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DW Nerf
Sun7dance
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Hi all,
please let's talk about the new DW Nerf.
At first view, it seems quite fair to halve the glyphs, but that's not all!
DW players still have to farm two weapons. Yes, in some trials, vDSA, vBRP and vMSA you already get two of them.
But not always the same and usually you have to transmute one more weapon, which makes the hole thing more expensive than with any two handed weapon.
Besides, you still need 16 alloys to make both weapons gold. Why not halve that too? 25 crystals and 4 alloys for every DW weapon (and sword/shield) would be fair and consequent!
In some situations it's really unfair now. For example when you play DW on your backbar in PvP it's impossible to get a full berserker glyphe on your frontbar for some seconds. Why can not two halve berserker glyphs give one whole?
ZOS, did you really think about that?
Edited by Sun7dance on March 11, 2019 4:22PM please let's talk about the new DW Nerf.
At first view, it seems quite fair to halve the glyphs, but that's not all!
DW players still have to farm two weapons. Yes, in some trials, vDSA, vBRP and vMSA you already get two of them.
But not always the same and usually you have to transmute one more weapon, which makes the hole thing more expensive than with any two handed weapon.
Besides, you still need 16 alloys to make both weapons gold. Why not halve that too? 25 crystals and 4 alloys for every DW weapon (and sword/shield) would be fair and consequent!
In some situations it's really unfair now. For example when you play DW on your backbar in PvP it's impossible to get a full berserker glyphe on your frontbar for some seconds. Why can not two halve berserker glyphs give one whole?
ZOS, did you really think about that?
PS5|EU
30
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Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭One hand weapons should cost half the materials to make, and half the materials to improve or transmute. It just makes sense.
Honestly I'm glad they did something to try and balance dw enchants, but I think a better option would have been to just double the cooldown on enchants for one hand weapons instead of double the effect.5 -
Colecovision✭✭✭✭✭
✭Viable pve stam dps weapon set-ups
Bow/DW, Bow/Bow, Bow/2h
Not viable:
DW/DW, DW/2h, 2h/2h
So they nerfed DW and lied in the comments about the reason. They definitely thought about it and they wanted DW to do less damage. This was a way to make that happen. They don't care about the isolated impact of the enchantment. What matters is the total damage available to the skill line, most importantly in pvp. The fact that the crusher got nerfed in pve was a bonus, not collateral damage. They want group dps down.
Don't get too caught up in what they say in notes. Let their actions speak for them. They got what they wanted 1st try and left it alone.2 -
Oakmontowls_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Colecovision wrote: »Viable pve stam dps weapon set-ups
Bow/DW, Bow/Bow, Bow/2h
Not viable:
DW/DW, DW/2h, 2h/2h
So they nerfed DW and lied in the comments about the reason. They definitely thought about it and they wanted DW to do less damage. This was a way to make that happen. They don't care about the isolated impact of the enchantment. What matters is the total damage available to the skill line, most importantly in pvp. The fact that the crusher got nerfed in pve was a bonus, not collateral damage. They want group dps down.
Don't get too caught up in what they say in notes. Let their actions speak for them. They got what they wanted 1st try and left it alone.
But the crusher nerf doesn't lower pve dps, It just forces tanks to use a staff/bow backbar0 -
Baconlad✭✭✭✭✭
✭All they had to do was negate the second weapons trait and glyph. And unerf the trait values for the main weapon.6 -
Sun7dance✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭One hand weapons should cost half the materials to make, and half the materials to improve or transmute. It just makes sense.
[...]
Yes, of course! Sorry, just forgot to mention that.
Btw: We also need two kutas now to get two halved glyphs....well done!
Edited by Sun7dance on March 11, 2019 9:55PMPS5|EU2 -
russelmmendoza✭✭✭✭✭
✭Its those bleep thats always asking for nerfs.
Some bleep got ganked in pvp somewhere.
I swear they should just delete dw rather than slowly murdering it.
Let everyone use staff and magicka only.
So they can get their bleep balance.1 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I see it as the price to pay if you want 2 of them. You still get double the enchantments. Even at half strength, that is something. Using the meta, you get poison and abosrb Stam. Meaning you get to proc the poison status effect and you get Stam back. Something 2h can't.0 -
MaselClass RepresentativeLightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »I see it as the price to pay if you want 2 of them. You still get double the enchantments. Even at half strength, that is something. Using the meta, you get poison and abosrb Stam. Meaning you get to proc the poison status effect and you get Stam back. Something 2h can't.
Double the enchantment also means double the procs for example. If you wear sets that are tied to a specific proc condition, multiple damaghe proc enchants in cyro enable a higehr chance to make it happen.
We've told them to think about having two identical enchants pairing for one bigger, but it'S not that easy to do apparently and with elsweyr coming up,they have a looooooooooooot of stuff to get done in time.PC EU
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John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »I see it as the price to pay if you want 2 of them. You still get double the enchantments. Even at half strength, that is something. Using the meta, you get poison and abosrb Stam. Meaning you get to proc the poison status effect and you get Stam back. Something 2h can't.
Double the enchantment also means double the procs for example. If you wear sets that are tied to a specific proc condition, multiple damaghe proc enchants in cyro enable a higehr chance to make it happen.
We've told them to think about having two identical enchants pairing for one bigger, but it'S not that easy to do apparently and with elsweyr coming up,they have a looooooooooooot of stuff to get done in time.
Don't mean to sound bitter here, but you're also the ones who suggested halving enchantments as a possible solution (that disregards the fact that enchantments can't stack) in first place. ^^ Still wonder which of the reps have put it on the list...Edited by John_Falstaff on March 12, 2019 9:32AM2 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »I see it as the price to pay if you want 2 of them. You still get double the enchantments. Even at half strength, that is something. Using the meta, you get poison and abosrb Stam. Meaning you get to proc the poison status effect and you get Stam back. Something 2h can't.
Double the enchantment also means double the procs for example. If you wear sets that are tied to a specific proc condition, multiple damaghe proc enchants in cyro enable a higehr chance to make it happen.
We've told them to think about having two identical enchants pairing for one bigger, but it'S not that easy to do apparently and with elsweyr coming up,they have a looooooooooooot of stuff to get done in time.
Don't mean to sound bitter here, but you're also the ones who suggested halving enchantments as a possible solution (that disregards the fact that enchantments can't stack) in first place. ^^ Still wonder which of the reps have put it on the list...
Well I am not a rep, just a player like you, which reps are too, they don't get any compensation for the crazy amount of work that they put into being reps.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on March 12, 2019 10:05AM0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO , oh, I do appreciate the reps' effort, it's good to have a voice with developers (how good it's working, another matter, sometimes good, sometimes not, I'm stamDK main, feeling left to my own devices most of the time). I'm just replying to this particular point - sure, I appreciate reps telling developers that DW enchantments are in trouble and suggesting a scheme for them to be stacked. But sometimes things misfire, because that particular method of nerfing them was on the list of nerf options submitted to ZOS, so whole that future work could have been avoided by giving the nerf a bit more thought and, say, only disabling off hand enchantment - clean solution that would make DW enchantments identical to 2H and wouldn't nerf tanks along the way. Oh well, hindsight's 20/20...2 -
Nicalas✭✭✭My problem with the enchant change is that I cannot use multiple poisons instead. There is no reason that a dual wield player shouldn't be able to run different poisons on each weapon. The fact all poisons share the same cooldown is ridiculous. I should be able to run two unique poisons on front bar with a third unique poison on backbar.
I also cannot run a single enchant front bar for maximum strength. If I run two disease glyphs on dual wield I should get a full strength glyph.
Edited by Nicalas on March 12, 2019 11:21AM0 -
MaselClass RepresentativeJohn_Falstaff wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »I see it as the price to pay if you want 2 of them. You still get double the enchantments. Even at half strength, that is something. Using the meta, you get poison and abosrb Stam. Meaning you get to proc the poison status effect and you get Stam back. Something 2h can't.
Double the enchantment also means double the procs for example. If you wear sets that are tied to a specific proc condition, multiple damaghe proc enchants in cyro enable a higehr chance to make it happen.
We've told them to think about having two identical enchants pairing for one bigger, but it's not that easy to do apparently and with elsweyr coming up,they have a looooooooooooot of stuff to get done in time.
Don't mean to sound bitter here, but you're also the ones who suggested halving enchantments as a possible solution (that disregards the fact that enchantments can't stack) in first place. ^^ Still wonder which of the reps have put it on the list...
All of us agreed that dual wield was outperforming other stamina weapons because of the double enchantments, which is a fact based on parse data and the PvP infused meta with torugs was a thing because of it. Dual wield just had a free enchantment which led to higher stats and proc damage on it compared to 2h and Bow in both PvP and PvE.
We also told them that 1h&s needs a compensation for it (which is a different discussion) and if balance had been constructed around the old dual wield, stamina would need an overall compensation which it did not get.Edited by Masel on March 12, 2019 11:22AMPC EU
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Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »I see it as the price to pay if you want 2 of them. You still get double the enchantments. Even at half strength, that is something. Using the meta, you get poison and abosrb Stam. Meaning you get to proc the poison status effect and you get Stam back. Something 2h can't.
Double the enchantment also means double the procs for example. If you wear sets that are tied to a specific proc condition, multiple damaghe proc enchants in cyro enable a higehr chance to make it happen.
We've told them to think about having two identical enchants pairing for one bigger, but it'S not that easy to do apparently and with elsweyr coming up,they have a looooooooooooot of stuff to get done in time.
Poisons already overwrite enchantments, both on dual wield. It would seem they already have similar code in game to make this happen to have mainhand overwrite offhand. So unless halving the debuffs/effects that tanks/players can do with 1h/s is also a desirable condition then making the offhand of dual wield be suppressed seems like the better option. It has 0 effect on 1h/s and gives 1 full strength enchantment to dual wield rather than 2 half strength which is equivalent to 2h, bow, and staff. It also allows for the ability to use enchants that don't proc damage i.e. weap/spell dmg or stam/mag sustain at full strength.1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Masel , I'm not talking about the fact of the nerf, but of particular method of nerfing them (which method - halving both enchantments - was included into the list by reps). There were better (and simpler) ways, which is why I wonder how it got on the list in first place.Edited by John_Falstaff on March 12, 2019 11:46AM2 -
ZarkingFrued✭✭✭✭✭
✭Only main hand should be able to use enchants, and it should be a full enchant.1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Just FYI, if there was just 1 enchant at full effect it would be one with infused trait while the other weapon would get another trait resulting in again different imbalance. Not saying current solution was best, but you are all just fixing one imbalance with another.0 -
MaselClass RepresentativeJohn_Falstaff wrote: »@Masel , I'm not talking about the fact of the nerf, but of particular method of nerfing them (which method - halving both enchantments - was included into the list by reps). There were better (and simpler) ways, which is why I wonder how it got on the list in first place.
But what wouldve been simpler? Halving the benefit of infused? The problem was that enchantments on dual wield had twice the power compared to a 2h weapon, even without infused that was the case.PC EU
All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA2 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@SodanTok , well, on 2H, infused was and still is meta - so it's not like such imbalance is a thing in first place, ZOS didn't do much if at all to make all traits equal on 2H either. And it's not like DW have left the meta spot after the nerf. The attempt to balance 2H and DW by nerfing enchantments was misguided from the very beginning (and I strongly suspect that it was PvP-driven, as it so often happens nowadays), they should have started by giving 2H skill line an overhaul and maybe even introducing a dagger counterpart into 2H line. But instead they decided make up for deeply rooted 2H issues by creating yet another imbalance in already existing pile. Oh well.1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »SodanTok , well, on 2H, infused was and still is meta - so it's not like such imbalance is a thing in first place, ZOS didn't do much if at all to make all traits equal on 2H either. And it's not like DW have left the meta spot after the nerf. The attempt to balance 2H and DW by nerfing enchantments was misguided from the very beginning (and I strongly suspect that it was PvP-driven, as it so often happens nowadays), they should have started by giving 2H skill line an overhaul and maybe even introducing a dagger counterpart into 2H line. But instead they decided make up for deeply rooted 2H issues by creating yet another imbalance in already existing pile. Oh well.
Enchant imbalance was always a thing with DW compared to literally all other weapons. My point is new changes greatly reduced it and people that dislike the change for various imbalance reasons are just introducing different imbalanced solutions.0 -
Colecovision✭✭✭✭✭
✭John_Falstaff wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »I see it as the price to pay if you want 2 of them. You still get double the enchantments. Even at half strength, that is something. Using the meta, you get poison and abosrb Stam. Meaning you get to proc the poison status effect and you get Stam back. Something 2h can't.
Double the enchantment also means double the procs for example. If you wear sets that are tied to a specific proc condition, multiple damaghe proc enchants in cyro enable a higehr chance to make it happen.
We've told them to think about having two identical enchants pairing for one bigger, but it's not that easy to do apparently and with elsweyr coming up,they have a looooooooooooot of stuff to get done in time.
Don't mean to sound bitter here, but you're also the ones who suggested halving enchantments as a possible solution (that disregards the fact that enchantments can't stack) in first place. ^^ Still wonder which of the reps have put it on the list...
All of us agreed that dual wield was outperforming other stamina weapons because of the double enchantments, which is a fact based on parse data and the PvP infused meta with torugs was a thing because of it. Dual wield just had a free enchantment which led to higher stats and proc damage on it compared to 2h and Bow in both PvP and PvE.
We also told them that 1h&s needs a compensation for it (which is a different discussion) and if balance had been constructed around the old dual wield, stamina would need an overall compensation which it did not get.
Was DW/DW out parsing Bow/Bow? If not, what are you talking about in terms of out parsing the other stam weapons?Edited by Colecovision on March 12, 2019 3:51PM0 -
MaselClass RepresentativeColecovision wrote: »Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »Colecovision wrote: »Viable pve stam dps weapon set-ups
Bow/DW, Bow/Bow, Bow/2h
Not viable:
DW/DW, DW/2h, 2h/2h
So they nerfed DW and lied in the comments about the reason. They definitely thought about it and they wanted DW to do less damage. This was a way to make that happen. They don't care about the isolated impact of the enchantment. What matters is the total damage available to the skill line, most importantly in pvp. The fact that the crusher got nerfed in pve was a bonus, not collateral damage. They want group dps down.
Don't get too caught up in what they say in notes. Let their actions speak for them. They got what they wanted 1st try and left it alone.
But the crusher nerf doesn't lower pve dps, It just forces tanks to use a staff/bow backbar
Then they want to encourge ice tanking and shake up the meta. IDK for sure, but I really don't think it was an accident.
It makes no sense that after 5 years they would suddenly isolate one of the damage variables, want to make them the same across weapon lines and then do it in a way they 100% know is not the same.All they had to do was negate the second weapons trait and glyph. And unerf the trait values for the main weapon.
Some of us asked for that right after murkmire when the enchantments were grossly op. Then we asked again after this nerf was first introduced on PTS. It was also presented as an idea from the class reps. Zos very specifically chose this over that.
Conclusion: They did not want equal enchantments. They did want to hit S&B.John_Falstaff wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »I see it as the price to pay if you want 2 of them. You still get double the enchantments. Even at half strength, that is something. Using the meta, you get poison and abosrb Stam. Meaning you get to proc the poison status effect and you get Stam back. Something 2h can't.
Double the enchantment also means double the procs for example. If you wear sets that are tied to a specific proc condition, multiple damaghe proc enchants in cyro enable a higehr chance to make it happen.
We've told them to think about having two identical enchants pairing for one bigger, but it's not that easy to do apparently and with elsweyr coming up,they have a looooooooooooot of stuff to get done in time.
Don't mean to sound bitter here, but you're also the ones who suggested halving enchantments as a possible solution (that disregards the fact that enchantments can't stack) in first place. ^^ Still wonder which of the reps have put it on the list...
All of us agreed that dual wield was outperforming other stamina weapons because of the double enchantments, which is a fact based on parse data and the PvP infused meta with torugs was a thing because of it. Dual wield just had a free enchantment which led to higher stats and proc damage on it compared to 2h and Bow in both PvP and PvE.
We also told them that 1h&s needs a compensation for it (which is a different discussion) and if balance had been constructed around the old dual wield, stamina would need an overall compensation which it did not get.
Was DW/DW out parsing Bow/Bow? If not, what are you talking about in terms of out parsing the other stam weapons?
DW/bow was outparsing 2h/Bow and Bow/Bow. Enabling a different back bar weapon is a different story.PC EU
All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!
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Colecovision✭✭✭✭✭
✭DW/bow was outparsing 2h/Bow and Bow/Bow. Enabling a different back bar weapon is a different story.
So a second bow couldn't beat mixing a bow with another weapon and they needed to nerf DW. You have 2 bars and ignoring the damage from endless hail is required to declare the bow a lesser weapon. That's ridiculous.
Please bring the idea of mele dps to the table. 2h/dw, dw/dw and 2h/2h all have risks greater than hiding behind the healer with a bow/bow build. They should do the more damage. Were you with the us stam players arguing stam needed to do more than mag because of risk? Bow/Bow and Staff/Staff should be equal and dw/2h should do the most damage. The current set-up makes no sense.1 -
kathandira✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »Colecovision wrote: »Viable pve stam dps weapon set-ups
Bow/DW, Bow/Bow, Bow/2h
Not viable:
DW/DW, DW/2h, 2h/2h
So they nerfed DW and lied in the comments about the reason. They definitely thought about it and they wanted DW to do less damage. This was a way to make that happen. They don't care about the isolated impact of the enchantment. What matters is the total damage available to the skill line, most importantly in pvp. The fact that the crusher got nerfed in pve was a bonus, not collateral damage. They want group dps down.
Don't get too caught up in what they say in notes. Let their actions speak for them. They got what they wanted 1st try and left it alone.
But the crusher nerf doesn't lower pve dps, It just forces tanks to use a staff/bow backbar
I just use it on my healer in Trials on my back bar.PS4-NA. Breton Templar Healer, Bosmer Stamplar, Breton Magplar, Orsimer StamDK, Dunmer MagDK, Khajiit StamNB, Dunmer MagNB, Argonian Warden Tank, Altmer Magsorc0
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