Mundus Stone Choices for Wrathstone and Beyond

Masel · March 2019

Heya!

I've been working on an excel sheet that lets you determine which mundus stone you should use on your Build (Thief/Shadow/Lover). It's fairly simple to use, just edit all the green sections to suit your build. You can disable the Lover Mundus stone when you know that you can reach the pen cap without it.

Keep in mind that other mundus stones are also pretty close to these three, but they simply are not 100% ideal in any scenario as of now, which is why I only included these three here.

Downloading it might be better for you, since if multiple people edit it at once, it might become confusing...

Generally speaking, the break-even point on Shadow vs. Thief depends on how much of both critical chance and critical damage you have without them. There's no uinversal break-even point between them as a result. So depending on whether you have high/low access to critical chance and critical damage buffs, the ideal mundus stone might change for your specific build.

As long as you cannot reach the penetration cap by other means, Lover is the way to go. For the other stones to beat the Lover, the requirement for Critical Damage and Chance is unrealisticially high.

You can find it on alcasts website:

https://alcasthq.com/eso-shadow-vs-thief-mundus-stone/

PLEASE download the sheet of you can and dont edit it online!

Have fun!

Narvuntien · March 2019

But I am still using Apprentice/Warrior

Masel · March 2019

Narvuntien wrote: »

But I am still using Apprentice/Warrior

Well they are subpar to the others at this point...

Thief benefits from the slow increase in critical damage we got through CP progression, shadow got buffed and if you can't reach the pen cap, Lover is still the way to go if you want the highest damage. Critical Chance and Critical Damage also have the advantage of boosting enchants/posions too, which Apprentice/Warrior do not.

alexj4596b14_ESO · March 2019

Masel wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

But I am still using Apprentice/Warrior

Well they are subpar to the others at this point...

Thief benefits from the slow increase in critical damage we got through CP progression, shadow got buffed and if you can't reach the pen cap, Lover is still the way to go if you want the highest damage. Critical Chance and Critical Damage also have the advantage of boosting enchants/posions too, which Apprentice/Warrior do not.

What is the pentration cap?

Beardimus · March 2019

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

But I am still using Apprentice/Warrior

Well they are subpar to the others at this point...

Thief benefits from the slow increase in critical damage we got through CP progression, shadow got buffed and if you can't reach the pen cap, Lover is still the way to go if you want the highest damage. Critical Chance and Critical Damage also have the advantage of boosting enchants/posions too, which Apprentice/Warrior do not.

What is the pentration cap?

By pen cap i think he means combines pen level to meet target resistances. Which used to be ~18k for alot of stuff in PvE, mobs being lower 9k but its a while since I've looked at PvE levels they may have changed.

Masel · March 2019

Beardimus wrote: »

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

But I am still using Apprentice/Warrior

Well they are subpar to the others at this point...

Thief benefits from the slow increase in critical damage we got through CP progression, shadow got buffed and if you can't reach the pen cap, Lover is still the way to go if you want the highest damage. Critical Chance and Critical Damage also have the advantage of boosting enchants/posions too, which Apprentice/Warrior do not.

What is the pentration cap?

By pen cap i think he means combines pen level to meet target resistances. Which used to be ~18k for alot of stuff in PvE, mobs being lower 9k but its a while since I've looked at PvE levels they may have changed.

Penetration cap is 18200 in PvE, the only exception being some bosses and mobs in vMA and overland. So that's the amount of armor you can "bypass" at maximum.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · March 2019

So I played with the tool you have provided, I couldn't get a way for thief to be the best one to chose from. At least on numbers that are close to my builds. And after pen is taken care of. Do you think they over buffed the shadow with 19%?

Hotdog_23 · March 2019

Interesting will have to play with when I get home.

One Think I do wish if someone could speak up for console players is we have no place to see our current penetration without manually figuring it out. Our character sheet does not show it. Below is a random character screen I grabbed off the net to show as example.

edit could not get picture to upload, sorry.

Mudcrabber · March 2019

The Mage and Tower also got a 20% buff this update from the CP changes, though the number shown under Active Effects only includes the Divines bonus.

So when I choose The Mage with 4 Divines it reports 2636 but I gain 3559 magicka, with 20% coming from CP and another 15% coming from Mages Guild and Undaunted.

It doesn't catch up to the Shadow's dps (at least on my build), but it narrows the gap a bit, and I have a little more magicka to use.

Masel · March 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

So I played with the tool you have provided, I couldn't get a way for thief to be the best one to chose from. At least on numbers that are close to my builds. And after pen is taken care of. Do you think they over buffed the shadow with 19%?

With low critical chance compared to critical damage thief can come out on top on builds, but only if you can reach the pen cap without lover...

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · March 2019

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Interesting will have to play with when I get home.

One Think I do wish if someone could speak up for console players is we have no place to see our current penetration without manually figuring it out. Our character sheet does not show it. Below is a random character screen I grabbed off the net to show as example.

edit could not get picture to upload, sorry.

Pc players are on the same boat. We do have add-ons that do add up what you got but they are not always accurate. Looking at maces percentage based pen. It is always better to just math it out yourself.

Hotdog_23 · March 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Interesting will have to play with when I get home.

One Think I do wish if someone could speak up for console players is we have no place to see our current penetration without manually figuring it out. Our character sheet does not show it. Below is a random character screen I grabbed off the net to show as example.

edit could not get picture to upload, sorry.

Pc players are on the same boat. We do have add-ons that do add up what you got but they are not always accurate. Looking at maces percentage based pen. It is always better to just math it out yourself.

That is sad to hear, then this would be a UI improvement we all need for ZOS, PC and console alike. Thanks for clarifying things for me

John_Falstaff · March 2019

I think that it will take 50% sharp base critical chance (with 195% base crit damage - minor + major force, 20% in precise strikes, non-nb/templar) for Thief to become equal to Shadow, all other things equal and full penetration achieved. If critical chance is higher than that, Shadow will be better. If things aren't perfectly optimized, it's even lower - without warhorn, have to sit at 42% base critical to start getting more benefit from Thief. I think it might be on low side even for mag builds.

Masel · March 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I think that it will take 50% sharp base critical chance (with 195% base crit damage - minor + major force, 20% in precise strikes, non-nb/templar) for Thief to become equal to Shadow, all other things equal and full penetration achieved. If critical chance is higher than that, Shadow will be better. If things aren't perfectly optimized, it's even lower - without warhorn, have to sit at 42% base critical to start getting more benefit from Thief. I think it might be on low side even for mag builds.

I updated the sheet so you can only edit the sections you're supposed to.

Seeking for an easy "fixed value" answer on shadow vs. Thief is understandable, but not doable because they are interdependent and since lover is also the best option for basically any build that doesnt reach 16004 penetration pre-lover, that one also has to be considered.

Please download the sheet and open it in your personal excel if possible, because as soon as multiple people edit the sheet at once it gets confusing. So please download it!

martijnlv40 · March 2019

Masel wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I think that it will take 50% sharp base critical chance (with 195% base crit damage - minor + major force, 20% in precise strikes, non-nb/templar) for Thief to become equal to Shadow, all other things equal and full penetration achieved. If critical chance is higher than that, Shadow will be better. If things aren't perfectly optimized, it's even lower - without warhorn, have to sit at 42% base critical to start getting more benefit from Thief. I think it might be on low side even for mag builds.

I updated the sheet so you can only edit the sections you're supposed to.

Seeking for an easy "fixed value" answer on shadow vs. Thief is understandable, but not doable because they are interdependent and since lover is also the best option for basically any build that doesnt reach 16004 penetration pre-lover, that one also has to be considered.

Please download the sheet and open it in your personal excel if possible, because as soon as multiple people edit the sheet at once it gets confusing. So please download it!

Just make it view only, so that people will have to download it!

John_Falstaff · March 2019

@Masel , I think it was read only right from the start, I've been editing a copy.

And that's why I said "all other things equal and full penetration achieved". I'm just comparing those two assuming one already knows they're not lacking penetration.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · March 2019

Masel wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

So I played with the tool you have provided, I couldn't get a way for thief to be the best one to chose from. At least on numbers that are close to my builds. And after pen is taken care of. Do you think they over buffed the shadow with 19%?

With low critical chance compared to critical damage thief can come out on top on builds, but only if you can reach the pen cap without lover...

All my builds have ~9k self pen and over ~40% crit before thief.

Masel · March 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

So I played with the tool you have provided, I couldn't get a way for thief to be the best one to chose from. At least on numbers that are close to my builds. And after pen is taken care of. Do you think they over buffed the shadow with 19%?

With low critical chance compared to critical damage thief can come out on top on builds, but only if you can reach the pen cap without lover...

All my builds have ~9k self pen and over ~40% crit before thief.

When i enter a build that has minor force available and 40% critical chance while reaching the pen cap without lover , thief comes out as the best choice for me. The break-even point is 43.52% for that. Adding more critical damage buffs shifts the break-even upwards, so thief is even better then.

Wraithseer_ESO · March 2019

The document is no longer available. Can someone upload it again, preferably to google sheets?

Masel · March 2019

https://alcasthq.com/eso-shadow-vs-thief-mundus-stone/

You can find it here

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · March 2019

Masel wrote: »

https://alcasthq.com/eso-shadow-vs-thief-mundus-stone/

You can find it here

. Khajiitr

Literally unreadable.

Masel · March 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

https://alcasthq.com/eso-shadow-vs-thief-mundus-stone/

You can find it here

. Khajiitr

Literally unreadable.

I didn't write it

klowdy1 · March 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Interesting will have to play with when I get home.

One Think I do wish if someone could speak up for console players is we have no place to see our current penetration without manually figuring it out. Our character sheet does not show it. Below is a random character screen I grabbed off the net to show as example.

edit could not get picture to upload, sorry.

Pc players are on the same boat. We do have add-ons that do add up what you got but they are not always accurate. Looking at maces percentage based pen. It is always better to just math it out yourself.

Which is super easy to do. There are only so many sources.the only thing I have been unsure of is, when you look at your character buffs on your character sheet, is the amount shown before, or after mundus effects (divine gear)?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · March 2019

klowdy1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Interesting will have to play with when I get home.

One Think I do wish if someone could speak up for console players is we have no place to see our current penetration without manually figuring it out. Our character sheet does not show it. Below is a random character screen I grabbed off the net to show as example.

edit could not get picture to upload, sorry.

Pc players are on the same boat. We do have add-ons that do add up what you got but they are not always accurate. Looking at maces percentage based pen. It is always better to just math it out yourself.

Which is super easy to do. There are only so many sources.the only thing I have been unsure of is, when you look at your character buffs on your character sheet, is the amount shown before, or after mundus effects (divine gear)?

If you are talking about the number you see under the buffs section, where you see your buff food and where you can dismiss your pets, the number shown for mundai is after the game calculates all your divines. So if you are wearing 7 divines with the lover, the number will show 4196.

klowdy1 · March 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

klowdy1 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Interesting will have to play with when I get home.

One Think I do wish if someone could speak up for console players is we have no place to see our current penetration without manually figuring it out. Our character sheet does not show it. Below is a random character screen I grabbed off the net to show as example.

edit could not get picture to upload, sorry.

Pc players are on the same boat. We do have add-ons that do add up what you got but they are not always accurate. Looking at maces percentage based pen. It is always better to just math it out yourself.

Which is super easy to do. There are only so many sources.the only thing I have been unsure of is, when you look at your character buffs on your character sheet, is the amount shown before, or after mundus effects (divine gear)?

If you are talking about the number you see under the buffs section, where you see your buff food and where you can dismiss your pets, the number shown for mundai is after the game calculates all your divines. So if you are wearing 7 divines with the lover, the number will show 4196.

Okay, that's what I thought. I never paid Stanton, and it would have been easy enough to check, but I'm not at my computer right now. Thank you.

Wraithseer_ESO · March 2019

Masel wrote: »

https://alcasthq.com/eso-shadow-vs-thief-mundus-stone/

You can find it here

Alcast places the same onedrive link you had in this thread, and it doesn't work for me even though I have MS account. Can you upload the file to another hosting service, ideally to google?

xbutch · March 2019

could someone post the correct link please?

eMKa8 · June 2020

You guys talk a lot about the penetration cap and that you need to surpass it. Apparantly Lover mundus is the way to go If you have t reached the pen cap?

Are we literally talking about the 18.2K pen cap here ? In other words , if i have a penetration of 14K (which is very high in my eyes), do i then still need to go for lover mundus stone??

I am now by the way at 5400 penetration , however have the impression this is high ... is it not ?

Long story short : how high does your penetration have to be before considering thief of shadow ?

OG_Kaveman · June 2020

@eMKa8 that 5400 pen is if you have all the pen debuffs you can on a target. There are use cases where that is not a thing that happens, like in the group finder or just with random groups. You will not have 14000 self buffed penetration, without giving up other more important stats.

To directly answer your question, your penetration, with both target debuffs and self buffs needs to be around 16000 before either of the other mundai out damage the lover. That might sound high to you but in a good group, it is rather easy. To show this, simply download the spreadsheet in this thread and play around with some numbers in it.

eMKa8 · June 2020

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

@eMKa8 that 5400 pen is if you have all the pen debuffs you can on a target. There are use cases where that is not a thing that happens, like in the group finder or just with random groups. You will not have 14000 self buffed penetration, without giving up other more important stats.

To directly answer your question, your penetration, with both target debuffs and self buffs needs to be around 16000 before either of the other mundai out damage the lover. That might sound high to you but in a good group, it is rather easy. To show this, simply download the spreadsheet in this thread and play around with some numbers in it.

Ok i get that in group play.
But i usually play in tamriel open world. So if you play alone (without groups) then you will have difficulties to have high penetration

Is it correct to say that if you play alone (no trials or dungeons) that then you should really try to first score 16K only on penetration before even considering spell critical and spell damage mundus stones ?

I feel like losing a lot of extra damage perks when investing all just in penetration .... not ?

Danksta · June 2020

eMKa8 wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

@eMKa8 that 5400 pen is if you have all the pen debuffs you can on a target. There are use cases where that is not a thing that happens, like in the group finder or just with random groups. You will not have 14000 self buffed penetration, without giving up other more important stats.

To directly answer your question, your penetration, with both target debuffs and self buffs needs to be around 16000 before either of the other mundai out damage the lover. That might sound high to you but in a good group, it is rather easy. To show this, simply download the spreadsheet in this thread and play around with some numbers in it.

Ok i get that in group play.
But i usually play in tamriel open world. So if you play alone (without groups) then you will have difficulties to have high penetration

Is it correct to say that if you play alone (no trials or dungeons) that then you should really try to first score 16K only on penetration before even considering spell critical and spell damage mundus stones ?

I feel like losing a lot of extra damage perks when investing all just in penetration .... not ?

I'm pretty sure overland mobs have about half the armor as dungeon/trial mobs do. Even if that's wrong, min/maxing for overland seems excessive.