Is eso too much based on maths instead of taste?

Ottma · February 2019

For me elder scrolls games were about huge immersion and I liked to play a role in such a strange world.
Now eso for me is far less like the other es games (of course it's a mmo..)
But still I feel maths are way too important in this game.
Balance is way to pvp-orientated and eso takes the choices of taste and makes them become choices of "if you wanna do this, you have to have this and that skill and that stat"
I mean we always have to keep ourselves "informed" or do the maths on ourselves before a new build can be done if it's supposed to be a good one. Why can't it be about taste and have a good outcome as well? Why so many variables? It's not "hard" to find out about the right cps and the best skills.. But still one can totally mess up if he isn't informed about the maths and that is something I don't feel good with
I mean, look at the current changes to racial passives and how the crowd reacts.. It's about maths
A game should be about fun and not be like something you need to do more for if you want to be fit or "viable"
So what do you guys think?

Edit: I really like this game for years now and I don't wanna whine. I'm just kinda worried or you could maybe say the maths are like sorrows to me sometimes

SgtSilock · February 2019

You don't have to min/max, ESO is the kind of the game where it doesn't really matter how perfect your DPS is. It helps in certain situations sure, but it isn't a barrier of entry and nor is your build.

My point is, play what you want to play, and how you want to play it.

VaranisArano · February 2019

Anything to do with the meta, be it end game PVE or competitive PVP, has a heavy emphasis on math.

Especially end-game PVE, which is focused on maximizing efficiency for group content.

The single player TES games didn't have an end-game that required BIS gear/weapons and efficient player cooperation to complete.

DeadlyRecluse · February 2019

It's not "too much math based."

You can complete pretty much all content with a fluffy build. It's only difficulty-added modes and challenges that require a level of adaptation.

Royaji · February 2019

Every game can be reduced to math in it's basis. This is how they work. Online games and especially MMOs just tend to show it a bit more.

You are free to choose if that math is what is important for you or not. For some people math is the reason to play a game and have fun. Don't like it that way? Don't do it. But leave others to have their fun too.

Ottma · February 2019

SgtSilock wrote: »

My point is, play what you want to play, and how you want to play it.

That's exactly what I want. I am really curious if it's only my feeling, that it ain't the case. Maybe I just read too much whiners in this forum and became infected. I really hope so

Thank you

VaranisArano wrote: »

Anything to do with the meta, be it end game PVE or competitive PVP, has a heavy emphasis on math.

Especially end-game PVE, which is focused on maximizing efficiency for group content.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't want the game like "I can't do vMoL for example cause I don't have te stats"

rabidmyers · February 2019

i dont min/max and i do just fine, i like to play what i like, which is why i play stam argonians in both pve and pvp, and not just for the "pot passive" argonians are just the master race is all

Ottma · February 2019

rabidrufus64 wrote: »

i dont min/max and i do just fine, i like to play what i like

Okay nice. And do you play "end game content" or pvp?

Royaji wrote: »

Don't like it that way? Don't do it. But leave others to have their fun too.

I do this poll to find out. As I said I want the game to be fun and I know people have fun in different ways. Has to be like that

WhyMustItBe · February 2019

I personally wish that instead of playing "Racial Roulette" (tm) and radically changing the race meta every year or so forcing everyone to buy race change tokens, that they instead adopted a system like many here have proposed where current racials are broken into tiers and any character can choose any passive from any tier and re-spec at any time using gold as with skill resets.

This current system I feel goes completely against the RPG spirit of TES in favor of a mathematical meta chase that sells more tokens but loses soul in the process, especially when decades-long racial lore are just removed on a whim for the sake of 'balance."

Dojohoda · February 2019

Tastes like chicken

There's plenty of math, of course, and remember the Mechanics. There're lots of mechanics. Get your stats, but "Play the mechanics." Stats are wasted if a player is ignoring mechanics. I'm not merely referring to PVE, I also mean PVP.

Danikat · February 2019

I suspect the big difference is actually that you're more likely to hear what other people say you "should" do or have to do in an MMO than in a single player game.

Stats and the maths behind them aren't unique to ESO or MMOs, it's been an aspect of all RPGs as long as the genre has existed (and is probably part of the reason they have a reputation for being games only geeks and nerds are willing to play), ESO is actually simpler than some - including some of the TES games.

I always have trouble trying to sort out major and minor skills, attributes and specialisations in Morrowind, especially for my favourite character - a khajiit using light armour, short blades, destruction and restoration, acrobatics, athletics, security and anything else I could cram in there. The heap of paper on my desk probably still has a piece where I tried to work it all out. I was actually a bit disappointed when Oblivion, Skyrim and ESO made it progressively easier (in ESO she's a DW templar).

But part of the reason I did that is because I actually enjoy theory crafting - creating my own builds. Not necessarily good builds but ones which are interesting for me to play. I like trying to figure out something that will work, and understanding why it works. If I didn't want to do that then I'd probably just go with whatever interests me, which IMO is easier to do in ESO than Morrowind because there's less flexibility - you have to pick a class which restricts you to 3 of 15 class skill lines, which include the majority of spells. Then you pick 1 or 2 weapons and you're most of the way there.

People absolutely do work out the best possible builds in single player games - it came as a bit of a surprise when I joined this forum to learn that "everyone" used a bow in Skyrim. I think I tried it two or three times and gave it up in favour of ranged spells, but apparently bows were the 'meta' build and everyone was using them all the time, I just never got the memo because since it was a single player game (and a lot of my friends played it so I could talk to them about it) I wasn't as interested in seeking out an online community and so never heard about what everyone absolutely had to play because someone had declared it the best.

Whereas in ESO you almost can't avoid that, even if you don't visit the forum because they'll be right there in the game telling you.

generalmyrick · February 2019

if the maths weren't a big part of this game i might have played...a month. maybe.

dem0n1k · February 2019

Pretty much what the replies above this one have already said... you can make an ESO build based purely on 'taste' & ignore the technical details of how it functions in combat.. but it will only ever be good for RP & overland content. If ZOS made all content viable with RP builds the min/max'ers would trounce all content in an afternoon & then bag the game out as 'too easy'.

Tasear · February 2019

It likely exists in all games but eso will show emphasis because of the small group of players who control perception. In reality most of the game you don't have to worry about it. If that doesn't work become a tank...we need more tanks ...😉

VaranisArano · February 2019

Ottma wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Anything to do with the meta, be it end game PVE or competitive PVP, has a heavy emphasis on math.

Especially end-game PVE, which is focused on maximizing efficiency for group content.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't want the game like "I can't do vMoL for example cause I don't have te stats"

Um...I'm not sure I quite understand what you are going for here.

If you want to do vMOL, why wouldn't you want to have sufficient stats to complete it? (Usually, going into content without sufficient stats to complete the content as a valid member of the team means you are asking other people to carry you.)

Alternatively, do you mean "People won't let me on their team for vMOL because I'm not meta even though I have the stats to complete vMOL."?

If its the first one...

If you want to play any build that's to your taste, overland questing is your jam. You can do pretty much any build you want and be viable.

If you want to do group content, you need to have stats that match your role. If you are a tank, I expect you to taunt and be able to survive. If you heal, be alive and able to heal and buff the group. If you are a damage dealer, well, you darned well need the stats to do damage for appropriate for the level of content where you want to play. You picked a role - you need to have the stats to play that role effectively.

Now, how you get that level of DPS, tanking, or healing required is up to you and your group. You don't need a perfectly min-maxed build with the current meta best-in-slot race/class combo with gear from Alcast to complete the content in the game. it might make it easier, but its not mandatory. You just need a group willing to take you with whatever your build is (again, easier if the closer you are to the meta) and sufficient tanking, healing, or DPS to complete the content.

But...

If you want to complete content with the most efficiency - you need to follow the meta and min/max.
If you want your group to get the most benefits from working together - you need to follow the meta and min/max.
If you want to compete for the top of the leaderboards or reach for the highest DPS - you need to follow the meta and min/max.

If its the second one...

Trials and dungeons are group efforts. So the more everyone contributes to the group, the more efficiently and easier the run becomes. That's why you see Trials Tanks wearing Ebon Armory/Alkosh and Healers wearing Olorime because those sets benefit the whole group. In the past, DDs used to coordinate Sunderflame and NMG to reach the penetration cap. The whole group min-maxes so they can easier complete the content.

So groups that want more efficient runs are going to have higher requirements than groups who don't care as much.

If you want to run an off-meta build that can complete the content, find a group that will let you run that build. Groups that require the meta do so because they want their group to have an easier, more efficient run and they are willing to min-max to make that happen.

You mentioned that ESO doesn't feel as much like a TES game because of the math. Well, my answer is that the other TES games didn't have group content that rewarded min-maxing. ESO is a totally different game in terms of having an actual endgame or group content where you actually have to work with other players.

On the other hand? Morrowind and especially Oblivion had a ton of math involved when it came to leveling. The math involved in getting those +5 modifers to attributes when you leveled? Ooh boy, I'm glad Skyrim did away with that. Oblivion in particular had a very min-maxed system where you could "play against the majors" by making your minor skills the ones you leveled so you could be rather powerful despite your relatively low level.

Kiralyn2000 · February 2019

Welcome to every MMO ever.

No matter what you do, there will be "theorycrafters" who figure out the Best Possible Build, and there will be meta-chasers who think that anything except the Best Possible Build is total garbage.

And this is just in PvE. (the "progression" raid/trial/hardmode crowd). Separating PvE and PvP won't "fix" this.

(doing separate PvE and PvP skill balance isn't about getting rid of "meta" and "theorycrafting". It's about not having a PvP change to Skill A or Game Mechanic B totally screw up PvE use of Skill A or Game Mechanic B, and vice versa)

Meanwhile, all the folks who Just Play The Game will happily putter along with their inefficient build, bad race/class synergy, and non-BiS gear selection. But most of them don't post on the forums - the forum population is disproportionately heavy on people who Really Really Care about a .5% DPS increase.

edit: and you know? There's people like this in singleplayer TES games. I remember folks complaining about how broken certain combinations of Skyrim skills were (especially when you force-ground them to max ASAP) and how they totally removed all challenge - but when people said "Well, how about not doing the Big Broken Combo That Annoys You?", they'd scream about how dare anyone suggest they "self-nerf" and not play a game at Maximum Possible Power!)

Jameliel · February 2019

You hit the nail on the head when you said it's not like other ES games. At this point feels like a lost cause. It's just another generic mmo using the TES name.

WhyMustItBe · February 2019

I don't think it is an "either/or" proposition. There is no reason you can't make an RPG with in-depth character customization and lore while also having the OPTION to go into theory crafting and maths to grow your character.

The problem is that ZOS is not willing to spend money on things like a better CHARACTER based passive spec system instead of just shifting racials around, or adding sub-factions you can gain rep with to unlock temporary skills or unique morphs, etc.

We lost a lot when spell crafting was tossed out and the end result is a focus on fluff, which is unfortunate.

The other problem is that ZOS is not very good at balance. They don't have a good concept of how to impose a skillcap ceiling in their maths nor are they apparently cognizant of the 6-7% gap between races alone they have created with this latest 'balance' pass which was intended to 'fix' the current ~5% gap between weakest and strongest.

You CAN have both RPG and math, in fact D&D has tons of both. But you have to actually build up the RPG part of it in order to support your maths. That is the real balance.

Anrose · February 2019

Ottma wrote: »

SgtSilock wrote: »

My point is, play what you want to play, and how you want to play it.

That's exactly what I want. I am really curious if it's only my feeling, that it ain't the case. Maybe I just read too much whiners in this forum and became infected. I really hope so Thank you

VaranisArano wrote: »

Anything to do with the meta, be it end game PVE or competitive PVP, has a heavy emphasis on math.

Especially end-game PVE, which is focused on maximizing efficiency for group content.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't want the game like "I can't do vMoL for example cause I don't have te stats"

But you shouldn’t be able to do vMoL if you don’t have the stats. That’s what normal difficulty content is for.

The emphasis on stats is proportional to the difficulty of the content you’re trying to complete.

RP/story questing = wear whatever you want
Vet dungeons = have good gear/skill
Vet trials = bring the best gear and be a good player

It’s up to you how seriously you want to play, but in order to complete all the content available, you may need to be more serious than you expected.

Tasear · February 2019

Anrose wrote: »

Ottma wrote: »

SgtSilock wrote: »

My point is, play what you want to play, and how you want to play it.

That's exactly what I want. I am really curious if it's only my feeling, that it ain't the case. Maybe I just read too much whiners in this forum and became infected. I really hope so Thank you

VaranisArano wrote: »

Anything to do with the meta, be it end game PVE or competitive PVP, has a heavy emphasis on math.

Especially end-game PVE, which is focused on maximizing efficiency for group content.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't want the game like "I can't do vMoL for example cause I don't have te stats"

But you shouldn’t be able to do vMoL if you don’t have the stats. That’s what normal difficulty content is for.

The emphasis on stats is proportional to the difficulty of the content you’re trying to complete.

RP/story questing = wear whatever you want
Vet dungeons = have good gear/skill
Vet trials = bring the best gear and be a good player

It’s up to you how seriously you want to play, but in order to complete all the content available, you may need to be more serious than you expected.

You don't need the best gear to complete trials. Hell if you know mechs you don't even need 20k dps for vmol.

Anrose · February 2019

Tasear wrote: »

Anrose wrote: »

Ottma wrote: »

SgtSilock wrote: »

My point is, play what you want to play, and how you want to play it.

That's exactly what I want. I am really curious if it's only my feeling, that it ain't the case. Maybe I just read too much whiners in this forum and became infected. I really hope so Thank you

VaranisArano wrote: »

Anything to do with the meta, be it end game PVE or competitive PVP, has a heavy emphasis on math.

Especially end-game PVE, which is focused on maximizing efficiency for group content.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't want the game like "I can't do vMoL for example cause I don't have te stats"

But you shouldn’t be able to do vMoL if you don’t have the stats. That’s what normal difficulty content is for.

The emphasis on stats is proportional to the difficulty of the content you’re trying to complete.

RP/story questing = wear whatever you want
Vet dungeons = have good gear/skill
Vet trials = bring the best gear and be a good player

It’s up to you how seriously you want to play, but in order to complete all the content available, you may need to be more serious than you expected.

You don't need the best gear to complete trials. Hell if you know mechs you don't even need 20k dps for vmol.

That’s where the second part “being a good player” comes in.

Skullstachio · February 2019

Both really, the game has both math and taste.

Truth be told, there is nothing wrong with having too many mathematics, not only does it indirectly make you smarter, but it spreads out the depth of your mind and potentially increases overall mental effectiveness in a wide variety of games and not just ESO.

Zhoyzu · February 2019

i HATE math

commdt · February 2019

Based on maths? Man look at jewelry master writs, math would commit suicide if it saw them

Nebthet78 · February 2019

SgtSilock wrote: »

You don't have to min/max, ESO is the kind of the game where it doesn't really matter how perfect your DPS is. It helps in certain situations sure, but it isn't a barrier of entry and nor is your build.

My point is, play what you want to play, and how you want to play it.

You don't do end game content do you? Vet Trials and HM DLC Dungeons?

If you aren't pulling 30k+ dps, then you aren't going into any Vet Trials runs past VMOL. That's just how trials guilds are now.

Ajax_22 · February 2019

This is standard for any MMO. There is always a mathematically superior way to do things, and people who want to be the best will always find it. The average person can treat this game like any other Elder Scrolls game and play anyway you want to.

TheBonesXXX · February 2019

I don't care for how the math brings ESO so far from the TES series.

But those where all design choices I didn't get to make, I'd have never let ESO get so far from TES.

It would have been a seamless, complete open world TES. I also have no prob telling the ratings guys to get bent.

Chirru · February 2019

Without Math the game would not work at all and that should be clear to anyone not born in the medieval times.

My opinion is clear ...math is needed...BUT...

If number-crunching gets in the way of immersion and enjoyment then something is wrong in my opinion.

Granted...some people get happiness from crunching numbers...but (my guess) most players do not.

What irks me is the (to me obvious) fact that the Developers (appear to) balance game play by crunching PvP numbers.

It is (to me) very obvious that the overwhelming number of Nerf decisions are being made to balance PvP game-play and does only marginally consider the outcome to the large number of Players who never (or only sporadically) engage in PvP play.

I lament the fact

Kadoin · February 2019

Nothing stops you from doing what you want to do...especially in PvP. The question after that will be how well you can use what you decided to do and whether or not you like it's shortcomings.

Personally, I don't care what anyone does in PvE as long as they don't leech and try. It's not the end of the world for me when I tank or heal if a boss wipes me from DPS check and it has to be beaten in another way. Also not the end of the world if a run takes longer.

I'm never arrogant and think there's nothing to learn or see in a dungeon I've done multiple times, or push the blame for a wipe on anyone else. Every time I play the game I'm always observing closely and learning something new, especially in combat situations.

For me that's more fun than a fast run...and that knowledge becomes very useful outside of dungeons as well.

geonsocal · February 2019

math = bad

Vildebill · February 2019

The whole universe as we know it is based on math. That includes this game as well.

Good you can focus on exactly what you want

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Is eso too much based on maths instead of taste?

Is eso too much based on maths instead of taste? 236 votes