The ESO dungeon dichotomy issue. Spoiler it's ZOS fault.

aaisoaho · March 2019

remilafo wrote: »

Hello boys and girls

This is in regards to the whole fake tank, fake dps or fake healer dungeon roles thing.

Everyone needs to chill out on this subject. Regardless of which camp you fall into "role matters" or "play as you want" people. The culprit here is actually ZOS with how ESO is build.

You hardline "roles matter" people who vote kick anyone not in a traditional role, you're a problem and create a toxic community.

On the other hand you hardline "play as you want" people need to realize that some parts of this game it does matter. 3hr to finish a dungeon is not okay! .. so when you queue as tank on vsc you better be a tank.

The point is relax people, this divide is ZOS fault. They give just a wonderfully customizable game and then decide to fit us into dungeon rolls.

Majority of content is easy enough that roles don't matter but some content it does. As a player you need to know when and where these difference are, stop persecuting people based on which camp you side on.

ZOS I personally found the queue with multiple roles better than the forcing we have now.

I beg to differ. ZOS is not the culprit here. The concept of holy trinity is almost as old as MMORPG and the raiding, so shall we take a peek behind the idea of such concept?

The main difference between a multiplayer RPG and a singleplayer RPG is the amount of players, right? This was a problem at first when designing a multiplayer RPG, because the non-playable bad guys. When facing a player, who should the monster attack? In single player games, the answer is clear but in multiplayer scenario, it really isn't.

The decision of the monster on whom to attack has lead to the concept of aggro. The monster decides who it should attack and to avoid "cheesing", it usually targets the healer because a player healing the other player is more dangerous than a player dealing damage, because the healer can nullify the monster's damage by healing. For the next piece in this journey to the trinity, we need to sidetrack into a quite fundamental part of RPGs - stats!

Usually RPGs have stats like resistance, health, some casting resource, cast power etc. When building your character, you need to sacrifice something to gain something. These resources are tied into the final part of the holy trinity - tank. People have figured out that encounters are easiest when they have a person with high resistances to take the aggro. This is tought to create a meaningful way to play the game and so the devs have enforced this by having a taunt in game - a way to ensure the monster goes after a player using the taunt.

Now, the rest of the pieces of the trinity are the damage dealer and the healer. In addition of the tank, they form the trinity. Because character's stats are in a way of gain some, lose some, you end up with a system where trying to mix roles, you end up with an underperforming character. To be honest, if the game didn't have the stat system the way it does, we would just have unkillable terminators decimating everything and that would eat up the enjoyment and make the game boring.

If you want to go witch hunting, I believe the guilty parties are: the industry, the playerbase and the developers. They are the main culprits behind the trinity,and the developers are the least guilty of them all, they didn't come up with it, they just adopted it, copied it.

And on the case of "play the way you want" is too vague to draw a line. You can for example interprete it as: any class can perform any role and succeed.

Now, I do believe we should strive for less toxic environment and everybody should work for it and aspire it. If you encounter toxicity, do not pass it forward, but if you encounter kindness, please pass it on.

Ogou · March 2019

remilafo wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

My solution: either allow players to also choose the group composition they want or change the group finder into a lobby where players can post what they want to do and others can join (think old monster hunter lobbies or the Overwatch group finder).

Im not familiar with the grouping systems from those games. Can you explain briefly?

Basically, anyone can create a lobby where they can declare a specific goal (farming dungeon, pledges, etc...), what kind of teammates they are looking for (anyone, only new players, only experienced players, etc...) and other information (preferred group composition, chat required, etc...). These then get added to a board where other players can browse and join groups with similar interests. I would add pictures if I knew how but you should get the general idea.

Kalgert · March 2019

Frankly, there is one thing I feel like makes ESO a bit of a weak game in terms of it being an MMO woth a PvE focus. Or well, a feature that is both a strength and a weakness.

The way character building is and how freeform it is, does not compliment dungeons and their tightly designed mechanics. As it is a game that seems to encourage people to go wild with their character composition, but then also cough nervously, turn around and say "Only not really", if the person also has ambitions in wanting to try more structured activities.

For characters who's abilities are set in stone, it of course makes sense and the two elements compliment one another, as people still have a good chance of getting in to harder activities, with gear being a stepping stone, as opposed to being something to bog people down and stress them out.

For ESO I just... Don't see it, woth the freeform character building, the itemization's inane nature, and how the tightly designed dungeon mechanics seem like they'd be more at home in a different MMO.

klowdy1 · March 2019

What is "fake dps?" I dont believe for one second people queue up for a dungeon as dps, just to try to be a second tank, or healer.

Kalgert · March 2019

klowdy1 wrote: »

What is "fake dps?" I dont believe for one second people queue up for a dungeon as dps, just to try to be a second tank, or healer.

Your guess is as good as mine. I suppose "Fake DPS" stands for "Someone with suboptimal DPS"? And even then, it ain't really someone faking the role, more like... Just not doing the role so well.

It seems that people just clump the false roles together with poorly performed roles. You can be seen as a fake tank just by getting beaten down by a boss.

remilafo · March 2019

Ogou wrote: »

remilafo wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

My solution: either allow players to also choose the group composition they want or change the group finder into a lobby where players can post what they want to do and others can join (think old monster hunter lobbies or the Overwatch group finder).

Im not familiar with the grouping systems from those games. Can you explain briefly?

Basically, anyone can create a lobby where they can declare a specific goal (farming dungeon, pledges, etc...), what kind of teammates they are looking for (anyone, only new players, only experienced players, etc...) and other information (preferred group composition, chat required, etc...). These then get added to a board where other players can browse and join groups with similar interests. I would add pictures if I knew how but you should get the general idea.

Okay i get it. Sounds like you could be sitting alone for some time if you are looking for something niche. I wonder if a system like that would work for ESO.

If i were to guess i think it would work great for popular things but be worse than the current system for less popular things.

klowdy1 wrote: »

What is "fake dps?" I dont believe for one second people queue up for a dungeon as dps, just to try to be a second tank, or healer.

Kalgert wrote: »

klowdy1 wrote: »

What is "fake dps?" I dont believe for one second people queue up for a dungeon as dps, just to try to be a second tank, or healer.

Your guess is as good as mine. I suppose "Fake DPS" stands for "Someone with suboptimal DPS"? And even then, it ain't really someone faking the role, more like... Just not doing the role so well.

It seems that people just clump the false roles together with poorly performed roles. You can be seen as a fake tank just by getting beaten down by a boss.

Yes it's a dps that is doing sub-optimal dps. Why a dungeon group can fail has multiple reasons but dps being too low is one of them, as is lack of a taunt or lack of heals.

In my opinion most people think DPS is the easy role to perform but i think it's actually the hardest and most complicated to perform. Healing in ESO is the easiest (like supremely easy compared to other mmos) and tank is also absurdly easy (just taunt and don't die). At the same time DPS is the most common role, so yeah there are so called dps's out there that think sub 10K dps in vet dungeons is okay, IT"S NOT.. so yes fake dps..

kmcaj · March 2019

Kalgert wrote: »

klowdy1 wrote: »

What is "fake dps?" I dont believe for one second people queue up for a dungeon as dps, just to try to be a second tank, or healer.

Your guess is as good as mine. I suppose "Fake DPS" stands for "Someone with suboptimal DPS"? And even then, it ain't really someone faking the role, more like... Just not doing the role so well.

It seems that people just clump the false roles together with poorly performed roles. You can be seen as a fake tank just by getting beaten down by a boss.

I agree I think. My low hitting 630cp DPS isn't a fake DPS, just not not good at the role. Still better at DPS role than as a tank or healer.

Ogou · March 2019

remilafo wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

remilafo wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

My solution: either allow players to also choose the group composition they want or change the group finder into a lobby where players can post what they want to do and others can join (think old monster hunter lobbies or the Overwatch group finder).

Im not familiar with the grouping systems from those games. Can you explain briefly?

Basically, anyone can create a lobby where they can declare a specific goal (farming dungeon, pledges, etc...), what kind of teammates they are looking for (anyone, only new players, only experienced players, etc...) and other information (preferred group composition, chat required, etc...). These then get added to a board where other players can browse and join groups with similar interests. I would add pictures if I knew how but you should get the general idea.

Okay i get it. Sounds like you could be sitting alone for some time if you are looking for something niche. I wonder if a system like that would work for ESO.

If i were to guess i think it would work great for popular things but be worse than the current system for less popular things.

That could be a problem, yes. But there aren't really that many niche dungeon runs in ESO. There's always people farming stuff, going for achievements, doing quests, getting first clears, etc... It also removes the frustration of having people leave the group because the dungeon they got is harder than what they want.

So the trade off is worth it in my opinion.

Ertosi · March 2019

remilafo wrote: »

In my opinion most people think DPS is the easy role to perform but i think it's actually the hardest and most complicated to perform. Healing in ESO is the easiest (like supremely easy compared to other mmos) and tank is also absurdly easy (just taunt and don't die). At the same time DPS is the most common role, so yeah there are so called dps's out there that think sub 10K dps in vet dungeons is okay, IT"S NOT.. so yes fake dps..

This is a extraordinarily biased perspective. If DPS was so hard, then why does everyone and their mom want to play it? Cause it's easy. Anyone with your perspective mainly plays DPS and is most assuredly taking their healers and tanks for granted. However, let's be fair and say that doing it well and hitting crazy high DPS is hard, but few can do so and what is "fake" shouldn't be judged by those few.

If you think healing is easiest then you're not a healer. You've got a lot of multitasking going on if you want to be fully contributing to the group. Especially if you're with a group that's not keeping things tight.

If you think tank is absurdly easy, then you're not a tank. I would be bold enough to say tanks have to do the most multitasking and have to have the strongest grasp of mechanics in order to fully perform their role. You're not just taunting bosses, you're managing the entire fight to help it progress smoothly.

For a more honest view on which roles are easy and which are hard, we need to look back to Group Finder. Which roles are in most demand? The reality is quite reversed from your perspective.

SidraWillowsky · March 2019

Ertosi wrote: »

For a more honest view on which roles are easy and which are hard, we need to look back to Group Finder. Which roles are in most demand? The reality is quite reversed from your perspective.

If most people chose to be tanks and healers the structure would collapse; they're not there to deal a bunch of damage. These games are designed to need more DDs that tanks or healers, so your argument that DPS is the easiest role seems a bit illogical. Sure, more people play and prefer DPS roles than tank or healer roles, but I don't think it has to do with difficulty.

In an ideal situation I think the roles are nicely balanced. If the tank knows how to tank properly, the healer knows how to heal properly, and the DPS know how to DPS properly, I'd say it's about even. When the DPS know how to stay out of the red circles, are the ones doing the rezzing, and are generally dealing sufficient damage while not running away from the healer, the healer is putting out orbs and (whatever else they do? I only DPS so with decent healers I don't actually notice what they're doing aside from the synergies... shoutout to the good healers whose skills go undetected in combat!), and the tank is holding aggro and positions the boss well if needs be, then I'd say the roles are of equal difficulty.

With bad DPS? The healer and tank roles become much more difficult.

Bad tank? The boss runs amok and the DDs and healers have a much harder time.

Bad healer? The stamblades all die, the healer dies, and the tank is left with the responsibility of either rezzing or taking on a 2 mil HP boss on their own.

BattleAxe · March 2019

The main source of this problem comes down to the long dps queue times. A tank and healer role selection is much easier to find a group because of the sheer volume of players wanting to be a dps. About only solution is add in a role importance selection to group finder.

This would mean you que for your desired role to play. If u feel u need a tank and a healer you select role importance high. If you feel role importance is not needed then you select low importance. This would mainly be if dps is your selected role. This would mean you can speed up group finder allowing up to 4 dps to group up together. Add in a third option of medium importance. Each level of role importance will effect your wait to queue again.

This would probably be unfavorable though. Higher role importance means shorter wait to queue again if you leave group or get kicked.

Example high importance means 15 minutes to que again adding 5 minutes to the importance after this ( high importance 15 medium importance 20 low importance 25 minutes). I only suggest this as kind of a risk reward system for queueing speed. You want a low wait time to get a group you risk a long wait time if you leave or get kicked.

How are we gonna make people use this and avoid queuing as fake tanks or healers? Add a role requirement or a role buff/debuff. Role requirements would be a bit difficult to figure out besides armor requirements. A role buff and a role debuff would probably be much easier to give.

Example:
Tanks: increased damage mitigation however reduced damage dealt
Dps: increased damage dealt however reduced damage mitigation
Healer: increased resource recovery however increased damage received

This is just a simple example but can go much deeper than what I’ve listed here

Nemesis7884 · March 2019

i have WAY less issue with fake anything in dungeons than i have with waiting an hour every time i want to do a dungeon :-( ....yes i can switch to a tank build - but i like to queue for dungeon while leveling other stuff... would be nice if you could have several loadouts and switch skills/gear on the fly.... like instead of outfits you get loadouts and you can buy loadout slots per character...

Merlin13KAGL · March 2019

Just as in your duplicate thread:

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

There's nothing tricky about 'traditional roles.'

You're either set up and capable to perform the function, or you're not. If you're not, you don't belong in queue.

IDGAF what gear you wear, what weapons and skills you use, so long as you can do what your role requires you to do.

And you don't get to make the determination if the content requires it or not - you don't get to choose for three other people expecting things to match up according to what you decided to list yourself as. I don't care if it's norm BC I or vSCP.

The role limit was put in place because most people couldn't handle one role, let alone two.

If you want something out of the norm, and you're not dangerously new, then you need to premade, just like @ccmedaddy stated.

Perform the role you listed as, or don't use the tool with any less than three other people in your group.