Cadwell's Gold and Silver are very bad for lore immersion and RP and need to be changed

Quantact · February 2019

Hi there,

I am a big fan of Elder Scrolls, and have been for a long time. Part of what I like about Elder Scrolls is the use of history and politics as basis for some of the lore and character personalities.

ESO is a good example, and I like how the first rule of real-life international politics is followed in this game: national self interest. This is one of the first things real-life diplomats learn in school. So, politicians may tell their countries a lot of things to justify foreign policy, but on the international stage, it's every country for itself, diplomats and national leaders talking with each other away from the cameras know this, and if a politician doesn't follow this rule, he or she isn't properly representing his or her country and should be replaced. High King Emeric, Queen Ayrenn and the Jorunn the Skald King all do this very well, because while they are good people individually and to their loyal subjects, when dealing with the other factions, quite a bit of dirty stuff gets done in their name and by their knowledge. When they have the end-game summit, they quickly start fighting with each other as enemies, only act together because Molag Bal tries to assassinate all of them, and the Fighter's Guild leader points out that they themselves are to blame for the war that's going on.

The player character is the close eye and confidante of one of the faction leaders. When you're just going through the game, everything makes sense. Where it decisively stops making sense is when you finish your faction's quest line and get into Cadwell's Gold and Silver, where you're invited to see how things would have turned out if you had washed ashore in one of the other two factions. You then go to bat for the other two faction leaders, very often foiling the plans of the faction you're actually with.

This is very immersion breaking and both RP wise and lore wise makes absolutely no sense. If you fought and risked your life for Queen Ayrenn, you want to hinder and harm the other two faction leaders any chance you get. You won't go and save the King of Daggerfall, clear Siluum of Dominion troops, and solve Emeric's problems for him. Yes, the Dominion you encounter don't know you are working for Ayrenn, but YOU know you work for Ayrenn. You WANT Emeric's territory to be a screaming mess where Bloodthorn and Red Rooks rampage unchecked, kill people and ultimately kill Emeric, you WANT him to be assassinated, for Camlorn to be overrun by werewolves and so on. If this was otherwise, Queen Ayrenn wouldn't have trusted you as she did. She certainly wouldn't approve of you aiding her enemies, who literally want to kill her, to get some stupid helmet. She'd see it as a complete betrayal and have you hunted down and executed, probably by Razum Dar, who knows how you think.

Same goes for the other two factions. I understand Emeric and Skald King are likeable people, but if you work for Emeric, you work for Emeric. If you work for the Skald King, you work for the Skald King.

I definitely see how and why Zenimax wants people to be able to play Cadwell's gold and silver, but the justification needs to be changed. For example, you might have the progression purely in your mind, where you DO the quest line and get the skyshards and your experience and progression are real, but the actual aid you give the two enemy factions happens only in your mind and is not real. The faction leader you work for would actually approve of this, because the hindrance you're presenting him or her is not real, but the life experience you get is real and can then be used, for real, on the faction leader's behalf, such as in Cyrodiil. Ayrenn is not going to judge you a traitor for clearing Siluum of Dominion troops fictitiously; it would actually let her get a feel for how her troops perform on the field and how they can be bettered. Also, since she relies on you as her close eye and confidante, if such a fiction can make you vastly more powerful without hindering her in reality, she would personally approve of you doing that. Same for other two faction leaders and their servants.

The justification need not be what I suggest, of course, but I strongly feel something like that is needed. When I brought this up in-game with my friends, they said "you do it for the pretty helmet," which doesn't really strike me as the best reason to mess up such a lore-rich game's immersion and lore.

VaranisArano · February 2019

There's not really a good way to handle Cadwell's Silver and Gold in the way you suggest that doesn't add an enormous amount of complexity to the game in terms of roleplaying. ESO and the Elder Scrolls games really aren't a "tailor-made roleplaying experience." Rather, you take your character through the questlines already created. That shapes your character as much as your character shapes the world within the bounds the developers set.

First, a bit of the history. Originally, you couldn't take another faction's character into the other Alliances. You did your faction questline, fought Molag Bal, and then headed into the end-game: Cyrodiil. Where you fought for your Alliance in the Three Banners War aka PVP.

Yeah, you can imagine how that went over with the Elder Scrolls fans.

So people didn't want to be locked out of quests. They didn't want to start new characters because progression was a grind and a lot of things were faction locked. So if you had an EP Vestige, starting a DC Vestige to do the DC storyline was a not fun grind. Great for storyline immersion. Not all that fun for the players.

So, we got Cadwell's Silver and Gold. This progressed through the alliances, now Vet Rank zones, as an alternate history of how you washed ashore and eventually got yourself to Stirk, whereupon you return to the original timeline. This let EP Vestiges, like myself, go play the DC storyline and the AD storyline without making new characters.

One Tamriel was...great for gameplay. Horrible for immersive storytelling and questline progression. Once you hit One Tamriel, you pretty much have to either be meticulous about playing quests in the original order or be prepared to headcanon quite a lot of things.

So that presents a couple of roleplaying options I can see.

1. You roleplay it all however you want in your imagination.

This is hands down the most versatile option. Your imagination will always be more fruitful than the developers have the time to do or the money to pay their voice actors.

Here, you can be as loyal or secretly disloyal as you want. I pretended that my EP Vestige traveled to the other zones after defeating Molag Bal to clean up the Worm Cult, and wound up doing much of the high-powered boss fights and bodyguarding Emeric and Ayrenn, because clearly dealing with Moalg Bal's forces was a bigger priority than the Pact. While the scut-work and actual supporting DC and AD was does by my Breton Dark Brotherhood Silencer and my Altmer battlemage for their alliance questlines and my EP Vestige didn't really do that part.

Essentially, no roleplaying game can match the player's ability to make their own headcanon. So embrace it, make your head canon, and enjoy the game for what it is.

2. Your character does it to preserve the timeline. All the alliance quests happen more or less at the same time, all ending at the point where you'd go to Stirk. At least, this is how I rationalize why an EP Vestige who's done Coldharbor already keeps their mouth shout when they meet Darien in Glenumbra. They're afraid that if they tell him, they'll change the timeline that narrowly ended in victory and then the Planemeld will still be happening.

I lean towards option #1 myself. I roleplay a lot of disparate characters and there's no way the ZOS developers are going to be able to accommodate all the things my roleplaying lets my characters do. Even Skyrim, Oblivion, and Morrowind can't do that.

RebornV3x · February 2019

I just role play a Mercenary exploring Tamriel helping people, fighting for whatever faction or person that's paying and selling any loot I come across. While also on a mission to destory the Worm Cult and any other cults that threaten Tamriel.

Quantact · February 2019

RebornV3x wrote: »

I just role play a Mercenary exploring Tamriel helping people, fighting for whatever faction or person that's paying and selling any loot I come across. While also on a mission to destory the Worm Cult and any other cults that threaten Tamriel.

Given the current mechanics, I am kinda doing something like that too, I just think it could be made better for the sake of RP and lore.

VaranisArano wrote: »

There's not really a good way to handle Cadwell's Silver and Gold in the way you suggest that doesn't add an enormous amount of complexity to the game in terms of roleplaying. ESO and the Elder Scrolls games really aren't a "tailor-made roleplaying experience." Rather, you take your character through the questlines already created. That shapes your character as much as your character shapes the world within the bounds the developers set.

First, a bit of the history. Originally, you couldn't take another faction's character into the other Alliances. You did your faction questline, fought Molag Bal, and then headed into the end-game: Cyrodiil. Where you fought for your Alliance in the Three Banners War aka PVP.

Yeah, you can imagine how that went over with the Elder Scrolls fans.

So people didn't want to be locked out of quests. They didn't want to start new characters because progression was a grind and a lot of things were faction locked. So if you had an EP Vestige, starting a DC Vestige to do the DC storyline was a not fun grind. Great for storyline immersion. Not all that fun for the players.

So, we got Cadwell's Silver and Gold. This progressed through the alliances, now Vet Rank zones, as an alternate history of how you washed ashore and eventually got yourself to Stirk, whereupon you return to the original timeline. This let EP Vestiges, like myself, go play the DC storyline and the AD storyline without making new characters.

One Tamriel was...great for gameplay. Horrible for immersive storytelling and questline progression. Once you hit One Tamriel, you pretty much have to either be meticulous about playing quests in the original order or be prepared to headcanon quite a lot of things.

So that presents a couple of roleplaying options I can see.

1. You roleplay it all however you want in your imagination.

This is hands down the most versatile option. Your imagination will always be more fruitful than the developers have the time to do or the money to pay their voice actors.

Here, you can be as loyal or secretly disloyal as you want. I pretended that my EP Vestige traveled to the other zones after defeating Molag Bal to clean up the Worm Cult, and wound up doing much of the high-powered boss fights and bodyguarding Emeric and Ayrenn, because clearly dealing with Moalg Bal's forces was a bigger priority than the Pact. While the scut-work and actual supporting DC and AD was does by my Breton Dark Brotherhood Silencer and my Altmer battlemage for their alliance questlines and my EP Vestige didn't really do that part.

Essentially, no roleplaying game can match the player's ability to make their own headcanon. So embrace it, make your head canon, and enjoy the game for what it is.

2. Your character does it to preserve the timeline. All the alliance quests happen more or less at the same time, all ending at the point where you'd go to Stirk. At least, this is how I rationalize why an EP Vestige who's done Coldharbor already keeps their mouth shout when they meet Darien in Glenumbra. They're afraid that if they tell him, they'll change the timeline that narrowly ended in victory and then the Planemeld will still be happening.

I lean towards option #1 myself. I roleplay a lot of disparate characters and there's no way the ZOS developers are going to be able to accommodate all the things my roleplaying lets my characters do. Even Skyrim, Oblivion, and Morrowind can't do that.

I understand what you're saying, but I think you misunderstood me a tiny bit. I actually am already roleplaying the issue similar to how you suggested. I just think the changes I am requesting are not super hard to make, which I'll try to explain below.

I understand that One Tamriel and Cadwell's Gold and Silver are necessary for gameplay reasons. I just think the parameters for giving the quest need to be changed. I agree with almost everything you're saying, but I can't agree that it MUST add enormous additional complexity to the zones to change the rationale of Cadwell's Gold and Silver in a fantasy setting, because in fantasy, almost anything is possible if creatively applied.

What I was trying to suggest in my OP is not to scrap or drastically change gameplay during Gold and Silver but simply change things so it doesn't require you to betray your original faction. That just requires the QUEST ASSIGNMENT for Gold and Silver to be changed. The quest assignment would leave the actual Gold and Silver quest alone while only changing the way the player character is given it. For this, you'd need to make the quest seem like you're helping the two enemy factions, but actually the quest-giving makes it so you are helping your original faction in doing so, never the other two. That's not hundreds of hours of coding, that's just the text that accompanies the start of the quest, though admittedly Zenimax will have to get creative here.

Please allow me to try to explain what I mean. Let's say, after your faction's storyline, your faction leader calls you into a room in private and there are two mirrors: one enables you to play Enemy Faction 1 so realistically that it seems true, and the second mirror allows it with Enemy Faction 2. It will be realistic enough that you'll really think you're there in every single way, but really the go-through is your faction leader's idea so he/she can 1. better understand how his/her faction troops attack the other factions (such as when you test that in a place like Siluum, where DC players fight AD troops, and it would be good for Queen Ayrenn to simulate this) and 2. your faction leader knows this'll make you as his or her champion much stronger because it seems utterly real and your faction leader needs you as experienced as possible. The faction leader warns you the realism will be such that you can die, even from your faction's troops. However, he or she requests that you undertake the quest because despite its difficulty, it'll enormously help your faction. It leaves Gold and Silver completely intact while making it the ultimate intelligence-gathering mission permitted by some really powerful magic item your faction leader got and needs your help with. When put this way, you're no longer going against the interests of your faction in any way.

The above paragraph or something like it is all that's needed. After Gold and Silver are done, you go back to the room with the two mirrors, and your faction leader thanks you. No changes to the actual quests are necessary. Even though Cadwell's Gold and Silver haven't been changed one iota in terms of actual gameplay, it's now an assignment your faction leader wants you to undertake both for you to get stronger and get intel in various ways on how to stick it to your faction's enemies. You're not betraying your faction but rather undertaking the ultimate danger, equivalent to helping your own faction in the original quest... times two.

In fantasy, something like this is always possible, and it would be a powerful tool and a closely guarded secret, like nuclear launch codes are for real-life governments. But lore-wise and RP-wise, Cadwell's Gold and Silver would now make sense.

So, to sum it up, your concern seems to be that drastic and major changes would be needed to fix Gold and Silver to implement my suggestion, but I believe if Zenimax just changes the way the quest is given, (in the way I suggest or another way) the issue can be resolved without having to change faction play or to make Gold and Silver incompatible with loyalty to your original faction. The quest instructions change, not the quest itself.

I hope this makes sense.

VaranisArano · February 2019

Is it worth the time and effort for even that change? Practically, that's really going to be the question ZOS asks. Consider AD - it would be Razum-dar giving you that assignment, not Ayrenn, because if they aren't going to get her voice actor for Summerset, they aren't going to do it for this.

That's also where I fall on this. We can roleplay much more richly in our imagination that its really not worth it for ZOS to try and adjust things so that they fit lots of possibilities except for the most glaring continuity issues. Designing scenes to let us roleplay as pure faction loyalists is...well, I guess that not only would ZOS not really have the interest in redoing this (considering that it took years for them to even give us a quest guide after One Tamriel, so we can guess at their priorities for making the story make sense), but that whatever they do would still be less rich than what we can imagine in our own playthroughs. Not to mention the many people who roleplay their own, different, reasons for why their characters do what they do that don't fit into either option presented.

I think your example of how ZOS could implement this is amazing roleplay that fits your characters. I just don't expect to see it or any other explanation in the game becoming canon for everyone else.

We've got the basic canon explanation: Meridia chucked us into an alternate timeline as if we washed up on another shore. What our characters do from there is up to our imaginations as we play through the questlines.

Given that ZOS has taken a pretty minimalist approach with changing the quests only for continuity issues with important NPCs like Naryu or Razum-dar, I don't expect to see any changes.

myskyrim26 · February 2019

Sorry, but this doesn't make sence at all.
A Souless One never truly works for Ayrenn or Emeric or whoever else. He is a tool - of the Divines? Or Daedra? We don't know. Yet he can and he must be in every corner of Tamriel fixing the things.

M_Volsung · February 2019

I just wish I could drop it from the quest journal.

PrayingSeraph · February 2019

They are poorly implemented, and don't work very well

It was clearly a rushed job. At the time people were raging about it, devs were pressured

Enodoc · March 2019

I think the current explanation is perfectly valid, but it's pretty hidden due to the One Tamriel implementation, in such a way that it's basically overlooked now since the quest order isn't maintained.

When you start Cadwell's Silver, he says two things to you (paraphrased):

Let's see what would have happened if you'd washed up on a different shore
Meridia will hide your true identity from your enemies

Lorewise, this means that Cadwell's Silver and Gold are parallel or alternate timelines; gameplay-wise, this is ignored by the fact you can just take a boat there.

Maintaining lore integrity would be possible if, the first time you entered the territory of another faction, you met someone who basically said "you're in the lands of your enemies, Meridia will hide your true identity".

Alternatively, if you've played the AD quests The Witch of Silatar (Greenshade) or A Tale Forever Told (Malabal Tor), you will know the magic of a "Spinner's story" - just think of Cadwell's as a form of Spinner's story where you are "inserted" into a role within that faction.

SirAndy · March 2019

Quantact wrote: »

... Where it decisively stops making sense is when you finish your faction's quest line and get into Cadwell's Gold and Silver, where you're invited to see how things would have turned out if you had washed ashore in one of the other two factions. You then go to bat for the other two faction leaders, very often foiling the plans of the faction you're actually with. ...

The point you are missing is that none of the events of Gold and Silver are *real* (with regards to your character), they are merely an illusion meant to show you how things would have been if you had been in those factions instead of your own.

There is absolutely nothing immersion breaking with Gold/Silver as long as you understand how they work ...

Tabris93 · March 2019

I personally gave my main a break after I got to the gold/silver quest. (And dusted her off again once Orisium and Summerset came out).

I am one of those who love creating new characters and exploring new areas. I would never "waste" a new faction by questing it with the same char! What better reason to create a new char than to explore a new faction and new provinces?

Vuldovahkriid · March 2019

The way I make it work is after the events of Stirk and Coldharbour, my character was given diplomat status that allows them access to those areas. When I'm fighting those of my characters alliance, I pretend they are actually a rogue division within the alliance.

FleetwoodSmack · March 2019

SirAndy wrote: »

Quantact wrote: »

... Where it decisively stops making sense is when you finish your faction's quest line and get into Cadwell's Gold and Silver, where you're invited to see how things would have turned out if you had washed ashore in one of the other two factions. You then go to bat for the other two faction leaders, very often foiling the plans of the faction you're actually with. ...

The point you are missing is that none of the events of Gold and Silver are *real* (with regards to your character), they are merely an illusion meant to show you how things would have been if you had been in those factions instead of your own.

There is absolutely nothing immersion breaking with Gold/Silver as long as you understand how they work ...

This. To go even more in depth... Because I don't think people are getting the hint;

The wording is very clear once you talk to Cadwell that these events were to come to pass if you washed up in another alliance. I really don't understand how people miss this. I rush through quests and even I got the gist of what Cadwell was saying. "Oh what could have been? Okayskip."

When you're going through Cadwell's Gold and Silver, it's in the same timeframe as your main alliance. It's not continuity. It's happening at the SAME time.

DBZVelena · March 2019

2 things to remember about Cadwells quest:
1: the quest is a what if. Scenario.
2: the only reason to complete the quest is for the quest rewards. which is a motif and a "helm" unlock.

So if you don't care about nr 2 and don't want to do a 1 thing. you can just go do something else. plenty f dlc's to play.

Aliyavana · March 2019

Enodoc wrote: »

I think the current explanation is perfectly valid, but it's pretty hidden due to the One Tamriel implementation, in such a way that it's basically overlooked now since the quest order isn't maintained.

When you start Cadwell's Silver, he says two things to you (paraphrased):
Let's see what would have happened if you'd washed up on a different shore

Meridia will hide your true identity from your enemies

Lorewise, this means that Cadwell's Silver and Gold are parallel or alternate timelines; gameplay-wise, this is ignored by the fact you can just take a boat there.

Maintaining lore integrity would be possible if, the first time you entered the territory of another faction, you met someone who basically said "you're in the lands of your enemies, Meridia will hide your true identity".

Alternatively, if you've played the AD quests The Witch of Silatar (Greenshade) or A Tale Forever Told (Malabal Tor), you will know the magic of a "Spinner's story" - just think of Cadwell's as a form of Spinner's story where you are "inserted" into a role within that faction.

I wouldn't say it is alternate reality. the npcs from other factions still recognize you after you are done, they probably just see you as a different identity. take the raz and naryu mission from the gold coast, both will recognize you. naryu probably sees you with different features than razum-dar does

Enodoc · March 2019

Aliyavana wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I think the current explanation is perfectly valid, but it's pretty hidden due to the One Tamriel implementation, in such a way that it's basically overlooked now since the quest order isn't maintained.

When you start Cadwell's Silver, he says two things to you (paraphrased):
Let's see what would have happened if you'd washed up on a different shore

Meridia will hide your true identity from your enemies

Lorewise, this means that Cadwell's Silver and Gold are parallel or alternate timelines; gameplay-wise, this is ignored by the fact you can just take a boat there.

Maintaining lore integrity would be possible if, the first time you entered the territory of another faction, you met someone who basically said "you're in the lands of your enemies, Meridia will hide your true identity".

Alternatively, if you've played the AD quests The Witch of Silatar (Greenshade) or A Tale Forever Told (Malabal Tor), you will know the magic of a "Spinner's story" - just think of Cadwell's as a form of Spinner's story where you are "inserted" into a role within that faction.

I wouldn't say it is alternate reality. the npcs from other factions still recognize you after you are done, they probably just see you as a different identity. take the raz and naryu mission from the gold coast, both will recognize you. naryu probably sees you with different features than razum-dar does

Yeah, that's why I like the Spinner's story approach - people remember you from a Spinner's story (Aranias being the prime example), even though the events of that story did not actually occur during the "prime" timeline.