How do you actually like whats going on in Cyrodiil (Siege weapons)

commdt · February 2019

Please read the detailed question before answering
This is generally considered a bug but I find it a feature actually. Because it is some fun and a way to deal with ball groups, can force PUGs to buy sieges too. And in terms of logics in reality how would you like to take a ballista bolt in your face?

So here is the question:
How would you like to implement some significant buff to siege weapons damage to make them really powerful (not in current state of course, but you get the idea)?

Vapirko · February 2019

We definitely needed another thread on this.

Qbiken · February 2019

No, leave them as they have always been

Sieges are already very powerful and doesn´t need more buffs in my opinion. A few meatbag/scattershot catapults can already cause major issues for a ballgroup if placed correctly. I´m quite surprised that people find
stuff like this to be balanced:

[img][/img][img][/img]

I believe this bug only promotes zergs and people who think they should be able to wipe out an entire group with the push of an button. For some reason some small scale groups seems to like these new changes, but it´s just a matter of time before it backfires against them as well.

As it stands now there´s no counterplay agains the current damage of a siege (see image above). So I hope ZOS fix this bug on monday´s patch.

juhislihis19 · February 2019

No, leave them as they have always been

commdt wrote: »

Please read the detailed question before answering
This is generally considered a bug but I find it a feature actually. Because it is some fun and a way to deal with ball groups, can force PUGs to buy sieges too. And in terms of logics in reality how would you like to take a ballista bolt in your face?

So here is the question:
How would you like to implement some significant buff to siege weapons damage to make them really powerful (not in current state of course, but you get the idea)?

I would leave them be, for now.

PVP has so many problems right now which should be priorities. Mainly, they are performance related.

commdt · February 2019

Yes, I would like to make siege weapons significantly more powerful than player skills

Vapirko wrote: »

We definitely needed another thread on this.

Sorry, I couldnt find an existing actual poll on this matter. Maybe Im blind

Davadin · February 2019

Yes, I would like to make siege weapons significantly more powerful than player skills

MOAR DAMAGE.

yes, we're fictional characters capable of wielding magic and fighting demi-gods on a daily basis, so perhaps a magic-imbued ballistas or a pot of boiling oil *shouldn't* kill us in ONE shot.............

..........but they really need to kill us after three shot.............

Oh and please make boiling oil blockable. And siege machines absorbed by physical (and/or magical) resistance.

you see the trend of what I'm suggesting here?

Make this *** believable.

Davadin · February 2019

Yes, I would like to make siege weapons significantly more powerful than player skills

Qbiken wrote: »

Sieges are already very powerful and doesn´t need more buffs in my opinion. A few meatbag/scattershot catapults can already cause major issues for a ballgroup if placed correctly. I´m quite surprised that people find
stuff like this to be balanced:

[img][/img][img][/img]

I believe this bug only promotes zergs and people who think they should be able to wipe out an entire group with the push of an button. For some reason some small scale groups seems to like these new changes, but it´s just a matter of time before it backfires against them as well.

As it stands now there´s no counterplay agains the current damage of a siege (see image above). So I hope ZOS fix this bug on monday´s patch.

44k divided by 3 is 15k per hit.

for something that takes time to set up and have big red circle warning before it lands and does not fire continuously....

don't you think it kinda makes sense that it's a weeeeeeee bit more damaging than, say, a DK leap? or StamWarden's Dawnbreaker?

Or a *** poisoned arrow with 1-sec cooldown?

DeadlyRecluse · February 2019

I am CURRENTLY enjoying it.

It's funny. It's different. It's leading to new, emergent strategies and breaking up the FRONT DOOR ALL THE THINGS meta.

It lets a solo player contribute in a BIG way to large fights. A dude running coldfire is as impactful as a decent 6 man group not running siege.

I won't be enjoying it for long, though. As it stands, the only way to play offense is faction stacks or PvDoor. There's no balanced give-and-take between offense and defense. Field fights are a mass of red circles, with the real fight just being siege locations and a weird kind of aggressive siege chess (with groups big enough to have a lot of dedicated healing/purges fighting in the middle). I'm not a huge fan of that long term.

If I had to choose between pre-patch siege and current siege, I'll take pre-patch. Ideally, I'd like another little buff to siege in CP (compared to pre-patch siege), but that's neither here nor there.

redspecter23 · February 2019

Yes, I would like to make siege weapons significantly more powerful than player skills

I think you may find that as pvp player skill goes up, their desire to see massive damage from siege goes down. It's a somewhat similar situation to a heavy proc meta. It allows lower skilled players to even up the odds. I'm an average pvp player at best and love the idea of ultra damaging siege. If I were the kind of person that dives into 1v50 and comes out undamaged, I'd be far less likely to want to die to a level 1 mouthbreather and his 3 friends on the wall with fire balistas.

DeadlyRecluse · February 2019

redspecter23 wrote: »

I think you may find that as pvp player skill goes up, their desire to see massive damage from siege goes down. I'm an average pvp player at best and love the idea of ultra damaging siege. If I were the kind of person that dives into 1v50 and comes out undamaged, I'd be far less likely to want to die to a level 1 mouthbreather and his 3 friends on the wall with fire balistas.

....self burn? lol.

But I think you are pretty much correct.

VaranisArano · February 2019

The last time siege got buffed, that buff got reverted.

What's actually changed that ZOS would consider buffing siege again and to a greater extent?

Deep_01 · February 2019

Yes, I would like to make siege weapons significantly more powerful than player skills

Make siege cooldown 2.5x longer, 20% less dmg and adjust decay rate when in use accordingly.

vamp_emily · February 2019

Yes, I would like to make siege weapons significantly more powerful than player skills

When I think of high damage siege, I have nightmares of when Summerset first dropped. Zos increased siege damage and it proc'd sload. I almost rage quit because it was so bad.

I do like the idea of higher damage coming from siege. I don't think players should be able just to stand in it and not die.

technohic · February 2019

Poll is incomplete. Does not include an answer that is in between before and now. I'd split it right down the middle. Maybe add some effects like if you get hit dead center by a balista or treb, you get knocked down.

IzzyStardust · February 2019

Yes, I would like to make siege weapons significantly more powerful than player skills

Qbiken wrote: »

Sieges are already very powerful and doesn´t need more buffs in my opinion. A few meatbag/scattershot catapults can already cause major issues for a ballgroup if placed correctly. I´m quite surprised that people find
stuff like this to be balanced:

[img][/img][img][/img]

I believe this bug only promotes zergs and people who think they should be able to wipe out an entire group with the push of an button. For some reason some small scale groups seems to like these new changes, but it´s just a matter of time before it backfires against them as well.

As it stands now there´s no counterplay agains the current damage of a siege (see image above). So I hope ZOS fix this bug on monday´s patch.

You stood in red. Play ridiculous games, win ridiculous prizes. (also, I lol'd)

Crixus8000 · February 2019

No, leave them as they have always been

Siege should not be that much stronger than players, or whats the point in having a build ? Just play a tank and defend, attack keeps with sieges, and let them do all the work and get all the kills for you.

Chilly-McFreeze · February 2019

No, leave them as they have always been

IzzyStardust wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Sieges are already very powerful and doesn´t need more buffs in my opinion. A few meatbag/scattershot catapults can already cause major issues for a ballgroup if placed correctly. I´m quite surprised that people find
stuff like this to be balanced:

[img][/img][img][/img]

I believe this bug only promotes zergs and people who think they should be able to wipe out an entire group with the push of an button. For some reason some small scale groups seems to like these new changes, but it´s just a matter of time before it backfires against them as well.

As it stands now there´s no counterplay agains the current damage of a siege (see image above). So I hope ZOS fix this bug on monday´s patch.

You stood in red. Play ridiculous games, win ridiculous prizes. (also, I lol'd)

Do you know what a target bound DoT is?

Davadin · February 2019

Yes, I would like to make siege weapons significantly more powerful than player skills

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Siege should not be that much stronger than players, or whats the point in having a build ? Just play a tank and defend, attack keeps with sieges, and let them do all the work and get all the kills for you.

considering how slow moving, aiming, and shooting they are, i'll be excited if im defending a keep when it's under attacked only by sieges......

easy AP.

Crixus8000 · February 2019

No, leave them as they have always been

Davadin wrote: »

considering how slow moving, aiming, and shooting they are, i'll be excited if im defending a keep when it's under attacked only by sieges......

easy AP.

They really aren't that slow. You can go in a tower, lay down a siege and kill pretty much anything that comes through. Same with defending if you actually know what your doing then your siege will hit 90% of the time and 9-15k ticks are not balanced.

fullheartcontainer · February 2019

No, leave them as they have always been

Here's something people don't seem to get - this makes defending really easy and makes taking keeps very very difficult. People seem to like that. People seem to like being able to kill tons of people with a button click. That's all well and fine.

You aren't going to be online all the time. One day, you're going to log in and all your keeps will have been nightcapped, and you won't be able to get them back because defenders are sieging you down, and then all the same people that are currently praising high powered siege will be whining because they are getting killed by it.

Roboplus · February 2019

I'd like Ballista, Catapult, and Trebuchet to deal more damage, especially to structures. But I'd also like them to not auto-reload unless someone is manning them. If they're highly rewarding, there should be a heightened risk to using them.

One sprint speed player placing down 3 or 4 and just running between them is why we can't have high damage.

danno8 · February 2019

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I am CURRENTLY enjoying it.

It's funny. It's different. It's leading to new, emergent strategies and breaking up the FRONT DOOR ALL THE THINGS meta.

It lets a solo player contribute in a BIG way to large fights. A dude running coldfire is as impactful as a decent 6 man group not running siege.

I won't be enjoying it for long, though. As it stands, the only way to play offense is faction stacks or PvDoor. There's no balanced give-and-take between offense and defense. Field fights are a mass of red circles, with the real fight just being siege locations and a weird kind of aggressive siege chess (with groups big enough to have a lot of dedicated healing/purges fighting in the middle). I'm not a huge fan of that long term.

If I had to choose between pre-patch siege and current siege, I'll take pre-patch. Ideally, I'd like another little buff to siege in CP (compared to pre-patch siege), but that's neither here nor there.

My take as well.

It's a lark at the moment. Funny to watch, and play but I don't think it is good long term.

I wouldn't mind something between old live and new live though. Siege seems to bounce between being too weak and too strong in this game.

darkblue5 · February 2019

Yes, I would like to make siege weapons significantly more powerful than player skills

The siege does advantage the defenders a bit too much especially in no-CP. The siege is significantly less brutal in CP campaigns and thus advantages defenders less. Honestly, just raising the height allowed for trebuchets would vastly reduce the defender siege advantage. Thus making it more so the attackers could also counter siege. Making it so that prolonged sieges weakened defenders would also be a neat but new and improbable mechanic that would counter that problem. As far as the supposed requirement to PvDoor, in Vivec at least that simply isn't true. Sieges might require more than five minutes but a decently organized group still has a great chance to take the keep if they time it right.

Overall in Vivec I think it is an improvement to objective based warfare for the following reasons. It is honestly the first time in months you could actually stop a halfway competent PvDoor with siege. As well as the first time defenders could stop a guild from sprinting around the keep at full speed slowly flipping flags as they passed in months. The buff to defense was needed, just maybe not quite this much especially in no-CP.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the complaints of siege overwhelming what you can do on your character. I've had more success with ganking tanks on Coldfire by setting up my own Coldfires behind them than is comfortable (100% success rate lol). I've made a game of CF ganking/bombing in part to show how ridiculous the siege is. But at the same time I've had more actual PvP and less farming/getting farmed by ball groups. Yeah I'm in an AD ball group on Vivec and Sotha and I usually play solo. If your ball respects the siege and get good at baiting like a 1vX streamer the PuG farming is still possible. Wiping a line of people who set up Coldfires in front of their keep is extremely satisfying, and the tactical aspect of siege placement and pushing against siege placement is actually legitimately skill based. Even as using siege is still the boring "point and click". I guess FPS games are also easy to describe as that, and that point elides that even normal PvP isn't "No Items, Fox only, Final Destination" level either. Despite what people say recounting individual times where a less skilled player killed them with siege in abstract the group with better players and siege will still win more of the same type of encounters when compared with a less skilled group with even more siege.

The whole notion that prioritizing the skills on your own character and own armor should be what PvP is about tickles me. Ball groups have for the whole last patch been recommending solos and small groups to go to Battlegrounds if we wanted "real PvP" because we simply didn't have a place in the ball and zerg versus small scale meta. (Despite the fact that the same boring tanky AOE Warden healer balls are just as meta in Battlegrounds.) Cyrodiil has always been intended to involve siege warfare. It wasn't intended for people to sprint around keeps/fields/resources indefinitely like last patch. Organized groups are far from dead but now at least have to actually consider what they're doing instead of knowing that they're essentially invincible and charging in.

I'll admit that fighting on siege lines as a nightblade is the most fun I've had on a nightblade in a ages. This is because I feel like I can actually contribute to the fight by killing, burning, and distracting. Previously ball groups and zergs were the only things that mattered and ball groups were essentially untouchable and zergs could lose 3/4 of their numbers to solo gankers/1vX and still rez enough that it didn't matter one bit. Now you need to use a mechanic that nightblades can interact with much better and that is dispersed siege. The fact that this meta is much more friendly to solo nightblades is IMO why the siege bug is as popular as it is.

The reason that siege buffs used to be too much and now they might not be are that there's been power creep, the meta has changed, there are just bigger stacks of people than there used to be, and just the fact that more people like the resulting environment than don't so something has to be going right.

Finally, skilled players complaining about siege being too easy to use and not respecting it makes me think about WWI trench battles where clearly the tide of battle was decided by how good individual soldiers were at taking potshots. Sort of like how people complaining about Snipe make me wonder what the knights at the Battle of Agincourt might say if they were allowed to ask for nerfs. Someone doesn't have to be as good as you at Greco-Roman wrestling to kill you as you charge across an open field at a defensible position. They don't even have to be as good as you at manning the relevant artillery. Maybe included in your definition of good player should be some level of tactical thinking? Maybe there are reasons wars are no longer fought by rows of men walking towards each other in fields and shooting till one side wins?

TL:DR Slot purge, avoid red, don't charge into no man's land thinking your skill at "skillfully and dynamically managing 30+ debuffs with rapid maneuvers" means you should be able to survive a baptism of fire. Play around siege, play with siege, and maybe don't play for the objectives in no-CP. Yes it should be nerfed but not all the way back down to where it was. Even if it isn't nerfed it is making for better play patterns than the previous meta. Groups are salty they can't PvDoor keeps full of PuGs or smaller ball groups in 5 minutes or less like they used to but that isn't a bad thing. The mega zerg supression I do not believe but hope is true. I just don't believe that that is dead because of siege or just the faction stacked zerg being deprived of crucial faction swappers.

RebornV3x · February 2019

I'm all for a buff to siege I think its a tad to much right now but siege in update 20 was a joke you shouldn't be able to stand in siege all day without worry so I think they need to find a healthy balance between update 20's damage and the damage on live

Flame_of_Hades · February 2019

No, leave them as they have always been

Something I don't think many people are taking into consideration, is that siege is already VERY deadly in the no-cp campaign... as far as I have seen, siege is much less effective in CP, so why not fix the bug, and buff siege damage IN CP.

BRODY · February 2019

No, leave them as they have always been

Fire Oil and cold fire shots 15k, no any buff not ressist this. And this in Vivec company. You think, its norm game? Ha, we are stay in static raid from gate and die from 4 fire Oil. This damage not purged, not healed, not def ram. Nice, when you have static 12-24 people, who learn team play from one year and die from 4 pigs, not have chance destroy gate via ram.

Trinity_Is_My_Name · February 2019

Yes, I would like to make siege weapons significantly more powerful than player skills

Yes. Seige weapons should pretty much one shot ball groups into dust. Heck yeah! Buff Seige weapons!

kaithuzar · February 2019

No, leave them as they have always been

It’s the “ball groups” using the siege.
Due to the “siege abuse”, I would prefer if they removed the ability for siege to damage players.

#GitGud
#StopCrutching

Checkmath · February 2019

No, leave them as they have always been

I will just copy my wall of text from another thread in here:

I saw people being happy with the current sieges and claim, that standing in red is stupid and should be punished. I see from what point of view you are coming from, but I do not agree with regarding that statement in most of the cases.

I agree with you in the case, that you are standing in front of the keep and there is one guy on the wall with a siege. You are far away, there are no guards and you got all the time to watch the projectile fire and the red circle growing. In that case, you are right, you should be punished, when you let that projectile hit you.

Now why are so many people complaining about it then? Because above described situation is not the norm. Sure it happens and you can troll those siegers by taking one step to the side and let that projectile miss you.

But as said, above described situation is not the norm. And in most other cases those sieges get really annoying and too strong.

Normally if you stand in front of a keep, there is not only one guy on the wall firing a ballista, but several. And if 6 ballistas are aimed at you, all slightly at different locations, it will get much more difficult to evade the combined area of effect and you will get hit very fast, since neither sprinting nor dodging will get you out of the area of effect of several sieges.

Still it can get more annoying. In most cases, where you are outnumbered/challenged (the situation small scalers and solo players seek to challenge themselves) you have lots of different things you have to pay attention to. It can be guards stunning you, rooting or slowing you or generally just fighting you and doing damage to you (which will make you face the guards to fight back and therefore facing away from sieges), which draws your attention away from the enemies sieges. Just adding here, that max level guards in no cp pvp are not always easy to deal with anyway.

Still this is not the end. You also can face enemy players, which normally require your full attention, especially when they are not bad ones. IN such cases one simple guy with a siege weapon can ruin everything (same goes for snipers and gankers). Why can they ruin everything you ask? Because they have the opportunity to deal very high damage from a save spot or distance, basically with minimal effort and minimal risk.

Yes, solo and small scale players seek outnumbered situations, where they are numerical at a disadvantage. Because it is challenging them. The problem with the current sieges, proc sets and snipers is, that it shifts the actual odds of winning for the small scaler away from him without without any fair reason. The enemy people take low risks and low skill requirement to get a massive effect, a massive advantage over the actually being superior enemy.

You see a guy fighting a magicka dk tank, which controls the guys movement nicely by slowing him, rooting him and stunning him. The fight would take some time as is, since the tank absorb the damage nicely, but also does not really damage that one guy. Still the guy didnt notice you yet, since he focussed on the fight with the dk tank. Then you place a ballista, fire one shot and the guy dies, because the current damage of sieges is broken. Now did you really earn that kill? Did you actually fight the guy? Well it surely was a clever idea, but skillless, unfair and broken. Also would you have been able to hit him with the ballista, if the guy had seen you or if the dk wouldnt have taken his whole attention? Or maybe you could only hit him, because the dk tank rooted him or stunned him the very same moment?

Well those are questions most of you guys actually do not consider when using sieges.

A small example of my own experience. I normally play solo, seek situations like being outnumbered in a resource tower (there I can by good positioning outweight the enemies number to some extent).

I turned fort Ash's farm. Soon after three yellows turned up, one of them starting to siege the resource guards, That one guy placed like three ballistas firing at me and the guards (the guards obviously died very fast). the other two guys started to fight me, so I went back into the tower and kited those three guys for a bit. Soon 2 of them get annoyed and left, the third guy still with his sieges now firing into the tower was being backed up by the new spawned yellow guards. Still i was able to kill him.

Later that day, I went back to the again yellow farm of fort Ash. The resource guards levelled up and as soon I approached the guards, I already saw this guy again placing ballistas. I therefore went into the tower, where I for the moment was safe from the trajectory of the sieges. Still the no cp guards followed me in there and did quite the job taking my attention. Now the enemy player placed overall 3 ballistas to hit every angle of the tower, but kept some safe distance to me. I managed to kite it for some while, but then I took some unlucky ballista shot stunned inside an NPC negate. As a magicka templar I couldnt heal nor cleanse, and stamina was low since no cp pvp is very unforgiving there. I melted unable to do anything.

Some time later the DC faction advanced a bit against the yellows, so I rode for the farm at Roebeck. I killed the guards and started to turn the flags. Before the flag was turned half, the same guy with 4 friends arrived and I retreated into the tower, since that one guy already put down a ballista and I knew i could not stay outside, fight 4 players and take care of the ballista projectile. I went on the first level, backside of the tower and placed one fire ballista down (I was curious, how much I could do with it and also wanted to show that one guy how disgusting it will be, when it succeeds, since he was very proud of his win back then). All 5 people died solely by getting hit with my ballista, I only had to add some little bit of execute damage here or there. It was just too effective. I did not really feel, that I earned those kills, since it was my easiest 1v5 in my whole life so far. Immediatly after that guy from before died to my ballista, he whispered me only in capitol letters: How I dare to steal his "build".

This example should show, how disgusting the current state of siege weapons is:
- The damage is too high
- People using sieges normally do not take any risk to deal immense damage (from far away, from keep walls or when the enemy is occupied with guards or other players)
- Using sieges do not require much skill and are therefore too efficient
- Evading the area of effect of sieges can be very difficult in most of situations due to facing enemy players, evading other effects or facing guards
- Being killed by sieges is unsatisfactory, since there is not much counterplay currently and maybe you got killed in a situation, which you normally would have survived
- Killing people with sieges do not really grant satisfaction, because the current mechanics are broken and far too strong
- Individuals gain power, they normally do not possess (bad players can take out good players, good players can take out far too many bad players by themselves)

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How do you actually like whats going on in Cyrodiil (Siege weapons)

How do you actually like whats going on in Cyrodiil (Siege weapons) 54 votes