dps. Matter of fact, 99% of players aren't pulling those numbers.

Probably not, but the precursor is small enough that it is drastically affected by variations in crit and won't yield consistent results. It would be much harder to use it as tool of measurement for the purpose of self improvement without consistent results.

That is very true. There isn't enough time even at low DPS numbers to have a full ramp up of DPS, which often leads to inconsistent results.

I use it mostly to test out partial rotations. Such as AoE to simulate a trash pack. I use the 3m to simulate bosses.

El_Borracho · March 2019

Some people cheese their parses by wearing monster helms that most would not wear in PVE. I think that is a mistake.

My belief is that the parse should be your best, normal rotation so it accurately reflects your best possible damage output, in the gear and setup you plan to run.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2019

El_Borracho wrote: »

Some people cheese their parses by wearing monster helms that most would not wear in PVE. I think that is a mistake.

My belief is that the parse should be your best, normal rotation so it accurately reflects your best possible damage output, in the gear and setup you plan to run.

Curious what you are referring to. Before you say Zaan, lots of people, myself included, wear it most of the time in actual content.

starkerealm · March 2019

Browiseth wrote: »

- 3 mil hp one is pretty standard

No. The standard, at least on PC, is the 6mil. The justification that's usually cited is to ensure you can actually sustain your DPS, though that's honestly a somewhat dubious claim, since the 3mil will also require that.

So, this is a long way to say that it's 6mil, but it's a basically arbitrary standard.

Bladerunner1 · March 2019

kathandira wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

Oh that is very thorough indeed! It is also interesting that you use the precursor and the 3m, I can see why because results re often quite different between the two.

I even attempted to place multiple Precursors together to get an AoE parse, but sadly on Console without mods, I get separate read outs per training dummy = /

It's still good enough info regardless, perhaps you could take the median DPS readout or the last dummy to fall as an indicator for AOE DPS.

I use precursors to answer questions like what's the exact difference between steel tornado and power extraction. Or how much more AOE can be had by spamming steel tornado on top of caltrops and maelstrom bow endless hail. Or are lightning heavy attacks worth weaving on trash, and by how much. A real measurement beats he said/she said talk any day of the week.

*Edit* and how far spread out can enemies be standing to have certain AOE effects applied.

starkerealm · March 2019

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Some people cheese their parses by wearing monster helms that most would not wear in PVE. I think that is a mistake.

My belief is that the parse should be your best, normal rotation so it accurately reflects your best possible damage output, in the gear and setup you plan to run.

Curious what you are referring to. Before you say Zaan, lots of people, myself included, where it most of the time in actual content.

There are sets like Reli or Siroria that perform extremely well on parses, but are much more challenging to employ in a live fight. Parse cheese builds are a real thing.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Some people cheese their parses by wearing monster helms that most would not wear in PVE. I think that is a mistake.

My belief is that the parse should be your best, normal rotation so it accurately reflects your best possible damage output, in the gear and setup you plan to run.

Curious what you are referring to. Before you say Zaan, lots of people, myself included, wear it most of the time in actual content.

There are sets like Reli or Siroria that perform extremely well on parses, but are much more challenging to employ in a live fight. Parse cheese builds are a real thing.

I am not saying you cant cheese a parse to some degree, but again, all my stam toons wear relequen, and all my mag toons wear siroria in 99% of PVE content. Also, these arent monster sets, which is what you said the first time. I just dont see how these sets in it of themselves make for cheese, if they are exactly what you are going to wear in a trial.

There are really 4-5 ways parses get cheesed.

1. Not being transparent with the buffs you are receiving.
2. Stacking ridiculously into penetration when self buffed. Theoretically you get to the pen cap in a good raid either way, but generally speaking if you take a raid build, switch to lover and stack some CP into pen, its going to inflate your parse self buffed on a dummy.
3. Using an unsustainable rotation. With combat metrics, you can measure the drain and regen of your primary resource. If they are more than about 200 points apart, your cheesing to some degree.
4. Wildy altering your rotation. This is most prevalent in executes, where basically people get really spammy with their executes, when in a real trial, they would likely be keeping up some other skills as well.
5. Not sure this is cheese in it of itself, but parse fishing. Basically doing a parse a hundred times, using the one where all the RNG from crit and that sort of thing lines up, and then proclaiming it as if you do it every time.

I just dont see how wearing the same thing you plan to wear in trials constitutes cheese.

starkerealm · March 2019

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I just dont see how wearing the same thing you plan to wear in trials constitutes cheese.

The problem with those two sets is management.

Reli is not an introductory set. In any content with boss lockout mechanics, it will perform as effectively as it will against a dummy. So, you have to spin it back up. Any fight with adds, and you're going to need to keep spinning it up. The set looks excellent on paper, and performs on a dummy, but can quickly get messy in live content.

Similar problem with Siroria. The set requires you to engage in carefully managed movement. If you can do that, great. If you can keep siroria spun up, more power to you. However, spinning it up on a dummy just means performing your rotation. Spinning it up in any content where you need to move, on the boss's schedule (which is to say, almost all DLC content at some point) the set will rapidly start to underperform, to the point that the wearer would perform better if they were simply running Juli.

This isn't an indictment of you. It's that most players who use those sets on dummies, cannot get the same kind of value out of them in live content. So both sets become parse cheese. A lot of damage that cannot be replicated in a dungeon or trial.

And, don't get me started on the players who use Reli in overland content. At that point, nothing will live long enough to fully spin up the set, and you'd be better off running VO.

T3hasiangod · March 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I just dont see how wearing the same thing you plan to wear in trials constitutes cheese.

The problem with those two sets is management.

Reli is not an introductory set. In any content with boss lockout mechanics, it will perform as effectively as it will against a dummy. So, you have to spin it back up. Any fight with adds, and you're going to need to keep spinning it up. The set looks excellent on paper, and performs on a dummy, but can quickly get messy in live content.

Similar problem with Siroria. The set requires you to engage in carefully managed movement. If you can do that, great. If you can keep siroria spun up, more power to you. However, spinning it up on a dummy just means performing your rotation. Spinning it up in any content where you need to move, on the boss's schedule (which is to say, almost all DLC content at some point) the set will rapidly start to underperform, to the point that the wearer would perform better if they were simply running Juli.

This isn't an indictment of you. It's that most players who use those sets on dummies, cannot get the same kind of value out of them in live content. So both sets become parse cheese. A lot of damage that cannot be replicated in a dungeon or trial.

And, don't get me started on the players who use Reli in overland content. At that point, nothing will live long enough to fully spin up the set, and you'd be better off running VO.

I have already demonstrated that with Perfect Siroria, you only need to average around 5 to 6 stacks to be as good as or better than a set like BSW. With Imperfect Siroria, that jumps up to 9 to 11 stacks, but is still easily manageable. I have played with DPS in vCR + 3 that use Siroria and maintain at least 10 stacks on average. It's simply a manner of actually knowing boss mechanics and timing your movements appropriately. I personally have used Siroria on many boss fights and have a fairly easy time managing to maintain that minimum 5 to 6 stack average.

Also, your argument concerning Relequen is pretty moot. Out of all the trials where you will realistically be bringing stamina (so all full trials), the only fights where Relequen may not be as strong as other sets are Twins in vMaw, Archcustodian in vHoF, and Triplets in vHoF.

There's a reason why a ton of end-game DPS are using both sets in trials. They are just that powerful, even in "live content". Can you swap them out? Sure. Will you lose some DPS? Most likely, depending on what you're swapping it out for.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I just dont see how wearing the same thing you plan to wear in trials constitutes cheese.

The problem with those two sets is management.

Reli is not an introductory set. In any content with boss lockout mechanics, it will perform as effectively as it will against a dummy. So, you have to spin it back up. Any fight with adds, and you're going to need to keep spinning it up. The set looks excellent on paper, and performs on a dummy, but can quickly get messy in live content.

Similar problem with Siroria. The set requires you to engage in carefully managed movement. If you can do that, great. If you can keep siroria spun up, more power to you. However, spinning it up on a dummy just means performing your rotation. Spinning it up in any content where you need to move, on the boss's schedule (which is to say, almost all DLC content at some point) the set will rapidly start to underperform, to the point that the wearer would perform better if they were simply running Juli.

This isn't an indictment of you. It's that most players who use those sets on dummies, cannot get the same kind of value out of them in live content. So both sets become parse cheese. A lot of damage that cannot be replicated in a dungeon or trial.

And, don't get me started on the players who use Reli in overland content. At that point, nothing will live long enough to fully spin up the set, and you'd be better off running VO.

I guess I get what you are saying, but that is true of almost everything regarding your parse. Everything is harder in actual content from managing your potion and ultimate use, managing your buffs and debuffs, managing your dots, maintaining an effective weave (especially with lag), and with some sets, managing them specifically as well.

Your parse is of course a reflection of what you can do in an ideal set of circumstances, and real content is not always ideal. But I just think it makes you sound a little silly (sorry dont have a better term here) to suggest that the Meta damage sets for the last year are cheese in it of themselves. The other thing to note is that assuming you are talking self buffed dummy parses, you will likely pull more (not less) in actual content because you are getting group buffs on any fight where you can stack and whack, which frankly is a majority of them. Sure, some fights have too many mechanics so you are never going to get a decent parse (if boss goes invulnerable for example), but these arent the fights people tend use as a metric anyway.

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

I'm for 6 mil, 3 mil is a cheese.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I'm for 6 mil, 3 mil is a cheese.

All this talk of cheese is making me want to order a pizza. I think a more accurate way to say this is, "I'm for 6 mil, 3 mil is easier to cheese."

Again, if I run a perfectly sustainable and consistent rotation, I just dont see how a 3 mil is cheese when you will get almost the same results on a 6 mil. On some classes with perfectly circular rotations from start to finish (no real execute phase), I dont see a difference at all.

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I'm for 6 mil, 3 mil is a cheese.

All this talk of cheese is making me want to order a pizza. I think a more accurate way to say this is, "I'm for 6 mil, 3 mil is easier to cheese."

Again, if I run a perfectly sustainable and consistent rotation, I just dont see how a 3 mil is cheese when you will get almost the same results on a 6 mil. On some classes with perfectly circular rotations from start to finish (no real execute phase), I dont see a difference at all.

Well, in theory there is not much difference if person who will check parse will look at sustain numbers, buff uptimes, number of LAs and so on. But in majority of cases everybody looks only at dps number, and it's obvious that 3 mil parse allows a lot of cheese with ultimates, lucky crit rate, relying on resource pool for sustain instead of stable "circular sustain" which may start to go down below only at execute stage etc.. all of that is applicable to 6 mil too, but it is much harder to cheese and results will be more averaged and reliable.

Kingslayer513 · March 2019

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Some people cheese their parses by wearing monster helms that most would not wear in PVE. I think that is a mistake.

My belief is that the parse should be your best, normal rotation so it accurately reflects your best possible damage output, in the gear and setup you plan to run.

Curious what you are referring to. Before you say Zaan, lots of people, myself included, wear it most of the time in actual content.

Zaan is fine. Slimecraw and Kra'gh are the common dummy cheese sets.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2019

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Some people cheese their parses by wearing monster helms that most would not wear in PVE. I think that is a mistake.

My belief is that the parse should be your best, normal rotation so it accurately reflects your best possible damage output, in the gear and setup you plan to run.

Curious what you are referring to. Before you say Zaan, lots of people, myself included, wear it most of the time in actual content.

Zaan is fine. Slimecraw and Kra'gh are the common dummy cheese sets.

Funny you say that. Both of those sets give you exactly what you would get from any decent group, and neither move the needle on a parse that much compared to the baseline sets of say Zaan or Veli. At least if you call zaan cheese, you have a passable argument that in real combat you might not be able to stay in its range as well. Calling those sets cheese is kinda laughable if you ask me. Cheese implies you are doing something in a parse that wont work in actual content. Well in actual content, I darn near always have minor berserk and am sitting right at the pen cap.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I'm for 6 mil, 3 mil is a cheese.

All this talk of cheese is making me want to order a pizza. I think a more accurate way to say this is, "I'm for 6 mil, 3 mil is easier to cheese."

Again, if I run a perfectly sustainable and consistent rotation, I just dont see how a 3 mil is cheese when you will get almost the same results on a 6 mil. On some classes with perfectly circular rotations from start to finish (no real execute phase), I dont see a difference at all.

Well, in theory there is not much difference if person who will check parse will look at sustain numbers, buff uptimes, number of LAs and so on. But in majority of cases everybody looks only at dps number, and it's obvious that 3 mil parse allows a lot of cheese with ultimates, lucky crit rate, relying on resource pool for sustain instead of stable "circular sustain" which may start to go down below only at execute stage etc.. all of that is applicable to 6 mil too, but it is much harder to cheese and results will be more averaged and reliable.

Pretty sure that's the point I was making.

I dont really see how ultimates are more cheese on three mil, as typically, i kill it before I have time to cast a second one (not counting Nightblades), and on a 6 mill i get 2 off most of the time, so that seems like a wash.

I think the two biggest culprits are sustain and crit. You can basically ignore sustain tools on just about any class and take out a 3 mill, but that is not the case on a 6 mil. But again, if your regen and drain are reasonable, then it might not really be cheese. As to the crit, well, the longer your parse, the more likely your crit is going to even out. So yeah, short fights like a 3 mil make it easier for the stars to align for that perfect parse.