Zos’s address to CP rant

frostz417 · February 2019

Before I begin... this thread is only speaking of PVE.. PvP is an entirely different topic to tackle. I try to sound the least bit condescending as possible in this rant so I apologize if I do.
Now I shall begin.

Following a statement Gina made about CP being an issue within pve...Who exactly is complaining about power creep in pve? End game pve’ers don’t seem to be complaining so it has to be the low cp casual pve’ers.
Keep in mind that even Max cp folk still struggle with hitting such top tier dps and with rotations. Cp doesn’t play a large Factor in this pve “power creep” powerful sets that zos introduces each patch are to blame. End gamers perfect their rotation to maximize their damage output, and with these powerful sets it makes it even higher. Not to mention they also have good knowledge of mechanics so they know what happens and when.. meaning they’re not spending much time trying to survive and they’re just focusing on damage until they NEED to avoid or defend against said mechanic. There are MANY 810 folk who still struggle to even hit 35k which is the minimal end game dps requirement. Clearly that’s not a CP powercreep issue. It’s a “I don’t have the right sets or proper rotation” issue.
Let’s also mention how the summerset patch where 2h weapon such as staves now count as 2 piece sets had a massive boost in dps for mag, along with extremely powerful pve sets such as mantle of siroria, and arms of the relequen... both made end game dps skyrocket. Cp is not at fault for this so I’m not sure who keeps spreading these false claims.

I’m going to quote something Gina
posted about CP in the class rep meeting notes,
“We spent a fair amount of time discussing the Champion Point system because it is our belief that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed)”

Seriously? Avoiding mechanics due to CP? What? I STRONGLY disagree. As someone who’ went from cp 400 to max cp and I did mostly pve (trials vet dlc dungeons) etc. Healers aren’t needed because recently all the vet dlc dungeons zos has created are ALL ONE SHOT MECHANICS.
Falkreath hold, bloodroot force, scalecaller peak, fanglair, March of sacrifices, moon hunter keep. All these dungeons have MULTIPLE 1 shot mechanics. I won’t list them due to the list being extremely long but I can if someone really wants me to.
CP isn’t the reason for us avoiding mechanics. The reason for us avoiding mechanics because they only consist of 1 shots. Why do I need a healer if they cannot heal through a 1 shot mechanic. It’s a waste of a person. Might as well 3 dps 1 tank everything since we can just avoid the 1 shot mechanics and there’s virtually nothing to be healed from.
In veteran trials you clearly need 2 tanks 2 healers 8 damage dealers and never needed any less. The reason people burn through this content so effectively is because maybe they’ve ran the content multiple times and know what happens and when. Not to mention on PC you have addons that further help dps and mechanic knowledge.

Rather than just stating “beliefs” with no support for these empty beliefs maybe you guys should get some FACTS to support these claims instead of just discussing random topics.

I will add in another quote,
“The class reps agreed and added the problem goes deeper; since Bosses don’t have CP, they aren’t getting the -X% modifiers. The end result is that players quickly out-scale and become too strong for any PvE content that gets released.”

I will reiterate that all pve content that has gotten released recently are all either mini trials which people complete in under 10 minutes since it’s extremely short, mechanics consist of stack&burn tactics and avoid this 1 shot mechanic with minimal effort put into them or dlc dungeons with nothing but 1 shot mechanics where you don’t need a healer since as previously stated. Healers can’t heal through 1 shot mechanics so everyone just does 3 dps and a tank.
I’d like to also add in that when we actually had hard and creative trials that zos took time creating such as vmol, vhof... people took months to progress and only 4 teams that I know of across all platforms have gotten tick tock tormentor. Where as veteran asylum and veteran cloudrest people complete within 10 minutes and already have all the achievements associated with them since the mechanics are easy and repetitive.
Might I also add in ever since the 2h counting as 2 piece bonuses healers have gotten far lazier in trials since they just slap on earthgore (a set that never should’ve been created) and groups are able to survive far easier than they should be with this crutch set. Why put 100% effort when you can just have a measly earthgore proc and make the group nearly invulnerable for 6 seconds.
The issue isn’t CP making pve content too easy. No the issue zos is YOU constantly breaking things. Brokenly overpowered sets such as mantle of siroria, arms of the relequen, spell strategist, earthgore, zaan, etc etc. These sets give a massive boost to dps or healing with little to no effort at all. The issue is YOU create content like mini trials that are able to be completed in under 10 minutes since the mechanics are lazily implemented, or the fact that YOU add in DLC dungeons that ONLY contain 1 shot mechanics. Everyone runs 3 dps and a tank because all vet DLC dungeons mechanics only consist of “have x or you instantly die.” Maybe if you implemented heal checks in dungeons or actually made trials where you didn’t have to fight all the bosses at once and just have mechanics where you avoid 1 shots and actually implemented heal checks like in Veteran Halls of Fabrication content would actually be good.

Players also have become too strong because they have exponential knowledge of mechanics, Skill optimization, and gear. Cp plays a small factor in this.
People aren’t hitting 50k+ dps because of cp. they’re hitting those numbers due to perfected rotations and powerful gear and flawless skill optimization. Maybe if pve content actually has creative mechanics like the monster trials of veteran halls of fabrication and veteran maw or lorkaj where people spent MONTHS progressing and completing it instead of just easy mini trials with the same mechanics, or dungeons only consisting of 1 shot mechanics we wouldn’t be having this issue of people just completing pve content easily.

The fact that zos decided to pin the blame on CP without providing any evidence or facts to support such a claim honestly worries me since it just makes it seem like all end gamers are in for a massive and unnecessary nerf to all their characters because of the false claims of CP being an issue in pve. You need to play your game more rather than making these claims based on belief.

@Zedrian made a very good quote in one of the cp threads.
“And when you see the clear contrast in difficulty between killing a world boss, Fungal Grotto last boss and the new Hardmore trials, I don't think CP is the cause to this imbalanced difficulty, but the content itself should be revisited and adapted to the player base. When One Tamriel was released, everything outside of trials has become much easier because difficulty was meant to be adapted for everyone instead of keeping levels of difficulty”

In conclusion,
“We spent a fair amount of time discussing the Champion Point system because it is our BELIEF that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues”
beliefs mean nothing. You have provided no facts to support such a belief. A fact is your content has become too easy and I dare say lazy with mini trials being released and completed on such short notice due to the trial having easy mechanics, and vet dlc dungeons only consisting of one shot mechanics making the role of a healer obsolete.
Another fact is that zos keeps adding in overpowered sets every patch that further improve dps. Rather than adding 3 proc sets each patch maybe you should stop adding in broken sets and just fix the old ones that are completely disregarded and obsolete. I honestly am convinced zos does not play their own game as much as they need to. These constant unnecessary nerfs without any explanation or logic behind them prove it. The fact that they have “beliefs” instead of actually supporting claims with actual FACTS makes me very concerned. I sincerely hope this cp “rework” isn’t some colossal nerf to all end game players because you “believe” that cp is the reason for your content being completed so easily. This statement you guys made has me extremely worried for the future of the game.
@Zos_GinaBruno

Ratzkifal · February 2019

I'll admit I only skimmed your text, but so far I haven't found anything about the actual reasons why power creep is bad and CP is the cause.

Tl;dr: Your class skills, gear and everything else keeps being nerfed because CP increases every update and ZOS aims to keep power levels the same. They do that because ZOS wants to avoid is that content can become outdated and that vMA or dungeons are not challenging at max CP. Arguably Overworld has already become outdated, but not the veteran and DLC dungeons. Because gaining more CP keeps adding more power into the system (despite deminishing returns), nerfs have become a necessity.

People are sick of being nerfed constantly and to address that, the CP system needs to be reworked to allow progression while keeping the power creep at a minimum. New sets are only a minor factor as newer sets replace old sets and we haven't gotten to the point were ZOS releases Julianos².

A working alternative to this is the reintroduction of levels obviously or adding a heroic difficulty after veteran or something. Not that I think anyone would want either.

Siohwenoeht · February 2019

I think op is roughly on the right track but CP and new sets along with one shot mechanics in new content create this self repeating cycle when combined together.

When CP replaced vet levels it was ostensibly because vet leveling was an incredible grind. ESO had tried a "vet zone" with craglorn that for the most part flopped so they went back to creating new dungeons and trials that increased in difficulty as CP increased player power.

CP has a built-in system of diminishing returns to combat power creep that does generally work. When you add these new powerful sets to the mix, however, you see player power continue to increase.

Now here is where I see things becoming complicated. The old combat development view seemed to be promoting the ever-increasing dps and therefore added dps checks and one shot mechanics as the only "challenge" for new end game content.

I think what we are beginning to see is part of the new combat development strategy.

They've realised that the dps monster they created (of which CP, sets, and dungeon dps checks/one shots are all to blame) is not sustainable. We have new racial passives that have brought dps potential to roughly the same level (there still need to be tweaks but that's another conversation) and the reevaluation of CP is the next step in the process imo.

I really think and hope the changes this year solve some of these issues and it seems that we're just at the beginning of a new process for combat in ESO.

Aliyavana · February 2019

they should just remove cp and balance around no cp. keep cp as a visual of time played

Thevampirenight · February 2019

People should be able to get content that is rewarded in their dungeon dlcs because they payed for it and not everyone can be the 1 percent that can really do it and beat it. Nerfing dungeon dlcs and remove no death requirements to get skins and personalities. Is something I personally want to see. Last boss should have the one shot while the others do heavy damage. That is how I feel about it personally. They really need to seriously stop trying to make everything so hard and impossible for the player base. They are seriously going to need to re look at and really tweek down the difficulty in the dungeon dlc content by 50 to 60% Then work on balancing out Cp Points. Yes content people pay for in order to get a personality or skin from that dungeon 100% of the player base should be able to get. Not 1 Percent. Rng mechanics to me are better then the no death achievement thing if they have to lock content behind something like skins and personalities it is better it is done through that then a no death achievement.

Here is why I am so against it being locked behind a no death achievement, you have a group of 4 or five people or 12 people. Not only do you not have to die but everyone else can't die either. When you have 1 shot kills going off all around you. That is extremely difficult. It is even more difficult that others are not able to die or you fail to get such achievement. Then you got someone like me who isn't as good at focusing, or thinking ahead, do to a mental disability and then that is something that might be impossible. I am someone who sometimes struggles to even avoid red mechanics unless I really am paying attention. Some people are unable to focus that long and if they go into the wrong place instant death. Your no death achievement run is a fail.

There are people also using this as a means to get rich off of players backs. Someone had a thread on this recently I think it either got deleted or closed. 8 to ten million gold just for a chance to run it. I am guessing it comes with some steep gear requirements too. Gear that might take a long time to farm or cost a lot of gold just to get. Then you might have some that might make you play a certain race or build just to go through with it. That would mean you have to do a race change. Stuff like this does not help them I think it hurts them when it comes to these dlcs selling. If its content they are not interested in and have no way of doing it realistically. They won't buy it, when they would have just for that skin or personality. The content should be about having a rewarding experience to be Immerse in story and roleplay elements of the dungeons not mobs of instant death things. That no one realistically in real life could possibly beat unless there is an army.

kypranb14_ESO · February 2019

IF CP is removed, and they don't replace it with anything, I'd like to see the ability to progress horizontally through the ability to unlock and use multiple loadouts, including Attribute Points, Armor, Active Mundus Stone(s), etc, all at the click of a button.

Though it'd be great to have an option like this, regardless of what happens with CP.

jainiadral · February 2019

Those durn low-CP casuals! There they are, messing up everything again!

Nerfing CP, just like nerfing everything else, hurts casuals.

Morgul667 · February 2019

Basically agree with OP

CP is being framed for power creep but it is only a part of the issue

Biggest issue is gear and game mechanics
Those 2 points will not stop (zos needs to sell dlc) so blocking cp is not really relevant

Better to introduce new harder content and keep old content easier to achieve

r34lian · February 2019

frostz417 wrote: »

Before I begin... this thread is only speaking of PVE.. PvP is an entirely different topic to tackle. I try to sound the least bit condescending as possible in this rant so I apologize if I do.
Now I shall begin.

Following a statement Gina made about CP being an issue within pve...Who exactly is complaining about power creep in pve? End game pve’ers don’t seem to be complaining so it has to be the low cp casual pve’ers.
Keep in mind that even Max cp folk still struggle with hitting such top tier dps and with rotations. Cp doesn’t play a large Factor in this pve “power creep” powerful sets that zos introduces each patch are to blame. End gamers perfect their rotation to maximize their damage output, and with these powerful sets it makes it even higher. Not to mention they also have good knowledge of mechanics so they know what happens and when.. meaning they’re not spending much time trying to survive and they’re just focusing on damage until they NEED to avoid or defend against said mechanic. There are MANY 810 folk who still struggle to even hit 35k which is the minimal end game dps requirement. Clearly that’s not a CP powercreep issue. It’s a “I don’t have the right sets or proper rotation” issue.
Let’s also mention how the summerset patch where 2h weapon such as staves now count as 2 piece sets had a massive boost in dps for mag, along with extremely powerful pve sets such as mantle of siroria, and arms of the relequen... both made end game dps skyrocket. Cp is not at fault for this so I’m not sure who keeps spreading these false claims.

I’m going to quote something Gina
posted about CP in the class rep meeting notes,
“We spent a fair amount of time discussing the Champion Point system because it is our belief that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed)”

Seriously? Avoiding mechanics due to CP? What? I STRONGLY disagree. As someone who’ went from cp 400 to max cp and I did mostly pve (trials vet dlc dungeons) etc. Healers aren’t needed because recently all the vet dlc dungeons zos has created are ALL ONE SHOT MECHANICS.
Falkreath hold, bloodroot force, scalecaller peak, fanglair, March of sacrifices, moon hunter keep. All these dungeons have MULTIPLE 1 shot mechanics. I won’t list them due to the list being extremely long but I can if someone really wants me to.
CP isn’t the reason for us avoiding mechanics. The reason for us avoiding mechanics because they only consist of 1 shots. Why do I need a healer if they cannot heal through a 1 shot mechanic. It’s a waste of a person. Might as well 3 dps 1 tank everything since we can just avoid the 1 shot mechanics and there’s virtually nothing to be healed from.
In veteran trials you clearly need 2 tanks 2 healers 8 damage dealers and never needed any less. The reason people burn through this content so effectively is because maybe they’ve ran the content multiple times and know what happens and when. Not to mention on PC you have addons that further help dps and mechanic knowledge.

Rather than just stating “beliefs” with no support for these empty beliefs maybe you guys should get some FACTS to support these claims instead of just discussing random topics.

I will add in another quote,
“The class reps agreed and added the problem goes deeper; since Bosses don’t have CP, they aren’t getting the -X% modifiers. The end result is that players quickly out-scale and become too strong for any PvE content that gets released.”

I will reiterate that all pve content that has gotten released recently are all either mini trials which people complete in under 10 minutes since it’s extremely short, mechanics consist of stack&burn tactics and avoid this 1 shot mechanic with minimal effort put into them or dlc dungeons with nothing but 1 shot mechanics where you don’t need a healer since as previously stated. Healers can’t heal through 1 shot mechanics so everyone just does 3 dps and a tank.
I’d like to also add in that when we actually had hard and creative trials that zos took time creating such as vmol, vhof... people took months to progress and only 4 teams that I know of across all platforms have gotten tick tock tormentor. Where as veteran asylum and veteran cloudrest people complete within 10 minutes and already have all the achievements associated with them since the mechanics are easy and repetitive.
Might I also add in ever since the 2h counting as 2 piece bonuses healers have gotten far lazier in trials since they just slap on earthgore (a set that never should’ve been created) and groups are able to survive far easier than they should be with this crutch set. Why put 100% effort when you can just have a measly earthgore proc and make the group nearly invulnerable for 6 seconds.
The issue isn’t CP making pve content too easy. No the issue zos is YOU constantly breaking things. Brokenly overpowered sets such as mantle of siroria, arms of the relequen, spell strategist, earthgore, zaan, etc etc. These sets give a massive boost to dps or healing with little to no effort at all. The issue is YOU create content like mini trials that are able to be completed in under 10 minutes since the mechanics are lazily implemented, or the fact that YOU add in DLC dungeons that ONLY contain 1 shot mechanics. Everyone runs 3 dps and a tank because all vet DLC dungeons mechanics only consist of “have x or you instantly die.” Maybe if you implemented heal checks in dungeons or actually made trials where you didn’t have to fight all the bosses at once and just have mechanics where you avoid 1 shots and actually implemented heal checks like in Veteran Halls of Fabrication content would actually be good.

Players also have become too strong because they have exponential knowledge of mechanics, Skill optimization, and gear. Cp plays a small factor in this.
People aren’t hitting 50k+ dps because of cp. they’re hitting those numbers due to perfected rotations and powerful gear and flawless skill optimization. Maybe if pve content actually has creative mechanics like the monster trials of veteran halls of fabrication and veteran maw or lorkaj where people spent MONTHS progressing and completing it instead of just easy mini trials with the same mechanics, or dungeons only consisting of 1 shot mechanics we wouldn’t be having this issue of people just completing pve content easily.

The fact that zos decided to pin the blame on CP without providing any evidence or facts to support such a claim honestly worries me since it just makes it seem like all end gamers are in for a massive and unnecessary nerf to all their characters because of the false claims of CP being an issue in pve. You need to play your game more rather than making these claims based on belief.

@Zedrian made a very good quote in one of the cp threads.
“And when you see the clear contrast in difficulty between killing a world boss, Fungal Grotto last boss and the new Hardmore trials, I don't think CP is the cause to this imbalanced difficulty, but the content itself should be revisited and adapted to the player base. When One Tamriel was released, everything outside of trials has become much easier because difficulty was meant to be adapted for everyone instead of keeping levels of difficulty”

In conclusion,
“We spent a fair amount of time discussing the Champion Point system because it is our BELIEF that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues”
beliefs mean nothing. You have provided no facts to support such a belief. A fact is your content has become too easy and I dare say lazy with mini trials being released and completed on such short notice due to the trial having easy mechanics, and vet dlc dungeons only consisting of one shot mechanics making the role of a healer obsolete.
Another fact is that zos keeps adding in overpowered sets every patch that further improve dps. Rather than adding 3 proc sets each patch maybe you should stop adding in broken sets and just fix the old ones that are completely disregarded and obsolete. I honestly am convinced zos does not play their own game as much as they need to. These constant unnecessary nerfs without any explanation or logic behind them prove it. The fact that they have “beliefs” instead of actually supporting claims with actual FACTS makes me very concerned. I sincerely hope this cp “rework” isn’t some colossal nerf to all end game players because you “believe” that cp is the reason for your content being completed so easily. This statement you guys made has me extremely worried for the future of the game.
@Zos_GinaBruno

Very true

Girl_Number8 · February 2019

I think they need to fix the performance issues that they haven't dealt with pretty much at all.

MikaHR · February 2019

Yes both CP AND gear need to be nerfed considerably because power creep has spiraled out of control and those 2 are main culprits. But BOTH need to be adressed or it is pretty much a fail.

Considering only 0,1% of playebrase are interested in last "dungeon DLC"...yeah, they need to kurb the power creep in its roots and stop releasing broken gear too or make another modifier that will make this gear ineffective in anything but highest challenge tier like 5 piece set boni: "this effect is only active in veteran trials"

KefkaGestahl · February 2019

I've said this before, but if they remove my hard-earned champion points, I don't know if I'll continue to play the game. They rang that bell. They can't un-ring it. I'm nearly at CP 810 after thirteen months of playing the game. I've played my main character for 660 hours, and that's not even counting my alts. I also run non-meta builds, as I hate following the meta, and the CP system allows me to compensate for that. I can strengthen my weaknesses to help cover my bases, and if you remove the system entirely, the vast majority of sets in the game will be worthless. Some would argue they already are worthless, but the champion system truly helps with set viability.

Siohwenoeht · February 2019

KefkaGestahl wrote: »

I've said this before, but if they remove my hard-earned champion points, I don't know if I'll continue to play the game. They rang that bell. They can't un-ring it. I'm nearly at CP 810 after thirteen months of playing the game. I've played my main character for 660 hours, and that's not even counting my alts. I also run non-meta builds, as I hate following the meta, and the CP system allows me to compensate for that. I can strengthen my weaknesses to help cover my bases, and if you remove the system entirely, the vast majority of sets in the game will be worthless. Some would argue they already are worthless, but the champion system truly helps with set viability.

I would be truly surprised if they removed them entirely. I do think a rework is in order but I'd be upset as well if they changed to just "flavor" choices as was suggested in other threads. The game needs character progression and not just through fotm sets.

Turelus · February 2019

Aliyavana wrote: »

they should just remove cp and balance around no cp. keep cp as a visual of time played

I would like to see the harvesting passive etc. remain as they're great things to have an unlock, but otherwise I agree.

Trying to balance around CP and Non-CP is stupid, they need to choose one format and stick to it.

Nebthet78 · February 2019

@frostz417

Here is a long essay I made in regards to the need to keep CP, the Power Creep, why and among other pain points experienced by the middle tiered players.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458667/progression-atrophy-the-need-for-power-creep-in-eso-other-pain-points-for-middle-tiered-players/p1

Personally, I would like them to CAP Max DPS at 50k, and allow the CP system to continue to that cap, then put in a horizontal only tree with Quality of Life and Utility Choices for end game users. In addition to capping some of our attributes. ie: Recovery.. etc so players don't just get over powered compared to content.
This will allow lower skilled players to eventually reach the DPS CAP and to play all the content at the highest level if they wish, and prevent the highest skilled players from continuing to increase the DPS gap.
Then remove CP from PVP entirely, as this seems to cause the most issues there.

MikaHR · February 2019

Turelus wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

they should just remove cp and balance around no cp. keep cp as a visual of time played

I would like to see the harvesting passive etc. remain as they're great things to have an unlock, but otherwise I agree.

Trying to balance around CP and Non-CP is stupid, they need to choose one format and stick to it.

Yes, CP should be utlility NON combat system...QoL mostly. More and more people are gravitatng to non-CP naturally as they are aware what CP does to their enjoyment...and the game.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

@frostz417

Here is a long essay I made in regards to the need to keep CP, the Power Creep, why and among other pain points experienced by the middle tiered players.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458667/progression-atrophy-the-need-for-power-creep-in-eso-other-pain-points-for-middle-tiered-players/p1

Power creep hurts "middle tiered" players the MOST. Keep power creep and soon there will be no middle tier.

Nebthet78 · February 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

they should just remove cp and balance around no cp. keep cp as a visual of time played

I would like to see the harvesting passive etc. remain as they're great things to have an unlock, but otherwise I agree.

Trying to balance around CP and Non-CP is stupid, they need to choose one format and stick to it.

Yes, CP should be utlility NON combat system...QoL mostly. More and more people are gravitatng to non-CP naturally as they are aware what CP does to their enjoyment...and the game.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

@frostz417

Here is a long essay I made in regards to the need to keep CP, the Power Creep, why and among other pain points experienced by the middle tiered players.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458667/progression-atrophy-the-need-for-power-creep-in-eso-other-pain-points-for-middle-tiered-players/p1

Power creep hurts "middle tiered" players the MOST. Keep power creep and soon there will be no middle tier.

You obviously didn't read my essay.

Jhalin · February 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

they should just remove cp and balance around no cp. keep cp as a visual of time played

I would like to see the harvesting passive etc. remain as they're great things to have an unlock, but otherwise I agree.

Trying to balance around CP and Non-CP is stupid, they need to choose one format and stick to it.

Yes, CP should be utlility NON combat system...QoL mostly. More and more people are gravitatng to non-CP naturally as they are aware what CP does to their enjoyment...and the game.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

@frostz417

Here is a long essay I made in regards to the need to keep CP, the Power Creep, why and among other pain points experienced by the middle tiered players.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458667/progression-atrophy-the-need-for-power-creep-in-eso-other-pain-points-for-middle-tiered-players/p1

Power creep hurts "middle tiered" players the MOST. Keep power creep and soon there will be no middle tier.

What? Power creep slowly provides more power to middle tier players so that they can complete more punishing content. How is that hurting them?

Or are you trying to once again blame ZOS’s design choice on CP? Or their choice to keep neutering skills and basic build choices to ensure their new overpowered sets and skill lines get sold?

A player that has had the same former-BiS gear setup from two years ago, will undoubtedly be weaker than they were at that time. All because the bar is raised by ill-designed and too strong sets, not the minuscule amounts of power grated by CP.

MikaHR · February 2019

The effect is cumulative and CP/gear are main culprits for power creep spiraling out of control leaving anyone not in hihest tier in the dust.

Difficulty should be NORMALIZED in trials with normal/vet/vet+/ even "master mode" and THAT should be difficulty progression NOT gear/CP treadmill that leaves anyone else in the dust. Meaning progression based on SKILL not gear+CP crutch when you get to a point when you can just burn down everything and avoid most of mechanics (less, more forgiving mechanics should be on normal and progress to master tier NORMALIZED across trials)

Because guess what: players will demand "latest and greatest" no matter what...and how will you obtain latest and greatest when you need latest and greatest to obtain it? Or as a new player you are told "810 CP or GTFO NOOB". People with 500-600 CP are being kicked out of dungeons....so stop excusing those anti gaming systems.

So yeah power creep (CP+gear) need complete NERF to before power creep levels.

BrokenString · February 2019

Ok so I think this subject is really hard to address, I dont know what can be done about it e probably ZOS doesn't know it either because it is really hard. What can be done that will improve player experience? I don't know! And you guys don't know it either. I've read a lot of complaints and new ideas about what to do with cp but none of them would work.

I came from wow to this game and I'll share my experience there. The progression works this way:

There's a gear check with item level aka ilevel to enter certain instances, and the raid instances are highly mechanic focused. So it is more about player skill and knowledge than anything else, you could be max ilevel and fail hard in the first boss, but also could be at minimum ilevel and do it flawlessly. Seems good right?
Except it is not. What this did was that players became extremely toxic and elitists toward others because the slight f*** up you'll get roasted by the party, 100% guaranteed. Tanks suffer the most and the lack of tanks is a huge issue.

Character progression is an issue that no game has achieved perfection, because it is really hard to do. We can only hope that ZOS will come up with a new and really good idea, because removing CP and making it all about skill and knowledge is not the way to go. Also increasing CP is not a good idea, 810 players are pretty much OP at this point.

I just wanna wish ZOS good luck

Mr_Walker · February 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

they should just remove cp and balance around no cp. keep cp as a visual of time played

I would like to see the harvesting passive etc. remain as they're great things to have an unlock, but otherwise I agree.

Trying to balance around CP and Non-CP is stupid, they need to choose one format and stick to it.

Yes, CP should be utlility NON combat system...QoL mostly. More and more people are gravitatng to non-CP naturally as they are aware what CP does to their enjoyment...and the game.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

@frostz417

Here is a long essay I made in regards to the need to keep CP, the Power Creep, why and among other pain points experienced by the middle tiered players.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458667/progression-atrophy-the-need-for-power-creep-in-eso-other-pain-points-for-middle-tiered-players/p1

Power creep hurts "middle tiered" players the MOST. Keep power creep and soon there will be no middle tier.

What? Power creep slowly provides more power to middle tier players so that they can complete more punishing content. How is that hurting them?

Or are you trying to once again blame ZOS’s design choice on CP? Or their choice to keep neutering skills and basic build choices to ensure their new overpowered sets and skill lines get sold?

A player that has had the same former-BiS gear setup from two years ago, will undoubtedly be weaker than they were at that time. All because the bar is raised by ill-designed and too strong sets, not the minuscule amounts of power grated by CP.

Ah, someone who has looked at, and understands the maths. CP is heavily front-loaded. CP power creep past CP500 (and even before that) is miniscule (and appropriate to character progression as befits an RPG).

Kulvar · February 2019

Power creep is a byproduct of releasing new gear better than the older ones so people are incentivize in doing new content ("rewarded for doing it" in marketing language).

Rex-Umbra · February 2019

Agree with all the damn 1 shot mechanics

lolli42 · February 2019

KefkaGestahl wrote: »

I've said this before, but if they remove my hard-earned champion points, I don't know if I'll continue to play the game. They rang that bell. They can't un-ring it. I'm nearly at CP 810 after thirteen months of playing the game. I've played my main character for 660 hours, and that's not even counting my alts. I also run non-meta builds, as I hate following the meta, and the CP system allows me to compensate for that. I can strengthen my weaknesses to help cover my bases, and if you remove the system entirely, the vast majority of sets in the game will be worthless. Some would argue they already are worthless, but the champion system truly helps with set viability.

I think they would leave u the points and let you spend it in what every system they gonna invent instead

Ohtimbar · February 2019

Nice to hear that these so-called "reps" (appointed by the devs) agree with the devs who appointed them. How convenient. I don't feel particularly well represented by these random people, nor I suspect would a majority of the players were they polled on these matters. No offense intended, of course, but it all smells funny to me. Perhaps my opinion would count if I had enough followers on twitch, or whatever goofy metric they're using to determine the relevance of a given opinion.

More to the point, this wave of nerfophilia afflicting the devs of late does not fill me with confidence about the future of this title. It doesn't seem like an especially auspicious way to 'celebrate' the games fifth year.

idk · February 2019

Actually, players have commented on power creep in PvE. However, some are very mistaken to think it is mostly CP, when it is clearly not.

The majority of power creep comes from changes Zos makes that have nothing to do with CP. A player named Code started a thread with a well written OP that has a fabulous example of what is actually going on. You can read it below.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457290/the-real-source-of-power-creep

So it is not CP that is the issue with Power Creep. This is not suggesting CP should not be changes but if people do not identify the actual cause of something they cannot develop an appropriate solution.

MikaHR · February 2019

Of course, but CP+gear are culprit of 80% of power creep issues. Those 2 need to be dealt with and then you can start looking into 80% of the rest that casuse 20% of the issues.

Everythng else is just pointless, nerfing few skills here and there will amount to....nothing really.

And PvP is completely different story as all this PvE crap should be disabled in PvP (especially PvE gear should be made completely ineffective in PvP and there are already no CP campaigns/BGs)

SoLooney · February 2019

Cp is virtually not an issue for pve content. Who in the world is complaining about bring stronger and more resilient with more cp? No one except for those people who cant hit high numbers or are constant floor lords because they cant follow mechanics

Also, the cp system is front loaded meaning lower cp players arent nearly as weak or behind as maxed cp players. If you want more cp, then earn it and grind it. We all did. Theres plenty of 2x xp events and a ton of xp scrolls from daily rewards

Having maxed cp wont automatically grant you amazing dps. There are plenty of max cp players who hit like potatoes and die constantly in end game content

Like the OP said, being a good player with a good rotation will always come out on top. And of course having the gear

Cp is a very small contributor to power creep. You really think 10 cp for the blue tree each patch is gonna raise dps that significantly? Absolutely not

Also, people are saying remove cp. How is that gonna solve anything, you're not gonna sustain for sh*t, be super squishy, and hit like a potato. Not to mention losing maxed resources

The only reason cp is an issue is for pvp, that's where all the crying is coming from but I'm not gonna talk about it

Mr_Walker · February 2019

SoLooney wrote: »

The only reason cp is an issue is for pvp, that's where all the crying is coming from but I'm not gonna talk about it

I still don't know why people cry about PvP. Esp in regards to CP. They all have the same access to CP.

People just like to whinge.

Nerf sloads.

Qbiken · February 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

Of course, but CP+gear are culprit of 80% of power creep issues. Those 2 need to be dealt with and then you can start looking into 80% of the rest that casuse 20% of the issues.

Everythng else is just pointless, nerfing few skills here and there will amount to....nothing really.

And PvP is completely different story as all this PvE crap should be disabled in PvP (especially PvE gear should be made completely ineffective in PvP and there are already no CP campaigns/BGs)

If we only look at the PvE side of things (which seems to be the topic of this thread) these are in my opinion the main "culprits" to the latest power creep:

1. Increased damage from light attacks (LA) with Summerset: This change had an huge impact on overall DPS increase assuming you can learn to weave in LA between skills. '

2. Increased the impact of how backbar enchants can proc: With wolfhunter and Murkmire it´s very noticable that enchants have had a bigger impact on your DPS than before, simply because they proc more reliably than before.

3. New more powerful gear: This was more noticable for stamina DPS (Relequen) than it was for magicka DPS imo. s

In my opinion all these 3 have had bigger impact on the PvE side than CP ever had. Is CP apart of the Power creep? Obviously yes, but I disagree that CP has that much of an impact as people claim.

Peekachu99 · February 2019

Gear and these ridiculous and ever-increasing in power proc sets are just as much of an issue.

Game needs a.) full item table rebalancing b.) CP rework.

One of these fixes alone is not enough. And the piecemeal touchups they’re doing on a few sets here and there are laughable in a game with now hundreds of gear configs.