The Future Of The Champion Point System

kaligold · February 2019

"Champion Point Update

The Champion Point cap will not be increased for Update 21, or subsequent updates, until further notice. We are currently investigating the best direction to take the system to have healthier balance overall for the game."

This scares me. I am CP 400, and working towards 810 is one of my main reasons for playing the game right now. I don't mind if they stop adding points, but might they take this away and replace with a different system?

Sorry if this has been discussed already. I am a returning player after 12 months away.

Morgul667 · February 2019

Some of the forum crew and for some reasons our class rep believe the cp are the reason of power creep and convinced zos that it was the source of evil. ZOS is looking into it. There are no information about what they want to do with it

I personnaly disagree with the idea cp is the problem. Game mechanics and dlc gear boost our dps every update.

Adding my 30 cp does not change my dps much. Equipping new gear boost my dps significantly

And zos will not stop introducing new gear for obvious reasons

At least cp is free, fair and gives a feeling of progression

Girl_Number8 · February 2019

Zos doesn't really care about day one players with this and you should make to 810cp with the 5 weeks of bonus xp coming up, depending on the lag. But after that, I am sure they will finally do one of their wonderful lazy blanket nerfs and get rid of the rest of the loyal player base as much as they can. GG Zos.

frostz417 · February 2019

Morgul667 wrote: »

Some of the forum crew and for some reasons our class rep believe the cp are the reason of power creep and convinced zos that it was the source of evil. ZOS is looking into it. There are no information about what they want to do with it

I personnaly disagree with the idea cp is the problem. Game mechanics and dlc gear boost our dps every update.

Adding my 30 cp does not change my dps much. Equipping new gear boost my dps significantly

And zos will not stop introducing new gear for obvious reasons

At least cp is free, fair and gives a feeling of progression

I would like to direct your attention to this thread I made about cp address

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460107/zos-s-address-to-cp-rant#latest

I believe I’ve hit my points strongly on how zos and the class reps frame cp for being the cause of all the game issues without providing any factual evidence. Just empty beliefs that will potentially screw a lot of people over.

Siohwenoeht · February 2019

It will change but I'd be very surprised if it were replaced completely. They already replaced their secondary leveling system once (vr to CP). If they do, however, they'll give you credit in the new system just like they did for vr.

Lyserus · February 2019

Yeah same I don't think it's gonna just gone like Vet Ranks, it's much more complicated and honestly deserve to stay (at very least, for pve)

Something new might be introduced, but cp is more than likely to stay

Besides, even if cp will be gone completely, your new progression system would place you the equivalent position of your cp

Nebthet78 · February 2019

I would also like to direct you to this thread I made with an essay in regards to why we need to keep CP and the now Progression Atrophy a majority of players are now in for the foreseeable future.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458667/progression-atrophy-the-need-for-power-creep-in-eso-other-pain-points-for-middle-tiered-players/p1

efster · February 2019

Next up: after level 50 you can become Legendary and reset all your skill progress so you can progress again as a slightly more powerful base model.

Morgul667 · February 2019

frostz417 wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Some of the forum crew and for some reasons our class rep believe the cp are the reason of power creep and convinced zos that it was the source of evil. ZOS is looking into it. There are no information about what they want to do with it

I personnaly disagree with the idea cp is the problem. Game mechanics and dlc gear boost our dps every update.

Adding my 30 cp does not change my dps much. Equipping new gear boost my dps significantly

And zos will not stop introducing new gear for obvious reasons

At least cp is free, fair and gives a feeling of progression

I would like to direct your attention to this thread I made about cp address

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460107/zos-s-address-to-cp-rant#latest

I believe I’ve hit my points strongly on how zos and the class reps frame cp for being the cause of all the game issues without providing any factual evidence. Just empty beliefs that will potentially screw a lot of people over.

I know your post and already replied on it, that I basically agree with you :P

Morgul667 · February 2019

Nebthet78 wrote: »

I would also like to direct you to this thread I made with an essay in regards to why we need to keep CP and the now Progression Atrophy a majority of players are now in for the foreseeable future.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458667/progression-atrophy-the-need-for-power-creep-in-eso-other-pain-points-for-middle-tiered-players/p1

This is also a very good thread

I hope ZOS listens to all players and not only the anti-CP forums warriors (and class reps for some reasons)

Tannus15 · February 2019

each single 30cp increase isn't an issue, but together they are becoming very problematic.

It started with 300cp which is what the base game is balanced around.
That was in update 6.
We've had 14 more updates which increased cp since then and one large nerf to the system when morrowind was released.
by the end of this year if things continue we would have 900 cp. that's enough for 100 in every constellation. What was intended to be a tool for min / maxing is not just a tool for maxing.

Take the red tree for example. At max I can have 23% resist to all damage types (phys & mag) and an additional 11% resist to all damage sources (dot and direct) and STILL have 28 points left.
There are no choices with the number of points we have available unless you're trying to run a hybrid build.
You just get all the things.

jainiadral · February 2019

I'm not sure why they can't just put a cap on CP earned, then just leave it the heck alone.

phaneub17_ESO · February 2019

I had hopes they stop at 900 so it be an even number.

RavenSworn · February 2019

Morgul667 wrote: »

Some of the forum crew and for some reasons our class rep believe the cp are the reason of power creep and convinced zos that it was the source of evil. ZOS is looking into it. There are no information about what they want to do with it

I personnaly disagree with the idea cp is the problem. Game mechanics and dlc gear boost our dps every update.

Adding my 30 cp does not change my dps much. Equipping new gear boost my dps significantly

And zos will not stop introducing new gear for obvious reasons

At least cp is free, fair and gives a feeling of progression

they wouldnt have agreed to change or at least modify the CP system if there werent any problems to it in the first place. they are the ones with the numbers yeah? and yes, CP do have power creep inbuilt in them. that goes without saying. it doesnt change dps between a cp 790 and a cp 810 but between a fresh cp 10 vs a cp 800? you do the math.

Wing · February 2019

the factual evidence of CP ruining the game is easy.

1-it is in fact just power creep, there is no choice, no give and take, just literal % increases.

2-actual tangible armor passives and class passives were nerfed or removed because of CP. for example multiple passives in every armor tree have been straight up nerfed (reduction and recovery passives are the big examples, blocking in general has been reworked and nerfed multiple times) or straight up removed. where can you make up for this loss of power? with the CP system of course.

3-CP has a negative impact on performance. this is just obvious and not really up for debate, adding in more calculations (especially % based ones) is never good. a lot of people play Sotha because of better performance.

4-content scales around it. if you look at the original dungeons while they were never "hard" they were certainly not as easy as they are today. and if you look at current dungeons (that get harder every update, to the point were a lot of people have just quit playing that content altogether) those would be nearly impossible to complete without CP.

5-the fact that we have "non CP" content is proof its a problem. a good system would not require the ability to opt out of it. ZOS needs to implement a system that removes the need to split the playerbase.

____________________________________

people have suspected that perhaps the CP system will change to flat values like the racial passive changes. this would both reduce power creep and actually make hybrids or putting points into off stat bonuses a possibility. as right now % bonuses favor stacking on top of already high stats. were as flat values would allow you to use CP to make up for weaknesses. a lower ceiling and higher floor as it were, but progress non the less.

and for obvious reasons it would be better for performance, % calculations suck something fierce in code, especially the generic % damage reduction and damage increase nodes that has the system throwing multiple unique checks all over the place.

I would personally like to see more interesting node options that cause you to play different rather then straight stat buffs. like some of the 4 piece set bonuses that go underused.

mairwen85 · February 2019

Cp itself isn't the problem. By its very design it is the definition of power creep, that's what vertical progression is - - controlled, power creep from inception. The problem is the trickle down effect it has on quite literally everything. It isn't controlled any more, and is working beyond the boundaries initially intended.

I'm a proponent of cp, but ZOS revisiting it, applying constraints, adding new directions, limiting it's reach etc, these are all things that will benefit us in the long run--removal without compensation is what they won't, or I hope they won't, do as retroactively making the entire player base weaker is not a good move. It needs taming, and balance. Only then can other avenues of power creep be addressed.

Morgul667 · February 2019

RavenSworn wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Some of the forum crew and for some reasons our class rep believe the cp are the reason of power creep and convinced zos that it was the source of evil. ZOS is looking into it. There are no information about what they want to do with it

I personnaly disagree with the idea cp is the problem. Game mechanics and dlc gear boost our dps every update.

Adding my 30 cp does not change my dps much. Equipping new gear boost my dps significantly

And zos will not stop introducing new gear for obvious reasons

At least cp is free, fair and gives a feeling of progression

they wouldnt have agreed to change or at least modify the CP system if there werent any problems to it in the first place. they are the ones with the numbers yeah? and yes, CP do have power creep inbuilt in them. that goes without saying. it doesnt change dps between a cp 790 and a cp 810 but between a fresh cp 10 vs a cp 800? you do the math.

We cannot compare the impact of 810 CP alltogether against the impact of a DLC gear upgrade. It does not make sense.

What change every update ? 30 CP and a gear. What does increase your DPS ? The gear or the 30 CP ?

mairwen85 · February 2019

@Morgul667 gear is horizontal progression. Whatever cp level, you can have the same gear. Who does it benefit more?

In addition, most gear comes at the expense of certain stats while increasing others, meaning you build for specific combinations, and make up the difference in cp. Bis gear is only bis if you understand those combinations, and how to best configure cp to benefit, player skill also factors into what you are willing to sacrifice (and where to get your gains), along with having a group that provides and makes up for other sacrifices (e.g. penetration, sustain)... There are many sets that can be worked to be bis based on play-style, and they are not always the latest. How long has mother's sorrow been in the game, but only recently has been hyped because of how it can be used interchangeably with others given the right scenario and cp configuration. That is the beauty of cp, and one reason I want to keep it (despite it being heavily over powered in its current state).

From one of the linked threads above:

mairwen85 wrote: »

As for proc sets -- some are overkill, but the Summerset batch were quite balanced; if you consider Siroria, for example, you get a stacking bonus, but you lose mobility; mobility = survivability; to get your full 600 you can't move for 20 seconds, you have to make sure you throw at least 1 single target skill exactly once per 10 seconds to refresh it. I'm still using julianos in dungeons, because I can move around and keep myself alive while still delivering consistent damage -- Siroria really is only good for trials or dungeons where there are no mechanics that require you to do something other than stand still. Spell Strategist, nice for single target, but BSW effects every target! There is always a trade off when you set up your gear -- just because something is BiS on a dummy parse, doesn't give it practical application for every scenario. I am constantly swapping sets, but my tried, tested fallback is my crafted set which can compliment any other setup for almost every scenario... That's how horizontal progression works, or rather, should work. New gear does not obsolete older gear (unless you really only understand the game as a copy-paste job).

Cookie-cutter builds will always exist. Content creators will always promote the 'best' sets. There will always be psuedo-elite players who follow the meta without question or understanding the actual 'why'. But the game doesn't have to advocate the same. Problem is, it looks right now as if it does. There are fixes and solutions, directions that would make it more equivocal across the player-base, and very few of them would include the total removal of CP.

With Slimecraw, Julianos & BSW, thief mundus, I have 63% crit chance and over 3.4k spell damage (with BSW proc up)-- replacing Julianos with Siroria and BSW with Spell strat, I have 53% and 2.1k spell damage -- I could swap thief mundus for apprentice or mage with the former load out and have near equivalent damage, dropping thief on siroria, my crit drops to 40 something which is equivalent to a significant drop in dps despite the escalating spell damage I get from its 5pc bonus if I stay static for the entire fight.

I'll say it again, you have to build for specific sets to fully enjoy the benefits of them (and sometimes also change your play style).

As for taming:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5842629/#Comment_5842629

Tommy_The_Gun · February 2019

"Champion system is the source of a power creep"... LOL. I always thought that new dlc / chapter gear is the source of power creep... Not the CP system.

I have the weird feeling that some people have been pvping and got killed by a higher level cp player... Is that what happened ? I am confused...
Isn't it like stating the obvious ? Like this is what will happen in a crpg game ? Whatever it is pve or pvp ? That a character with a higher level will be better than the character with the lower level, thus it is more likely to win ?

If someone believes that ,then it does not matter what kind of progression system they are gonna introduce - the same people will say it still a power creep.

This game NEEDS some sort of prgogresion system (like current CP system) past level 50. Otherwise people will stop playing it. How do you expect to make player feel stronger then, without them actally beeing stronger ?
It just does not make sense...

Disclaimer: I am not sayig that CP system is ideal. It has some flaws, sure. I am just afraid that ZOS will engage "lazy" mode again repeating like a souless beeing "math, math, math" and simply reduces the values of cp, effectively taking our progression again, reducing 810cp effectiveness to like 160cp, forcing people to grind to cp level 2000cp just to regain what they lost.

Hotdog_23 · February 2019

Personally I see both sides of the argument. One side I like the feeling of some progression every update and feel new sets are a much bigger reason for power creep but acknowledge that an increase in CP is also part of the issue. Now I don’t see ZOS stopping introducing new more powerful sets unfortunately as they appear to do this to encourage people to buy new content or stay subscribed to ESO plus.

Removing CP would be very hard and complicated to do because the game has been built and balanced around it for years. Just flat out removing it would require rebalancing a lot skills and sets or content in the game.

Now I know that we have no CP PVP and so removing it would not be as “hard” some of you think but really PVE has been balanced around it for years. PVP and PVE are two very different animals. Pug a lot in PVE and you will see a lot more average/casual players vs. a few really good players. Remove it completely and remove a lot of power from players without replacing it and you would see a riot from probably everyone.

I see this as a much larger and complicated issue. Having some form of progression vs power creep. Personally I can think of no way to do both and keep most people happy. Glad I don’t have to decide and make the hard choices. Just going to have to trust the people at ZOS to make the right choices and sit back and whine and complain like most people do when they do make a decision.

Funny thing I never see anyone do is test DPS dummy test with say 300cp vs. 600cp vs. 810 to see the real difference in power with added CP. I think that would be very interesting to see.

SoLooney · February 2019

I don't know why zos is so against power creep. As the game gets updated, players should get stronger. It's something to work towards and keeps people interested

Cp is not the main reason why power creep is a huge issue. It isnt. There are plenty of max cp players who are pulling less than 20k dps or are just unable to pvp well because of lack of skill and not having the right gear.

Gear from cloudrest aka siroria and relequen are huge in terms of dps. Spell strat, mothers sorrow and advancing yokeda are also guilty of huge power creep. Not to mention support gear is insane too. Alkosh, torugs, infallible aether, powerful assault, and olorime.

The gear is probably the biggest reason why power creep got so big and also players who know their dps characters rotation near perfect

I do think it does need a rework. But people need to stop blaming cp for a huge power creep and why it's not balanced for pvp...

mairwen85 · February 2019

SoLooney wrote: »

I don't know why zos is so against power creep. As the game gets updated, players should get stronger. It's something to work towards and keeps people interested

Cp is not the main reason why power creep is a huge issue. It isnt. There are plenty of max cp players who are pulling less than 20k dps or are just unable to pvp well because of lack of skill and not having the right gear.

Those same players wouldn't fair much better with the 'right' gear.

SoLooney wrote: »

Gear from cloudrest aka siroria and relequen are huge in terms of dps. Spell strat, mothers sorrow and advancing yokeda are also guilty of huge power creep. Not to mention support gear is insane too. Alkosh, torugs, infallible aether, powerful assault, and olorime.

Not that huge if you don't know how to build for and play with those sets.

SoLooney wrote: »

The gear is probably the biggest reason why power creep got so big and also players who know their dps characters rotation near perfect

Not so, see previous posts and responses. Players learning their rotation is key to playing the game and delivering the best possible dps output (regardless of gear); you can pull 30-40K with any overland/crafted set combination. Cloudrest sets if built for and configured against proper CP investment can increase that by ~5k. Decent buffs, source of damage and resource increases (i.e food +potions), group organisation, and sustain assistance can increase that by 10-15k.

SoLooney wrote: »

I do think it does need a rework. But people need to stop blaming cp for a huge power creep and why it's not balanced for pvp...

Gear just allows for the stacking of raw stats or provide random occurrences of incidental damage -- CP directly affects the skills that use those stats and the damage dealt by type and duration before and after calculation.

CP impacts everything directly and indirectly. Don't misunderstand me, I'm a fan because of the flexibility it provides (if you look passed cookie cutter builds and explore the gearing and theory crafting aspects of the game), but its reach is too great to sustain in the long run. ZoS need to temper it, and address that reach in order to maintain and future proof any progression system.

kaligold · February 2019

Thanks for all your opinions.

If they nerf what we already have in terms of CP or remove it, or replace it with something much less than what it is - I will 100% guarantee you this, I will cancel my ESO Plus and never touch this game again.

Skwor · February 2019

kaligold wrote: »

Thanks for all your opinions.

If they nerf what we already have in terms of CP or remove it, or replace it with something much less than what it is - I will 100% guarantee you this, I will cancel my ESO Plus and never touch this game again.

QFT

RANKK7 · February 2019

Besides other reasons, I hope CP go burn in a fire, I'm sick and tired of gaining CPs! In 3 days now I gained 3 Champion Points doing nothing!

This is ridiculous, I cannot kill a trash on my way to a survey I gain champion point, I think I gained 350+ CP ALONE just doing master writs. Every time I have some of them to do I'm damn sure I'm going to gain a freaking champion point. And for what?

Oh, I got another one some minutes ago, I don't really know what I was doing.

Maybe there is some kind of bug affecting me and I gain them at insanely fast rate OR they really should overhaul them and how to gain them.
After a certain number it should be a VERY slow process to gain them, as it is now it's ridiculous.

Odovacar · February 2019

Regardless of what happens they have to do something for us that have hundreds of unusable CP's that have been laying around forever!

blkjag · February 2019

It’s a pve vs pvp thing. No one will be happy while cp affects both the same. I don’t see anyone crying for nerfs on vcr, but one guy gets wrecked in pvp and starts a nerf X because X thread. It would be nice to see the cp tree work differently for pve and pvp.

polgarah · February 2019

If cp were the problem my guildmate, with just 450 cp, couldn’t have dealt 44k on dummie..... but he did.

jd24 · February 2019

I think the cp system seems neat as a new player. Whatever ZOS decides, I hope it is not a gear treadmill like wow. I think it is awesome how most of the gear sets in this game are somewhat relevant vs being obsolete in 3 months.

Katahdin · February 2019

RANKK7 wrote: »

Besides other reasons, I hope CP go burn in a fire, I'm sick and tired of gaining CPs! In 3 days now I gained 3 Champion Points doing nothing!

This is ridiculous, I cannot kill a trash on my way to a survey I gain champion point, I think I gained 350+ CP ALONE just doing master writs. Every time I have some of them to do I'm damn sure I'm going to gain a freaking champion point. And for what?

Oh, I got another one some minutes ago, I don't really know what I was doing.

Maybe there is some kind of bug affecting me and I gain them at insanely fast rate OR they really should overhaul them and how to gain them.
After a certain number it should be a VERY slow process to gain them, as it is now it's ridiculous.

What CP level are you? If you're lower, the catch up mechanic makes you gain faster than higher levels. This is because lower CP players cried that they would never be able to catch up to max levels and always be at a disadvantage.

The thing with CP, is yes it makes your character stronger, particularly at lower levels of CP, but with diminishing return and the max allowed per category, that power creep will stop at some point. So I don't buy CP being that much of a demon here.

srfrogg23 · February 2019

efster wrote: »

Next up: after level 50 you can become Legendary and reset all your skill progress so you can progress again as a slightly more powerful base model.

He thinks he's just trolling...