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PvE Tanking Feedback

xaraan
xaraan
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I find it difficult talking about tanking on the forums sometimes, as the difficulty/skill level of tanking can be very different than something as measurable as DPS. If you are tanking end-game hard core content, but with a really good team - then frankly - tanking is fairly easy. Granted, you still want to have a solid setup and not mess up, but outside of that you won't get truly pushed to test the limits of the class. Same with more common place content like older and non-hardmode content (sometimes as we know you don't even need a real tank for some runs). The feedback I'm aiming for is more from experience with running with good groups, but not meta or BiS players and group compositions, where we actually are concerned with learning mechanics because we won't be able to burn through them, where you might be concerned with having a self heal on your bar as a dps, etc. When you are hearing that no one takes stam builds to vAS and they were all stacking magblades for the off heals, we were clearing vAS+2 with a stamblade and stamdk in the group and only one magblade providing off heals (just at a much slower rate of success lol).

The point is simply that I'm talking about doing the hardest content in the game without the most elite group of players on your team. As I've run a variety of content with various teams and guilds, I've noticed a big difference in what truly tests a class/build, so I'm giving my opinion based on these observations. As for what I've run, I have a tank of every class and I run hard mode end game vet dungeons and we are usually working on whatever the current HM-Vet trial is as well as mixing it up with whatever other trials we feel like doing week to week. I have the most experience on my DK, then my Warden and Templar tanks after that, I used to NB tank more than anything else the first couple years the game was out, but now I use that class about as often I use my sorc tank. Looking forward to necro tank, hopefully they offer skills similar to what I'm about to cover, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the existing classes either.

I will also not be using item sets to replace abilities. So pointing out Swarm Mother as an option for non DK/Warden classes is a non-starter as that makes the class weaker by taking away another monster set they could be using. (Though Silver Leash does help solve this issue now at least).

That said, I feel like there are a few key tools every tank should have (past taunting/blocking) - A solid Self-Heal, Self-protection, and some sort of group utility (and this is the area I think the different classes should have the most variety).

Self-Heals:

Good: DK, Sorc, Warden. Bad: Templar, Nightblade.

Here DK and Sorc have the best self heals. With Warden followed close behind, as their self heal isn't as strong, but they have several healing tools they can combine with it for a very responsive setup (that can even help the group on top of this). Nightblades and Templars follow it up (far in the back of this race) as a tie for worst. Nightblades were given a morph of cloak that offers a health-based self heal, but frankly it is horrible. I guess better than nothing, but it barely offers three ticks that hit harder than a good healers rapid regen ticks, combined with the fact that it's a HoT means it's not really useful to spam at all like you can with DK, Sorc or even Warden's (which has a stronger up front component than it's HoT). Templar has nothing to offer in the realm of health-based self heals, with really only breath of life as an ok option, which can go to anyone in your group in need of a heal, and has a high cost for very little return considering it scales poorly for a tank and won't hit that hard.

I think both Nightblades and Templars need some attention in this area for tanking. A morph of breath of life that scales off of health and is self-heal only would offer a good option as it would force anyone in PvP or even PvE to choose between a selfish version obviously built for tanking or a version that scales off magicka and offers more use to you as healer or DPS wanting to run an extra heal to help your group. As for Nightblades, they've already created a morph of cloak for this purpose (that I feel does the same thing for pvp where someone has to choose between the self heal or ability to go invisible) except that it's too weak to be useful in real end-game content (and the animation should be reworked as well). Maybe if they at least offered the first tick to hit twice as hard, then you could at least hit it a couple times in a row if you were in a desperate situation.

Self-Protection:

Good/Bad: I do feel like most of the classes offer a variety of protective abilities that leave them in good standing with each other outside of Nightblade.

DK has good self shields (that also offer a little shielding to group) and offer a heal buff when used, they also have spiked armor for armor increase and wings for reflecting ranged attacks and a couple of HoTs (which I feel fall more into protection than self healing as burst is usually needed when we look at those abilities). Templar actually feels very good in this area with their Circle giving them major buffs with bonus, a good shield that offers a protection buff for a short time and a (large in size) HoT that can offer some help to the group. Warden also does well here with Ice Armor providing a major armor buff not just for themselves, but for the group, protection buff for themselves when used, their shields are BiS for anything attack with a ranged attack, but do nothing for melee protection, and several options for small heal procs. Sorcs do have the major armor buffs with lightning form, but their ward is about as useful tanking wise as Templar's healing since it scales off of your magicka and not health. Fortunately their self healing options are fairly strong, but they do not have the variety of HoTs to put down as other classes. BUT, they do have an additional health bonus for running their clanfear self-heal that is a decent trade-off.

In this category I feel like Nightblade offers the least. You get a passive major armor buff when you use shadow abilities that does not seem like it lasts long enough compared to other classes. They have no shielding. Mirage feels useless now that evasion has been changed (AoE isn't something that most tanks really are concerned about). And their HoTs are fairly weak for a tank to run as path doesn't hit that hard in a tank build, but their self heal hits well enough that I guess we could call it a decent short HoT because it definitely isn't good enough to fall into the self heals above. I feel like Mirage could be reworked to be a more useful option for a tank here. Leave one morph as it is for a DPS or PvPer to use that actually want evasion, but offer one morph aimed more for tanking. I'm sure a variety of options could be thought up to make it different than what other classes already have, we could have a regenerating shield on top of the minor armor buffs it offers - something like giving 3K shield a second, if you don't get hit it stays 3K (it doesn't grow or anything) but if you take damage, then the next second it regens to 3K again - similar to how Lunar Bastion set works but for self only.

Utility:

DK offers small shields for their group, some small off-heals, and one of the most useful buffs in the game right now: engulfing flames.
In addition to that, they also have great crowd control with Chains and Talons. And they have the best "oh crap" utlimate in the game with Magma Shell.

Warden offers great buffing and healing for the group, even with tank stats. The only class that offers Minor Toughness. Has some a great mob control using portals and can snare with Ice, though no hard group CCs. They have a couple decent Ultimates: Trees with a decent heal for cheap cost and Sleet Storm for Major Protection.

Templars offer an armor debuff no other class has with minor pen, even though this is often run by a healer, it's worth mentioning as a positive I think and could free up a bar slot in a 4-man run. They can put down a large area HoT that offers a purify, they could run heals for others though they will not be strong as they scale from magicka. They have no real CCs (I suppose the morph of javelin could be an option). For mob control they are forced to rely on Silver Leesh and could run Bombard from Bow if needed - all very stamina intensive. Their healing utli isn't great for tanking, but Nova does at least offer protection if needed for a particular strat.

Sorcs have a great CC with Encase, even better than Talons for some situations. They have to rely on Silver Leash pull mobs. They don't really offer any group HoTs or other utility. Though I should mention from a selfish standpoint that Bolt Escape is a great and unique tanking tool for some situations. Negate is the best option they have class wise as a defensive ulti and Storm Atro can be a good buff/tool esp for a smaller group.

Nightblade has a ranged major armor debuff with Mark Target if needed, not really a go-to always use utility, but worth mentioning. Mainly because outside of that, they don't have a lot. No CCs, no pulls -- well, one CC - fear, but it does the opposite of what you usually look for in a tanking CC. Path offers a HoT but is pretty weak in a tank build. Shadows to offer Maim, so it's nice to have that tool coming from a magicka cost if needed, but they don't really have any stand out tools that make anyone happy you brought a NB tank. Consuming Darkness is their go-to defensive ultimate, which isn't bad especially with a decent duration.

What does all this mean for utility rankings?

Well, in the end, engulfing flames is the most useful single ability outside of just crowd control. Unless you are in a 4 man with your two DPS running stam builds, it's hard to pass up. And in a trial where you will often have several mag DPS using fire if not all, it's impossible to pass up. Personally, I think this is the one instance I would nerf instead of buff. I think engulfing should be a self buff only - increasing the damage of the fire damage of whatever DK cast it and would turn into a tool to use for a DK DPS to self buff. The only other option would be to treat this in a manner for every class to offer some kind of damage buff that does the same thing. Maybe Sorc Tanks could use an ability like a morph of mage's wrath to apply a lightning damage bonus for everyone in the group, or Wardens an Ice damage bonus (lol I know) -- the difficult thing with this would be the power creep of pretty much offering every class bonuses because DPS would be able to apply them as well. So I think the nerf to engulfing would be best for the game. Even if everything was equal on all classes, this skill would still make DK the go-to and as it stands, they aren't equal and their are a dozen other reasons that DK will still be go-to for BiS tank class.

I think Sorcs and Nightblades need the most attention in this area and Templars a little as well. Bringing a DK? Great - shields, talons, chains, eng. flames. Bringing a Warden? Great - toughness, ice armor, heals, portals. Those are the only two classes players are usually excited to see show up because they know they will be adding something to the run. Past that it's usually just whether or not you can get the base job done when you show up on other classes.

Nightblades used to offer something interesting with Sap Tank builds using Sap and Siphoning, but these have been nerfed to the point where they aren't really that great anymore for tanking and one of the skills isn't even used anymore for any build really outside of niche use. Could possibly rework sap to do more, if you don't want to let it regen as much as it used to, it could offer more group buffs, regen buffs, or even a short one or two second heavy snare, (like 70%) when you hit something with sap, that way if you were hitting it over and over again it could act almost as a talons/encase CC to keep mobs together, but wouldn't just be another hard CC like those and would create a constant cost that would make it hard to use that way for PvP. The healing morph of path could scale somehow based on your highest stat or average of all your three stats, so even if a stam or tank build ran it, it would still offer a decent heal.

Sorcs could have a morph of mage's wrath that wasn't an execute, but made a target more vulnerable to off balance - and I don't mean a better proc chance, but take away from the immunity cool down for a boss, allowing someone keeping this skill up to double the off balance uptime on a boss fight. This would also be something that a DPS would probably not run, as they would either leave it off their bar completely, or run the execute morph of wrath.

There are some out of class skills that are useful for tanking and help even things out: Silver Leash was a great change - it's not as good as having magicka abilities IMO that do the same thing, but if you have to have a pull for certain runs then it's a great option to have. Barrier is a decent defensive ulti and of course War Horn is the go-to tanking ulti for group runs. Time Stop is "ok" for a CC, the timing and now higher cost make it not a great option much of the time, but at least it's something.

In Summary:

DK is still the de-facto tanking king IMO. With Warden coming up right behind them offering some benefits that DK can't. This is how tanking balance between classes should be handled: Offer a couple of the same basic tools: self heal, self-protection and then offer some different utility skills that give each class something different to bring to the table.

Nightblades and Templars both need some attention in the self-heal area, even though some changes have been made the last couple years to make them better at tanking, they still have a ways to go.

And both NB and Templars plus Sorcs need some attention in the utility area.

Even then DK will still have the most to offer IMO, but if you narrow it down to wanting to run a given class to preference and not just need it will go a long way. Part of the reason tanking is boring lately isn't just the fight design, but also the lack of options for end-game tanking. Lack of class options and lack of gear options.


-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC
  • idk
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    xaraan wrote: »
    I find it difficult talking about tanking on the forums sometimes, as the difficulty/skill level of tanking can be very different than something as measurable as DPS. If you are tanking end-game hard core content, but with a really good team - then frankly - tanking is fairly easy. Granted, you still want to have a solid setup and not mess up, but outside of that you won't get truly pushed to test the limits of the class.


    No. Simply No. I am not sure where you got this opinion but I doubt it is from running with top groups.

    You make it out as though most anyone can tank on top teams because it is so easy. That is such a misconception. Granted, fights go faster, but expectations are much higher. Tanking is much more than taunting and blocking.

    Dodge rolling at the right time to eliminate the damage from a big hit is a prime example what a top tank has to do. They are often calling out phases of the fights and are the center of everything. Top groups work hard at their tactics to clear the content as well as they do. That does not make it easy.

    It is a very pivotal role and if you think it is easy then you are greatly mistaken . They are very skilled at what they do,.
  • Silver_Strider
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    I'm not experienced enough with Templar or Sorc Tanks so I really can't comment on them but on NB they've really been shafted in terms of Tanking. They keep losing more and more functionality every time ZOS tries (and fails) to bring NB DPS more in line and have offered nothing substantial to help NB tanks in any way, shape, or form. I even suggested some improvements for NB tanks back in Murkmire PTS to try and give NB Tanks (and Healers) some much needed utility, improved survivability and some sustain but that was obviously overlooked back then as well.

    The tl;dr version of my suggestions was this
    1. Alter Dark Vigor to include a 1/2% healing received effect for each Shadow Ability slotted
    2. Alter the Dark Veil passive to provide a 7/15% dodge change while blocking
    3. Increase the potency of the Dark Shade morph by having it scale on max Health and add a snare effect to its attack, both single target and AoE to give NB Tanks some incentive to actually use the skill for the extra damage, maim and soft CC.
    4. Turn Manifestation of Terror into a Root trap for even more CC, especially now that Time Stop got nerfed.
    5. Give Blur a synergy that applies Major Evasion to allies
    6. Alter Debilitate to apply Minor Lifesteal to the target
    7. Move Minor Protection from Dark Cloak to Refreshing Path
    8. Reduce the cost of Soul Siphon down to 100 Ultimate
    9. Reduce the cost of Funnel Health by 25%
    10. Have Reaper's Mark return X resources if a target died and Y resources if it doesn't

    Just these adjustments alone would do a lot to improve NB Tanks tremendously as it give them a much more complete toolkit, improving their self healing, CC options and sustain greatly while not being overly powerful either.
    Edited by Silver_Strider on March 11, 2019 8:37PM
    Argonian forever
  • MartiniDaniels
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    OP, you may notice that ZOS completely ignored nerf of enchantment on s&b bar which affects not only some non-meta tanks like in case of NB nerfs, but everyone because weakening enchantment is a joke now.
    Yeah, yeah in top coordinated groups some healer runs weakening on one of staves.. but in your average guild healer doesn't even know that he needs to run this enchantment now, and i don't remember anybody asked healer about his enchantments before trial, it's default ones, lol.
    So you understand that if even for such obvious fact like enchantment nerf and quite massive community response (a lot of threads here, concerned class reps etc), issue was totally ignored by ZOS, so in case of NB tanks nobody from "combat team" cares for sure, until one of devs will decide to roll out tank on his NB and will notice that it is trash now.
  • Silver_Strider
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    OP, you may notice that ZOS completely ignored nerf of enchantment on s&b bar which affects not only some non-meta tanks like in case of NB nerfs, but everyone because weakening enchantment is a joke now.
    Yeah, yeah in top coordinated groups some healer runs weakening on one of staves.. but in your average guild healer doesn't even know that he needs to run this enchantment now, and i don't remember anybody asked healer about his enchantments before trial, it's default ones, lol.
    So you understand that if even for such obvious fact like enchantment nerf and quite massive community response (a lot of threads here, concerned class reps etc), issue was totally ignored by ZOS, so in case of NB tanks nobody from "combat team" cares for sure, until one of devs will decide to roll out tank on his NB and will notice that it is trash now.

    It's easier to just call ZOS incompetent when it comes to actually balancing their game. I'll admit, some of the suggestions people make are ludicrous when looking at them with a critical mindset but even they provide some level of insight into a possible problem with a class/race/set/skill/etc. and shouldn't always be ignored, which is a major flaw with ZOS in how they handle problematic cases like that; They either ignore the problem or they go overboard with it, there's never an in between fix.
    Argonian forever
  • xaraan
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    idk wrote: »
    xaraan wrote: »
    I find it difficult talking about tanking on the forums sometimes, as the difficulty/skill level of tanking can be very different than something as measurable as DPS. If you are tanking end-game hard core content, but with a really good team - then frankly - tanking is fairly easy. Granted, you still want to have a solid setup and not mess up, but outside of that you won't get truly pushed to test the limits of the class.


    No. Simply No. I am not sure where you got this opinion but I doubt it is from running with top groups.

    You make it out as though most anyone can tank on top teams because it is so easy. That is such a misconception. Granted, fights go faster, but expectations are much higher. Tanking is much more than taunting and blocking.

    Dodge rolling at the right time to eliminate the damage from a big hit is a prime example what a top tank has to do. They are often calling out phases of the fights and are the center of everything. Top groups work hard at their tactics to clear the content as well as they do. That does not make it easy.

    It is a very pivotal role and if you think it is easy then you are greatly mistaken . They are very skilled at what they do,.

    Yes. Simply, yes. Stop being overly defensive.

    Where did I get the opinion? From experience.

    I've run with top groups, I've run with my group, I've run with bad groups, random groups, etc.

    Easy? No. Easier? Yes - a lot, in fact.

    Fights go faster, much faster, resources are tapped less because of this, mechanics matter less in some instances because of this and phases of mechanics are shortened, skipped, or just have to be repeated less. Healing is more on point (especially if you had 6+ Magblades in vAS back before they nerfed their off heals). All this makes a huge difference.

    But yea, there is a HUUUUUGE difference in tanking for a top group with all meta builds and experience vs. tanking for just a good group of players learning a fight that all happen to be playing together out of friendship. And I've also seen some of those top tanks come to teams like the one I normally run with and break from what they have to deal with.

    So if the "fairly easy" comment offends your sensibilities, then please take the clarification to heart. As I don't mean the job is overall easy - but compared to what I'm describing, running with groups like that is indeed like a vacation (for an experienced tank - which I am.) And any experienced tank would understand what I'm saying - even if your experience is only with 4 man content, we've all seen how "easy" the hardest content in the game is with a great team compared to with a team that's even a little less skilled/experienced/etc. and how the challenge level continues up as the other goes down. (And this isn't even a knock to skill levels, just a simple statement of what sort of challenges one sees with different groups).

    Edited by xaraan on March 11, 2019 8:28AM
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • xaraan
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    OP, you may notice that ZOS completely ignored nerf of enchantment on s&b bar which affects not only some non-meta tanks like in case of NB nerfs, but everyone because weakening enchantment is a joke now.
    Yeah, yeah in top coordinated groups some healer runs weakening on one of staves.. but in your average guild healer doesn't even know that he needs to run this enchantment now, and i don't remember anybody asked healer about his enchantments before trial, it's default ones, lol.
    So you understand that if even for such obvious fact like enchantment nerf and quite massive community response (a lot of threads here, concerned class reps etc), issue was totally ignored by ZOS, so in case of NB tanks nobody from "combat team" cares for sure, until one of devs will decide to roll out tank on his NB and will notice that it is trash now.

    You might be right. But sometimes they do see feedback, or something registers with someone one day based on how something is described or compared.

    Granted, it doesn't help when some posters (not talking about you) will nit pick points because they want to make themselves feel better - like arguing about me using the phrase "easy" in a description instead of working to understand what I meant, they work to defend an ego. This creates a back and forth that can often derail the actual feedback. I've seen this happen in several threads of various types over the years, even by players I've run with and know they are full of it but wanna flex for the community.

    My biggest concern with tanking feedback over the years has frankly been the people giving it. Many of the issues I talk about aren't going to be as noticeable to a tank in a top meta trial end game guild b/c their fights are shorter and heals more on point. They won't be obvious to players that only do pledges and avoid the hard mode new vet dungeons. Anyone that streams or makes vids is often treated as if they have more knowledge on a matter simply because they get a following. So the feedback ends up getting all jumbled together as some people point out disagreements based on different experiences.

    Some of the devs at zos know who I am, for good or bad, despite the fact that I'm not a known person to the community. I've run with a lot of folks and different guilds since this game was in beta. All I can do is offer my feedback, see which players want to contribute their own ideas and views and hope the ideas get seen.

    I may not be the most tactful with the way I phrase things, but in the end, I don't think my summary is off. Sure, anyone can pop up and say they got the job done on whatever class, but that doesn't mean there isn't a noticeable difference in the classes in what they offer for tanking.

    I don't think it's a bold statement to say DK is usually the best/easiest to work with for the job, with Warden coming up behind and from there you might argue Sorc or Tank or NB offer certain tools for runs, but none of the three really bring what DK and Warden do to the table. If ZoS doesn't get anything else from my feedback, then maybe realizing half their classes are viewed by most as bad for a role (I'll give them the benefit of saying Necro tank will be ok), then maybe they will at least look at some changes and new ideas. God knows the role needs it.

    Edited by xaraan on March 11, 2019 8:29AM
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • zvavi
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    Remember when they buffed enchantments and they worked on single target Dot's? Tanks could run dual wield back bar. then it got nerfed. Instead of adjusting blade cloak to less damage but more ticks to give that option to tank, nothing happened.
    Remember when they nerfed time stop and one handed enchantments because it was over preforming in pvp and DDS in pve? Tank cries were ignored about it. Saying "it is not a Nerf, you can still run a staff back bar". And time stop was a viable CC option for pve for NB and Templars. I am tanking a lot of dungeon hm dlc things in my DD oriented sorcerer (attributes and CP) but I feel like I don't give my group enough utility (maybe 6% mag crit when no other sorcs are around). the trade of double barring the pet for self heals and 8% health is just horrible.
    Just like some people here gave their opinion on what to change in NB to make them more viable tanks, it is my turn to do it for sorcs.
    Major vitality from restraining prison should be changed to minor vitality, increase duration and affect all group.
    Let empowered Ward give minor endurance as well.
    Change surge to give half the heals, have half the cooldown, but proc on all damage.
  • Liofa
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    So I think the nerf to engulfing would be best for the game. Even if everything was equal on all classes, this skill would still make DK the go-to and as it stands, they aren't equal and their are a dozen other reasons that DK will still be go-to for BiS tank class.

    This is my biggest problem in class viability when it comes to tanking. One class can give immense utility to both Stamina and Magicka DDs. Minor Brutality and Engulfing Flames benefit both sides, making DK Tank a necessity in both type of groups. But we have to think a little more in detail. Why can't we get a Magicka DK for Engulfing Flames and why Stamina DK doesn't give the utility of Minor Brutality? Is DK really the class that has is all when it comes to tanking or does it seem that way because DK DPS is bad? When I think about the last time I've seen a DK DPS, it was in Summerset and only a few amongst a horde of pet sorcs.

    My point is that this issue runs deeper than it seems and ZOS needs to focus on cutting the head of the snake. If Engulfing Flames is simply nerfed, the result would be DK tank being less viable AND DK DPS being even worse. It would be the exact type of change we complained so much about enchantments. Just because Dual Wield is super strong, SnB got nerfed. If Engulfing is nerfed, DK DPS players will say "just because DK Tank is strong, we got nerfed", which is right. End game players try so many combinations, do so many tests and actual trial runs. Yet, DK DPS falls behind in terms of utility, DPS and sustain. They are just not good enough. What I have been offering as a solution is that Engulfing Flames debuff should scale with Max Magicka and/or Spell Damage so that a tank can still run it but will have to sacrifice stats, making Magicka DK DPS a lot more viable and actually wanted in groups. Or simply having other classes increase different types of damage, such as Wardens increasing Frost, Sorcerers increasing Lightning etc. This will obviously increase the Power Creep but that's whole another issue ZOS needs to handle. Strictly talking about class viability, we need these kind of changes that will make all classes wanted in a group, preferably in different roles.
  • MartiniDaniels
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    OP, you may notice that ZOS completely ignored nerf of enchantment on s&b bar which affects not only some non-meta tanks like in case of NB nerfs, but everyone because weakening enchantment is a joke now.
    Yeah, yeah in top coordinated groups some healer runs weakening on one of staves.. but in your average guild healer doesn't even know that he needs to run this enchantment now, and i don't remember anybody asked healer about his enchantments before trial, it's default ones, lol.
    So you understand that if even for such obvious fact like enchantment nerf and quite massive community response (a lot of threads here, concerned class reps etc), issue was totally ignored by ZOS, so in case of NB tanks nobody from "combat team" cares for sure, until one of devs will decide to roll out tank on his NB and will notice that it is trash now.

    It's easier to just call ZOS incompetent when it comes to actually balancing their game. I'll admit, some of the suggestions people make are ludicrous when looking at them with a critical mindset but even they provide some level of insight into a possible problem with a class/race/set/skill/etc. and shouldn't always be ignored, which is a major flaw with ZOS in how they handle problematic cases like that; They either ignore the problem or they go overboard with it, there's never an in between fix.

    Yep, if we look at U21, it seems like it was made to balance PVP in a way to make all races to have some reasonable place in PVP while nerfing cancerous builds like gank snipers, health recovery exploits, invincible argonian templars, time stop spamming etc.. so changes for PVP are overall good. But in process of this PVP-related nerfs it all negatively impacted PVE and somehow tanks are always hit by it too. But not all tanks, DKs usually avoid this nerfs or even got buffed (damage shield changes), so ZOS thinks about top trial groups too in terms of group dps.. so why they ignored pleas to save full enchantment on S&B at a price of shield enchantment? Well, probably because in organized groups healers run weakening when necessary and if they doesn't run it in average pug/lfg group then in mid-content viability of healers is increased.
  • SoLooney
    SoLooney
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    Dk tanks are top tier, mostly cause of engulfing flames and giving minor brutality and they have amazing resource management, healing, and shields

    Dk dps are not used cause classes like nightblades just out dps them. We are talking about top end guilds and top scores, I dont care about just completes. Therefore, engulfing is huge for magicka dps

    Casting igneous also gives the group minor brutality, so that group utility is also covered. Not to mention chains. I know theres silver leash but having a unique chain that gives major expedition and the morph that refunds magicka if the chain fails

    So all groups want a dk tank and a warden tank complements the group well with giving minor toughness

    You hardly ever see other tank classes in end game content cause they dont provide as much group utility as the Dk. I also hear a lot of complaints in resource management

  • SoLooney
    SoLooney
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    Liofa wrote: »
    So I think the nerf to engulfing would be best for the game. Even if everything was equal on all classes, this skill would still make DK the go-to and as it stands, they aren't equal and their are a dozen other reasons that DK will still be go-to for BiS tank class.

    This is my biggest problem in class viability when it comes to tanking. One class can give immense utility to both Stamina and Magicka DDs. Minor Brutality and Engulfing Flames benefit both sides, making DK Tank a necessity in both type of groups. But we have to think a little more in detail. Why can't we get a Magicka DK for Engulfing Flames and why Stamina DK doesn't give the utility of Minor Brutality? Is DK really the class that has is all when it comes to tanking or does it seem that way because DK DPS is bad? When I think about the last time I've seen a DK DPS, it was in Summerset and only a few amongst a horde of pet sorcs.

    My point is that this issue runs deeper than it seems and ZOS needs to focus on cutting the head of the snake. If Engulfing Flames is simply nerfed, the result would be DK tank being less viable AND DK DPS being even worse. It would be the exact type of change we complained so much about enchantments. Just because Dual Wield is super strong, SnB got nerfed. If Engulfing is nerfed, DK DPS players will say "just because DK Tank is strong, we got nerfed", which is right. End game players try so many combinations, do so many tests and actual trial runs. Yet, DK DPS falls behind in terms of utility, DPS and sustain. They are just not good enough. What I have been offering as a solution is that Engulfing Flames debuff should scale with Max Magicka and/or Spell Damage so that a tank can still run it but will have to sacrifice stats, making Magicka DK DPS a lot more viable and actually wanted in groups. Or simply having other classes increase different types of damage, such as Wardens increasing Frost, Sorcerers increasing Lightning etc. This will obviously increase the Power Creep but that's whole another issue ZOS needs to handle. Strictly talking about class viability, we need these kind of changes that will make all classes wanted in a group, preferably in different roles.

    How would nerfing engulfing flames help the lack of Dk dps? Top groups still wouldnt bring dk dps if they're not parsing as well as nightblades, and also considering mag dks take a melee spot, and currently just get crushed by stamina dps, esp the stamblades. Not to mention mag dks have horrible sustain, a very complex rotation. Theres just way too many negatives with the mag dk, its just not worth putting the time in if you want to get into serious raiding. All the top groups are gonna want a magblade or stamblade dps, maybe a stam warden and magplar but dk dps are not a priority

    You have some interesting ideas about classes increasing elemental damage. Unfortunately, besides the mini trials, other trials are stam heavy


  • Liofa
    Liofa
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    SoLooney wrote: »

    How would nerfing engulfing flames help the lack of Dk dps? Top groups still wouldnt bring dk dps if they're not parsing as well as nightblades, and also considering mag dks take a melee spot, and currently just get crushed by stamina dps, esp the stamblades. Not to mention mag dks have horrible sustain, a very complex rotation. Theres just way too many negatives with the mag dk, its just not worth putting the time in if you want to get into serious raiding. All the top groups are gonna want a magblade or stamblade dps, maybe a stam warden and magplar but dk dps are not a priority

    You have some interesting ideas about classes increasing elemental damage. Unfortunately, besides the mini trials, other trials are stam heavy


    The quote I have at the top of my post is from the OP, not me.
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    Liofa wrote: »
    So I think the nerf to engulfing would be best for the game. Even if everything was equal on all classes, this skill would still make DK the go-to and as it stands, they aren't equal and their are a dozen other reasons that DK will still be go-to for BiS tank class.

    This is my biggest problem in class viability when it comes to tanking. One class can give immense utility to both Stamina and Magicka DDs. Minor Brutality and Engulfing Flames benefit both sides, making DK Tank a necessity in both type of groups. But we have to think a little more in detail. Why can't we get a Magicka DK for Engulfing Flames and why Stamina DK doesn't give the utility of Minor Brutality? Is DK really the class that has is all when it comes to tanking or does it seem that way because DK DPS is bad? When I think about the last time I've seen a DK DPS, it was in Summerset and only a few amongst a horde of pet sorcs.

    My point is that this issue runs deeper than it seems and ZOS needs to focus on cutting the head of the snake. If Engulfing Flames is simply nerfed, the result would be DK tank being less viable AND DK DPS being even worse. It would be the exact type of change we complained so much about enchantments. Just because Dual Wield is super strong, SnB got nerfed. If Engulfing is nerfed, DK DPS players will say "just because DK Tank is strong, we got nerfed", which is right. End game players try so many combinations, do so many tests and actual trial runs. Yet, DK DPS falls behind in terms of utility, DPS and sustain. They are just not good enough. What I have been offering as a solution is that Engulfing Flames debuff should scale with Max Magicka and/or Spell Damage so that a tank can still run it but will have to sacrifice stats, making Magicka DK DPS a lot more viable and actually wanted in groups. Or simply having other classes increase different types of damage, such as Wardens increasing Frost, Sorcerers increasing Lightning etc. This will obviously increase the Power Creep but that's whole another issue ZOS needs to handle. Strictly talking about class viability, we need these kind of changes that will make all classes wanted in a group, preferably in different roles.

    All good points.

    The nerf may not be the best solution, but I felt like offering some ideas for the problems I pointed out. Definitely not suggesting they are the best ideas in all cases.

    It does seem odd to me to offer such a large damage buff on the most used damage type from magicka in the game though. Maybe cutting the buff to 5% would be better than making it self buff only, but either way you are right and they need to make mag and stam DK DPS more viable. I don't remember the issue being as big a deal when lightning was more popular than it is now, so it could also just be that fire is a little too appealing currently vs damage types of lightning and ice.

    It definitely suffers from the same problem as some gear options like Alkosh (or even Ebon to a lesser extent) that end up completely eliminating choices. Make something so good that other options not worth running, even if those options are needed defensively or utility wise or just fun to use. Honestly I feel the same nerf should be applied to Alkosh. I know tanks will hate it, especially in meta groups b/c it would effect dps, but there is no other gear option in the game worth running over this set if your group puts out good enough damage worth buffing and most at least meet that mark for this set to feel useful. They will never create a new set that does the same thing or something stronger in heavy gear because then we'd just run both. I was honestly surprised this set didn't get the Major debuff treatement when Sunderflame and Night Mother did and think that either it should, or they should make it debuff for self use only and increase the dot damage proc to make it more viable for a dps to run. The other idea would be to create a new debuff category where it still offers a good debuff outside of the major/minor ones now, but let's new sets be designed that also provide that debuff so that new sets can come out that will be useful in comparison and not just stack. As it stands, it just eliminates any choice and variety for tanks. It's depressing to think that prepping for my necro tank will consist of farming a 5th set of Ebon (one of the oldest sets in the game)/Alkosh (a several year old trials stam dps set) and even more so to not even care about new heavy sets being added to dungeons and trials b/c none of them will be as useful as those. Again, maybe my ideas for fixing it aren't the solution, but IMO Alkosh being a must run (esp since it was created as a stam dps set) is definitely a problem.

    Sorry, I went off on a tangent there on gear, but my view is eliminating options for tanking definitely creates part of the problem for the role being not fun to play. We already are going to have to run a taunt (usually both types), a heal, a shield, some CC, etc. -- just like any class or archtype, there are key skills you will want to run no matter what, but support classes should have more options for utility load outs and engulfing flames as it stands eliminates options of other skills or other classes and isn't a core tanking tool like taunting. Of course you also want to add buffs and debuffs for group, but when it's the only class offering the option and the only build normally running it, there is definitely something not balanced about it.
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    SoLooney wrote: »
    Liofa wrote: »
    So I think the nerf to engulfing would be best for the game. Even if everything was equal on all classes, this skill would still make DK the go-to and as it stands, they aren't equal and their are a dozen other reasons that DK will still be go-to for BiS tank class.

    This is my biggest problem in class viability when it comes to tanking. One class can give immense utility to both Stamina and Magicka DDs. Minor Brutality and Engulfing Flames benefit both sides, making DK Tank a necessity in both type of groups. But we have to think a little more in detail. Why can't we get a Magicka DK for Engulfing Flames and why Stamina DK doesn't give the utility of Minor Brutality? Is DK really the class that has is all when it comes to tanking or does it seem that way because DK DPS is bad? When I think about the last time I've seen a DK DPS, it was in Summerset and only a few amongst a horde of pet sorcs.

    My point is that this issue runs deeper than it seems and ZOS needs to focus on cutting the head of the snake. If Engulfing Flames is simply nerfed, the result would be DK tank being less viable AND DK DPS being even worse. It would be the exact type of change we complained so much about enchantments. Just because Dual Wield is super strong, SnB got nerfed. If Engulfing is nerfed, DK DPS players will say "just because DK Tank is strong, we got nerfed", which is right. End game players try so many combinations, do so many tests and actual trial runs. Yet, DK DPS falls behind in terms of utility, DPS and sustain. They are just not good enough. What I have been offering as a solution is that Engulfing Flames debuff should scale with Max Magicka and/or Spell Damage so that a tank can still run it but will have to sacrifice stats, making Magicka DK DPS a lot more viable and actually wanted in groups. Or simply having other classes increase different types of damage, such as Wardens increasing Frost, Sorcerers increasing Lightning etc. This will obviously increase the Power Creep but that's whole another issue ZOS needs to handle. Strictly talking about class viability, we need these kind of changes that will make all classes wanted in a group, preferably in different roles.

    How would nerfing engulfing flames help the lack of Dk dps? Top groups still wouldnt bring dk dps if they're not parsing as well as nightblades, and also considering mag dks take a melee spot, and currently just get crushed by stamina dps, esp the stamblades. Not to mention mag dks have horrible sustain, a very complex rotation. Theres just way too many negatives with the mag dk, its just not worth putting the time in if you want to get into serious raiding. All the top groups are gonna want a magblade or stamblade dps, maybe a stam warden and magplar but dk dps are not a priority

    You have some interesting ideas about classes increasing elemental damage. Unfortunately, besides the mini trials, other trials are stam heavy


    Maybe they were replying more to me than you since I mentioned flat out nerfing it. The nerf was more a solution for the tanking aspect, not for DPS. I have mag and stam DPS DKs, but would not consider myself as experienced as some pure dps players or even vs. some of my other DPS builds (I normally run magplar for trials when I DPS). So I'm sure there are many ideas that could be offered up to fix DK for the DPS role, but my call for nerfing engulfing wasn't about that. It was about the fact that as long as that buff exists and fire damage being the most go-to damage type for mag builds right now, DK will always be more useful than any other tank class even if other things are balanced better.

    Making it self buff only would not nerf DPS DKs for their own parses, but yes, it would eliminate a reason to have them in a raid for the rest of the group - problem is, that reason is already eliminated b/c most groups will have a DK tank or at least one DK tank. So they still aren't really needed on DPS just due to that group buff.

    Perhaps Loifa is right that they should scale the buff off magicka/spell damage so a tank would only give a few % points of buff and a dps would offer up to 10%. This would still give tanks a small buff to apply, but make a magicka DK more appealing if the group wants that buff. Seems like it would fix both sides of the problem (though as you said, there are additional issues for magDK DPS).

    Edit: actually the more I think about, the more I think Loifa's idea is great. You could have the buff start at 15K magicka for 1% and then increase 1% every 2K up to 33K magicka for the full 10% buff. Then most tanks would only offer around 2-4% buff and a decently built magDK dps would offer the 10%. And it doesn't seem like it would be complicated computation wise to add in for the game to keep up with either.
    Edited by xaraan on March 11, 2019 4:52PM
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • Stroggnonimus
    Stroggnonimus
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    "Fights go faster, much faster, resources are tapped less because of this, mechanics matter less in some instances because of this and phases of mechanics are shortened, skipped, or just have to be repeated less. Healing is more on point (especially if you had 6+ Magblades in vAS back before they nerfed their off heals). All this makes a huge difference."


    While you do list reasonable issues and feedback, you sound like having no idea how end-game tanks looks like.

    Healing on point and shorter fights ? Yeah true, but do you understand end-game tank doesnt stand there blocking and enjoy shorter fight ? You're not only expected 100% uptimes, wearing only group buff sets, fast and massive thrash stacks, but also bring in as much DPS as possible. Stuff like sturdy goes through the window and instead you bring full divine with Lover mundus.

    Top tanks breaking in whatever groups you run in ? Lol. I suspect your "top" tanks weren't anywhere near that.

    Again, good post, decent ideas that are kinda agreed on by most tank players. Yet I just found it too amusing not to note how when given counterpoint to a statement you went full defense and started showing incompetence all around. :D
    Edited by Stroggnonimus on March 11, 2019 6:37PM
    Whoever said that argonians aren't sexy, is obviously not a sexy argonian.

    OG Argonian tank

    BLOOD FOR THE PACT !

  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    SoLooney wrote: »
    Liofa wrote: »
    So I think the nerf to engulfing would be best for the game. Even if everything was equal on all classes, this skill would still make DK the go-to and as it stands, they aren't equal and their are a dozen other reasons that DK will still be go-to for BiS tank class.

    This is my biggest problem in class viability when it comes to tanking. One class can give immense utility to both Stamina and Magicka DDs. Minor Brutality and Engulfing Flames benefit both sides, making DK Tank a necessity in both type of groups. But we have to think a little more in detail. Why can't we get a Magicka DK for Engulfing Flames and why Stamina DK doesn't give the utility of Minor Brutality? Is DK really the class that has is all when it comes to tanking or does it seem that way because DK DPS is bad? When I think about the last time I've seen a DK DPS, it was in Summerset and only a few amongst a horde of pet sorcs.

    My point is that this issue runs deeper than it seems and ZOS needs to focus on cutting the head of the snake. If Engulfing Flames is simply nerfed, the result would be DK tank being less viable AND DK DPS being even worse. It would be the exact type of change we complained so much about enchantments. Just because Dual Wield is super strong, SnB got nerfed. If Engulfing is nerfed, DK DPS players will say "just because DK Tank is strong, we got nerfed", which is right. End game players try so many combinations, do so many tests and actual trial runs. Yet, DK DPS falls behind in terms of utility, DPS and sustain. They are just not good enough. What I have been offering as a solution is that Engulfing Flames debuff should scale with Max Magicka and/or Spell Damage so that a tank can still run it but will have to sacrifice stats, making Magicka DK DPS a lot more viable and actually wanted in groups. Or simply having other classes increase different types of damage, such as Wardens increasing Frost, Sorcerers increasing Lightning etc. This will obviously increase the Power Creep but that's whole another issue ZOS needs to handle. Strictly talking about class viability, we need these kind of changes that will make all classes wanted in a group, preferably in different roles.

    How would nerfing engulfing flames help the lack of Dk dps? Top groups still wouldnt bring dk dps if they're not parsing as well as nightblades, and also considering mag dks take a melee spot, and currently just get crushed by stamina dps, esp the stamblades. Not to mention mag dks have horrible sustain, a very complex rotation. Theres just way too many negatives with the mag dk, its just not worth putting the time in if you want to get into serious raiding. All the top groups are gonna want a magblade or stamblade dps, maybe a stam warden and magplar but dk dps are not a priority

    You have some interesting ideas about classes increasing elemental damage. Unfortunately, besides the mini trials, other trials are stam heavy

    You could nerf Engulfing Flame so that it only provides the extra fire damage for the DK that applied it, increase the effect up to 15% to improve MagDK DPS while also reeling in DK Tank's utility on top of decreasing some of the power creep in the game.
    Edited by Silver_Strider on March 11, 2019 6:55PM
    Argonian forever
  • lassitershawn
    lassitershawn
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    Evasion actually isn't useless I have minor evasion from deceptive predator when I OT vAS and it is definitely noticeable and works on the vast majority of damage you take in there (storm, cones, bomb, jump, even light attacks from llothis). Also pretty good in vCR as MT it works on crushing and apparently nocturnal's favor (probably coded as an AoE so you can't dodge roll?). Presumably the NB evasion + speed would be much stronger.

    That said, I agree that DK and warden are the only viable tanks for endgame play. DK has engulfing which is 100% necessary on at least one tank (usually MT) when you are bringing mag DDs. DK also has magma for the ultimate "oh ***" button though personally I like temporal guard better on both DK and warden as a 2nd ult most of the time and igneous shield/GDB are ofc very strong. Chains is very important for some content as well. Warden (usually OT) on the other hand has the crazy powerful benefit of giving 100% toughness to the group with ease using blood altar and also provides a reliable synergy for good alkosh uptime (expansive frost cloak also makes your group a bit tankier and is super easy to use). As was stated by OP, Excellent ulti gen if you can utilize shimmering, which is a crazy powerful defensive tool in some circumstances (enraged llothis light attacks come to mind). Portals are an acceptable alternative to chains and using mag for chaining is much better than stamina (silver leash) for most builds.

    The problem with the support abilities on sorc/NB/templar is that they are usually easily covered by a DPS or a healer of those classes. A sorc DPS or healer can easily provide prophecy and conduits. It is hard to even think of a realistic support buff that could be added to say templar that couldn't easily be picked up by your templar healer. Warden and DK are the least likely classes to be used on DPS and this means that even if you wanted to bring a tank of another class it is harder to pick up the slack from losing these classes as tanks because you will lose out bringing a mag DK or a warden on DPS in most cases. So the problem becomes twofold.

    If tanks of other classes are to be buffed to the extent where they become desirable (and I'm not really convinced they should be considering the best tank classes right now are also the worst DPS classes and DKs in particular are also bad healers) it has to be done in such a way that only tanks can tank advantage of these buffs.

    If any other class is to be buffed as a tank I think it should be NB. Templars are already crazy strong on both DPS and healer, sorcs are utilized on both already as well, but nightblade healers are completely and utterly unused as support in any form. They also aren't nearly as dominant for mag DPS as they were just recently with templar and sorc buffs. Any buffs to tanks of other classes should be accompanied by DK dps buffs imo.

    I currently have been maining warden OT for one of my raid groups for a while now and am absolutely loving it (used to only tank on DK), but I'm super excited to see what necromancer will bring. I'm REALLY hoping it has some kind of support ultimate that is on-par with warhorn which is pretty much the only good ultimate for buffing DPS rn and for a long time.
    William Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
    Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
    Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
    Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade

    IR x8, GH x5, TTT x2
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Fights go faster, much faster, resources are tapped less because of this, mechanics matter less in some instances because of this and phases of mechanics are shortened, skipped, or just have to be repeated less. Healing is more on point (especially if you had 6+ Magblades in vAS back before they nerfed their off heals). All this makes a huge difference."


    While you do list reasonable issues and feedback, you sound like having no idea how end-game tanks looks like.

    Healing on point and shorter fights ? Yeah true, but do you understand end-game tank doesnt stand there blocking and enjoy shorter fight ? You're not only expected 100% uptimes, wearing only group buff sets, fast and massive thrash stacks, but also bring in as much DPS as possible. Stuff like sturdy goes through the window and instead you bring full divine with Lover mundus.

    Top tanks breaking in whatever groups you run in ? Lol. I suspect your "top" tanks weren't anywhere near that.

    Again, good post, decent ideas that are kinda agreed on by most tank players. Yet I just found it too amusing not to note how when given counterpoint to a statement you went full defense and started showing incompetence all around. :D

    I end game tank.

    Sorry to burst your bubble. Been tanking the hardest stuff in the game on going since launch and still doing it today. So trying to sling insults at me to stroke ego is exactly what always happens in these threads. So many people cannot accept that they have an easier time in those groups. You even tell me I'm right about all the things I pointed out and still try to tell me I'm wrong lol. So c'mon man. You just need to let it go and be honest. If you are with a full meta team scoring in the top trial runs every week and you think it's hard, then you definitely shouldn't try and run with a non-meta group of just generally skilled players going for a score period or just a complete.

    And it's not full defensive mode pointing out the obvious - it's defensive to make claims about someone you haven't run with and have zero knowledge just to try and win internet points and top it off with a lol. I mean, c'mon - pretty sad. Any tank trying to stroke his ego by claiming how hard it is to tank for a full #1 end game meta team is doing a disservice with their lies. I've subbed in for groups like that plenty and it's like a vacation. I'm not trying to make it sound like anyone can do it, as I said before, if someone is so upset by the phrasing, I pointed out that I wasn't saying it was 'easy' period -- Simply much, much easier than running with non-meta setup groups. And yes, some tanks definitely do not have the patience or desire to deal with those groups and get quickly burned out running with them when they have other options.

    And yes, I too think it was a pretty good post. But no, I don't find anything wrong with trying to head off the same egos that derail all these threads, where tanks that either run end-game top guild raids or non-DLC pledges show up to point out that something isn't a problem for them. Well - there is a reason for that and it's not because the classes are balanced. So you see me going 'full defense' right away, I'm talking about the same crap we've seen in threads like this for years.
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Evasion actually isn't useless I have minor evasion from deceptive predator when I OT vAS and it is definitely noticeable and works on the vast majority of damage you take in there (storm, cones, bomb, jump, even light attacks from llothis). Also pretty good in vCR as MT it works on crushing and apparently nocturnal's favor (probably coded as an AoE so you can't dodge roll?). Presumably the NB evasion + speed would be much stronger.

    That said, I agree that DK and warden are the only viable tanks for endgame play. DK has engulfing which is 100% necessary on at least one tank (usually MT) when you are bringing mag DDs. DK also has magma for the ultimate "oh ***" button though personally I like temporal guard better on both DK and warden as a 2nd ult most of the time and igneous shield/GDB are ofc very strong. Chains is very important for some content as well. Warden (usually OT) on the other hand has the crazy powerful benefit of giving 100% toughness to the group with ease using blood altar and also provides a reliable synergy for good alkosh uptime (expansive frost cloak also makes your group a bit tankier and is super easy to use). As was stated by OP, Excellent ulti gen if you can utilize shimmering, which is a crazy powerful defensive tool in some circumstances (enraged llothis light attacks come to mind). Portals are an acceptable alternative to chains and using mag for chaining is much better than stamina (silver leash) for most builds.

    The problem with the support abilities on sorc/NB/templar is that they are usually easily covered by a DPS or a healer of those classes. A sorc DPS or healer can easily provide prophecy and conduits. It is hard to even think of a realistic support buff that could be added to say templar that couldn't easily be picked up by your templar healer. Warden and DK are the least likely classes to be used on DPS and this means that even if you wanted to bring a tank of another class it is harder to pick up the slack from losing these classes as tanks because you will lose out bringing a mag DK or a warden on DPS in most cases. So the problem becomes twofold.

    If tanks of other classes are to be buffed to the extent where they become desirable (and I'm not really convinced they should be considering the best tank classes right now are also the worst DPS classes and DKs in particular are also bad healers) it has to be done in such a way that only tanks can tank advantage of these buffs.

    If any other class is to be buffed as a tank I think it should be NB. Templars are already crazy strong on both DPS and healer, sorcs are utilized on both already as well, but nightblade healers are completely and utterly unused as support in any form. They also aren't nearly as dominant for mag DPS as they were just recently with templar and sorc buffs. Any buffs to tanks of other classes should be accompanied by DK dps buffs imo.

    I currently have been maining warden OT for one of my raid groups for a while now and am absolutely loving it (used to only tank on DK), but I'm super excited to see what necromancer will bring. I'm REALLY hoping it has some kind of support ultimate that is on-par with warhorn which is pretty much the only good ultimate for buffing DPS rn and for a long time.

    Good to know about evasion vs. Nocturnals, I've yet to bring my sorc or NB tanks to vCR yet, so haven't really seen the effect of mirage in that trial. I still think most of the examples are very specific and really don't make a ton of difference vs any other class - not like it makes that class OP vs that ability vs anyone else. So I'd still think they need some buffing in that area, though it doesn't sound like you disagree with NB needing tank buffs.

    I do think they should make changes careful not to just flat buff the entire class in any role. Though I think you are wrong on Templar not needing any help - they definitely need a self heal IMO, as there are some instances you are in a really bad place not being able to take care of yourself a little bit. But this is why I was aiming toward making a player choose a morph of breath of life where it either self heals as health based or works as it does now. I would think most dps and healers would stick with the morph they have now and only tanks or certain tanky pvp builds would try the self heal version. It wouldn't really make the class itself stronger in every role, only for tanking.

    And the same would be for other classes as well. Same way they made NB's choose between invisibility or a self heal, they should make the other classes choose between a more DPS or PvP aimed skill or a tanky/support version of a skill. And though you are not wrong that some of the best tank classes are also the worst dps classes, I don't think we will see players stop fighting for buffs to those classes for DPS - and the hope would be that every class could offer something to any role I'd hope.
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    @xaraan both morphs of breath are really good. How about healing ritual, make that a percentage based heal, that scales with more people that you heal? Something like base 20% health but for every person you heal with it, you get 5% more? Up to 30%, on top of the base? So that it is still useful for healers, who will be able to hit more player but a tank would still get a 20-25% heal out of it, depending on if you count the caster. Would make Templar tanks different and able to help the team more.
  • DoobZ69
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    Stam DPS - Orc.

    Tank - DK

    Mag DPS - High elf

    Healer - Templar

    DPS - Nightblade

    Sorc - Petsies

    The devs want shoe-horned classes and races. Give it a rest.
  • Vajrak
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    Templar self AND group heal used to be the old clappy hands---with good timing, you were able to keep up 200hps pretty easily, as it had a major burst heal PBAoE and then a secondary heal 3s later, and the value was pretty high and easy to keep up. Honor the Dead can hit high also, and if you're worried about hitting a party member, you can simply look straight down and target yourself that way (I do this a lot in Battlegrounds actually still).

    Then of course you have your constant HoTs with good use of purifying light and ritual of retribution (or cleansing ritual, as you prefer).

    Maybe it's just me, but an 8k heal for 4k magicka, with 60% of the cost returned seems plenty fair (unbuffed stats pulled from my current tank/crafter, no longer optimized for tanking, just pvp and vetdlc). 1400 mag recovery (not including rune) and 21k mag pool with 35k hp pool...and that's not even counting that it gets boosts to the heal the lower you are.
  • xaraan
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    Vajrak wrote: »
    Templar self AND group heal used to be the old clappy hands---with good timing, you were able to keep up 200hps pretty easily, as it had a major burst heal PBAoE and then a secondary heal 3s later, and the value was pretty high and easy to keep up. Honor the Dead can hit high also, and if you're worried about hitting a party member, you can simply look straight down and target yourself that way (I do this a lot in Battlegrounds actually still).

    Then of course you have your constant HoTs with good use of purifying light and ritual of retribution (or cleansing ritual, as you prefer).

    Maybe it's just me, but an 8k heal for 4k magicka, with 60% of the cost returned seems plenty fair (unbuffed stats pulled from my current tank/crafter, no longer optimized for tanking, just pvp and vetdlc). 1400 mag recovery (not including rune) and 21k mag pool with 35k hp pool...and that's not even counting that it gets boosts to the heal the lower you are.

    This is normally what I do, the aiming yourself away to get a breath of life heal target yourself, but it's not always optimal in a trial or fight and an 8K heal (often not even that high) isn't even that high compared to Sorc and DK and Warden self heals. The cost return is an over time proc that doesn't stack from what I've seen, so if you have to hit Honor the Dead a couple times in a row, it gets costly. Even combined with their other HoTs, you still have better options for HoTs and burst heals on those other classes mentioned.

    Frankly, I'm not really after advice or how one tank squeezes out something viable in particular situations. I've tanked most of the vet hard mode trials with my DK, Warden and Templar and some with my Sorc and NB as well. So I understand the tricks we can use to try and make the most of the class. But I'm talking about how balanced the class is vs. other classes in the role. I'd be interested in seeing you tank downstairs with no healer to help you while tanking vCR+3 because personally it's feels like world of difference just doing the basic job of tanking on some classes compared to others before we even get to utility skills. There are just some situations where you really start to see the limitations from one class to another and IMO the classes should be more evenly balanced for the tanking role to offer more choices for players.
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • xaraan
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    @xaraan both morphs of breath are really good. How about healing ritual, make that a percentage based heal, that scales with more people that you heal? Something like base 20% health but for every person you heal with it, you get 5% more? Up to 30%, on top of the base? So that it is still useful for healers, who will be able to hit more player but a tank would still get a 20-25% heal out of it, depending on if you count the caster. Would make Templar tanks different and able to help the team more.

    I'm sure we could definitely have other options for a morph of a heal that would offer something for a tank besides taking away from Breath. My only thought process there was making a player choose between having a self heal or a good smart burst heal so that PvPers were not running around with both on their bar or something like that. But I mostly was offering 'some' ideas for problems I pointed out, just so I was doing more than saying "here are the problems" so there may definitely be more interesting concepts out there than some of my pitches.
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    xaraan wrote: »
    @xaraan both morphs of breath are really good. How about healing ritual, make that a percentage based heal, that scales with more people that you heal? Something like base 20% health but for every person you heal with it, you get 5% more? Up to 30%, on top of the base? So that it is still useful for healers, who will be able to hit more player but a tank would still get a 20-25% heal out of it, depending on if you count the caster. Would make Templar tanks different and able to help the team more.

    I'm sure we could definitely have other options for a morph of a heal that would offer something for a tank besides taking away from Breath. My only thought process there was making a player choose between having a self heal or a good smart burst heal so that PvPers were not running around with both on their bar or something like that. But I mostly was offering 'some' ideas for problems I pointed out, just so I was doing more than saying "here are the problems" so there may definitely be more interesting concepts out there than some of my pitches.

    Yes there is and I like your attitude, a lot of the feedback on the forums these days is a tons of "not my job to come up with ideas, even though I will criticize everything".
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