[PTS] Bleed builds feel underwhelming (Even though I know they perform really well in PVP)

validifyedneb18_ESO · February 2019

So, id like to know what other people who have tried bleed builds (particularly on the PTS but just in general) feel about this.

Bleeds are clearly really good in PVP, pretty much off the table for PVE, but even for PVP where it shines, it feels underwhelming or messy.

I think part of this is to do with a lot of random pieces and that nothing is like a true main bleed.

I've main'd feral for years in WOW, which after years of ESO drove me to try a bleed build here, and on feral I feel there are really only two bleeds;

A less powerful dot that is simply kept up (Maybe with a bloodtallons proc buff - think Maelstrom duelweild but slower to get the buffs so you cant spend them on everything) - I like to think this is like the DW second ability that bleeds
A big hitter that lasts longer and you need to prep with combo points before using. (Kinda like rend, the DW ultimate, but where you are capable of keeping it 100% uptime if you time things well enough)

There are a couple other bleeds, but they do almost nothing. The key playstyle, and balance (when bleeds arent relegated to almost-useless status) are focused on just these two.

I feel like the Axe bleeds only serve to be RNG-heavy elements in a bleed playstyle that only serve to make the build both less consistent and also slightly more annoying to play against in PVP. Id rather have more controlled bleeds that are easier to keep in check but hit harder. I also run pillars of nirn, having tried BloodDrinker + Deadly Strikes and found it gives much less ST dps. This is a real shame as it seems the only viable build is stacking more RNG bleed dots rather than maintaining big dots. I feel like the play-style would be more rewarding with good uptime maintenance rather than buffing the *** out of a single dot or hoping a bunch of RNG dots proc.

Im not calling for a rework, just observing that I think a lot more could be done with a mind specifically for people who wanted to play with bleeds. Changes could both make them more viable in PVE and easier to balance in PVP. I think there could be a lot cooler stuff done with this.

But mostly I wanted to hear what other people where feeling about their bleed builds.

usmcjdking · February 2019

As someone who cheesed people with a Double Cassidy Predator Bleed build in The Division when there was no way to get rid of it.

Nah. Better off keeping it dead.

Ysbriel · February 2019

I have never done a bleed build but I have dueled people with bleed builds with my tank as a test of how it was performing and practice how to manage the resources and such, and I would tell you that as you stated it works good on pvp its actually an understatement. bleed is too powerful on PvP, the only way to stay alive against one opponent was to switch up to gear that provided heals. I believe that if ZOS would work on how bleed can be blocked since even when blocking you take damage and still have bleed proc which I don't really understand that but it happens, you can get 5k bleed damage from twin blade blunt and 5k from rending slashes at the same time and also be poisoned and befouled. so it really might need a reduction on PvP and a buff on PvE, on a side note this guy was using the masters axe and the fight was in mournold, are you using masters weapons?

Ashanne · February 2019

Never thought id see the day underwhelming and bleeds were used in the same sentence.
@Skander, where are you?

Juhasow · February 2019

I dont know personally I like my build for stamsorc on PTS where I get 7-8k DPS out of the bleeds alone.

Here for example rending slashes bleed did 6,1k and twin blade and blunt bleed 1,6k

validifyedneb18_ESO · February 2019

Juhasow wrote: »

I dont know personally I like my build for stamsorc on PTS where I get 7-8k DPS out of the bleeds alone.

Here for example rending slashes bleed did 6,1k and twin blade and blunt bleed 1,6k

Yeah I can pull about 25k DPS from a pure bleed centric build, has a lot of issues that hold it back though. Blooddrinker immediately pegs you into a all bleeds or nothing situation, I only have 3 bleeds, Carve, Slashes and Nirn (And the less regular rend) and they just cant carry dps.

You obviously take the full meta with Relequens and vMA bow, and I assume YA, to get 63k DPS, but it upsets me that I cant get even beyond 25k without resorting to a meta fallback.

Blooddrinker could be replaced with the new Deadly Strikes, but then you're basically admitting defeat and that most of your damage will be from non bleed dots, vMA bow could be used but your losing the carve bleed from the 2h (A shame, even if its not that good and 2h cant proc enchants from offbar).

Also been playing around a lot with decisive with carve to try and get rends out with more uptime, Got to 62% uptime but its about a 1:1 with loss as you stat into ult gen and gain as you get higher rend uptime. No change in damage.

validifyedneb18_ESO · February 2019

Ysbriel wrote: »

I have never done a bleed build but I have dueled people with bleed builds with my tank as a test of how it was performing and practice how to manage the resources and such, and I would tell you that as you stated it works good on pvp its actually an understatement. bleed is too powerful on PvP, the only way to stay alive against one opponent was to switch up to gear that provided heals. I believe that if ZOS would work on how bleed can be blocked since even when blocking you take damage and still have bleed proc which I don't really understand that but it happens, you can get 5k bleed damage from twin blade blunt and 5k from rending slashes at the same time and also be poisoned and befouled. so it really might need a reduction on PvP and a buff on PvE, on a side note this guy was using the masters axe and the fight was in mournold, are you using masters weapons?

Bleeds can work for PVP and PVE, this is known and has worked in other games, and its disappointing to see it in ESO be in such a bad place. Because it works so well in PVP, but is never used in PVE, it just gets routinely nerfed.

The first key issue is how much more central armor is in this game to other games, penetration is BIS over other stats that increase damage, so bleeds are more efficient as you effectively get a free maxed out BIS stat and can put everything into raw damage numbers. Armor pen for bleeds could maybe be reduced by half.

Second, as I mentioned, is simply how out of control the bleeds seem. Axes should have their proc removed, and maybe the effect replaced with adding upto the remaining 50% physical penetration back to your bleeds (or less). This would, hopefully, allow the other bleeds to get a bit more of a buff (particularly Slashes which feels like hitting people with a wet noodle as they do so little damage on their own that 2 HOTs can out-heal it). There needs to be more refined control in bleed builds IMO, this current system of random procs will never be properly balanced unless they simply kill the builds by nerfing bleed to the ground.

yodased · February 2019

The problem is making bleeds unique also makes them over perform against players This DOT less restrictions and don't have a counter available that actually makes sense.

Purge is not a valid tactic, out healing is not a valid tactic, blocking/mitigation obviously not a valid tactic, running away not valid as they are stam and will catch you.

Bleed builds you either bleed them out yourselves, get them from range if you can or do not engage. That in and of itself should tell you what you need to know about bleed performance.

It's not surprising that people have problems fighting bleed builds and that bleed builds want to be stronger, because ppl want to win.

validifyedneb18_ESO · February 2019

yodased wrote: »

The problem is making bleeds unique also makes them over perform against players This DOT less restrictions and don't have a counter available that actually makes sense.

Purge is not a valid tactic, out healing is not a valid tactic, blocking/mitigation obviously not a valid tactic, running away not valid as they are stam and will catch you.

Bleed builds you either bleed them out yourselves, get them from range if you can or do not engage. That in and of itself should tell you what you need to know about bleed performance.

It's not surprising that people have problems fighting bleed builds and that bleed builds want to be stronger, because ppl want to win.

They have worked in WoW for years, always a point of contention, but they can work even in a game with no healing on many classes. If anything it is the over presence of healing that makes it much harder to balance, as you need something that does good damage, but also have to consider the possibility of some 50k stam monster popping vigor and effectively deleting half your bleeds effects.

Edit: Also to make it clear, this is me both being an apologist for PVP balance, while also allowing bleeds to have more of a presence in PVE. The day BloodDrinker becomes a viable set to use to get 40k+ dps will be a happy day indeed.

Ysbriel · February 2019

well they do have a way of coding it so perhaps the dark brotherhood skill line adds more bleed damage like a hemorrhage skill passive but its for PvE, how? well if they can suppress your stealth in the Kvatch Arena they can suppress a skill on BGs and when the duel flag drops. But since Nerf is the most common request you will hear about all over the place here, they simply do just that and then try to make it better with, well here i a new set that eventually will get nerfed so enjoy it while it lasts.

Royaji · February 2019

I think your issue is trying to build something that is entirely not possible and unreasonable. There are exactly 5 abilitiy-based bleeds in the whole game and only 3 of them are active. Then there are 4 sets that can cause bleed and 3 sets (soon to be 4) that buff bleeds. You can't make a good build out of this. No ground AoE, no spammable and no benefit whatsoever from bleeds ignoring resistances because in a group bosses's resistances should already be at 0 and at this point everything works like a bleed.

There are some things people should leave in WoW when coming to ESO. No, we do not have Paladins and Dread Knights (or whatever they call them) and no, pure bleed build is never going to be competitive in PvE. It is not an issues of small tweaks but an issue of the whole game being designed differently. Just let it go.

validifyedneb18_ESO · February 2019

Royaji wrote: »

I think your issue is trying to build something that is entirely not possible and unreasonable. There are exactly 5 abilitiy-based bleeds in the whole game and only 3 of them are active. Then there are 4 sets that can cause bleed and 3 sets (soon to be 4) that buff bleeds. You can't make a good build out of this. No ground AoE, no spammable and no benefit whatsoever from bleeds ignoring resistances because in a group bosses's resistances should already be at 0 and at this point everything works like a bleed.

There are some things people should leave in WoW when coming to ESO. No, we do not have Paladins and Dread Knights (or whatever they call them) and no, pure bleed build is never going to be competitive in PvE. It is not an issues of small tweaks but an issue of the whole game being designed differently. Just let it go.

Yeah this is my point really, its a cool playstyle but is just not viable for PVE and too strong in PVP (resulting in nerfs). It's sad tbh.

There are interesting builds in this game, like Elemental mages, Frostden, FireKnight, Shocksorc, stealthers, PoisonKnights, but no bleeds

Usually the way these builds get in this game is starting with a class with that focus, and augmenting it with a weapon skill line. (Wardens winters embrace with an ice staff for example), but there is nothing for bleeds.

Skander · February 2019

Ashanne wrote: »

Never thought id see the day underwhelming and bleeds were used in the same sentence.
@Skander, where are you?

I refrain myself for sentencing something on this.

Ooh to hell with it. ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MINDS?

Ender1310 · February 2019

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

I dont know personally I like my build for stamsorc on PTS where I get 7-8k DPS out of the bleeds alone.

Here for example rending slashes bleed did 6,1k and twin blade and blunt bleed 1,6k

Yeah I can pull about 25k DPS from a pure bleed centric build, has a lot of issues that hold it back though. Blooddrinker immediately pegs you into a all bleeds or nothing situation, I only have 3 bleeds, Carve, Slashes and Nirn (And the less regular rend) and they just cant carry dps.

You obviously take the full meta with Relequens and vMA bow, and I assume YA, to get 63k DPS, but it upsets me that I cant get even beyond 25k without resorting to a meta fallback.

Blooddrinker could be replaced with the new Deadly Strikes, but then you're basically admitting defeat and that most of your damage will be from non bleed dots, vMA bow could be used but your losing the carve bleed from the 2h (A shame, even if its not that good and 2h cant proc enchants from offbar).

Also been playing around a lot with decisive with carve to try and get rends out with more uptime, Got to 62% uptime but its about a 1:1 with loss as you stat into ult gen and gain as you get higher rend uptime. No change in damage.

If by rend you mean the DW ultimate it is not a bleed

Stigant · February 2019

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Id rather have more controlled bleeds that are easier to keep in check but hit harder.

I dont know about WoW but in ESO bleed DoTs ignore all resistances. Imho, with the given set options and master weapons, they are in a good spot, even on PTS.

You 're basically asking for significant buff to something that this community strongly believes is overperforming on live and got nerfed based on that feedback on PTS.

olsborg · February 2019

As long as they nerf bleeds more for pvp im fine with whatever you do to bleeds zos.

Juhasow · February 2019

Problem is that any unique type of dmg outside classic magic or physical is not strong on it's own. Only 2 classes can make the use of unique flame or shock dmg to make builds based on those types of dmg competitive but that's because they have acces to class abilities and passives that are boosting those types of dmg. Bleed dmg status effect is basically 100% penetration so having lot of bleeds to the point somebody would be able to make whole build with full rotation based on bleed dmg abilities would be too strong in PvE because it would allow to ignore penetration buffs thus it would allow to build fully for other offensive stats and if somebody would be able to build for bleeds in PvE and pull 40k+ DPS with bleeds only that would mean insane dmg potential of bleeds in PvP and basically everyone who isnt templar wouldnt be able to survive when covered with multiple strong bleeds at once. That would also elimininate any reason to build resistances in PvP.

validifyedneb18_ESO · February 2019

Stigant wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Id rather have more controlled bleeds that are easier to keep in check but hit harder.

I dont know about WoW but in ESO bleed DoTs ignore all resistances. Imho, with the given set options and master weapons, they are in a good spot, even on PTS.

You 're basically asking for significant buff to something that this community strongly believes is overperforming on live and got nerfed based on that feedback on PTS.

honestly I feel like they should ignore only say half resistances.

And the random proc bleeds should be toned down or removed while other active ability bleeds added.

This would give more control over balance to ZOS. I can imagine its pretty hard to balance stuff when in the meetings the discussion goes something like "well, bleeds are quite strong, but they really become a problem when 8% of the time twinblade and blunt procs with a blooddrinker set and deletes someone.

Illuvatarr · February 2019

Bleeds are underwhelming? Are you *** high? Bleeds are ZOS playing the game for you. Pure skilless cheese. Find something worth complaining about....server performance comes to mind.

validifyedneb18_ESO · February 2019

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Bleeds are underwhelming? Are you *** high? Bleeds are ZOS playing the game for you. Pure skilless cheese. Find something worth complaining about....server performance comes to mind.

This is a game design issue I have, not a tuning issue. Bleeds suck because they are both overtuned, hard to balance, and lacking in fun all at the same time. Im advocating for something better for all.

Lab3360 · March 2019

yodased wrote: »

The problem is making bleeds unique also makes them over perform against players This DOT less restrictions and don't have a counter available that actually makes sense.

Purge is not a valid tactic, out healing is not a valid tactic, blocking/mitigation obviously not a valid tactic, running away not valid as they are stam and will catch you.

Bleed builds you either bleed them out yourselves, get them from range if you can or do not engage. That in and of itself should tell you what you need to know about bleed performance.

It's not surprising that people have problems fighting bleed builds and that bleed builds want to be stronger, because ppl want to win.

I have a solution

"Kill Them"

Problem solved.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · March 2019

Thanks

WeylandLabs · March 2019

As a full dot build for 3 years i agree with the OP. Unfortunately it's a playstyle that is extremely hard to master. Player's that only think one deminaional can and will always say nerf. My playstyle DW Bow Stam Sorc is going on its 10th nerf since May of 2017.

Yet players sit here and still want it nerfed, it's not the bleeds that's OP it's the players thst your fighting. Its 100% a l2p issue that new players don't get yet.