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Wood Elf fashion models, what's left
ShadowWolf44
✭✭✭
So, ZOS hates PVE players. And solo players. As their destruction of the Wood Elf is implemented. I'll leave my Cat outta this. I don't think I'm the only one in EOS, who doesn't play PVP, (at least for now), I've been solo PVE for years. It's what I PAY to do. My main, and 2 of my alts, ALL rely, and have been built around, stealth. My gear, everything I've spent my time on.
And now, people such as myself, no longer matter. Nightblade, to me, is already pathetically nerfed, compared to others. ZOS, from what I've been reading, TALKS of "whispers in the dark" help, for something that WASN'T BROKEN, in the first place. So, what do I do now? They took away my game play, style of play, armor, set ups, in one fell swoop. And they could care less. "Whispers in the dark", will always be just that, whispers.
Meanwhile. I can't play the game with my main anymore. I'm sure this post will be attacked by people, until they get my thread shut down, as they have done many times. It's how they stifle the voices that are like mine. That, or people will boycott posts. It's how they, (ZOS), get around having to deal with those of us, whose play style they don't care for. I mean, they talk high and mighty about not allowing bullying, but if that's not what this is, wth is it?
See, the game was sold as being one, in which we could play OUR STYLE, OUR WAY. Except, it's nothing of the sort.
So, as once again I pre-purchased content, hoping the game was improving, once again, for myself, it's the opposite. Just, this time, they completely removed my play style. And, any "fix", will be months down the road, if ever at all.
That leaves me with only two choices, {none of which will be made by me, but FORCED upon me), dump all my armor, and attempt to find a way to deal with all this crap, which will involve many hours of searching, tons of gold, and real-life money, (which has been their ONLY goal from the start, their wealth, over gamers desires), or Quit the game entirely. Which is the way I'm leaning now. Once again, years of work and development, wasted.
The only question left, ZOS, is, how will you set it up, so that those of us who's game play/style is now over, can get a refund for our Pre-purchase of Elsweyr, something I was really looking forward to, until YOU changed the entire game? I guess that's why you waited until now, to screw Wood Elf's and Khajiit, after everyone got hyped and bought your next phase/gold mine, right? I've no desire to quit playing for months, or longer, waiting to see if you bring back, that which should have never been removed.
So, please, let us know what we need to do, those of us, who's play style doesn't fit in "Your" game anymore, so that we may be refunded our "Pre-purchase". That's the least you can do.
And now, people such as myself, no longer matter. Nightblade, to me, is already pathetically nerfed, compared to others. ZOS, from what I've been reading, TALKS of "whispers in the dark" help, for something that WASN'T BROKEN, in the first place. So, what do I do now? They took away my game play, style of play, armor, set ups, in one fell swoop. And they could care less. "Whispers in the dark", will always be just that, whispers.
Meanwhile. I can't play the game with my main anymore. I'm sure this post will be attacked by people, until they get my thread shut down, as they have done many times. It's how they stifle the voices that are like mine. That, or people will boycott posts. It's how they, (ZOS), get around having to deal with those of us, whose play style they don't care for. I mean, they talk high and mighty about not allowing bullying, but if that's not what this is, wth is it?
See, the game was sold as being one, in which we could play OUR STYLE, OUR WAY. Except, it's nothing of the sort.
So, as once again I pre-purchased content, hoping the game was improving, once again, for myself, it's the opposite. Just, this time, they completely removed my play style. And, any "fix", will be months down the road, if ever at all.
That leaves me with only two choices, {none of which will be made by me, but FORCED upon me), dump all my armor, and attempt to find a way to deal with all this crap, which will involve many hours of searching, tons of gold, and real-life money, (which has been their ONLY goal from the start, their wealth, over gamers desires), or Quit the game entirely. Which is the way I'm leaning now. Once again, years of work and development, wasted.
The only question left, ZOS, is, how will you set it up, so that those of us who's game play/style is now over, can get a refund for our Pre-purchase of Elsweyr, something I was really looking forward to, until YOU changed the entire game? I guess that's why you waited until now, to screw Wood Elf's and Khajiit, after everyone got hyped and bought your next phase/gold mine, right? I've no desire to quit playing for months, or longer, waiting to see if you bring back, that which should have never been removed.
So, please, let us know what we need to do, those of us, who's play style doesn't fit in "Your" game anymore, so that we may be refunded our "Pre-purchase". That's the least you can do.
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How is your playstyle over?
Honest question - my PVE stam sorc is my main thief/Silencer and she's a Breton and manages to clear the stealth content without either invisibility or dedicated stealth gear.
Don't get me wrong. I'm certain that, for a PVE stealth player who's used to having that extra small stealth radius, its a big adjustment. But having that only makes stealth content easier; not having it doesnt make it impossible.13 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's not just about the numbers. It's about 25 years of lore. For 25 years Bosmer have been about 3 things: Pact, Archery, Stealth. This was represented in the previous passives with disease resistance (due to the meat mandate Bosmer can't drink beer, so they drink the juice from rotting flesh, so, yeah, disease resistance is a thing), the boost in exp for bow (which was as good a weapon boost as anyone had with bow), and the bonus to hiding. Now, Bosmer have lost all of that: poison instead of disease resistance, no bonus to hiding (and to add to the injury the insult of having a useless counter-stealth passive), and Orcs, Dunmer, Redguards, and Imperials are all better archers due to their new passives.
There are no Bosmer at all in this game anymore.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.5 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Honestly, though I was never sneaky bosmer, and I know something about bosmer that I regret. so all these posts well have my support including that open letter. Now in regards to the future. Improve sheath gameplay is a start but doesn't make them sneaky. I suggest just give bosmer 10% movement speed in sheath too. This allows people to be better thieves by being faster. This allows people to explore dungeons again as a bosmer. This fixes lore issue.
Also just leaned swap Argonian and bosmer poison and disease passive. There's zero harm here but being right on lore.
@zos_Leamontuttle
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ShadowWolf44✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »How is your playstyle over?
Honest question - my PVE stam sorc is my main thief/Silencer and she's a Breton and manages to clear the stealth content without either invisibility or dedicated stealth gear.
Don't get me wrong. I'm certain that, for a PVE stealth player who's used to having that extra small stealth radius, its a big adjustment. But having that only makes stealth content easier; not having it doesnt make it impossible.
I clear content solo. In all areas. I spent a lot of time gathering the gear I use, that is all based on stealth, flank attacks, etc. When mobs turn on you? You can't do enough damage to clear.
My Sorc is has 0 stealth, and can clear the same room. (speaking undaunted stuff here, atm), But, that toon is geared for that, specifically. My Nightblade is a totally different set up. It's damage isn't close to ANY of my other toons. However, I'd spent a lot of time getting the GEAR, that would bring my NB closer to those jobs. But now? It's basically useless, as I said.
Stealth attacks must have stealth to function properly. There was NO reason to get rid of the stealth passive. None. Other than maybe other classes crying, because they are NOT as stealthy.
But that is the FUNCTION of the game. Every class is SUPPOSED to be different, thereby making each one valuable, in it's own, unique way. It was never meant to be "All Classes are equal". That's just pathetic, tbh.
That are to be EQUALLY VALUABLE, not Equally balanced in talent. That's what makes characters unique.
Thanks for responding.0 -
ShadowWolf44✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »It's not just about the numbers. It's about 25 years of lore. For 25 years Bosmer have been about 3 things: Pact, Archery, Stealth. This was represented in the previous passives with disease resistance (due to the meat mandate Bosmer can't drink beer, so they drink the juice from rotting flesh, so, yeah, disease resistance is a thing), the boost in exp for bow (which was as good a weapon boost as anyone had with bow), and the bonus to hiding. Now, Bosmer have lost all of that: poison instead of disease resistance, no bonus to hiding (and to add to the injury the insult of having a useless counter-stealth passive), and Orcs, Dunmer, Redguards, and Imperials are all better archers due to their new passives.
There are no Bosmer at all in this game anymore.
This is the other aspect, I just touched on at the end of responding to the first person. Each race is supposed to have it's own, unique characteristics. Other people are just annoyed, because THEY don't have "stealth". However, they have OTHER talents, Bosmer do NOT have, making THEM unique .
ZOS, to me, seems to be trying to give everything, to everyone, who WHINES too loud. When you try to please everyone, you will, 99.98% of the time, wind up pleasing no one. As is what we have know, imho.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ShadowWolf44 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »How is your playstyle over?
Honest question - my PVE stam sorc is my main thief/Silencer and she's a Breton and manages to clear the stealth content without either invisibility or dedicated stealth gear.
Don't get me wrong. I'm certain that, for a PVE stealth player who's used to having that extra small stealth radius, its a big adjustment. But having that only makes stealth content easier; not having it doesnt make it impossible.
I clear content solo. In all areas. I spent a lot of time gathering the gear I use, that is all based on stealth, flank attacks, etc. When mobs turn on you? You can't do enough damage to clear.
My Sorc is has 0 stealth, and can clear the same room. (speaking undaunted stuff here, atm), But, that toon is geared for that, specifically. My Nightblade is a totally different set up. It's damage isn't close to ANY of my other toons. However, I'd spent a lot of time getting the GEAR, that would bring my NB closer to those jobs. But now? It's basically useless, as I said.
Stealth attacks must have stealth to function properly. There was NO reason to get rid of the stealth passive. None. Other than maybe other classes crying, because they are NOT as stealthy.
But that is the FUNCTION of the game. Every class is SUPPOSED to be different, thereby making each one valuable, in it's own, unique way. It was never meant to be "All Classes are equal". That's just pathetic, tbh.
That are to be EQUALLY VALUABLE, not Equally balanced in talent. That's what makes characters unique.
Thanks for responding.
I guess I see where you are coming from. It sounds like, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you built your character in a particular way to play with a very stealthy combat style, and that combat style has been significantly nerfed with the removal of the Bosmer passive?
In that case, yeah, I can see where it would be frustrating.
Though from a purely gameplay perspective, that's far from the first combat method ZOS has destroyed. It actually reminds me a lot of the conplaints from damage shield users during Murkmire PTS. I also think of Tava's Blessing tanks and the pre-morrowind Blazeplars. Clever Alchemist gankers, nightblade saptanks, repeated nerfs to 1vXers, lots of nerfs to speed builds, etc.
ZOS doesn't make any guarantee that our preferred combat styles will remain viable. That's not what the "Play the way you like" bit on the ads mean.
Here's what it means.
So it sucks that you have to change the playstyle you prefer and have invested time and gold into. But that's just the way the game functions, ZOS has done it before and they will do it again.Edited by VaranisArano on March 13, 2019 10:16PM5 -
russelmmendoza✭✭✭✭✭
✭I really hate zos for catering to the most whinning and crying players in the game.
It all comes down to players getting killed by other players using this race, this class, this skill, this passives.
And comes crying and whinning in the forums for a nerf.
I really love it when they said,"PLAY THE WAY YOU LIKE"
Now, not so much.2 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ShadowWolf44 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »How is your playstyle over?
Honest question - my PVE stam sorc is my main thief/Silencer and she's a Breton and manages to clear the stealth content without either invisibility or dedicated stealth gear.
Don't get me wrong. I'm certain that, for a PVE stealth player who's used to having that extra small stealth radius, its a big adjustment. But having that only makes stealth content easier; not having it doesnt make it impossible.
Stealth attacks must have stealth to function properly. There was NO reason to get rid of the stealth passive. None. Other than maybe other classes crying, because they are NOT as stealthy.
You’re a Nightblade, yes? You have cloak, yes? You don’t need a stealth detection reduction passive to “have stealth” as a NB... Also, you have less damage on your NB than your sorc? You realize that NBs are the go-to ganker class, right, because they can do huge burst damage from stealth and then cloak away? If a stealth detection passive is the make or break factor in your build, you might need to tinker with your build...7 -
burglar✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »It's not just about the numbers. It's about 25 years of lore. For 25 years Bosmer have been about 3 things: Pact, Archery, Stealth. This was represented in the previous passives with disease resistance (due to the meat mandate Bosmer can't drink beer, so they drink the juice from rotting flesh, so, yeah, disease resistance is a thing), the boost in exp for bow (which was as good a weapon boost as anyone had with bow), and the bonus to hiding. Now, Bosmer have lost all of that: poison instead of disease resistance, no bonus to hiding (and to add to the injury the insult of having a useless counter-stealth passive), and Orcs, Dunmer, Redguards, and Imperials are all better archers due to their new passives.
There are no Bosmer at all in this game anymore.
The OP claims to be primarily a PVE player and feels ZOS shows too much attention to PvP, so to reference any violation of the lore in this case is a contradiction because the time period in which ESO takes place has it's lore embedded in alliance warfare. So, to maintain an objective stance, and for any argument regarding using the lore as a defense, people concerned with this issue would need to determine where they stand. If the lore is only used to defend points as seen fit, and disregarded otherwise, it loses it's truth value as 'historical information' and instead becomes an opinion about which lore is most important.
In general, this extends to the argument that 'Bosmer racial changes violate their lore', because previously, nobody was this concerned about how true-to-the-lore Bosmer racial passives were - nor any other race, for that matter. I mean technically, per the lore, Bosmers should be able to consume what they kill, as well as charm simple minded creatures, but we don't see those things in game, nor have we ever seen complaints regarding how not having those things in the game violates the lore. So, why express convictions about the lore now? Is it possible that it's simply more effective to masquerade opinions around as fact (i.e. lore) than it is to make a case for the real underlying issue, that... the changes to Bosmer racial passives make some people uncomfrotable, and they don't want to deal with it.
There's actually a name for this kind of reasoning.Bosmer Melee Magicka Nightblade8 -
ShadowWolf44✭✭✭ShadowWolf44 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »How is your playstyle over?
Honest question - my PVE stam sorc is my main thief/Silencer and she's a Breton and manages to clear the stealth content without either invisibility or dedicated stealth gear.
Don't get me wrong. I'm certain that, for a PVE stealth player who's used to having that extra small stealth radius, its a big adjustment. But having that only makes stealth content easier; not having it doesnt make it impossible.
Stealth attacks must have stealth to function properly. There was NO reason to get rid of the stealth passive. None. Other than maybe other classes crying, because they are NOT as stealthy.
You’re a Nightblade, yes? You have cloak, yes? You don’t need a stealth detection reduction passive to “have stealth” as a NB... Also, you have less damage on your NB than your sorc? You realize that NBs are the go-to ganker class, right, because they can do huge burst damage from stealth and then cloak away? If a stealth detection passive is the make or break factor in your build, you might need to tinker with your build...
Have you tried this change yet? My whole point is that I CAN'T do this damage anymore, from stealth. If they would have added...say 3-4 seconds, to our stealth-cloak? I'd of never said a word. 2.9 secs? With all the variables, (remember, I play solo. I don't have a tank or any other method, to "turn" a mob. If you've never tried to stealth-cloak, in a room full of mobs, trying to stealth hit the target you need, then you really don't understand what I'm talking about.
I understand that people "tinker" with their builds. I've being doing this for years. And I finally found, for a SOLO, PVE player, what worked, so I could get through the majority of the content, I paid for, just like everyone else. The detection radius passive wasn't nerfed, it was completely removed.
What this now means, is I would have to re-farm all new gear, destroy all the gear I spent so much time, money, effort etc on. It's wrong, imo.
As far as was mentioned above, yes, ZOS has jacked with many jobs, abilities, etc. But the actual racial abilities, that make a Wood Elf a Wood Elf? A Khajiit a Khajiit? NO.
And all because a few people complain, because THEIR race doesn't have EVERYTHING. That's all I see this as being. Nothing more.
I've NEVER complained because that job has more power than me, or more speed, or more anything. I CHOSE my race, because of it's UNIQUE traits. That's all I'm saying.
Now? There is no "Unique".0 -
Darkonflare15✭✭✭✭✭ProbablePaul wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »It's not just about the numbers. It's about 25 years of lore. For 25 years Bosmer have been about 3 things: Pact, Archery, Stealth. This was represented in the previous passives with disease resistance (due to the meat mandate Bosmer can't drink beer, so they drink the juice from rotting flesh, so, yeah, disease resistance is a thing), the boost in exp for bow (which was as good a weapon boost as anyone had with bow), and the bonus to hiding. Now, Bosmer have lost all of that: poison instead of disease resistance, no bonus to hiding (and to add to the injury the insult of having a useless counter-stealth passive), and Orcs, Dunmer, Redguards, and Imperials are all better archers due to their new passives.
There are no Bosmer at all in this game anymore.
The OP claims to be primarily a PVE player and feels ZOS shows too much attention to PvP, so to reference any violation of the lore in this case is a contradiction because the time period in which ESO takes place has it's lore embedded in alliance warfare. So, to maintain an objective stance, and for any argument regarding using the lore as a defense, people concerned with this issue would need to determine where they stand. If the lore is only used to defend points as seen fit, and disregarded otherwise, it loses it's truth value as 'historical information' and instead becomes an opinion about which lore is most important.
In general, this extends to the argument that 'Bosmer racial changes violate their lore', because previously, nobody was this concerned about how true-to-the-lore Bosmer racial passives were - nor any other race, for that matter. I mean technically, per the lore, Bosmers should be able to consume what they kill, as well as charm simple minded creatures, but we don't see those things in game, nor have we ever seen complaints regarding how not having those things in the game violates the lore. So, why express convictions about the lore now? Is it possible that it's simply more effective to masquerade opinions around as fact (i.e. lore) than it is to make a case for the real underlying issue, that... the changes to Bosmer racial passives make some people uncomfrotable, and they don't want to deal with it.
There's actually a name for this kind of reasoning.
I agree with this. This just a case of lore vs gameplay. This hurts lore is a tool use by the player base when they feel like devs do not understand the lore but then they forget that it is the devs that determine lore and it how it works in their game. The elder scrolls series lore is always base on concepts of gameplay throughout all the years.Things will always change to benefit the game. Not the other way around.2 -
ShadowWolf44✭✭✭You lost me when you started sounding like a martyr to the cause.
"A Martyr to the cause"? LOL. Yeah. Ok, Giving my opinion, my feelings are something I fully and completely disagree with, and believe destroyed my Main, in the BASIC sense, not in a "I want more power, more this, more that" way, in a "I chose this Character, because of who and what they ARE, NOT because I wanted to eventually make it an ORC.
How you get me sounding like a "Martyr", is beyond me. I've worked my ass off on all 8 of my toons. ZOS didn't "Nerf" an ability or Ultimate, they completely removed a large part, of who my toon IS. That is what I'm saying.
But hey, if that's what you read, that's YOUR opinion. This has been mine.1 -
ShadowWolf44✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »ShadowWolf44 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »How is your playstyle over?
Honest question - my PVE stam sorc is my main thief/Silencer and she's a Breton and manages to clear the stealth content without either invisibility or dedicated stealth gear.
Don't get me wrong. I'm certain that, for a PVE stealth player who's used to having that extra small stealth radius, its a big adjustment. But having that only makes stealth content easier; not having it doesnt make it impossible.
I clear content solo. In all areas. I spent a lot of time gathering the gear I use, that is all based on stealth, flank attacks, etc. When mobs turn on you? You can't do enough damage to clear.
My Sorc is has 0 stealth, and can clear the same room. (speaking undaunted stuff here, atm), But, that toon is geared for that, specifically. My Nightblade is a totally different set up. It's damage isn't close to ANY of my other toons. However, I'd spent a lot of time getting the GEAR, that would bring my NB closer to those jobs. But now? It's basically useless, as I said.
Stealth attacks must have stealth to function properly. There was NO reason to get rid of the stealth passive. None. Other than maybe other classes crying, because they are NOT as stealthy.
But that is the FUNCTION of the game. Every class is SUPPOSED to be different, thereby making each one valuable, in it's own, unique way. It was never meant to be "All Classes are equal". That's just pathetic, tbh.
That are to be EQUALLY VALUABLE, not Equally balanced in talent. That's what makes characters unique.
Thanks for responding.
I guess I see where you are coming from. It sounds like, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you built your character in a particular way to play with a very stealthy combat style, and that combat style has been significantly nerfed with the removal of the Bosmer passive?
In that case, yeah, I can see where it would be frustrating.
Though from a purely gameplay perspective, that's far from the first combat method ZOS has destroyed. It actually reminds me a lot of the conplaints from damage shield users during Murkmire PTS. I also think of Tava's Blessing tanks and the pre-morrowind Blazeplars. Clever Alchemist gankers, nightblade saptanks, repeated nerfs to 1vXers, lots of nerfs to speed builds, etc.
ZOS doesn't make any guarantee that our preferred combat styles will remain viable. That's not what the "Play the way you like" bit on the ads mean.
Here's what it means.
So it sucks that you have to change the playstyle you prefer and have invested time and gold into. But that's just the way the game functions, ZOS has done it before and they will do it again.
Thanks for responding.
I responded to some of your responses below. I'll try not to over-lap, but no promises, lol. . Suffice it to say, I can no longer play the game I play, (PVE) which IS something they stated I could do. I've never whined about job adjustments, even one's I didn't really agree with. I adjusted. Many times. I have 8 toons, and all jobs.
What they did this time, was remove a large part of who my character IS, as a race, as a character, and why I chose to spend years leveling it. It's not like they ADDED something, that makes any sense. A speed boost? I HAVE speed. In fact, I have, at times, TOO MUCH speed, to the point where I cause myself to over-run things, get caught, etc. ALL my own doing. 10% MORE speed? Is a bust.
And, once again, I play SOLO. And only in PVE. I'm not well. So, I don't feel it's fair of myself, to put myself in a group event, when I may have to suddenly "log-off". Since this severance of WHO my toon is, this is really not a "Nerf", (other than for the whiners, who couldn't learn how to fight back against a stealth-blade, of course, whom ZOS bowed to, along with the "I want EVERYTHING" whiners), what it is, is an end to me being able to progress in the game.
This so-called "Play Style", is the ONLY way I've been able to find, that I can go in, solo, and defeat many mobs, most can't. Say a Tier III, 3 mob fight. It is extremely difficult, and extremely long. And, for me, it WAS extremely enjoyable. However, with this "removal"? I can't even get close enough to low-level mobs, to use my flank attacks, etc.
Some bring up stealth-cloak. If ZOS had added 3-4 seconds, to this ability? I could have worked with something like that. They didn't, however. They gave us a bit more speed, I have no use for. Speed does NOT help a 2.9 cloak. Whatsoever. You have to remember all the nuances of stealth fighting. To include the fact that many mobs are NOT "back-to-player", making it easy. That wasn't much of an issue, or, should I say, I found ways to deal with this, SOLO, with the passive.
That's impossible now. This is what I, and, I believe others, are speaking of. 2.9, even when you use it a few times, does NOT work. 80% of the time, it's not even close to enough time. You're seen, even if the mob just BEGINS to turn? Stealth is lost, as is damage. And, on big fights? That's the end.
Weird someone saw this as me, playing a "Martyr". I'm just stating facts, as they pertain to all I do. The hope, is for ZOS to change this mistake. But, if not that, to maybe do something like adding those few seconds to cloak. Maybe give something similar to Khajiit players, who are dealing w/very similar issues.
The main problem is this: These type of things usually take a VERY long time to resolve. THAT is what I mean, coupled with the above, when I say it's become impossible to play. This isn't whining, it's just fact, without some kind of a fix.
I have NO compassion for those whiny players, who, having all the money they'll ever need to blow on video games, can then use it, to buy out the crown store, thereby giving them a greater voice than others, and which, allows them to force changes to things that irritate them. See, otherwise, they are forced to actually DO SOMETHING, to become a good player.
So I have NONE. Because that is NOT gaming, that is manipulation. I will bust my ass to learn my job, race, class, skills, whatever. The same with my crafting, farming, etc.
When I post something, I try to be as honest as I can, in the hopes of effect change, not to hear myself whine, not to hurt other players, or their styles. I actually LIKE challenges, the hard work, learning what I need to do, to beat something.
This who thing? Is NOT that.
Once again, all just my opinion, and actual facts, as having to do with myself, what I'm dealing w/in rl, etc. NOT for any kind of "Martyrdom", which really made me laugh, or to force MY will on anything. I believe it will hurt the Wood Elf overall. And I don't believe those who love playing Wood Elf, will be willing to wait months, or even years, for a fix. But that's me.1 -
Zacuel✭✭✭✭✭
✭OopsShadowWolf44 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »ShadowWolf44 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »How is your playstyle over?
Honest question - my PVE stam sorc is my main thief/Silencer and she's a Breton and manages to clear the stealth content without either invisibility or dedicated stealth gear.
Don't get me wrong. I'm certain that, for a PVE stealth player who's used to having that extra small stealth radius, its a big adjustment. But having that only makes stealth content easier; not having it doesnt make it impossible.
I clear content solo. In all areas. I spent a lot of time gathering the gear I use, that is all based on stealth, flank attacks, etc. When mobs turn on you? You can't do enough damage to clear.
My Sorc is has 0 stealth, and can clear the same room. (speaking undaunted stuff here, atm), But, that toon is geared for that, specifically. My Nightblade is a totally different set up. It's damage isn't close to ANY of my other toons. However, I'd spent a lot of time getting the GEAR, that would bring my NB closer to those jobs. But now? It's basically useless, as I said.
Stealth attacks must have stealth to function properly. There was NO reason to get rid of the stealth passive. None. Other than maybe other classes crying, because they are NOT as stealthy.
But that is the FUNCTION of the game. Every class is SUPPOSED to be different, thereby making each one valuable, in it's own, unique way. It was never meant to be "All Classes are equal". That's just pathetic, tbh.
That are to be EQUALLY VALUABLE, not Equally balanced in talent. That's what makes characters unique.
Thanks for responding.
I guess I see where you are coming from. It sounds like, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you built your character in a particular way to play with a very stealthy combat style, and that combat style has been significantly nerfed with the removal of the Bosmer passive?
In that case, yeah, I can see where it would be frustrating.
Though from a purely gameplay perspective, that's far from the first combat method ZOS has destroyed. It actually reminds me a lot of the conplaints from damage shield users during Murkmire PTS. I also think of Tava's Blessing tanks and the pre-morrowind Blazeplars. Clever Alchemist gankers, nightblade saptanks, repeated nerfs to 1vXers, lots of nerfs to speed builds, etc.
ZOS doesn't make any guarantee that our preferred combat styles will remain viable. That's not what the "Play the way you like" bit on the ads mean.
Here's what it means.
So it sucks that you have to change the playstyle you prefer and have invested time and gold into. But that's just the way the game functions, ZOS has done it before and they will do it again.
Thanks for responding.
I responded to some of your responses below. I'll try not to over-lap, but no promises, lol. . Suffice it to say, I can no longer play the game I play, (PVE) which IS something they stated I could do. I've never whined about job adjustments, even one's I didn't really agree with. I adjusted. Many times. I have 8 toons, and all jobs.
What they did this time, was remove a large part of who my character IS, as a race, as a character, and why I chose to spend years leveling it. It's not like they ADDED something, that makes any sense. A speed boost? I HAVE speed. In fact, I have, at times, TOO MUCH speed, to the point where I cause myself to over-run things, get caught, etc. ALL my own doing. 10% MORE speed? Is a bust.
And, once again, I play SOLO. And only in PVE. I'm not well. So, I don't feel it's fair of myself, to put myself in a group event, when I may have to suddenly "log-off". Since this severance of WHO my toon is, this is really not a "Nerf", (other than for the whiners, who couldn't learn how to fight back against a stealth-blade, of course, whom ZOS bowed to, along with the "I want EVERYTHING" whiners), what it is, is an end to me being able to progress in the game.
This so-called "Play Style", is the ONLY way I've been able to find, that I can go in, solo, and defeat many mobs, most can't. Say a Tier III, 3 mob fight. It is extremely difficult, and extremely long. And, for me, it WAS extremely enjoyable. However, with this "removal"? I can't even get close enough to low-level mobs, to use my flank attacks, etc.
Some bring up stealth-cloak. If ZOS had added 3-4 seconds, to this ability? I could have worked with something like that. They didn't, however. They gave us a bit more speed, I have no use for. Speed does NOT help a 2.9 cloak. Whatsoever. You have to remember all the nuances of stealth fighting. To include the fact that many mobs are NOT "back-to-player", making it easy. That wasn't much of an issue, or, should I say, I found ways to deal with this, SOLO, with the passive.
That's impossible now. This is what I, and, I believe others, are speaking of. 2.9, even when you use it a few times, does NOT work. 80% of the time, it's not even close to enough time. You're seen, even if the mob just BEGINS to turn? Stealth is lost, as is damage. And, on big fights? That's the end.
Weird someone saw this as me, playing a "Martyr". I'm just stating facts, as they pertain to all I do. The hope, is for ZOS to change this mistake. But, if not that, to maybe do something like adding those few seconds to cloak. Maybe give something similar to Khajiit players, who are dealing w/very similar issues.
The main problem is this: These type of things usually take a VERY long time to resolve. THAT is what I mean, coupled with the above, when I say it's become impossible to play. This isn't whining, it's just fact, without some kind of a fix.
I have NO compassion for those whiny players, who, having all the money they'll ever need to blow on video games, can then use it, to buy out the crown store, thereby giving them a greater voice than others, and which, allows them to force changes to things that irritate them. See, otherwise, they are forced to actually DO SOMETHING, to become a good player.
So I have NONE. Because that is NOT gaming, that is manipulation. I will bust my ass to learn my job, race, class, skills, whatever. The same with my crafting, farming, etc.
When I post something, I try to be as honest as I can, in the hopes of effect change, not to hear myself whine, not to hurt other players, or their styles. I actually LIKE challenges, the hard work, learning what I need to do, to beat something.
This who thing? Is NOT that.
Once again, all just my opinion, and actual facts, as having to do with myself, what I'm dealing w/in rl, etc. NOT for any kind of "Martyrdom", which really made me laugh, or to force MY will on anything. I believe it will hurt the Wood Elf overall. And I don't believe those who love playing Wood Elf, will be willing to wait months, or even years, for a fix. But that's me.
Tldr. 😎
Saw martyrdom and was like "oh that's me!"
I can totally see you spinning your keyboard all over the place like some sort of Kung Fu master keyboard warrior.2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭My bosmer is DK, so i don't have cloak. So I quit using stealth at all on wood elf and for stealthy things now use my huge Nord nightblade with zero investment to stealth and zero pleasure from it.1 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ProbablePaul wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »It's not just about the numbers. It's about 25 years of lore. For 25 years Bosmer have been about 3 things: Pact, Archery, Stealth. This was represented in the previous passives with disease resistance (due to the meat mandate Bosmer can't drink beer, so they drink the juice from rotting flesh, so, yeah, disease resistance is a thing), the boost in exp for bow (which was as good a weapon boost as anyone had with bow), and the bonus to hiding. Now, Bosmer have lost all of that: poison instead of disease resistance, no bonus to hiding (and to add to the injury the insult of having a useless counter-stealth passive), and Orcs, Dunmer, Redguards, and Imperials are all better archers due to their new passives.
There are no Bosmer at all in this game anymore.
The OP claims to be primarily a PVE player and feels ZOS shows too much attention to PvP, so to reference any violation of the lore in this case is a contradiction because the time period in which ESO takes place has it's lore embedded in alliance warfare. So, to maintain an objective stance, and for any argument regarding using the lore as a defense, people concerned with this issue would need to determine where they stand. If the lore is only used to defend points as seen fit, and disregarded otherwise, it loses it's truth value as 'historical information' and instead becomes an opinion about which lore is most important.
In general, this extends to the argument that 'Bosmer racial changes violate their lore', because previously, nobody was this concerned about how true-to-the-lore Bosmer racial passives were - nor any other race, for that matter. I mean technically, per the lore, Bosmers should be able to consume what they kill, as well as charm simple minded creatures, but we don't see those things in game, nor have we ever seen complaints regarding how not having those things in the game violates the lore. So, why express convictions about the lore now? Is it possible that it's simply more effective to masquerade opinions around as fact (i.e. lore) than it is to make a case for the real underlying issue, that... the changes to Bosmer racial passives make some people uncomfrotable, and they don't want to deal with it.
There's actually a name for this kind of reasoning.
Actually, if you had bothered to read what I had written, I pointed out how the lore had been represented in the older passives, so your argument that 'lore didn't matter before why should it matter now' is garbage. Also, the charm animal thing was a gameplay element never really represented in any of the in-game lore, it was just another reflection of the Pact. It was going to be in the game, but it was hard to implement and had as little value in this game as it had in every other. In any case, before this change no race had a racial bonus to bow weapons, now 4 do and Bosmer ain't one of them. Bosmer had their stealth before, so there was no complaint. Bosmer had their disease resistance, so there was no complaint. Now all of that is gone, and it is contrary to the lore.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.3 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Darkonflare15 wrote: »ProbablePaul wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »It's not just about the numbers. It's about 25 years of lore. For 25 years Bosmer have been about 3 things: Pact, Archery, Stealth. This was represented in the previous passives with disease resistance (due to the meat mandate Bosmer can't drink beer, so they drink the juice from rotting flesh, so, yeah, disease resistance is a thing), the boost in exp for bow (which was as good a weapon boost as anyone had with bow), and the bonus to hiding. Now, Bosmer have lost all of that: poison instead of disease resistance, no bonus to hiding (and to add to the injury the insult of having a useless counter-stealth passive), and Orcs, Dunmer, Redguards, and Imperials are all better archers due to their new passives.
There are no Bosmer at all in this game anymore.
The OP claims to be primarily a PVE player and feels ZOS shows too much attention to PvP, so to reference any violation of the lore in this case is a contradiction because the time period in which ESO takes place has it's lore embedded in alliance warfare. So, to maintain an objective stance, and for any argument regarding using the lore as a defense, people concerned with this issue would need to determine where they stand. If the lore is only used to defend points as seen fit, and disregarded otherwise, it loses it's truth value as 'historical information' and instead becomes an opinion about which lore is most important.
In general, this extends to the argument that 'Bosmer racial changes violate their lore', because previously, nobody was this concerned about how true-to-the-lore Bosmer racial passives were - nor any other race, for that matter. I mean technically, per the lore, Bosmers should be able to consume what they kill, as well as charm simple minded creatures, but we don't see those things in game, nor have we ever seen complaints regarding how not having those things in the game violates the lore. So, why express convictions about the lore now? Is it possible that it's simply more effective to masquerade opinions around as fact (i.e. lore) than it is to make a case for the real underlying issue, that... the changes to Bosmer racial passives make some people uncomfrotable, and they don't want to deal with it.
There's actually a name for this kind of reasoning.
I agree with this. This just a case of lore vs gameplay. This hurts lore is a tool use by the player base when they feel like devs do not understand the lore but then they forget that it is the devs that determine lore and it how it works in their game. The elder scrolls series lore is always base on concepts of gameplay throughout all the years.Things will always change to benefit the game. Not the other way around.
How does this benefit the game? There had been 2 choices for a stealthy race, now there's one. Bosmer have a completely useless crap passive that does nothing except allow them to have 3 points to spend elsewhere. And these aren't the same devs who made Morrowind, Oblivion, and/or Skyrim, it's a whole different bunch. If they don't want to make an Elder Scrolls game, they shouldn't work on an Elder Scrolls game. For the past 25 years, Bosmer have been stealthy master archers with a unique bond with their forest; now they are stumble-footed guards, tied for last place as archers.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.2 -
Narvuntien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Their stam regen was buffed and unlike redgaurds sustain, it scales with buffs and you don't have to be constantly in melee to get the bonus.
They are still BIS for archer builds... on nightblade and warden usually. I can't find the lists with dps parses for all the classes and races but Bosmer is worse than Orc and Dumner but not by a lot then they are better for some classes than others typically for classes with more sustain issues. They can also do things like use crushing weapon and other resource-heavy skills more than other races.
2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Narvuntien wrote: »Their stam regen was buffed and unlike redgaurds sustain, it scales with buffs and you don't have to be constantly in melee to get the bonus.
They are still BIS for archer builds... on nightblade and warden usually. I can't find the lists with dps parses for all the classes and races but Bosmer is worse than Orc and Dumner but not by a lot then they are better for some classes than others typically for classes with more sustain issues. They can also do things like use crushing weapon and other resource-heavy skills more than other races.
I wrote this in another thread but it fits here just as well;
•••
Here is what Alcast has to say;
"Stamina Damage Dealer
Best choice: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Kahjiit
As a stamina damage dealer Orcs have the best stats, followed up by races like Redguards, Dark Elves and Khajiits. All are viable choices, so you can pick whichever race you like the most."
https://alcasthq.com/eso-race-guide-elder-scrolls-online/
So the recommendation is to choose basically ANY other Stam based race outside of Imperial for a Stamina damage dealer.
So yes we got a dps boost, was it enough? Apparently not.
We still lag behind the other Stam races, but now the racial we made a bosmer for (aka The FUN racial)is gone.
And we are supposed to be grateful for this?2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ProbablePaul wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »It's not just about the numbers. It's about 25 years of lore. For 25 years Bosmer have been about 3 things: Pact, Archery, Stealth. This was represented in the previous passives with disease resistance (due to the meat mandate Bosmer can't drink beer, so they drink the juice from rotting flesh, so, yeah, disease resistance is a thing), the boost in exp for bow (which was as good a weapon boost as anyone had with bow), and the bonus to hiding. Now, Bosmer have lost all of that: poison instead of disease resistance, no bonus to hiding (and to add to the injury the insult of having a useless counter-stealth passive), and Orcs, Dunmer, Redguards, and Imperials are all better archers due to their new passives.
There are no Bosmer at all in this game anymore.
The OP claims to be primarily a PVE player and feels ZOS shows too much attention to PvP, so to reference any violation of the lore in this case is a contradiction because the time period in which ESO takes place has it's lore embedded in alliance warfare. So, to maintain an objective stance, and for any argument regarding using the lore as a defense, people concerned with this issue would need to determine where they stand. If the lore is only used to defend points as seen fit, and disregarded otherwise, it loses it's truth value as 'historical information' and instead becomes an opinion about which lore is most important.
In general, this extends to the argument that 'Bosmer racial changes violate their lore', because previously, nobody was this concerned about how true-to-the-lore Bosmer racial passives were - nor any other race, for that matter. I mean technically, per the lore, Bosmers should be able to consume what they kill, as well as charm simple minded creatures, but we don't see those things in game, nor have we ever seen complaints regarding how not having those things in the game violates the lore. So, why express convictions about the lore now? Is it possible that it's simply more effective to masquerade opinions around as fact (i.e. lore) than it is to make a case for the real underlying issue, that... the changes to Bosmer racial passives make some people uncomfrotable, and they don't want to deal with it.
There's actually a name for this kind of reasoning.
What are you talking about? Before this change Bosmer's were WAAAAY closer to the lore then they are now. I don't think the majority of Bosmer players are asking for some special new ability to be created just for them.
Bosmers are supposed to be stealthy so give them inability that makes them better in stealth. Right now Imperials are better at stealth than they are, does that make ANY sense?
There are game mechanics that currently exist in the game that reflect what bosmer racials should be like. We don't need a new "Feed on anything like a werewolf" or a charm mechanics for them.
It's not hard to steer this ship back to something closer to lore. Drop the stealth detect ability, bring back improved stealth, and since apparently they need a dps boost anyway make the armor pen permanent, or increase it a bit. If you want to get really fancy and lore centric you can have it "increased armor pen while using a bow". See? How hard was that?
ESO does not exist in isolation, the races in this game need to reflect how the races were presented in the other ES titles. It's not really hard, there are mechanics that exist in the game that can easily be used.
Oh and by the way, there is a term for making up ridiculous new mechanics to include like "Bosmers should be able to consume what they kill, as well as charm simple minded creature" and then using that to dismiss counter arguments.
Edited by BlueRaven on March 14, 2019 2:03PM2 -
Gundug✭✭✭✭✭I’m curious what your system was for clearing large mobs before the patch that is crippled now. I know a few years back, there was a guy stealthing and one-shotting mobs with the two hander ultimate on repeat, but that’s all I’ve ever heard of.
I have a couple stamina based nightblades that use no stealth, but manage mobs easily with high damage and self healing. I have never run into any large group battle where stealth was at all useful or workable. Dungeons and trials generally have active anti-stealth mechanics near the bosses, so that playstyle is out of luck in those cases.0 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭Pretty sure a few years ago it wouldn't have been the 2H ultimate, just simple stealth and and heavy attack was all that was needed to one shot a mob. With 2-H you could wipe out a whole group of mobs with the splash damage. But stuff was nerfed, stealth's gone to Khajiit now, bonus damage out of stealth is gone too. It was sort of transferred to Khajiit as well since they can get a guaranteed crit from stealth.
If I was starting out again, my Bosmer wouldn't play overland near as well using the methods I used a few years ago.Edited by Bladerunner1 on March 14, 2019 3:58PM2 -
ShadowWolf44✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »My bosmer is DK, so i don't have cloak. So I quit using stealth at all on wood elf and for stealthy things now use my huge Nord nightblade with zero investment to stealth and zero pleasure from it.
It seems, to me, the eventual goal is to make ALL races as close to the same thing, in ALL things, as possible. This way, choosing a Character for development won't matter, they'll all be identical. Won't that be fun.
And the game died.2 -
Wildbloom✭✭✭✭I'm standing by the theory that there's something coming for thieving in Elsweyr. They've hinted at it before, and I feel like it would be appropriate for everyone to be just as viable as eachother in a pretty sizable aspect of the game IF they're willing to put skill points into it.
I'm a bosmer and I don't like the changes, but I'd rather see stealth expanded on in a way every race can benefit than only bosmer getting 3 yards on stealth back."Hello, Skellington Pal! How are you today? Bone dry, you say? I’d offer you a glass of water, but it’d all fall through! I need more coffee."
ZOS_GinaBruno, patch 5.0.1 PTS patch notes, 4/22/20191 -
Raammzzaa✭✭✭✭✭I’m sorry, I had so much fun playing ESO last night that I stayed up really late, and my eyes started glazing over trying to read that wall of text.
However, yes I agree Bosmer models are so so sexy! The Graht- climber’s active wear looks especially good on them. It’s always a pleasure to see a little wood elf head turner at the wayshine. 💁♀️ 😍 😘0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm standing by the theory that there's something coming for thieving in Elsweyr. They've hinted at it before, and I feel like it would be appropriate for everyone to be just as viable as eachother in a pretty sizable aspect of the game IF they're willing to put skill points into it.
I'm a bosmer and I don't like the changes, but I'd rather see stealth expanded on in a way every race can benefit than only bosmer getting 3 yards on stealth back.
In terms of PVE stealth content, which the OP is discussing, everyone is viable in the sense that they can complete all the stealth content.
As I said above, my Breton Stam Sorc did TG and DB and regularly does the old "pick-pick-stab" rounds without nightblade cloak or special gear/potions. I've run a MagDK partway through the DB line for the horse passive.
Those things - gear, potions, class skills, and racial passives - make PVE stealth content easier. Not having them doesnt make PVE stealth content impossible. My Breton stam sorc will never be quite as good as a Khajiit Nightblade, but that's not the same thing at all as not being "viable."
Now, it does seem to me that the OP finds that their chosen style of PVE stealth combat to no longer be viable, which doesnt surprise me since niche builds (or less charitably, one-trick pony builds) are always vulnerable to shifts in the meta. Again, as stated above in an earlier comment, ZOS' changes often force gameplay changes among niche builds. Which...doing regular PVE content through a stealthy combat playstyle is pretty niche and the character could easily be adjusted to play a more regular combat style and would be more efficient that way. Players either adapt and find a new playstyle/gear that works or move on. This sort of "I put time and effort and gold in my build only for it to be nerfed" is a constant refrain update to update from various players as things get changed.
So I guess I approach this from the angle where racial stealth passives, class stealth skills, or expanded stealth simply are not necessary to complete or enjoy the stealth content we already have in PVE. So while I understand the lore arguments, and I understand Bosmer player frustration with having stealth become harder, I don't see any reason that they are less viable for stealth content - less optimal, certainly, but not less viable than my Breton Stam Sorc or Dunmer MagDK.5 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭They are perfectly happy breaking lore as long as the top 1% streamers/class reps get to play the game the way they want (How it feels with lack of communication). Those people don't care about race or lore, they just want better numbers to attract more viewers. The fact that the game clearly states in multiple sources Argonians are resistant to poison, and they removed it is a good example of ignoring established lore.2 -
wedgebert✭✭✭✭✭They are perfectly happy breaking lore as long as the top 1% streamers/class reps get to play the game the way they want (How it feels with lack of communication). Those people don't care about race or lore, they just want better numbers to attract more viewers. The fact that the game clearly states in multiple sources Argonians are resistant to poison, and they removed it is a good example of ignoring established lore.
What's funny is that they could give Bosmer the stealth back on top of the stealth detection and everything else, and the 1% isn't going to play Bosmer because it's not a good race mechanically.
Unless you go bow/bow, you might as well go Redguard because they're passives are all superior except for the lack of poison resistance. As long as you can do a single melee attack every 5 seconds, Redguard have higher sustain (effectively 360 vs Bomser's 258) and their abilities cost less stamina in the first place. Sure a Bosmer can dodge roll, but trading 3000 stamina for what is usually a 2-3% effective damage increase is not worth it in the least.
And then of course Orcs are just better in all regards since their always on weapon damage boost is worth twice what the Bosmer have to waste stamina on.
Hunter's Eye is on par with Spell Recharge for being the worst racial passive in the game and at least Spell Recharge gives you a resource back instead of costing a ton of it.4