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What are examples of games with balanced Pvp?
Ayastigi
✭✭✭✭
Just to preface I don't believe that balance should be the end goal but still would like to know what balanced pvp looks like. It's cool to me to have classes/skills/gears with certain advantages because it mirrors how things really work. Nothing is balanced and things/people have limitations and advantages when compared with one another. This is why forced diversification seems stupid to me too, if something is inherently better than it's opposition why would we try to elevate the lesser instead of using the the best things at our disposal. I'm looking for different perspectives to this way of thinking though so drop your thoughts below.
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Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭halo 1, 2, 3. mmos can never be balanced.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on March 10, 2019 1:45PM15 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mario kart.Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.3 -
Karmanorway✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dont think there are any, but still some stuff is overperforming to such a degree that u cant help scratching your head and think wtf!? xD (psst, dont worry, im not talking about your precious Steel Tornado..)1 -
Zacuel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Games where I win and everybody else loses.
If that's not the case then we need to Nerf something.9 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ESO, theorectically...if you like your balance to mimic Rock, Paper, Scissors and every gameplay mode to favor organized groups with voice comms.
Its a peculiar form of "balance".4 -
Ayastigi✭✭✭✭Karmanorway wrote: »Dont think there are any, but still some stuff is overperforming to such a degree that u cant help scratching your head and think wtf!? xD (psst, dont worry, im not talking about your precious Steel Tornado..)
Haha I can't bring myself to use steel tornado because it looks too much like i'm rping as a ballerina1 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tbh I think ESO PvP would be boring if it was entirely balanced. It would also take away some of what you can accomplish with skill and theorycrafting I’d imagine. We don’t need 100% balance, we just need ZOS to move in and make a balance pass more than once every six months when things are legit broken or we see certain skills or sets start to become a part of every build even outside of its intended use. A good example of this is randoms and zerg pugs running Earthgore as a single player. This set is meant for group healing, not to be run as a solo set.Edited by Vapirko on March 10, 2019 7:12PM3 -
Shardaxx✭✭✭✭✭Call of Duty. It only takes a week or two to reach top level, at which point you have access to all of the guns and equipment, and so its a level playing field at that point with player skill and tactics being the deciding factor of win or loss. In the Blackout mode (battle royale) on Black Ops 4, its even better - everyone drops in with no equipment or skills, and you go from there. Nobody has an edge over you because of their character or previous super weapons they have acquired, its perfectly balanced in that regard.
You don't have people who can gank you from stealth, you don't have tanks who can't be killed. It's about where you are and what you do, and that's good pvp.
The way they keep buffing and nerfing the classes and races in eso shows that its still not balanced after all this time. I don't think it ever will be, there will always be flavour of the month and if your mixed group comes across a ball of these toons, kiss your ass goodbye, you have zero chance.PS4 - Europe - Shardaxx - Wood Elf Nightblade - Aldmeri Dominion1 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Balance isn’t everything, it’s just something that should aspired to like ending homelessness or world hunger. Not being able to accomplish the goal doesn’t mean you should give up.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You can't compare FPS PvP to MMO PVP, they are two completely different types of PvP.5 -
Lord_Wrath✭✭✭✭✭I guess it depends on which class can use more varieties of gear. If one class can whoop with more gear sets than other classes, thats balance. If a class can only be good utilizing a few sets, I dont think the class would need balanced.1300+ CP | Lørd Wrath | - Sorcerer - Palatine - Grand Master Crafter - 30000 Achievement Points
Launch Player - PC - NA - EP0 -
Jurand80✭✭✭✭starcraft, old quake, any game where you both start with the same set of tools.Edited by Jurand80 on March 10, 2019 4:10PM4 -
Ayastigi✭✭✭✭So in the community's eyes is it the access to gear or the gear itself which creates the imbalance?0
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So in the community's eyes is it the access to gear or the gear itself which creates the imbalance?
In my eyes, neither.
On a gameplay level, its ZOS' design choice for the game. Again, its Rock, Paper, Scissors. Most builds have something they are very good at, and a crippling weakness. So you can choose to either specialize in the one thing you are very good at and accept your weakness in certain situations OR you can choose to build to be a jack of all trades, but master of none. See the monthly threads from ranged-only MagNBs complaining about DK wings.
Where that falls apart is where occasionally you get things that are just so good and they have practically no weaknesses (Sloads, Earthgore) and eventually, ZOS usually nerfs those things. Those are gear examples, but we've seen it with skills too (Destro staff ultimate, stam warden cliff racers), and builds (poor dead Blazeplars).
On a individual player level, the imbalance is primarily due to player skill. ESO is a game that highly rewards a player's skill with their gear and their build. For all that people like to throw out hypothetical between two players of equal skill or claim that low skill players are "carried" by their gear, I see that as very rare in actual PVP battles (with the exception of the above examples).
I've been the inexperienced player wearing the meta gear with the meta build...and I still sucked. The player who is more experienced at PVP and more experienced with their build and their gear will almost always win out over the player who is less experienced, regardless of who has the "better" or the more meta gear/build set-up.2 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »halo 1, 2, 3. mmos can never be balanced.
Halo 5 is an excellent pvp experience. Halo 4 was not I agree.1 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MMORPG will never be balanced. It's caused by RPG nature.
For me, it's Fortnite. Everybody starts from absolute scratch. What can bring you victory? Skill, strategical thinking and a little bit of luck.Edited by Olupajmibanan on March 10, 2019 5:12PM2 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭There’s no game that is really balanced, it’s not about being balanced . It’s more so about how often the devs make attempts to balance the game and listen to community feedback.0 -
Saucy_Jack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How about this - ESO trying a Fortnite kind of thing?
- Load up a map with 100 people; call it a "skirmish". No grouping allowed.
- Everyone has a blank inventory, no CP and no skills; all HP/MP/SP set to some flat number.
- The map has chests that spawn, which may or may not give set pieces.
- You go around collecting gear pieces until you think you're ready to roll, at which point you hunt down other players.
- If you kill them, you get to loot them, meaning you get any gear pieces they're carrying.
- Use your collected gear pieces to get more set bonuses up to full 5-piece sets, which should give you an advantage over others.
- Last one to survive wins.
That way it becomes less about build and more about a) the gear you find and b) how you use the gear and the environment to your advantage.ALL HAIL SNUGGLORR THE MAGNIFICENT, KING OF THE RNG AND NIRN'S ONE TRUE GOD! Also, become a Scrub-scriber! SJ Scrubs: Playing games badly to make you feel better about yourself.1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Call of Duty. It only takes a week or two to reach top level, at which point you have access to all of the guns and equipment, and so its a level playing field at that point with player skill and tactics being the deciding factor of win or loss. In the Blackout mode (battle royale) on Black Ops 4, its even better - everyone drops in with no equipment or skills, and you go from there. Nobody has an edge over you because of their character or previous super weapons they have acquired, its perfectly balanced in that regard.
You don't have people who can gank you from stealth, you don't have tanks who can't be killed. It's about where you are and what you do, and that's good pvp.
The way they keep buffing and nerfing the classes and races in eso shows that its still not balanced after all this time. I don't think it ever will be, there will always be flavour of the month and if your mixed group comes across a ball of these toons, kiss your ass goodbye, you have zero chance.
Call of duty games are the opposite of balanced, they're made for players that don't want to learn yet expect to be at top.Edited by Ragnarock41 on March 10, 2019 6:44PM1 -
Ayastigi✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »So in the community's eyes is it the access to gear or the gear itself which creates the imbalance?
In my eyes, neither.
On a gameplay level, its ZOS' design choice for the game. Again, its Rock, Paper, Scissors. Most builds have something they are very good at, and a crippling weakness. So you can choose to either specialize in the one thing you are very good at and accept your weakness in certain situations OR you can choose to build to be a jack of all trades, but master of none. See the monthly threads from ranged-only MagNBs complaining about DK wings.
Where that falls apart is where occasionally you get things that are just so good and they have practically no weaknesses (Sloads, Earthgore) and eventually, ZOS usually nerfs those things. Those are gear examples, but we've seen it with skills too (Destro staff ultimate, stam warden cliff racers), and builds (poor dead Blazeplars).
On a individual player level, the imbalance is primarily due to player skill. ESO is a game that highly rewards a player's skill with their gear and their build. For all that people like to throw out hypothetical between two players of equal skill or claim that low skill players are "carried" by their gear, I see that as very rare in actual PVP battles (with the exception of the above examples).
I've been the inexperienced player wearing the meta gear with the meta build...and I still sucked. The player who is more experienced at PVP and more experienced with their build and their gear will almost always win out over the player who is less experienced, regardless of who has the "better" or the more meta gear/build set-up.
I agree with all of this. So it seems like the quest for balance in a mmorpg is moot because rpg elements do not encourage balance. So if we are striving to remove broken mechanics or gear from the game how do we come to a consensus on what fits the criteria for broken. Also, if something is game-breaking in a pvp environment but not pve how do we remedy it without affecting it's effectiveness in pve?Edited by Ayastigi on March 10, 2019 6:42PM0 -
Saucy_Jack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Get out.
My point is, since ESO launched, people have been bellyaching about the PVP, whether that's with the original Cyro map, or IC, or BGs. Every time I hear someone talk about PVP, it's NEVER to say "oh this great; this is fun"; it's always complaining because of this or that or the other thing.
So if people are always complaining about it, then maybe ESO should try another type of PVP - one that a LOT of people say is a LOT of fun. I don't play Fortnite myself; I'm just saying that the numbers don't lie.
If I ran a restaurant and customers were constantly complaining about the food, at some point I would have to look in the mirror and admit that it's not the customers being whiny that's the problem, but the service/food I'm offering.ALL HAIL SNUGGLORR THE MAGNIFICENT, KING OF THE RNG AND NIRN'S ONE TRUE GOD! Also, become a Scrub-scriber! SJ Scrubs: Playing games badly to make you feel better about yourself.3
