Spellcrafting.

MattT1988 · February 2019

To me spellcrafting is something people want....... until they get it and they’ll regret it.

Nerouyn · February 2019

MattT1988 wrote: »

To me spellcrafting is something people want....... until they get it and they’ll regret it.

Absolutely no chance of that.

If spellcrafting as originally advertised was implemented, I would love the *** out of it.

Ertosi · February 2019

Nerouyn wrote: »

FabresFour wrote: »

The players needs at least a clarification on this.

We've received it.

https://wccftech.com/elder-scrolls-online-interview-looking-ahead-with-game-director-matt-firor/

That's the game director in 2016 saying that spellcrafting as originally revealed was just too hard and we're unlikely to see it.

Can you haters quit purposely misquoting the ZOS team? Let's click that link and see what he actually said:

"Same thing. With spell crafting we actually got in enough to start seeing how it worked, we didn’t like the design so much and it was going to be more work than we thought to get it to launch so we kind of put it aside to do Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, One Tamriel, housing etc.

But it will come eventually, it’s just further out."

-Matt Firor, 2016

Tasear · February 2019

Nerouyn wrote: »

FabresFour wrote: »

The players needs at least a clarification on this.

We've received it.

https://wccftech.com/elder-scrolls-online-interview-looking-ahead-with-game-director-matt-firor/

That's the game director in 2016 saying that spellcrafting as originally revealed was just too hard and we're unlikely to see it.

Remember we weren't supposed to get dragons either.

K0rpeN · February 2019

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

K0rpeN wrote: »

No. You can play Skyrim if you need spellcrafting that bad. This is an MMO.

Skyrim didn't have spellcrafting...

Yes you are right. My bad. Anyway What I meant to say was that spellcrafting works only in a single player game like skyrim. Oblivion and morrowind had spellcrafting though.

Chufu · February 2019

Stamwhip!! 🥰🥰

As much as the orc would love spellcrafting... What about the balance of those abilities? I mean this system has to be restricted otherwise you'll end up with crazy abilities. And at the end we'll know what's happening: only a few will be used.

Itzmichi · February 2019

You guys are way to fixated on a statement and a short teaser of 2014. It's pretty obvious they underestimated the impact, the workload and obviously the whole balancing around the system. The game always had problems in finding a good average while dealing with balancing problems.

What we can be pretty sure of is, that your hopes maybe get crushed, cause it's very likely that - that's if it's even happening at all - the system will be introduced completly different then shown in 2014.

The game grows every year and so does its features, things to balance and amount of errors and bugs. My personal opinion is that they should put a complexe system like that on hold until they fixed the current issues and performance problems many people apperantly facing.

Can't even imagine how the performance would suffer under this system even more.

SiAScORCH · February 2019

Spell crafting would create so many issue and then it'll make more people quit, then Zos will "balance" which really means need more races. Pass. it's not going to happen so give the idea up.

Chilly-McFreeze · February 2019

Tasear wrote: »

Ever since ESO first came out, the same things were said about Player Housing, Transmutation, Jewelry Crafting and Necromancers. Many players kept asking for them. Other players kept saying "No" and said to quit asking. Well, players kept asking and all of those other systems were finally added, one by one.

Tasear wrote: »

Remember we weren't supposed to get dragons either.

Sure. But Housing, Transmutation, Classes and Dragons don't have such an impact on balance, have they? Also:

Chufu wrote: »

As much as the orc would love spellcrafting... What about the balance of those abilities? I mean this system has to be restricted otherwise you'll end up with crazy abilities. And at the end we'll know what's happening: only a few will be used.

Spell crafting would be a letdown either way. If they choose to implement no restrictions, you'll end up with severe balance issues. Remeber when Rune Cage was unavoidable? Why not craft that stuff again if I can? Or an undodgeable ranged spam just because? Medium was viable long enough, right? Give me something Daedric Curse like to pack on top of my Sub Assault + DB combo. Not only that you can come up with cancer builds, it's also hard to balance the game around the sudden implementation of countless new combinations.
Or it comes with limitations that suck the envisioned fun and freedom out of it. Seems like the devs can't make it right anyway.

Either way, it will not add to build diversity in places where there are non currently. E.g. Trial Raiding. "Slot crafted spell X or be kicked" because it ups your DPS by 0,X%.

There are a lot questions to be asked:

Will stam toons get the short end of the stick? Or will they change damage scaling to make sure half the feature isn't useless for half the player population? And if they do, wouldn't that cause issues as well?
Will it blur classes and rob them their uniqueness? Should every class be able to cloak, streak, use hurricane etc.?
Will it be another endless grind like JC was/is?
Will it only shift the meta to broken things like 3x Swift + maj Exp was? And then cause nerfs to everything else instead of the original culprit?
Will it actually do something for build diversity or will it simply replace the meta like JC and Berserking Warrior?

That issues aside, how could it be implemented?

1) A new crafting station or some system outside of what already exists, where you use up your attained spell crafting mats and just create an entirely new skill in your book.
Pros: build freedom, seems the most "fun" and closest to what people envision spell crafting
Cons: balance issues

2) A new skill family with different trees like Destruction, Illusion, Alteration etc. and predefined skills with morphs.
E.g. in the destruction tree you have "Touch", "Ranged", "Cloaking", "Ground" etc. And from there on you "craft" your spells via skill point placement.
Base skill of "Touch" is ice dmg, morph 1 fire, morph 2 shock. Etc.
Pros: easier to implement, clear limits to what one could do
Cons: still balance issues, boring and limiting system, damage scaling issues for either stam or mag on many given options

3) It's implemented as scroll crafting and through consumables. Just like potions you could craft a "fire ball" scroll and use it every X seconds.
If so, they need to put it in a different cooldown system than potions. But again, a healing potion and a crafted healing scroll on different cooldowns could be problematic. Also damage would probably be fixed like on proc sets.
Pros: fixed values and options could make potential build combinations/issues less severe
Cons: essentially opening up X different skill slots on top of 10+2 system, boring and limiting design, far from "real spell crafting", just another form of "not scaling" damage which is already an issue on proc sets and turtle builds, but also hard to balance against dmg scaling alternatives

Cously · February 2019

Spellcrafting is coming, no doubt. Necromancer and Warden seems to be planned at release but only now we were milked informed of its existance.

Things must get out of the way first, racial passives is one (done), champion point system disaster revamp/removal (in the works), new class (done), etc.

If you think they won't milk us on spellcrafting you really didn't get to know this company yet. We will have f dragons now lol

Girl_Number8 · February 2019

It may happen after they gut the necromancer with nerfs once it has made them the right amount of money.

But I doubt it will happen anytime soon, if at all. They are not done ruining what they already have.

Ertosi · February 2019

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Spell crafting would be a letdown either way. If they choose to implement no restrictions, you'll end up with severe balance issues. [...] Or it comes with limitations that suck the envisioned fun and freedom out of it. Seems like the devs can't make it right anyway.

From ZOS's first teaser it was made clear spellcrafting would come with very firm limitations. It has a solid framework and you simply can't pile everything you want together. The majority of player-reasons why we shouldn't have it stem from fears it wouldn't be balanced, but that is frankly just jumping at shadows. Any new game system could be made in a balanced manner or imbalanced manner, so by that logic why ever add anything new to this game?

When crafting a spell, you pick the base spell, then add a Focus (think "morphs"; includes AOE, enduring, and ultimate). That's it... nothing crazy, nothing to be so fearful of.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Either way, it will not add to build diversity in places where there are non currently. E.g. Trial Raiding. "Slot crafted spell X or be kicked" because it ups your DPS by 0,X%.

Honestly, no. Partly because of how spellcrafting would need to be implemented to keep it balanced - all formulas to calculate spell costs should ensure that class and weapon skills always remain the most efficient abilities to use. The spellcrafting system should be designed from the perspective that it only supplements builds with options that they didn't have before; it shouldn't replace them. But mainly No simply because of the mindset of those types of players. They'll always run their numbers and will always consider their calculated BIS to be the only viable option. It wouldn't matter if you gave them millions of new options, they'd still crunch their numbers and complain that they got close to nothing because they choose to disregard almost everything. That's not a game-problem, that's a player-problem.

Once the system is added, they'll surely start adding regular new spells. I particularly hope they'll add an aggro spell as when built with the AOE focus, it would give ESO it's first group aggro ability.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Will stam toons get the short end of the stick?

Depends on all of the Focuses ZOS chooses to add. It would be a simple matter to add a Stamina and Health focus. Doing so would ensure all builds had options with the spellcrafting system, although the magicka versions would still have the edge due to only being able to pick one focus when crafting a spell.

Personally, I'd like to see Stamina and Health foci added, but so they are the only two that can be combined with other foci. This would ensure all build types are on equal footing.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Will it blur classes and rob them their uniqueness? Should every class be able to cloak, streak, use hurricane etc.?

No because that question misunderstands what a spellcrafting system would be. It's not going to add every class skill to the game in a manner that everyone could use it. Instead it's adding specific classic TES spells in a manner everyone has access to them. I'll post the 20 finished Spellcrafting spells that have been datamined further down, so everyone has a better idea what to expect.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Will it be another endless grind like JC was/is?

This won't be a popular answer, but it honestly should be! People love to hate on jewelry crafting but I cannot imagine it having been implemented in a significantly better manner. Those purple and gold mats are rare and they should be. We shouldn't be able to make high-tier jewelry willy nilly any time we want. It's fantastic having the option to do so, but in a manner that you really want to make sure you are out of other options before doing so. Sounds like it's working as intended.

The only complaint about JC I might consider valid is the grain system, but look at the alternative. If grains were removed, platings would drop directly but at 1/10th the rates... people would then complain over the perception of "never" getting drops. Seems like the grain system was really added as an intended curtesy so JC drops didn't feel so rare, but most players are choosing to interpret it as purposely making the system more complex.

Like JC, spellcrafting materials (Stone) should also be very rare, especially the higher tiers. The ability to make custom spells is awesome, but like JC, it shouldn't be something players are able to do willy nilly.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Will it actually do something for build diversity or will it simply replace the meta?

Silly question as anything new added to the game only shifts/replaces the meta. Again, that's a problem with player mindset of only wanting whatever they calculate to be BIS.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

That issues aside, how could it be implemented?

It was already shown to be a system comprised of 6 new skill lines.

1 skill line for actual spell-Crafting and 5 for the five major schools of magic. Those 5 skill lines tied to the magic schools would be similar to weapon skill lines, but would only be passive skills.

This causes me to think of an understandable reason why Spellcrafting might have been put on hold for so long... that's a lot of skill points needed to make full use of it! Crafting skill lines can have 20+ passives and weapon skill lines usually have 10 passives. ZOS might have felt the game didn't have enough easy-access skill points to support so many new skill lines. But each year, new content adds 20+ new skill points without adding many new ways to spend those points. Surely now ESO can easily support those 6 new skills.

Here are the 20 spellcrafting spells that have been datamined:

Bound Weapon
Burden
Charm
Conjure Dremora Lord
Conjure Familiar
Conjure Flame Atronach
Courage (Conjuration)
Drain Life
Fire Storm
Frenzy
Frostbite
Ice Cloak (Destruction)
Heal Other
Lightning Bolt
Magicka Resistance
Muffle (Illusion)
Oak Flesh
Paralyze
Restore Stamina
Ward Self

[source; also lists how every focus affects each spell, all directly datamined from the spell descriptions.]

It's not a terribly long list but many classic TES spells are there. I'm seeing options for each of my elementalists. I'm seeing some utility spells that would be useful for group content if built with the AOE focus like Magicka Resistance and Restore Stamina. Muffle, if crafted with the AOE focus, sounds fun for Cyrodiil!

Edit: Examples of what the datamined spells offer various roles:

Tank:
- Charm - similar to aggro abilities but forces target to come to you, making it a nice option for ranged mobs. Sadly the AOE just adds a stun effect around target.
- Frenzy - Forces monsters to attack you for X seconds and reduces their damage to allies.
- Frostbite - Damages nearby enemies and snares them.
- Ice Cloak - Increases armor and chills nearby enemies.
- Oak Flesh - Increases armor and health regen. The different foci options change it's name to things such as Ebony Flesh or Iron Flesh, keeping it nicely in-tune with previous TES games.
- Restore Stamina (reduced cost focus) - Now also restores magicka with every successful block, making it a nice option for tanks that need extra sustain.
- Conjure Dremora Lord - summons a follower that taunts enemies!
Healer:
- Drain Life (AOE focus) - Damages enemies and heals nearby allies.
- Heal Other - A nice heal option for all classes, no matter what weapon they slot.
- Magicka Resistance - great support option, especially the AOE for group content. Ultimate focus also adds magicka regen.
- Oak Flesh (AOE focus) - great support option as it increases group armor and health regen.
- Restore Stamina (AOE focus) - great support option to help with group sustain.
- Ward Self (AOE focus) - shields allies.
DD:
- Firestorm - DD to nearby enemies.
- Frost Bite - Damages nearby enemies.
- Lightning Bolt - DD and reduces their healing. The various foci add interesting extra abilities like giving it magicka return or turning it to chain lightning.
- Conjure X - Extra DD followers for any build.

Chilly-McFreeze · February 2019

Ertosi wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Spell crafting would be a letdown either way. If they choose to implement no restrictions, you'll end up with severe balance issues. [...] Or it comes with limitations that suck the envisioned fun and freedom out of it. Seems like the devs can't make it right anyway.

From ZOS's first teaser it was made clear spellcrafting would come with very firm limitations. It has a solid framework and you simply can't pile everything you want together. The majority of player-reasons why we shouldn't have it stem from fears it wouldn't be balanced, but that is frankly just jumping at shadows. Any new game system could be made in a balanced manner or imbalanced manner, so by that logic why ever add anything new to this game?

When crafting a spell, you pick the base spell, then add a Focus (think "morphs"; includes AOE, enduring, and ultimate). That's it... nothing crazy, nothing to be so fearful of.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Either way, it will not add to build diversity in places where there are non currently. E.g. Trial Raiding. "Slot crafted spell X or be kicked" because it ups your DPS by 0,X%.

Honestly, no. Partly because of how spellcrafting would need to be implemented to keep it balanced - all formulas to calculate spell costs should ensure that class and weapon skills always remain the most efficient abilities to use. The spellcrafting system should be designed from the perspective that it only supplements builds with options that they didn't have before; it shouldn't replace them. But mainly No simply because of the mindset of those types of players. They'll always run their numbers and will always consider their calculated BIS to be the only viable option. It wouldn't matter if you gave them millions of new options, they'd still crunch their numbers and complain that they got close to nothing because they choose to disregard almost everything. That's not a game-problem, that's a player-problem.

Once the system is added, they'll surely start adding regular new spells. I particularly hope they'll add an aggro spell as when built with the AOE focus, it would give ESO it's first group aggro ability.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Will stam toons get the short end of the stick?

Depends on all of the Focuses ZOS chooses to add. It would be a simple matter to add a Stamina and Health focus. Doing so would ensure all builds had options with the spellcrafting system, although the magicka versions would still have the edge due to only being able to pick one focus when crafting a spell.

Personally, I'd like to see Stamina and Health foci added, but so they are the only two that can be combined with other foci. This would ensure all build types are on equal footing.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Will it blur classes and rob them their uniqueness? Should every class be able to cloak, streak, use hurricane etc.?

No because that question misunderstands what a spellcrafting system would be. It's not going to add every class skill to the game in a manner that everyone could use it. Instead it's adding specific classic TES spells in a manner everyone has access to them. I'll post the 20 finished Spellcrafting spells that have been datamined further down, so everyone has a better idea what to expect.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Will it be another endless grind like JC was/is?

This won't be a popular answer, but it honestly should be! People love to hate on jewelry crafting but I cannot imagine it having been implemented in a significantly better manner. Those purple and gold mats are rare and they should be. We shouldn't be able to make high-tier jewelry willy nilly any time we want. It's fantastic having the option to do so, but in a manner that you really want to make sure you are out of other options before doing so. Sounds like it's working as intended.

The only complaint about JC I might consider valid is the grain system, but look at the alternative. If grains were removed, platings would drop directly but at 1/10th the rates... people would then complain over the perception of "never" getting drops. Seems like the grain system was really added as an intended curtesy so JC drops didn't feel so rare, but most players are choosing to interpret it as purposely making the system more complex.

Like JC, spellcrafting materials (Stone) should also be very rare, especially the higher tiers. The ability to make custom spells is awesome, but like JC, it shouldn't be something players are able to do willy nilly.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Will it actually do something for build diversity or will it simply replace the meta?

Silly question as anything new added to the game only shifts/replaces the meta. Again, that's a problem with player mindset of only wanting whatever they calculate to be BIS.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

That issues aside, how could it be implemented?

It was already shown to be a system comprised of 6 new skill lines.

1 skill line for actual spell-Crafting and 5 for the five major schools of magic. Those 5 skill lines tied to the magic schools would be similar to weapon skill lines, but would only be passive skills.

This causes me to think of an understandable reason why Spellcrafting might have been put on hold for so long... that's a lot of skill points needed to make full use of it! Crafting skill lines can have 20+ passives and weapon skill lines usually have 10 passives. ZOS might have felt the game didn't have enough easy-access skill points to support so many new skill lines. But each year, new content adds 20+ new skill points without adding many new ways to spend those points. Surely now ESO can easily support those 6 new skills.

Here are the 20 spellcrafting spells that have been datamined:
Bound Weapon

Burden

Charm

Conjure Dremora Lord

Conjure Familiar

Conjure Flame Atronach

Courage (Conjuration)

Drain Life

Fire Storm

Frenzy

Frostbite

Ice Cloak (Destruction)

Heal Other

Lightning Bolt

Magicka Resistance

Muffle (Illusion)

Oak Flesh

Paralyze

Restore Stamina

Ward Self

[source; also lists how every focus affects each spell, all directly datamined from the spell descriptions.]

It's not a terribly long list but many classic TES spells are there. I'm seeing options for each of my elementalists. I'm seeing some utility spells that would be useful for group content if built with the AOE focus like Magicka Resistance and Restore Stamina. Muffle, if crafted with the AOE focus, sounds fun for Cyrodiil!

Well, thanks. That was very insightful.